Change of system

I have more of an issue with him shop windowing Cole and Downing than I do the system.
The only flaw with the system is the personnel implementing it.
As much as I want to believe a change of system would tighten things up I can't.
Individual errors cost us more than the system.

Individual errors can be brought about by the system mate.

Rodgers wants the players to be comfortable with the ball whilst under pressure.

Truth be told majority of our players are not that good in posession under pressure, we don't have an Xavi's, Iniesta's, Fabregas's, Messi's etc here.

A lot of our play breaks down in the final third, resulting in a counter attacking goal.
Put better quality in that area and we won't conceed as much either.
Lucas isn't up to speed yet. Neither is Sahin, given he had a long injury spell prior to joining us.

When it comes to the system, I would say that, right now, it doesn't get the best out of Gerrard.
That said, Suarez works well in it and should be the focal point.

For me the fact that we've conceded the same amount of goals (23) as we've scored (23) in 17 games, highlights that we've got problems at both ends of the pitch.

That for me shows why the system is not working, if you're conceeding as many as your scoring, then you need to adopt a system that see's you tighten up at the back.

you are right but it's a balancing act. Also, for me, BR has tried to address it. Our midfield 3 was very much a 1 and two earlier in the season and we were shipping goals. Rodgers changed it up (partly because Lucas got injured) to a 2 and 1 and things tightened up at the back. Only problem being were weren't scoring at the other end.

The biggest issue for me are the wide players and the lack of a quality alternative to Suarez. I'd stay with the system and add quality in the window. Whether BR gets the nesessary funds is another question.

i agree with racer.  i don't get to too many games, so listen on the radio, and am struck by the number of goals clearly being conceded against the run of play and conceded on the counter. its strikes me that if we can pick up a couple of good strikers in january our moves in the final third might be broken down less often - who knows we might even start to score some more goals - we can only improve.  we will be weak for some time, maybe something can be done in january to sort it but for the moment - sorry, but that's a fact.

No one expected Rodgers to mount a title challenge this season but what we should expect is to match last seasons effort.

We also expected to break back into the top 4 slot after all that was the very reason why Kenny was sacked,we needed fresh ideas according to some.

2011-2012   :  A Trophy and a league position of 8th   four points behind the Bitters. 52 points.

2010-2011   : 6th position 58 points two points in front of the Bitters.

I'll even split the difference as a first season concession. Hows  about a Rafa special 7th again  in season one ?


That will have been three seasons of stagnation.

I've been stating how vulnerable we are to the counter attack and that's a problem with the system in my opinion.

2011-2012   :  A Trophy and a league position of 8th   four points behind the Bitters. 52 points.

2010-2011   : 6th position 58 points two points in front of the Bitters.

I'll even split the difference as a first season concession. Hows  about a Rafa special 7th again  in season one ?


That will have been three seasons of stagnation.

You do know we nearly went bust during that time, don't you?  We're lucky to be here at all!

I know it's disapointing, but the off the field activities with H&G have to be considered. We're rebuilding and BR is doing it with a couple of class players and a lot of kids.

I've been stating how vulnerable we are to the counter attack and that's a problem with the system in my opinion.

Lucas and Allen. Lucas is not that fit and Allen has been poor recently. And Gerrard won't defend.

A lot of over reaction here. Predictably.

So Rodgers must change the system to get the most out of his squad seems to be the general consensus. That's ridiculous. Why change the system, and then when he gets new players, change it to the way he wants it. This creates inconsistency and will mean the players Rodgers keeps will have to learn the new system from scratch.

The system works, we need to give it time and implement it from the grass roots. People here need to chill out. Its not gonna take a season.

Rodgers has brought in 4 players since he's been here. All kids. Allen 24, Borini 22, Yesil 18 and Assaidi 22. This isn't close to his squad. Talk to me again, when he's brought in a minimum of 11 players and you'll hear all these posters claiming how the all believed in the system way back when. Bollocks to all these haters. Cheer the team and keep yer moaning fer yer missus

The answer to both is ' yes '.
When he took the job and since , Brendan has taken great pains to tell everyone that with this group of players it would take some time before we were ready to challenge for Champions League again. How does this help players mental attitude.  He should sit down and read what Shanks did , he told mediocre payers that they were World beaters , the opposition were rubbish and Liverpool Football Club were the greatest team on the planet.
Some times you just need to big them up , give them the confidence  to do things they did not believe they could. They may be on fabulous salaries but confidence needs to be built.
Brendan should give it a try.

I think so Redangel mate.
Re BR's policy to motivate the players to try their best for the team I would say I'm not so confident. Tell everyone here it's one thing I always ask myself for about ten years is why SAF continually bring success to his team ManUtd. I'm very doubt he has superior squad to his opponents in EPL and Europe. SAF of ManUtd as a man is who I will less like on this planet but his football management ability forced me to admit he's the one I'm admire. I'd conclude here that BR's psychology may be good in his opinion but I want to see our manager do the Shankly's way rather than the like of Sterling's 'steady' incident.
And as I'm not sure about what I see but believe someone already heard about the three envelops BR shown to the players and say something like 'inside were the names of three players who will 'let us down this year', I don't like that way of management, I don't believe it can bring positive thing to the team.

I think so Redangel mate.
Re BR's policy to motivate the players to try their best for the team I would say I'm not so confident. Tell everyone here it's one thing I always ask myself for about ten years is why SAF continually bring success to his team ManUtd. I'm very doubt he has superior squad to his opponents in EPL and Europe. SAF of ManUtd as a man is who I will less like on this planet but his football management ability forced me to admit he's the one I'm admire. I'd conclude here that BR's psychology may be good in his opinion but I want to see our manager do the Shankly's way rather than the like of Sterling's 'steady' incident.
And as I'm not sure about what I see but believe someone already heard about the three envelops BR shown to the players and say something like 'inside were the names of three players who will 'let us down this year', I don't like that way of management, I don't believe it can bring positive thing to the team.

Allen,Borini and sahin? 

you need a strong personality to manage top class players, thats proven in all the current top teams, too nice and too forgiving just doesnt cut it with me, we have the players and the squad to be doing far better than we are.

Skol red its rather ironic you admire the drunken old soak or SAF as you like to call him, as the drunken old soak used the very same trick regarding the envelopes and that's where Rodgers took the idea from.

You watch all the patience fly out of the kitchen window (along with the sink, the cooker and the all the cutlery) if we lose our next two and are bottom of the league!

Our expectations of our club ? : everyone is going to feel that .

You do know we nearly went bust during that time, don't you?  We're lucky to be here at all!
I know it's disapointing, but the off the field activities with H&G have to be considered. We're rebuilding and BR is doing it with a couple of class players and a lot of kids.

Perhaps I should have given the annual league positions back to the early nineties from the start of the Premier League.

 There's some good posts in this thread from both sides of the fence. I do wish the people who criticise the manager at every opportunity though would be a little more open about their true feelings. Some of them didn't want him to be the manager and don't want him to be the manager, that much is obvious. It seems a little daft to me though to keep saying "I support the manager" while imploring him to play a system which is foreign to the one we brought him in for, and while slagging off his signings and bemoaning the ones he is rumoured to be thinking about making. If that's support, I wouldn't like to see them turn on him. Given how he's done so far in the league however, I can understand and sympathise with their point of view although I don't agree with it. Equally S@ints post yesterday in which he said that we would have had more points if either Rafa or Kenny were still in charge set me thinking, and in all probablity it's hard to argue with him.

 So if we look at the Rafa/Kenny angle I think most everyone would accept that Rafa would be playing more conservatively than our current manager and we would be harder to beat. Even as not Rafas biggest fan I think that much is obvious and pointless denying. Equally, under Kenny we would have signed Diame (that now looks like a big miss) and we would have been a powerful English style team, no doubt with Carroll up top. I don't know where we would have been, but we'd have been higher than 12th under either manager. I actually DO support Brendan and am glad he is our manager, but it is pointless denying the glaringly obvious.

 So we are experiencing some pain which is probably avoidable in the short term, is it worth it? My feeling is that it is, yes. People have said that at the very least Brendan should be expected to match last seasons efforts, and my guess is he probably will. It isn't though a tactical breakdown which caused us to lose against Villa, it's quite simply that at crucial moments some of our players didn't do their jobs well enough. They must do better, the manager must do better, but my guess/belief is they will.

 As a footnote I can't help thinking that our much vaunted defensive midfielder is escaping a little lightly on the criticism front. We've conceded 23 goals in 17 matches which is way too high. Of those 23 matches, Lucas has played in the 3-0 loss at West Brom, the 3-2 win at West Ham and the 3-1 home defeat against Villa as well as another game we won 1-0 (I'm not counting Man City as he came off before any goals went in at either end I think). So by reckoning (which is probably wrong admittedly) we've conceded 8 goals in the 4 matches he's played, and 15 in the 13 matches he hasn't. "Freeing up" other players is all very well, but defensive midfielders must defend, otherwise what's the point of them?

Mick - what worries me is how open we have looked all season with or without Lucas.

Mick - what worries me is how open we have looked all season with or without Lucas.

its the formation mate i think, we aint barcelona, unless you have the right players to play that formation it wont work.

As a footnote I can't help thinking that our much vaunted defensive midfielder is escaping a little lightly on the criticism front. We've conceded 23 goals in 17 matches which is way too high. Of those 23 matches, Lucas has played in the 3-0 loss at West Brom, the 3-2 win at West Ham and the 3-1 home defeat against Villa as well as another game we won 1-0 (I'm not counting Man City as he came off before any goals went in at either end I think). So by reckoning (which is probably wrong admittedly) we've conceded 8 goals in the 4 matches he's played, and 15 in the 13 matches he hasn't. "Freeing up" other players is all very well, but defensive midfielders must defend, otherwise what's the point of them?

Without a doubt, Lucas looked well short of sharpness (as you'd expect) at the start of the season and i'd expect it to take him another 6 weeks to get near to the imperious form he showed for the previous 2 years prior to the first injury. That's why the idea of him sitting and the other Cms bombing on doesn't quite work as yet. Of course if we had more quality in wide areas we might not need them to get forward so far. Solve the wide areas and a chang-up to Suarez and we'll be in much better shape imo.

If Brendan thinks he is coaching us to play like Barca, he needs to have another look at how they play.

Last time I watched them, they don't play in the middle of the park round the centre circle like we've been doing, they camp on the edge of the opposition 18yard box.  They hunt in packs, usually 3 at a time, to win the ball back before the opposition can clear it and if they do clear it it's usually a hoof up field that comes straight back to the edge of their area again.

They invariably have 6, 7 even 8 players in camera shot when they press or have the ball and they're all buzzing round like wasps round a jam jar.  It's mesmerising to watch them play.

I know their quality is on another level to our players and yes our league is a lot more physical than la liga but my point is, if that's how Brendan is supposed to have us playing, why the f**k are we pi**ing around on the half way line, with one or two players isolated up top.

Didn't Brendan say at the start of the season that every player should be aiming to win the ball back within 6 seconds of losing it, that seems to have fallen by the wayside too.  I just don't see how things are going to improve if we keep persisting with how we are playing.

I do wish the people who criticise the manager at every opportunity though would be a little more open about their true feelings. Some of them didn't want him to be the manager and don't want him to be the manager, that much is obvious. It seems a little daft to me though to keep saying "I support the manager" while imploring him to play a system which is foreign to the one we brought him in for, and while slagging off his signings and bemoaning the ones he is rumoured to be thinking about making. If that's support, I wouldn't like to see them turn on him.

Definitely agree with this part.

I don't much of a problem with the system in general or the team selections but I do feel that the manager isn't getting the very best out of the current squad for whatever reason.

Mick you can support the manager and be critical of him at the same time.

Regarding Rafa, Rafa won't be coming here any time soon and I accept that, so there's no point banging on about I'd prefer Rafa over Rodgers as I know its not going to happen.

If I thought Rafa was a reality then I'd agree with you that I'd prefer him but he's not a reality and I'm not going to piss in the wind on that score.

Now this is the most important part of what I've got to say so digest it.

I want Rodgers to remain at the club as I do admire his philosophy and his system in the long term (when he gets the players in to see it function as he and us alike envisage it).

My problem solely lies with the system at this current time as without the players in key positions, it won't work and it hasn't worked at its full potential all season.

By being pretty much rigid to the system and the philosophy has been of detriment to the club and cost us points.

This system has seen us concede exactly the same amount of goals as we have scored, which highlights the problem more than anything else.

Now we all accept were lacking goals in the squad.

Correct ?

So by virtue of having no real goal threat apart from the Suarez and the occasional collectors item from the rest of the squad, then you'd hope the manager would concentrate on the foundations of a strong defense.

I don't believe in the short term pain for long term gain that some seem to bandle about and neither will players that want to play champions league football and if we are to progress these are the type of players we need to be attracting.

Now some will argue we've still got a chance of top 4 if the right signing are made in January and I'd pretty much agree, but this is not by virtue of Rodgers tactics, its by the virtue of the inconsitency of Arsenal, Spuds, Chavski and what I mean by that is, if any of the latter had performed as they had in the last few seasons, top 4 would be nothing but a pipe dream.

Now If Rodgers had went for a gradual evolution of his tactics and employed a system that was a better fit to our current bunch, given the inconsistencies of thos above, we possibly could have been sat in the top 4 now.

Now I'm not saying we would have been, but Imagine a scenario, where we played 4-2-3-1 as an example. The two central midfielders were told to sit and protect the back 4 at all costs and the attacking 4 were left to the damage up top do you think we'd have lost so many goals and dropped so many points ?

A lot of the problems we've got with the system at the moment is the midfield and full backs are pushing right up on the opposition and its only taking one quick pass from the opposition to put an attacker through on goal.

Now if we had two holding midfielders sat in and around the half way line moving from left to right they would be cutting out the angles for these types of passes and possibly stop the forwards getting a run on our defenders with their backs to the goals.