Joe Allen & Lucas Leiva, will it work?

 For me one of the aspects of the performance which was not overly discussed in the aftermath was the contribution of Lucas. Yes Downing was awful and plenty pointed it out, yes Charlie Adam contributed absolutely nothing, but few seemed willing to look at Lucas. I might be going out on a limb a bit here, but I thought he was poor. His chronic lack of pace was exposed a couple of times, his distrubution wasn´t as good as it normally is and for a holding midfielder, he was much too porous.

 I found myself asking why this was the case (if indeed it was). It could be that he is rusty having just come back from a long termer, and I certainly think this is a factor. It could also be that Joe Allen is inadvertantly stepping on his football boot toes so to speak in that he does much of the same sort of work. Allen gets his foot in, keeps the play ticking over, pings a pass and generally keeps it tidy. FWIW I thought the Welshman was excellent on Saturday and our man of the match by a distance, it was only that we had such an awful end result that his performance was overlooked.

 Given though that neither Lucas nor Allen will either score goals or cause goals to be scored (unless Allen devlops, I think it is unlikely at this stage that Lucas will add this to his game) can we afford them both in central midfield? To answer my own question, I think we probably can as long as they endeavour to keep it much tighter than they did on Saturday. Having two holding midfielders and getting beat 3-0 is nothing to be proud of. Equally, it is clear to me that we cannot afford any passengers in the other 4 non-defensive players if we are to go with the Lucas/Allen axis. Clearly Downing is a dummy, but Borini and Gerrard will have to contribute more than they did on Saturday also.

 Licas though must do a lot better. Hopefully, he will. 

It was mainly coz gerrard had an awful game. At swansea last season, allen and britton got excellent movement  ahead of them by sigurdsson, and he flourished there. Once gerrard gets back his rhythm, things will improve.

I stuck this in the Joe Allen thread which agrees with much of what you say Mick :-

I don't think the partnership with Lucas worked that well to be honest, but it was their first game together, and I am sure they will soon build a better understanding.

Much better player than I gave him credit for and I am sure there is much more to come. Don't see him getting many assists this season, but he can and did play a couple of good forward passes as well as a reasonable chip/cross that Carroll couldn't quite get on to. Seems to have two good feet and the ability to make quick accurate passes that Adam might learn from.

Considering how poorly Gerrard played and that Lucas just wasn't match fit (imo) I thought Allen did very well. Maybe Lucas should sit a little deeper (like last season) as he didn't look as comfortable coming forward and I thought both Allen and Lucas were caught out forward a few times.   

Got to remember that he's still recovering from a serious injury, but yeah he was poor the other day, but there were only Allen and Johnson and who weren't poor.

Interesting point though.

I always hoped that Lucas would come back into the team the as good as he was when he left it, as there's no guarantee he will after an injury like that.

Good opening post mate, but I do disagree a bit.

1) Lucas is back from injury early so he doesn't have the legs yet and is probably still a bit tentative as to not re-injury his knee. The fact he's back already and starting is risky/remarkable. He's always said it's going to take him some time to get fully back into the game. Performances like Saturday are to be expected.

2) I would agree that neither Allen nor Lucas are goal scorers, but their presence should allow Gerrard to be played very high up the pitch, as well as enabling the full-backs to push up. We'd essentially have a front four with Gerrard up there and 2 full-backs playing more like wingers than traditional defenders. Obviously, things go to hell when Gerrard has a stinker and Kelly (in lieu of Johnson on the right) is playing a type of position he's not really comfortable with and doesn't have the skill set for (in my opinion).

3) Saying we lost 3-0 with two holding midfielders is a bit of a misnomer. The first goal came from a corner that was headed out of the box and was a sick finish by Gera. The second goal was a penalty. The third goal was from a corner. While 2 holding mids were out there, it wasn't like the Albion goals from penetrating runs or open play.

4) Borini should never be asked to play LW again. He doesn't have the attributes for it. Similarly, I'd rather see Suarez on the right, Borini in the middle, and someone else at LW because Downing isn't going to cut it.

5) I think the partnership will be ok. Once Allen started spreading play around, things started looking better. It will require Stevie to be sharp, however.

Hmm, he wasnt up to his best on saturday like thats for sure, did look a little off pace but hopefully this is mainly due to being out for the last of half of last season, hopefully in a few games we will be up to scratch. I think really Gerrard and Downing were shocking on saturday, they looked soo weak on the ball and unconfident, Gerrard misplaced many simple passes which sometimes cost us dearly. Allen was actually bossing the midfield for us, which was good considering his first game etc. It will take time for all this to gel so just got to keep faith, no doubt we all know what Lucas is capable of, and everyone has a bad day sometime or another.

Lucas will take time to get himself back to pre injury levels.
Without Sahin we have no cover for Lucas.

Don't worry about the Lucas Allen partnership.
Lucas is far from fit. The fact we are playing him straight from
the off shows me a massive weak point in our squad.

No goal scorer and no second quality DM.
Sahin would appear to be the only option.

I don't think it worked well for a first game either, but I think it totally can and probably will work out well. They're both intelligent footballers who are actually a bit different in how they play. Allen isn't exactly a defensive midfielder - although he surely is good on the defensive side of the game -, I see him more as a connecting link between defense and attack. He won't get himself inside the box very often but he'll participate in attacks from behind. The way I see it, I expect Lucas to stay deeper and cover for the fullbacks when they go forward, potentially forming a kind of formation with 3 at the back and offensive wing-backs, like Barcelona does with Busquets dropping deep to let Alves and Abidal go forward. I understand the question posed in this thread but I think it is trying to see too much from too little, it was just one game.

However... it is undeniable that we do not have enough goal threat in our side. I love Allen as a player but he won't score many, nor will Lucas. Gerrard has been poor for a long time now, perhaps due to injuries having such a disruptive effect on his game, but we can't count too much on him either. We desperately need not only a goalscorer upfront, but also more players capable of putting the ball on the net and take the burden off Suarez' shoulders, who at the moment is responsible for doing all the work for himself...

I think it's far too early to tell whether this 'partnership' will work. Allen had never played for us before Saturday so he needs a little while to get into the groove. Lucas is still rusty and is going to take weeks to get back into any sort of rhythm he had before his injury.

For me though, I can't justify us having two deep midfielders if the forward players aren't pulling their weight. I think you invite too much pressure just outside the oppo's centre circle which can strangle the likes of Downing, Borini, Suarez and Gerrard, if you have them (Lucas and Allen) both stuck in our half. We might get away with it in the cups but I doubt (at this present moment in time) that we'd get away with it in the league. One or both have to penetrate the oppositions half for me.

It's going to be really interesting to see how this pans out over the season.

I'd prefer the Adam-Lucas partnership rather than Allen-Lucas. I like Adam's hollywood passes indeed; he knows how to unlock defenses and can score more often. I'd like to see a trio of:
 Shelvey         Allen
            Lucas
where Allen and Shelvey would share there duties. But at the moment, I personnally prefer

        Gerrard
Adam             Lucas

It seems more threatening to me

Hopefully it develops more into an Alonso/Mascherano partnership than Mascherano/Lucas.

I'd imagine it should do as Allen is better on the ball than Mascherano (not as good as Xabi obviously), whether it develops into the same level of quality will only be answered with time.

I thought Lucas was awful on Saturday and I didn't think Allen was spectacular either. But we're gonna have to give it time to see if it can develop. Less than 90 minutes of playing together isn't anywhere near enough time to see if it'll work.

Have a better idea come Christmas time - injuries permitting of course.

I think it's far too early to tell whether this 'partnership' will work. Allen had never played for us before Saturday so he needs a little while to get into the groove. Lucas is still rusty and is going to take weeks to get back into any sort of rhythm he had before his injury.

For me though, I can't justify us having two deep midfielders if the forward players aren't pulling their weight. I think you invite too much pressure just outside the oppo's centre circle which can strangle the likes of Downing, Borini, Suarez and Gerrard, if you have them (Lucas and Allen) both stuck in our half. We might get away with it in the cups but I doubt (at this present moment in time) that we'd get away with it in the league. One or both have to penetrate the oppositions half for me.

It's going to be really interesting to see how this pans out over the season.

I agree mate, the last thing we need is a repetition of the Lucas/ Mascherano partnership in Rafa's last season in which we sat so deep that the forwards became isolated.

Its only their first game together - it was Lucas's first prem game since Nov 2011 after a serious injury and it was Allens first game for us. I think this is very premature - both are very good players who will work together. Just as its far too early to judge the manager its far too early to judge Lucas and Allen as a partnership.

Pretty crazy to be questioning the partnership at this point. Lucas hasn't played in the league since November and it was Allen's first game.

Wait a few months then we can discuss this.

Personally think they will compliment each other massively and it will be a relief for Lucas to have someone beside him who he doesn't carry in work-load terms or ability terms. Honestly think Allen will prove a huge signing for us but we need an attacking midfielder who can carry the creativity part more than how Gerrard is performing. These 2 I can personally rely upon.

In my humble opinion, yes it will work, but, Lucas needs a few more games to get back to his previous level and of course Allen is new to his team mates. This makes the first few games very difficult for us and I think away from home they will need an extra body in there for now, which means tweeking the formation a little, i.e. 4-4-2

                   Shelvey    Lucas  Gerrard   Allen
                   
                            Suarez     ?

Seeing as though we are not getting behind defences on the wing it doesn't matter that there is no recognised winger, as Shelvey and Gerrard as well as breaking forward can whip crosses in without beating the full back. We will get stronger as the season progresses and I have faith that the gaffer will sort it out. maybe 3 at the back for home games. The captain will be the first to admit that he let his team mates down a bit in the middle of the park and he can only play better.

4-4-2 with 4 CM's ?

I think really Gerrard and Downing were shocking on saturday, they looked soo weak on the ball and unconfident, Gerrard misplaced many simple passes which sometimes cost us dearly

I think this is the reason Allen and Lucas werent up to much, Gerrard was fcking awful.

It's early doors yet so I'm a bit reticent to say this but both players are very comfortable with the short, tippy-tappy, five yard, not really going anywhere, passing game; Stevie appears less enamoured. It seems (in my opinion) to go against all his instincts.  I honestly believe he feels somewhat stifled but he's a class act and I'm sure he'll adapt quick enough.

What I'm not so sure about is if tippy-tappy will be utilising his best traits even if he adapts? 

I guess if "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." it won't really matter.

Allen is more suited to our new possession style than Lucas, Allen just has excellent playmaking skills. But I'm not concerned about Lucas at all, he just needs a bunch of games. Personally I'm more concerned about Gerrard.

yes Charlie Adam contributed absolutely nothing

Loved this bit!

I found myself asking why this was the case (if indeed it was). It could be that he is rusty having just come back from a long termer, and I certainly think this is a factor. It could also be that Joe Allen is inadvertantly stepping on his football boot toes so to speak in that he does much of the same sort of work.

I'd put it down to rust and fitness mate. It was a serious injury and he is apparently a month or so ahread of where he should have been so I tihnk it'll be another 5-6 games before we can expect Lucas to be back to his previous best. He looks a little flat footed and a bit slow to change direction at the moment but such is his importance that the manager will play him back to fitness. As for Allen stepping on his toes, I don't think so. Allen was further forward (which is good because you don't want your CMs playing flat) much of the time and (as you say) had an excellent debut.

and for those posters questioning the depth of our CMs it's important to keep an eye on how high our FBs are playing. Having missed the game at the weekend I watched most of it today and really it was so I could see how Allen got on and also to get a good look at the shape of the team and the FBs were playing much the same way as your wing-backs would in a 3-5-2.

It's early doors yet so I'm a bit reticent to say this but both players are very comfortable with the short, tippy-tappy, five yard, not really going anywhere, passing game; Stevie appears less enamoured. It seems (in my opinion) to go against all his instincts.  I honestly believe he feels somewhat stifled but he's a class act and I'm sure he'll adapt quick enough.

What I'm not so sure about is if tippy-tappy will be utilising his best traits even if he adapts? 

I guess if "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." it won't really matter.

Lucas is a far far better footballer than he is given credit for he reads the game well.
Stevie has always been a problem he has played ,fullback.central midfield,right wing,second striker its a wonder he hasnt had a spell in goal.
Given the difficulties we have with width I would play him out wide,didnt he have his best goal scoring season out wide?.
Lucas is still rusty and it was Allen's first game so they will improve massively over the season.

I think it's a daft question to ask after Allen signing then going straight off to play for Wales, plus Lucas coming back from a long term injury.
They had what, a couple of days training together?

It'll work once they stop running into each others spaces. On numerous occasions they were both looking round to find their midfield partner.

It's all just a matter of them training together for a while.

I also didn't think Lucas played too badly all things considered, although Allen was better.

Lucas is a far far better footballer than he is given credit for he reads the game well.
Stevie has always been a problem he has played ,fullback.central midfield,right wing,second striker its a wonder he hasnt had a spell in goal.
Given the difficulties we have with width I would play him out wide,didnt he have his best goal scoring season out wide?.
Lucas is still rusty and it was Allen's first game so they will improve massively over the season.

Agree walton that Lucas is a much smarter footballer than many give him credit for.

As for Stevie playing on the right, it's suggested a lot, but I'm not sure he could ever replicate that season he had there. Age and a few injuries might mean he simply can't play out there anymore on a regular basis. Could do it the odd game here and there though.