Nowhere to hide - the harsh reality

I know we are all "managers" and I hate the fantasy football lads saying "buy this one" or "buy that one", because there are a lot more things involved in a transfer than just will and money. But hell, i cant believe this is the best we can buy for that amount.

To be honest that's as good and fair a point as I've read on the 'price tag' debate Quico. However, the fact remains, whilst a price tag may weigh heavily on a player's mind and therefore may have some impact on performance, it's his ability, or lack of, which ultimately determines success or failure.

If he preforms the price tag becomes irrelevant. We forget then that we could have done better for the money... even if we could have. We stop looking at others with an envious eye. We don't care about his price simply because 'we' are winning but... When your main hope couldn't hit a bull's ass with a spade he's always going to have been a waste of money; be it £10m, £35m or £50m.

As you point out, we can all play fantasy manger with no method of measuring the hypothetical 'if only' and no consequences... just the luxury of being in the position of never being wrong.

With transfers, like everything, you win some, you lose some; there's no magic formula and there's no point dwelling on the ifs and buts.

One final thought tho' - if Kenny had the luxury of time and the ability to introduce just two signings per season; the 'slow burners' and 'flops' may not have been just as noticeable. We, to a man, demanded wholesale changes last Summer... because we needed them. We got them along with the mixed results that could normally be expected with so many transfers - it's just that we got them all at once. 

To be honest that's as good and fair a point as I've read on the 'price tag' debate Quico. However, the fact remains, whilst a price tag may weigh heavily on a player's mind and therefore may have some impact on performance, it's his ability, or lack of, which ultimately determines success or failure.

If he preforms the price tag becomes irrelevant. We forget then that we could have done better for the money... even if we could have. We stop looking at others with an envious eye. We don't care about his price simply because 'we' are winning but... When your main hope couldn't hit a bull's ass with a spade he's always going to have been a waste of money; be it £10m, £35m or £50m.

That is a solid point. And true, since we do notice it only when a player fails to deliver.

   
Players who are not  doing the job they should:
    Carragher - his legs are gone leading to him having to resort to fouling and thereby being directly responsible for a number of goals at the beginning of teh season. Doesnt cross the halfway line offering no attacking threat and causes the whole team to play deeper than we should. Distribution is woeful and his organisational skills appear to unnerve whoever he plays with (apart rom Agger). Was a great defender for us but time catches up with everyone.

    Carroll - Debated to death but the results are plain to see. Has been unlucky with the poor swervice he has received but should be fighting harder. Beacuse he has never really played in a full strength team I stil lthink its too early to pass a definitive judgement but time is running out for him. May still pull it round if he gets the kind of service Gerrard was able to supply in the Newcastle game.

    Kuyt - Age has caught up with him. Normally impeccable workrate has severely dropped off this season. First touch has steadily declined and should only be backup striker in a pinch.

    Downing - Started well but is now hiding on the pitch. Not trying hard enough to make chance sfor the team and offers little in terms of tracking back. As a 'proven premiership' player in his prime has been by far he most disappointing signing of the Summer. A 20 million pound England international with (maybe) 40 caps looks nowhere near as threatening as the likes of Junior Hoilet who must have been rated at about 3.5 million or so in Summer.

    Adam - could potentially be a valuable squad option but is only an acceptable option in centre mid when the rest of the midfield are working for him. Absolute disaster trying to play him deeply in the Lucas role as he is simply not mobile enough as should be evidenced by the fact we are both not providing any cover for our defence nor breaking into the box to shoot on goal.

I can go with that.

Here's an interesting list I saw earlier ;

Top 10 Premier League Transfers

1. Fernando Torres: Liverpool to Chelsea – £50m (2011)
t2. Sergio Aguero: Atletico Madrid to Manchester City – £35m (2011)
t2. Andy Carroll: Newcastle United to Liverpool – £35m (2011)
4. Robinho: Real Madrid to Manchester City – £32.5m (2008)
5. Andriy Shevchenko: AC Milan to Chelsea – £30.8m (2006)
6. Dimitar Berbatov: Tottenham to Manchester United – £30.75m (2008)
7. Rio Ferdinand: Leeds to Manchester United – £29.1m (2002)
8. Juan Sebastian Veron: Lazio to Manchester United – £28.1m (2001)
9. Edin Dzeko: Wolfsburg to Manchester City – £27m (2011)
10. Wayne Rooney: Everton to Manchester United – £25.6m (2004)
Missed the Cut: Samir Nasri: Arsenal to Manchester City – £25m (2011), Juan Mata: Valencia to Chelsea – £23.5m (2011)

Bumped from the top 10:10. Didier Drogba: Marseille to Chelsea – £24m (2004), Michael Essien: Lyon to Chelsea – £24.43m (2005), James Milner: Aston Villa to Manchester City – £24m (2010), David Silva: Valencia to Manchester City – £24m (2010), Yaya Toure: Barcelona to Manchester City – £24m (2010), Darren Bent: Sunderland to Aston Villa – £24m (2011)

What you've gotta ask yourself is when you look down that list...Who is really worth it?..which few have delivered their worth?..
Then you look at what Suarez cost us and how much he delivers...thats the harsh reality !!
The game has changed so much since Trevor Francis(I think?) broke that million pound barrier eh..

From the top 10, Aguero (so far) and Shrek.

Not great is it?
Nice find.

Looks like £24m is the price to aim for, then you get players like Drogba, Essien, Silva and Yaya Toure 

And Suarez

Looks like £24m is the price to aim for, then you get players like Drogba, Essien, Silva and Yaya Toure 

Seems that way...a lot of the African National players seem to have that skill factor along with the physical strength I think you need to succeed in this league..The Spainish and majority of South American lads are very skillful yet not as physical..I mean that Yaya Toure must be 7 ft tall for chris's sake..and he just ploughs his way through like a breeze....I think Drogba has well repaid Chelsea back..
The problems are those periods of the season when you lose the African lads for their ANC and Man city have felt that this year losing their playmaker..as Chelsea have noticed losing Essien..
Then we've got a Glaswegian , a few geordie lads and a scouser , oh and a mad welshman trying to boss the game...ha ha ha..Love it..

The harsh reality is we had to build a squad so that we can build a team around it next season. We have Suarez Gerrard Reina Lucas Agger-Skrtel spine with some weaklings around that can do a job. We will soon buy some stars to make the team a title beater!

From the top 10, Aguero (so far) and Shrek.

Not great is it?
Nice find.

Looks like £24m is the price to aim for, then you get players like Drogba, Essien, Silva and Yaya Toure 

As much as I hate the c**t, Ferdinand was a good buy for the shithawk Scum as well. Ridiculous price at the time, but they've had lots of success since then.

We have badly missed a fit stevie, an injured Lucas and Suarez being banned. I don't believe for one minute that we would be questioning the players if all of these three had played every game.
Saying that i agree with bigmick about the players underperforming.It is a season of head scratching and frustration because we should be doing better.

As much as I hate the c**t, Ferdinand was a good buy for the shithawk Scum as well. Ridiculous price at the time, but they've had lots of success since then.

I know what you mean but I left him out due to the bit in bold. He's been good for them but no world beater so the price they payed (at 2002 prices) was huge.

Great thread.

Tis bin a strange season/last year for the club alright. No doubting some of the signings have not risen to the challenge but as far as questioning KK with more funds I cant believe people are saying that in other threads. Carroll, albeit for crazy money, was a signing most managers would of made. He was a beast at Newcastle and for 10m he would of been a steal but KK's hand was forced and the fee paid was robbery at its best. BUT the money was there to be used and righly or wrongly Carroll in Newcastle form would not be questioned for 30m. It aint working out for the big man though. Adam, likewise, was a bargain in most peoples eyes. Generally his play hasnt been too bad but his tackling and lack of effort sometimes has made him stand out as a fecking liability. Suarez, quality signing and bargain aswell. But a striker is judged on a goal to game ratio and his aint looking to pretty either. Downing, again another player whose stats coupled with an "english player" price tag warranted a 20m spend. Not agressive enough going forward and has lost all his confidence. Had a few of his near misses being converted to goals the chap may have been on double figures. As obvious as it sounds, a confident player is an inform player and I really believe our lads are lacking confidence. Route of all evil in a footballer.

Season on a hole;

I think we have improved and some of the football we played throughout the season has been class but the lack of effort in some matches has overshadowed the good performances. 3 or 4 very poor performances, the rest have been well disciplined games but we havent taken our chances and the knock on effect is that there getting harder to take cause the team lack confidence with every miss. Penos were an obvious example until Gerrard came back.

How do we build on confidence? Hard to imagine a world class footballer, playing for THE best club in the world, getting the best looking women in the world, driving the best carS and lets be honest having the best jobs are LACKING in confidence.... 

As usual a few poor results have the doomsdayers out.
Read a piece in the Sunday times that said "4" is:
a) the number of games in league since Suarez was suspended
b) the number of goals we've scored in those games
c) the number of points we've got out of the 4 games
That's was it said anyway (if I recall)

Up until the Suarez suspension we were only moaning about the lack of goals, we were 'clobbering sides' 1-1, creating buckets of chances but not finishing the jammie gits off.
The sky was not falling, we needed better finishing/shooting. Mabye another striker.    Take a few more chances, and we were in the running.

Since the suspension though, we're not creating chances, we're lookin pretty clueless, and we loose poorly to Bolton. Cue pages of woe.

But, on the one hand, if we had kept Suarez on the pitch and managed to convert a few more chances, we could have been really pushing for top4.
Instead we have people questioning KK, everythings 'unacceptable' and we're facing a 'harsh reality'.

For me, Suarez being out has exposed the fact that we don't have another striker to speak of.
Carroll's form is non-existant, Kuyt is having a very long dip, and Bellers for me is better coming in off the wing.
So that's NO ... NO out and out striker available to KK that is going to stand up front for us, make runs, really stretch defenses and score goals.
That is a pain in the balls for sure, but it does not mean we we're fu**ed. ANY team would struggle if the lads up front are swinging the lead.

And though I'm not saying the midfield have been outstanding, the fact that there's nobody up top scoring, or even looking remotely like scoring, that is bound to make them look bad.
This is the same midfield who didn't look so bad 4 or 5 games back, when we were creating shitloads of chances (when a certain Suarez was making runs)...we looked like were were about to hockey someone and start moving on up...

Were the Carroll of his Newcastle days has gone, sh*te knows. He was knockin defenders over for fun. Scoring goals. Signs for LFC -- 'One haircut for Samson pls'.
Downing and Hendo haven't had the impact you'd like. But they deserve a season at least. Then judge them.
Adam comes in for a lot of stick, but for me he was a squad signing who got a lot of gametime as SG was out. He's had a few bad moments recently, but overall, still OK for squad for me.
Suarez, Enrique, Bellers have done well.

And if we're still in the same boat this time next season, might start looking at KK.
But not before then. Not for me. We ain't Real Madrid. Let's give the man the time he deserves.

Great thread mick and some excellent posts in here over the last day or two and I'm not sure I have much different to add as many points have been well covered so far.

The 'harsh reality' part of the thread title leads me to think that mick, and correct me if I'm wrong mate, thinks we at times think we are better than what we are and have better players than we actually do but I'm still not sure I believe that to be the case even after the disaster that was Bolton away.

I'll discuss what I think on the individuals in a minute but the reality for me is that the team and Kenny are performing in and around what I expected before the season began. It was a massive job in the summer turning what we had left from the end of Rafa's reign and the Hodgson debacle and with so many moves in and out of the club it was always going to be difficult to keep momentum this season especially considering injuries to two key players for most if the season.

Now I some of you might pick up that I expected a challenge for the title this season and you would be correct and I stand by that as I still think that our squad as it stands with every player playing to full potential could have challenged for the top spot but that does not mean I was wrong to think that or even expect it as things don't always go as you would expect or like.

The 'reality' for me is that we are slightly lower in the table than we deserve to be as some of our football, especially earlier in the season has been fantastic and for a bit more luck and more clinical finishing we would have got the results our play deserved. But having said that we are where we are because we didn't get the results so in order for the team to challenge as they should something has to change in that respect as we can't continually look back at what might have been as before we know it another season has passed us by.

On the individual players some of our signings have been more of a success than others. I don't like to say any of them have been a 'bad' signing but some have not justified their place in the team at times and possibly never will.

Enrique and Suarez are obvious good signings and although Luis has not contributed enough goals his all round game and creativity has gave us a different dimension to our play. Jose has been solid for most of the season and LB is not a problem position any more.

Coates has potential but hasn't played anywhere near enough games to make a proper judgement but could be a very good bit of transfer business.

Bellamy has been outstanding and even though I thought it was a great signing has possibly exceeded my expectations and his desire and will to win should be showing the younger players how to go about the game.

Henderson has been bought very much with the future in mind but when he is playing he is still playing on the periphery of games too much and is not expressive and adventurous enough. Will be a very good player but has to justify his place in the team now as I feel Jonjo would offer a bit more at the minute and has never looked over awed as Jordan has for vast parts of the season.

Downing has been a big disappointment especially in the last few months and unlike Henderson is not a young player making his way in the game. He is supposed to be the finished article and is a player with plenty of England caps to his name. Definately a player who is not showing he is worth a place in our side and I fail to find any reasons to excuse his contribution, or lack of, this season. It says it all when we are still talking about the wide areas being a problem in the squad when he was seen as a possible answer.

Adam has been how I expected. I did see it as a good signing although never expected him to play as much but due to injuries he has seen more action than he probably should have. He has been good early on but has been very poor over the last month or so and for me he himself possibly feels the pressure of playing in a much better team and can't quite raise his game.

On Carroll I just can't quite work out why he looks so bad at times as I do think there is a better player there than he has shown but has been mentioned by a few before it is more his apparent attitude to the game which is letting him down as much as his play. If he genuinely is lazy and not trying as he should then I don't expect Kenny to put up with it and this could be one of those signings that just doesn't work out. Really am losing a bit of patience with the lad and it says it all when he still hasn't made his mark with Suarez being suspended.

I still don't believe Kenny made a bad signing in the summer but the reality could be that some of them for whatever reason may not be the 'right' signing.

On the 'Nowhere to hide' part of the title I really do hope Kenny gets the response we all expect after his words on Saturday night and I fully expect any player who doesn't respond in the right way to be treated accordingly. Be it a new signing, an experienced player or a young player they all should be fully aware of what the manager expects.

Andy just needs to cut his hair, and everything will be ok.

Andy just needs to cut his hair, and everything will be ok.

Ah, if only it were so simple....

Ah, if only it were so simple....

What's more simple than siccors!

What's more simple than siccors!

What is siccors? Also, a haircut would help as he would have less on his head and therefore run bit faster with less wind resistance. 

The main problem this season and for a long time is the lack of passion the players show against the so called weaker teams, KK is right when he says we have been unlucky against some teams but generally we cant beat sides who park the bus , we lack creative midfield players ie alonso/garcia against the mancs against chelsea arsenal all the players are up for it., i fully believe we will beat man city and man utd then probably lose or draw against KK is right in bollocking them i hope all the players adam/henderson/downing give us the performance andy carroll sorry got to go

Cut his hair and wear a msk I say

tbh. guys I think a lot of people are way too negative.

Give these guys a chance, we have had a change at board level, a change at management level, and a massive change in playing personel over the past 12 months (no time at all).

Show some decency, stop phoning and moaning, and stop moaning on forums.

Just get behind the fukin team !

We are 90 mis away from Wembley, we are 6 points behind 4th with what 15 games to go, we have a home FA cup tie -v- our big rivals.

Most important for me, is the change of footi style, we have been playing good stuff, apart from bolton away, I don't think we have played bad in any games.

Compared to where we were I will take that, and enjoy being LFC again, with a proper REd at the helm and decent owners who are willing to put some money into the squad & hopefully a new stadium.

The more i think about it the more i think Kenny made those public comments with a clear goal in mind. Majority of his squad and new signings are English and the new guys were all "stars" in the respective clubs before moving to us. This may have been a serious motivator for the likes of Gerrard, Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam and the public scrutiny, which homegrown players dislike, to spur them on and play at a much higher intensity.
If this were directed at players like Torres or even Suarez for example, it may have had an opposite effect and knocked their confidence.

Im actually looking forward to see how the team will react following their "day off" at Bolton.
   

Tough for me to see a problem with Kenny's post Bolton statements. Although that's common place among coaches over here in the states. Many of the best would call out their team after a poor performance. It gives the players notice that they aren't replaceable and it helps send the fans a message that the manager's fed up.

Good on Kenny...he didn't single anyone out (didn't need to, we all knew who sucked) but he got his point across.

Could be worse....Jimmy Johnson, coach of the Dallas Cowboys for 2 of their 3 Super Bowls in the '90's cut a player after a game in which the player made a mistake. Got everyone else's attention, that's for sure.