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      Coherence... please?

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      Diego LFC
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      Coherence... please?
      Nov 16, 2012 05:54:56 am
      2011-12 was a bitter sweet season, and so were the discussions on this forum. However, with all the differences of opinions here, it's safe to say the vast majority still wanted King Kenny to stay at the club for another year.

      But he didn't. And then people started to get really angry with the owners and the choices they made.

      Brendan Rodgers is one of their choices.

      He's had a difficult start to his career with only 12 points from 11 games.

      Last season, a lot of people seemingly didn't care about 8th being our worst league finish in decades, and they never took seriously the stats that said that at some point we had our worst run of form since the 50's. So isn't it funny to see the same people getting all worked up on how this season's is our worst start to a league campaign since... since... (I don't remember)?

      Yes, it is!

      After all, how is that even fair to judge a manager after only 12 games? If it supposedly wasn't fair to judge the previous manager on 1 year and a half, then please let's just have a little more coherence with the new one.

      What does it matter our number of points in November, really? Absolutely nothing. It's the final position that matters and we're still very far from it. Last season we had an even worst league run over 12 games. And in the end, it just didn't matter one little bit when it happened - in the start, in the middle or in the end of the season. Don't you remember... this?

      0-0 Spurs @ Anfield
      1-2 Man Utd @ Old Trafford
      1-2 Arsenal @ Anfield
      0-1 Sunderland @ Stadium of Light
      3-0 Everton @ Anfield
      2-3 QPR @ Loftus Road
      1-2 Wigan @ Anfield
      0-2 Newcastle @ St James Park
      1-1 Aston Villa @ Anfield
      3-2 Blackburn @ Ewood Park
      0-1 WBA @ Anfield

      What's that? 8 points from 11 games (6 of whom were at home), if my math is right.

      That is not to mention the difference in the amount of money each manager had to spend, and the fact that this season, we had the most difficult schedule of the whole league in the first games of the season. All of that with a new manager trying to change things at the club.


      Don't get me wrong - I think Kenny deserved more time and I agree there are reasons to be angry with the owners. But if you think 1 year and half isn't time enough to judge a manager that spent quite a lot of money, then don't get all stupid after 12 F***ing games with the new one who's seen more players going than coming.

      And most of all I hope you don't come back here in the future to lecture people about your understanding of "the Liverpool way".
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #1: Nov 16, 2012 07:26:22 am
      Superb post - a lot of slaps of reality in there
      brezipool
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #2: Nov 16, 2012 07:31:36 am
      Yip, there are some fans who just need to step back and realize it wont happen over night, we have not won the league for 22 years, we aint gonna win it any time soon, we are back to where we were when rafa took over IMO, and he had a 5 year plan that was going well till the first yanks took over, look how bad that ended.

      Kenny did a great job getting the heart back after the old barn owl & hicks n co bled us dry and starved us of decent footi.

      Kenny won us a cup and got to the FA cup final and got us Europa football, but that was not enough for the new owners, which in a way shows how ambitious they are now.

      So lets get behind Brendan and the team, they are actually looking good, the young guys are coming through, suarez is on fire. Just watch if we put 3 wins together in the league we will be near the top 4, the leaue is very tight. it aint all that bad. #ynwa
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #3: Nov 16, 2012 08:16:50 am
      Good post Diego, nice peice of reality..

      I promised myself im not going to get involved in talk regarding the owners now until after the January window because that is their next chance to move the club forward and as we are still 6 week ahead of that time its time to let actions speak rather than re hash old debates..
      So i guess this is my last chance to speak about them for 6 weeks or so.. I have criticised them for things they have gotten wrong in my opinion and rightly so.. I have also given them credit for things they have gotten right and rightly so..  But whilst we are talking realism i have seen over the last few days people saying that if they sold Suarez (Wont happen in January) that they will be in for a worse ride than the previous owners... Eh? Look they were bleeding the club dry and started the decline to what we are seeing now.. These whilst not perfect arent in the same boat, and whomever they decide to sell would at the end of the day be run through the management team.. Kenny and Comolli with Torres.. Brendan with Suarez. Brendan has stated he wont entertain offers. Case closed for now.
      But people need to realise that there would be nothing we could do anyway.. Look at the Glazer's, pissing hated by the most part of UTD fans.. But where are they now? Have they forced them out with that pathetic Norwich city scarf thing? No.. Liverpool football got rid of the last owners because the banks told them so, they gave them no choice.. They dug their heels in against fans and it was the banks who got them out..
      Owners dont care if they arte unpoplar, they will sell on their terms.. It may make us feel better to rant but its just hot air and a means to get it off our chest.. Nothing can be done.

      We need to just hope they do move us forward, if not then eventually they will probably sell up anyway. We are secure as a club we need to just hope that their plan does indeed move us in the right direction starting January.

      Thats me out until Febuary on the owners.

      In terms of your post Diego, its a good one no doubt but... Certainly from my point of view anyway, i felt it was wrong sacking Kenny, i did and i do.. That doesnt mean im not fully behind Brendan.. I am.. I dont think ive read anywhere at all anyone even mentioning wanting Brendan out? Ive missed it if so.. There may have been the odd tongue in cheek post regarding last season to this.. And judging both the same..? But id think and hope 100% of fans are behind Brendan.. Im sure they are.
      I am and he will always get my support.. He needs the full term of his contract to build something, ive said before and ill say again that we will get nowhere by sacking managers every season or 18 months.. Not with how we are doing it especially.. If we are doing it on a tighter bidget then the manager needs to plan for the next 4 windows, not just one and get instant success.
      How i mean is this..

      If Brendan gets 3 players this past summer.. (Borini, Allen, Assaidi) Plus one on loan.. Then thats not going to going to instantly solve our squad, if he knows he has say 30 million net per summer then he needs to be looking at the next 2 windows to bring in his type of players already.. To fit his ethos..
      What we cant do even if we finish 8th this season is sack Brendan, a new manager comes in and doesnt fancy Allen, Assaidi and Borini and the process starts again.. and again... and again.. We as in the fans and the board need to show some balls and stick with the plan.. Or we will never move forward.. Wasting money that could be spent in the market on manager pay offs..

      My view on kenny is he should have been given longer, take away that its Kenny, i mean for the reason above.. The fact that its Kenny sticks in my throat and makes it harder to let go though ill admit because its Kenny..


      But thats being said im going to stay away from Kenny talk as we need to get behind the manager now and i dont want people to be forced away from the site by not wanting to read those debates all the time...

      Kenny i love you boss... Ill always respect you and you will always be my football hero..


      The sentiment is right though, lets all move on, lets debate the here and now.. Lets hope we bring in a couple of players in january...


      Walk on
      crouchinho
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #4: Nov 16, 2012 08:18:54 am
      Thank you!

      Well said bud.
      MIRO
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #5: Nov 16, 2012 08:32:47 am
      Whether the word coherence is the right one ...........

      Much of what you say makes perfect sense.

      We are not exactly at a good point in the cycle of development and if we wernt good for the last two years with splashing the cash then we aint going to be in Dreamland any time soon.

      Of course being debt free is good. Very good. Not just for us and hopeful transfer money but for the owners business.

      Redeveloping Anfield probably is the most cost efficient option ( Ayres Quote : Why pay 3 to 400 million just for 20,000 more seats ?)
      However dropping that out in a very big softening up message on the last edition of " Being Liverpool " giving the Fenway/Anfield love thing ...broadcast a couple of nights before the Official Announcement ...meant that the decision had been made way back at the latest earlier in the year.
      You could see through that one.
      Not even subtle.

      Not buying just ONE proven striker FFS  during the whole of the Summer Transfer Window smacked of accounting practice.
      Yes.
      They justified the new contracts " Hey Its just like a new signing isnt it"  but no big money was spent.

      We are told that January will be a great month ...... but even Kenny said that you can't get the players you perhaps want because any one good will be in the CL and tied for that.

      It is the hoof in mouths by the club that are difficult to comprehend.

      More than anything it is the fact that along the other end of the East Lancs another club sit a top the table. Again.
      They went about their business clinically to solve a goalscoring problem with RVP and however unpalatable it may be to us all they seem able with sickening continuity not to shoot themselves whilst keeping their teams in transition and successful.
      I never thought I would say that.

      They have debt. A lot of but they have reduced it significantly.
      Look at their income streams from their recently published accounts. We are just nowhere near ....at the moment.

      They took our mantle with league titles (whilst we slept on our laurels)    ... but not the rest.
      We want it back and we have the capability now ...over say a Rafa style 5 year plan ...to get it back.

      Allowances are made for FSG to make it up as they go along but they have been in place for two years now.
      Yes the league has changed with City and the Chav's deep pockets but that will iron itself out with Fair Play Rules.

      At the moment we know there is "transition" which is basically a cop out word.

      However.
      This is a democratic open forum and if we ain't happy then we ain't happy and have the inalienable right to say it .... as well as what we think it will take to put right.

      Get behind the manager and get behind the team.
      That is a given for Liverpool Football Club.

      At the moment it doesn't feel like Liverpool Football Club.
      The soul is behind a shadow and the Boot Room has gone for a walk.

      As my footer says.
      If it wasn't for one Liverpool player ...the only really successful purchase in the last couple of years ...we would be propping up the rest of the Premier League in 20th position.

      That is scary.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #6: Nov 16, 2012 09:01:58 am
      In terms of your post Diego, its a good one no doubt but... Certainly from my point of view anyway, i felt it was wrong sacking Kenny, i did and i do.. That doesnt mean im not fully behind Brendan.. I am.. I dont think ive read anywhere at all anyone even mentioning wanting Brendan out? Ive missed it if so

      You know what?... I haven't seen any posts calling for Brendan's head either (I may have missed them tho') but I do like the call for consistency [Coherence] of thought.

      Just like last season; our manager has tried to assimilate a group of "new" players into a team and stamp his "brand" of football. For Sterling, Suso, Borini, Allen and Sahin read; Carroll, Adam, Henderson and Downing.

      Just like last season; our manager has stuck with those "new" players irrespective of results. Probably because, like last season, our manager has a belief in what he's doing.

      Just like last season; our manager has witnessed his team "dominate" games without the points which maybe should have come with such "dominance". For Skrtle's back-pass (City) and Luis "goal" against the blueshite [4 more points right there] read; woodwork, missed penalties and MoTM, after MoTM displays from visiting goalies.

      Just like last season; the mitigating circumstances are there for all to see.


      For those reasons I am more than happy to afford Brendan the same understanding and tolerance as I showed Kenny.

      However, my understanding (of mitigating circumstances) and tolerance means F**k all: I don't hire and (more importantly) fire managers. What is needed is "understanding and tolerance" from those who do.

      Obviously such "understanding and tolerance" (this season), from FSG, whilst it would not be, in any way, "coherent" or consistent (with what happened last season); would be very welcome; as far as I'm concerned.   

      To be honest; if the dick-splashes, in our midsts, would stop casting up where Kenny 'went wrong' and how much it cost; I'd happily concentrate on debating the here and now. So, yeah Diego, I'm all for more coherence (and consistency of thought) but we have to be aware it cuts both ways. >:D
      « Last Edit: Nov 16, 2012 09:17:45 am by bad boy bubby »
      Scotia
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #7: Nov 16, 2012 09:18:00 am
      Good OP Diego - one of my frustrations about participating in forums is that opinions get polarised. My feelings re Kenny's departure have been well documented on here. That doesn't mean I'm not 100% behind BR. But I am conscious that concerns / complaints about dumbing down of expectations can get distilled down to Kenny vs BR - that's not and never has been my intention.

      Scouser4life
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #8: Nov 16, 2012 09:58:09 am
      Its funny when everybody keeps talking about managers, owners et al.
      In my own opinion each manager has his brief and he works according to that brief.
      We as fans probably dont have all the information to make informed decisions so we just talk outta what we think should be.
      If i may ask does anybody actually know the financial position of the club? Are u aware of the stategy for the next 5 years? Do u know the brief given to the manager when he was employed? I bet most of us cant accurately answer these questions?

      I'm a realist and i like working with facts maybe thats why I love RAFA so much my heart still aches when i hear negative things said about the man who brought pride, greatness, achievements back to the club. I was disappointed when he was fired for missing out of champions league position once in 5or is it 6 years in charge. Dissapointed when fans criticized his transfer dealings cos of a few bad signings cos i dont consider players lower than 2 million pounds (Ngog et al) they were meant to be hit and miss and most of them were.

      Whats my point and why bring Rafa into this discussion?

      What were we hoping for when we fired Rafa? Was it champions league footie? Do we have it now? Most would say he destroyed the team before he left, but i'll ask what did he leave? Could they have qualified for champions league, my answer is the quality was still a lot better than now.

      We have had 3 coaches after Rafa and the signs were on the wall which direction the club was heading. We are now more of a mid table team, mid table fans with mid table owners, Now we are getting used to lowering expectatuion across board, so why complain? For me we are where we are, and punching above our weights during the Rafa years but due to us having a great coach he spoilt us to believe, which we did.

      Going forward, i think BR is a great coach in the making, i like his vibes regarding team selection, i didnt think he started ok in my opinion in terms of transfer dealings and how he managed the players initially but thats expected. But all in all i've been satisfied with the performance of the team bar a few games (Arsenal, WEST bROM and 1st half against Chelsea). He has been aggressive and taken risks with youngsters which was one of the things i have always been preaching, its a model that works and bings greatness, check majority of the great teams in the past. So for me we are heading in the right direction and i'm still optimistic we can still get 4th and dats me being realistic. Before i used to think about winning the title during Rafa years but now i'm comfortable with 4th. So why wouldnt i back the manager???

      Now on King Kenny, i believe he needed 1 more full season to actually prove himself, dats my opinion, the team played great but didnt win matches, we hit the bar a record no of times and got to 2 cup finals, thats a record that makes u believe as a fan, and i think the decision to fire him was 1 season too soon.

      How long am i willing to give BR? It depends on the resources at BR's disposal and how well he is using them and for me at this stage, signing or no signings in Januarary with the players we have i still believe we can make 4th barring any major injuries of course.

      My point is before making comments, criticizing people please put things in perspective and be objective. And note he who pays the piper dictates the tunes.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #9: Nov 16, 2012 10:25:46 am
      You know what?... I haven't seen any posts calling for Brendan's head either (I may have missed them tho') but I do like the call for consistency [Coherence] of thought.


      Seen a couple saying doubts were starting to creep in the other day and I've seen just one or two who, no matter how subtle they try to be, have never really given him the chance as Rafa was their man. Rafa was my man too but that ended the day Rodgers got appointed. I'll praise Rafa yes, but that doesn't mean I want Rodgers to fail. Some of the anti Rafa brigade don't see that though.

      As PD pointed out, any changes at the end of the season are, on paper, wrong in every way but......what would the general consensus be if FSG gave him money to spend in January and we then still had a horrendous second half to the season and finished 15th or somewhere around there?

      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #10: Nov 16, 2012 10:30:38 am
      The general consensus should be the same as last summer - the manager needs to improve greatly in the second season.

      There are doubts about BR - that is natural due to his situation. But I agree that talk about 12 points from 11 doesn't look at the bigger picture and we need to judge how BR is doing at the end of the season.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #11: Nov 16, 2012 11:26:39 am
      what would the general consensus be if FSG gave him money to spend in January and we then still had a horrendous second half to the season and finished 15th or somewhere around there?

      That's where the coherent or "consistent", (if you prefer), approach comes into play and becomes tested Wahs. Personally speaking, I, as I've said would be willing to give Brendan the chance to learn from and rectify any mistakes. I'll stand over that.

      Ironically enough tho'; those who openly called for Kenny's head, would also be showing consistency if they were to want rid of Brendan in similar circumstances. We may not agree with their opinion but at least it's consistent.

      Where, I suspect, we wouldn't see a coherent (or consistent) attitude is among the small band of posters who pretended they wanted Kenny to stay (yet repeatedly reminded us of the rationale behind FSG sacking him). These folk, I believe, won't (should we finish with less points than last season) be calling for Brendan's head but (lacking a coherent attitude) they will be quiet... rather than promoting the rationale that FSG could sack the boss.

      Now whilst I'm all for a coherent (consistent approach) the truth is; I genuinely hope that FSG do not adopt a consistent approach (in the circumstances you describe) as I that would mean they sack Brendan.

      However, where I believe FSG should show a coherent attitude is that; just as they ask forgiveness for their mistakes and the chance to rectify them, they can afford the same luxury those around them... something that, so far, has been lacking.

      In my opinion: we fans can and should get behind Brendan. He's going through hard times, under difficult circumstances. Let's show those, who don't really get what loyalty is, that we're better than them. Let them "learn" from us; eh?
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #12: Nov 16, 2012 12:14:23 pm
      Quick question as it seems a sticky point for some

      Is it possible for people to have NOT wanted Kenny to be sacked and wanted him to be given another year BUT understand the reasoning behind the owners thinking and seeing him depart the club.

      It seems from reading through various posts that people can't believe that to be possible - if you understand the reasons why Kenny was sacked then surely you by some unknown logic wanted him sacked ?

      It's not black and white there isn't a right or wrong - there is opinions about what actions have been made.

      Did many people on here demand Kenny to be sacked ? I have not seen much evidence of that looking through various threads.

      Oldred
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #13: Nov 16, 2012 12:38:58 pm
      Great post Diego

      I think Brendan is doing a good job with what he has got.

      I hold the owners responsible for the lack of striking options and need to see some positive backing for a new striker(s) in January.
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #14: Nov 16, 2012 01:03:23 pm
      Quick question as it seems a sticky point for some

      Is it possible for people to have NOT wanted Kenny to be sacked and wanted him to be given another year BUT understand the reasoning behind the owners thinking and seeing him depart the club.

      It seems from reading through various posts that people can't believe that to be possible - if you understand the reasons why Kenny was sacked then surely you by some unknown logic wanted him sacked ?

      It's not black and white there isn't a right or wrong - there is opinions about what actions have been made.

      Did many people on here demand Kenny to be sacked ? I have not seen much evidence of that looking through various threads.



      Well a lot are still angry that Kenny got sacked.
      I have a lot of respect for Brendan and what he will bring to the club.
      That doesn't mean I agree with Kenny getting sacked. All managers make mistakes.
      Some get the chance to rectify their mistakes. Others, along with the players they brought
      in, don't get that chance.

      Kenny knew what he had to do. He as much as said that in interviews, as did Clarke.
      Of course we'll never get that chance to see that. So the biggest sticking point for many, myself
      included, is that twice in the last few years, when managers deserved the club to stick by them,
      they were scapegoated and ran out of the club.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #15: Nov 16, 2012 01:14:21 pm
      2011-12 was a bitter sweet season, and so were the discussions on this forum. However, with all the differences of opinions here, it's safe to say the vast majority still wanted King Kenny to stay at the club for another year.

      But he didn't. And then people started to get really angry with the owners and the choices they made.

      Brendan Rodgers is one of their choices.

      He's had a difficult start to his career with only 12 points from 11 games.

      Last season, a lot of people seemingly didn't care about 8th being our worst league finish in decades, and they never took seriously the stats that said that at some point we had our worst run of form since the 50's. So isn't it funny to see the same people getting all worked up on how this season's is our worst start to a league campaign since... since... (I don't remember)?

      Yes, it is!

      After all, how is that even fair to judge a manager after only 12 games? If it supposedly wasn't fair to judge the previous manager on 1 year and a half, then please let's just have a little more coherence with the new one.

      What does it matter our number of points in November, really? Absolutely nothing. It's the final position that matters and we're still very far from it. Last season we had an even worst league run over 12 games. And in the end, it just didn't matter one little bit when it happened - in the start, in the middle or in the end of the season. Don't you remember... this?

      0-0 Spurs @ Anfield
      1-2 Man Utd @ Old Trafford
      1-2 Arsenal @ Anfield
      0-1 Sunderland @ Stadium of Light
      3-0 Everton @ Anfield
      2-3 QPR @ Loftus Road
      1-2 Wigan @ Anfield
      0-2 Newcastle @ St James Park
      1-1 Aston Villa @ Anfield
      3-2 Blackburn @ Ewood Park
      0-1 WBA @ Anfield

      What's that? 8 points from 11 games (6 of whom were at home), if my math is right.

      That is not to mention the difference in the amount of money each manager had to spend, and the fact that this season, we had the most difficult schedule of the whole league in the first games of the season. All of that with a new manager trying to change things at the club.


      Don't get me wrong - I think Kenny deserved more time and I agree there are reasons to be angry with the owners. But if you think 1 year and half isn't time enough to judge a manager that spent quite a lot of money, then don't get all stupid after 12 f**king games with the new one who's seen more players going than coming.

      And most of all I hope you don't come back here in the future to lecture people about your understanding of "the Liverpool way".

      Great piece lad, you're far too rational to be a football fan !
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #16: Nov 16, 2012 01:19:28 pm
      Well a lot are still angry that Kenny got sacked.
      I have a lot of respect for Brendan and what he will bring to the club.
      That doesn't mean I agree with Kenny getting sacked. All managers make mistakes.
      Some get the chance to rectify their mistakes. Others, along with the players they brought
      in, don't get that chance.

      Kenny knew what he had to do. He as much as said that in interviews, as did Clarke.
      Of course we'll never get that chance to see that. So the biggest sticking point for many, myself
      included, is that twice in the last few years, when managers deserved the club to stick by them,
      they were scapegoated and ran out of the club.

      Fully understand the feeling about the Kenny leaving

      Despite what some think I'm certainly not pretending about not wanting him fired and I was as gutted and angry as the next person - he is the guy I grew up to hero worship. I think a lot of the anger comes from who he is - If it was someone having no connection with the club then I think the anger would be a lot less and the majority of people would think a little different - but our club had a foundation if sentiment and that's what makes us special so it is painful when someone the fans connect with leaves.

      Sometimes we have to get pass the connection and think with our head at times - the reasons for each person leaving are clear - that doesn't mean you have to agree with them but they are clear.

      The question is what do we do now - we have to look forwards - we have to get behind BR ( not suggesting anyone isn't ) but importantly we have place a bit of trust ( not 100% ) in what the owners are trying to achieve  - they didn't sack Kenny for the sheer fun of it , the same with sacking Woy or appointing BR - they are doing what they think is best for the club - that's all I ever ask from people - to do their best , 100% effort within their capacity - if it turns out that its not good enough then I'm sure they will be the first to recognise that and do something about it . I'm sick of the negativity around the club at the moment and I hate seeing splits in fans - it just breeds more bad vibes and that filters into the grounds and players and we get nowhere. We need to get behind each other , get behind the club and we need to show that support each game and we will get the rewards !

      We will return

      YNWA
      stuey
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #17: Nov 16, 2012 01:24:27 pm
      Great post Diego

      I think Brendan is doing a good job with what he has got.

      I hold the owners responsible for the lack of striking options and need to see some positive backing for a new striker(s) in January.
      Who else but the owners can shoulder responsibilty for the signings, the choice of manager, the demise of LFC and it's current status.
      Only FSG have held the reigns and made the decisions that directly affect the asset.
      Some of their directives have been ill informed and faulted by their own admission, while on other occasions nothing has been admitted and scapegoats sought.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #18: Nov 16, 2012 01:28:42 pm
      Who else but the owners can shoulder responsibilty for the signings, the choice of manager, the demise of LFC and it's current status.
      Only FSG have held the reigns and made the decisions that directly affect the asset.
      Some of their directives have been ill informed and faulted by their own admission, while on other occasions nothing has been admitted and scapegoats sought.

      That is half the problem - the tunnel vision to blame everything that happened over the last two year on FSG.

      It's the unwillingness to realise there is blame to be shared on numerous people within the club over the last 2 years and a lot if blame on previous owners.

      Yesterday was a perfect example of looking to pin any blame on the owners.

      It's time to recognise other people need to take some responsibility for mistakes made over the recent years
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #19: Nov 16, 2012 01:50:09 pm
      Sometimes we have to get pass the connection and think with our head at times - the reasons for each person leaving are clear - that doesn't mean you have to agree with them but they are clear.

      Why does there have to be a presumption that those who wanted Kenny to stay were not thinking with their heads?
      It's a pretentious attempt to pidgeon hole fans on the Pro Kenny side. To insist that to argue in the defense of Kenny
      is to argue on the basis of emotion rather than any substantial logic.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #20: Nov 16, 2012 01:53:32 pm
      Why does there have to be a presumption that those who wanted Kenny to stay were not thinking with their heads?
      It's a pretentious attempt to pidgeon hole fans on the Pro Kenny side. To insist that to argue in the defense of Kenny
      is to argue on the basis of emotion rather than any substantial logic.

      Just what I have witnessed with a majority but not everyone.

      Have witnessed the line " You don't sack a Legend "

      It's more a general feeling as opposed to the case for everyone - my post wasn't try to imply that and I apologise if it did as i fully understand there are people who didn't just go with their heart.
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #21: Nov 16, 2012 02:01:30 pm
      Why does there have to be a presumption that those who wanted Kenny to stay were not thinking with their heads?
      It's a pretentious attempt to pidgeon hole fans on the Pro Kenny side. To insist that to argue in the defense of Kenny
      is to argue on the basis of emotion rather than any substantial logic.

      Exactly Racer

      No matter how many times you try to explain your standpoint it just comes back that you're bitter because it's kenny.

      I can see why some think it's repetitive and why I'm leaving these debates to people who must be able to explain themselves better
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #22: Nov 16, 2012 02:04:21 pm
      Exactly Racer

      No matter how many times you try to explain your standpoint it just comes back that you're bitter because it's kenny.

      I can see why some think it's repetitive and why I'm leaving these debates to people who must be able to explain themselves better

      I've probably been one of the most vocal when it's come to explaining my believe and defense of Kenny.
      That's why I'm at a loss to see the head vs heart debate come into it.

      I'd like to think in our debates based around the transition from Kenny's to Brendan's team most of what
      I would consider debate has been done so based on well backed up arguments.
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #23: Nov 16, 2012 02:08:23 pm
      I've probably been one of the most vocal when it's come to explaining my believe and defense of Kenny.
      That's why I'm at a loss to see the head vs heart debate come into it.

      I'd like to think in our debates based around the transition from Kenny's to Brendan's team most of what
      I would consider debate has been done so based on well backed up arguments.

      As i said in my post above that it wasn't aimed at everyone and I apologise if it came out that way - I have had reasoned debates with both yourself and PD and a few others with you not just thinking with your heart and using your head. The heart business isn't just aimed at this forum is aimed at others as well as twitter etc - maybe the head thinkers ( strange phrase but hopefully you know what I mean ) have been engulfed a bit by the guys thinking with the sentiment.
      stuey
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #24: Nov 16, 2012 02:08:40 pm
      Why does there have to be a presumption that those who wanted Kenny to stay were not thinking with their heads?
      It's a pretentious attempt to pidgeon hole fans on the Pro Kenny side. To insist that to argue in the defense of Kenny
      is to argue on the basis of emotion rather than any substantial logic.
      Pretentious assumption is exactly what you are replying to 99.9% of the time racer with the poster in question, he seems to think his thought process is completely infallible and any disagreement is part of a clique to dethrone him from his bullshit tower.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #25: Nov 16, 2012 02:10:01 pm
      Pretentious assumption is exactly what you are replying to 99.9% of the time racer with the poster in question, he seems to think his thought process is completely infallible and any disagreement is part of a clique to dethrone him from his bullshit tower.

      Can we stick to the topic please instead of looking to make cheap digs at me.

      Thank you
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #26: Nov 16, 2012 02:16:06 pm
      Totally agree with the OP, Diego always has a habit of talking far too much sense.

      The only criticism of Brendan I have at the moment is he panders to us too much in the media when we don't get a result or a performance, I prefer to see improvement in performance as my reward as a fan rather than ego rubbing.
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #27: Nov 16, 2012 02:17:39 pm
      As i said in my post above that it wasn't aimed at everyone and I apologise if it came out that way - I have had reasoned debates with both yourself and PD and a few others with you not just thinking with your heart and using your head. The heart business isn't just aimed at this forum is aimed at others as well as twitter etc - maybe the head thinkers ( strange phrase but hopefully you know what I mean ) have been engulfed a bit by the guys thinking with the sentiment.

      That's the problem with sweeping statement though.
      This:
      Sometimes we have to get pass the connection and think with our head at times - the reasons for each person leaving are clear - that doesn't mean you have to agree with them but they are clear.
      makes no separation of anyone who has argued in the defense of Kenny.

      It's purely dismissive of any reasoned debate for Kenny remaining and makes the reasoning for Kenny leaving absolute.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #28: Nov 16, 2012 02:18:51 pm
      That's the problem with sweeping statement though.
      This:makes no separation of anyone who has argued in the defense of Kenny.

      It's purely dismissive of any reasoned debate for Kenny remaining and makes the reasoning for Kenny leaving absolute.

      And I apologise for making it come across that way - it was certainly not my intention
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #29: Nov 16, 2012 02:22:49 pm
      And I apologise for making it come across that way - it was certainly not my intention

      No problem. As you said, we don't have to agree with the reasonings.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #30: Nov 16, 2012 02:26:36 pm
      No problem. As you said, we don't have to agree with the reasonings.

      As long as the owners are strong in their reasoning and they are making decisions for what they think is for the good of the club then I won't complain - I may disagree with decisions and think they are wrong etc but no placards or protests or comparison to previous regimes etc.

      I think our owners have to stand up and be strong in their convictions and decisions. Make mistakes - yes but ensure they don't put our club in danger and ensure they don't repeat the same mistake
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #31: Nov 16, 2012 02:33:49 pm
      I think our owners have to stand up and be strong in their convictions and decisions. Make mistakes - yes but ensure they don't put our club in danger and ensure they don't repeat the same mistake

      On the subject of not repeating mistakes.
      We made a mistake in not bringing in a striker last January.
      Let's hope we don't repeat that mistake even if the reasoning is completely different this time.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #32: Nov 16, 2012 02:36:56 pm
      On the subject of not repeating mistakes.
      We made a mistake in not bringing in a striker last January.
      Let's hope we don't repeat that mistake even if the reasoning is completely different this time.


      Yeah agree - I don't think BR or the owners are that stupid to ignore the problem

      BR has stated a number of times we need a striker so can see one coming
      Scouser4life
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #33: Nov 16, 2012 02:50:48 pm
      Enough of all this talk about bringing in a striker in Jan. Thats not the only problem with the club, its just part of it.

      Most people make it seem like if we had a Clint Dempsey in the summer's transfer window everything would have been okay. I'm tired of people blaming the owners for everything wrong with the club, maybe this time around they didnt open their pockets as we wished but can we really blame them. We just assume every new owner is a Sheik Monsour or a Roman that pisses away their money, some of these guys are businessmen and we need to respect that. A lot of guys think the people in charge have to be perfect and make all the right decisions every single time, well sorry to disappoint u its not the case in the real world.

      We are where we are and have what we have at the moment are we really making the most out of it. Thats what i believe is the question and not all these bullshit talk about bringing in a striker.

      Pls lets be more objective in the way we look at issues and be less sentimental though i understand we all have to be cos of the passion i do it at times too, but its not the owners alone neither is it the manager alone evry situation has its own unique reason for making us where we are, so lets look at issues objectively.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #34: Nov 16, 2012 02:51:32 pm
      Quick question as it seems a sticky point for some

      Is it possible for people to have NOT wanted Kenny to be sacked and wanted him to be given another year BUT understand the reasoning behind the owners thinking and seeing him depart the club.


      It is and it brings me back to my point earlier when I alluded to my doubts that a lot of the die hard preachers of longevity would have the same coherence for Rodgers if he spent a load of money in January and then had a poor second half to the season and we finished 15th. The general consensus and PC route to take would be for us to persevere as a year is not long in management.

      Unfortunately though, the league position of 15th would then cast doubts on whether that would be the right decison.

      What if the league position is a true reflection of Rodgers' managerial skills? What if we give him more spends and he wastes it and we fail to improve and the club falls back even further?

      Its a massive decision for the powers that be and carries huge pressure for the decison to be the right one.

      If Rodgers' signings do okay and he finishes around 7th, the performances and tactical approach on the pitch excite and show promise and our youth players continue to flourish then the decision is easy.

      Dalglish could of been given another year. FSG could of looked at the exciting performances and poor luck during the first half of last season, the Carling Cup win and our return to Europe and seen that as ample reason to persevere.

      But they probably looked at the performances of the signings he made and their price tags, the run in the second half of the season and what they deemed to be poor PR. When they looked at the spending of the previous season and the second half of last season they must of judged Kenny on that basis.

      Who knows what would of happened if they'd kept Kenny? Fact is we'll never know.

      For now though I think there is an abundance of coherence for Brendan but you can mark my words that if results aren't improved or improving by late February a lot of the people on his side at the moment will show their true colours..
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #35: Nov 16, 2012 02:57:18 pm
      It is and it brings me back to my point earlier when I alluded to my doubts that a lot of the die hard preachers of longevity would have the same coherence for Rodgers if he spent a load of money in January and then had a poor second half to the season and we finished 15th. The general consensus and PC route to take would be for us to persevere as a year is not long in management.

      Unfortunately though, the league position of 15th would then cast doubts on whether that would be the right decison.

      What if the league position is a true reflection of Rodgers' managerial skills? What if we give him more spends and he wastes it and we fail to improve and the club falls back even further?

      Its a massive decision for the powers that be and carries huge pressure for the decison to be the right one.

      If Rodgers' signings do okay and he finishes around 7th, the performances and tactical approach on the pitch excite and show promise and our youth players continue to flourish then the decision is easy.

      Dalglish could of been given another year. FSG could of looked at the exciting performances and poor luck during the first half of last season, the Carling Cup win and our return to Europe and seen that as ample reason to persevere.

      But they probably looked at the performances of the signings he made and their price tags, the run in the second half of the season and what they deemed to be poor PR. When they looked at the spending of the previous season and the second half of last season they must of judged Kenny on that basis.

      Who knows what would of happened if they'd kept Kenny? Fact is we'll never know.

      For now though I think there is an abundance of coherence for Brendan but you can mark my words that if results aren't improved or improving by late February a lot of the people on his side at the moment will show their true colours..

      All I can say is great post - excellent WAHS
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #36: Nov 16, 2012 03:02:12 pm
      Whether the word coherence is the right one ...........

      Isn't it? :( That's the word I would have used in Portuguese... :D


      Oh, and I didn't mean that there are lots of people calling from Brendan's head, I'm just stating how differently people have been treating similar situations. I've seen the same people who ironically dismissed any talks about "worst run since 1954 (or something like that)" with Kenny starting to use this stick to beat Rodgers.

      Just like last season; the mitigating circumstances are there for all to see.

      Fair enough, and that's why, despite everything, when we had a poll the vast majority wanted Kenny to stay. And I would say the mitigating circumstances are even stronger for Rodgers. Firstly, because he's had much less time so far (ridiculous 12 league games); secondly, because while Kenny's new players were signings he made, Rodgers' "new" players are basically kids from the youth system. And like it or not, the amount of money a manager spends has everything to do with the judgement of him. Man City have won the league last season and I still think Mancini is an awful manager. With what he had to spend, he should be doing much better.

      By the way, I'm not talking about FSG's consistency, I'm clearly talking about forum members. I sure as hell hope the owners don't go sacking managers from season to season showing they are consistent, but I also never hoped to see a forum full of teachers of the Liverpool Way doubting a manager with the use of a rationale they never used with the previous manager.
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #37: Nov 16, 2012 03:03:04 pm

      For now though I think there is an abundance of coherence for Brendan but you can mark my words that if results aren't improved or improving by late February a lot of the people on his side at the moment will show their true colours..


      Show their true colours?

      What you're describing is reasonable fans giving time to a manager and understanding that he we'll need January to make some changes to the squad.
      The fact is that we will need a couple of seasons to get a proper Brendan Rodger's team, but that shouldn't stop us seeing the development throughout this season.

      I wouldn't call having doubts over a 15th place league position "Showing their true colour"
      Makes the fans in question sound disingenuous. Are we really saying that if results are bad in February and you question it your not a true fan?
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #38: Nov 16, 2012 03:05:56 pm
      Isn't it?  That's the word I would have used in Portuguese...

      Maybe "Balance and Objectivity" would have summed your point up better.
      Nothing wrong with Coherence, just if it needed clarity.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #39: Nov 16, 2012 03:17:29 pm
      Show their true colours?

      What you're describing is reasonable fans giving time to a manager and understanding that he we'll need January to make some changes to the squad.
      The fact is that we will need a couple of seasons to get a proper Brendan Rodger's team, but that shouldn't stop us seeing the development throughout this season.

      I wouldn't call having doubts over a 15th place league position "Showing their true colour"
      Makes the fans in question sound disingenuous. Are we really saying that if results are bad in February and you question it your not a true fan?


      Is that what you just got from my post? Total wrong end of the stick.

      I may be suggesting some of the people showing support now will change as soon as they get the opportunity but I'm certainly not suggesting that there is anything wrong in being behind the manager as I am. There may just be a few who are claming to want him to have his three years but only because that's the right thing to do/say.
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #40: Nov 16, 2012 03:31:08 pm
      Is that what you just got from my post? Total wrong end of the stick.

      I may be suggesting some of the people showing support now will change as soon as they get the opportunity but I'm certainly not suggesting that there is anything wrong in being behind the manager as I am. There may just be a few who are claming to want him to have his three years but only because that's the right thing to do/say.

      Maybe I should switch off the defense setting until the new year.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #41: Nov 16, 2012 03:37:19 pm
      What an excellent OP.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #42: Nov 16, 2012 03:39:22 pm

      Especially when English isn't his first language.

      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #43: Nov 16, 2012 03:40:06 pm
      Especially when English isn't his first language.



      Really does put us native English speakers to shame haha
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #44: Nov 16, 2012 03:40:54 pm
      Especially when English isn't his first language.



      Really ? Well that is very impressive - good work Diego
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #45: Nov 16, 2012 04:27:14 pm
      It is and it brings me back to my point earlier when I alluded to my doubts that a lot of the die hard preachers of longevity would have the same coherence for Rodgers if he spent a load of money in January and then had a poor second half to the season and we finished 15th. The general consensus and PC route to take would be for us to persevere as a year is not long in management.

      Unfortunately though, the league position of 15th would then cast doubts on whether that would be the right decison.

      What if the league position is a true reflection of Rodgers' managerial skills? What if we give him more spends and he wastes it and we fail to improve and the club falls back even further?

      Its a massive decision for the powers that be and carries huge pressure for the decison to be the right one.

      If Rodgers' signings do okay and he finishes around 7th, the performances and tactical approach on the pitch excite and show promise and our youth players continue to flourish then the decision is easy.

      Dalglish could of been given another year. FSG could of looked at the exciting performances and poor luck during the first half of last season, the Carling Cup win and our return to Europe and seen that as ample reason to persevere.

      But they probably looked at the performances of the signings he made and their price tags, the run in the second half of the season and what they deemed to be poor PR. When they looked at the spending of the previous season and the second half of last season they must of judged Kenny on that basis.

      Who knows what would of happened if they'd kept Kenny? Fact is we'll never know.

      For now though I think there is an abundance of coherence for Brendan but you can mark my words that if results aren't improved or improving by late February a lot of the people on his side at the moment will show their true colours..

      Good points mate..

      I think you can only answer that one yourself.. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you would do that or not.

      I personally wouldnt, i can guarentee you that you wouldnt hear me call for the managers head. If he was given decent funds to strengthen and a couple of those signings didnt work out immediately i wouldnt want him sacked for that, i want him to persist with those players to try to make it work. Some players need longer than a season as well, especially at a club like ours..

      With great power comes great responsibility..

      That saying applies to this football club from top to bottom.. From the owners through the manager to the supporters..
      The owners have the responsibilty to make the right decisions and in my opinion to now back their man to the hilt, and not panic if it doesnt happen over night.
      The manager has the responsibility to move the club forward, all playing aspects are in his control.
      We have the responsibility to back the manager and his team.. If we put added pressure on either then it makes the job harder for all concerned. We are supporters... Lets do as it says on the tin eh?..

      Everybody connected to the club wants it to be successful..

      Lets do our bit.

      I loved Rafa, i didnt want him gone. But he has

      I loved Kenny, i didnt want him gone. But he has

      Brendan deserves our support, hell he needs it.

      Id be disapointed if anyone mutters the sack word.
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #46: Nov 16, 2012 04:29:28 pm

      Id be disapointed if anyone mutters the sack word.

      Mutter mutter prowess mutter mutter sack.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #47: Nov 16, 2012 04:29:53 pm
      Good points mate..

      I think you can only answer that one yourself.. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you would do that or not.

      I personally wouldnt, i can guarentee you that you wouldnt hear me call for the managers head. If he was given decent funds to strengthen and a couple of those signings didnt work out immediately i wouldnt want him sacked for that, i want him to persist with those players to try to make it work. Some players need longer than a season as well, especially at a club like ours..

      With great power comes great responsibility..

      That saying applies to this football club from top to bottom.. From the owners through the manager to the supporters..
      The owners have the responsibilty to make the right decisions and in my opinion to now back their man to the hilt, and not panic if it doesnt happen over night.
      The manager has the responsibility to move the club forward, all playing aspects are in his control.
      We have the responsibility to back the manager and his team.. If we put added pressure on either then it makes the job harder for all concerned. We are supporters... Lets do as it says on the tin eh?..

      Everybody connected to the club wants it to be successful..

      Lets do our bit.

      I loved Rafa, i didnt want him gone. But he has

      I loved Kenny, i didnt want him gone. But he has

      Brendan deserves our support, hell he needs it.

      Id be disapointed if anyone mutters the sack word.

      Good post.

      I would be more than disappointed ! I would be disgusted.

      The worst thing is I'm expecting it to happen :(
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #48: Nov 16, 2012 04:30:33 pm
      Mutter mutter prowess mutter mutter sack.

      :laugh:
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #49: Nov 16, 2012 04:34:30 pm
      Especially when English isn't his first language.

      He is a top fella as well..

      Dont forget he came all the way from Brazil to watch Accrington Stanley
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #50: Nov 16, 2012 04:35:03 pm
      He is a top fella as well..

      Dont forget he came all the way from Brazil to watch Accrington Stanley

      Blimey !! That's outstanding
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #51: Nov 16, 2012 04:35:39 pm
      Mutter mutter prowess mutter mutter sack.

       :D

      I knew you'd be the first
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #52: Nov 16, 2012 04:45:59 pm
      I think you can only answer that one yourself.. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you would do that or not.

      Sick of replacing the fuckers.

      Brendan deserves our support, hell he needs it.

      Id be disapointed if anyone mutters the sack word.

      Without doubt he deserves our support but I think you'll find that if its not going too well come the end of February(ish) you might be disappointed.


      http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,41942.msg1185577.html#msg1185577
      racerx34
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #53: Nov 16, 2012 04:49:43 pm

      That's what she said. Oh wait... :laugh:
      You'd be let down if I didn't. I said.

      Well my weekend is arriving.
      Enjoy.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #54: Nov 16, 2012 04:52:29 pm
      Sick of replacing the fuckers.

      Without doubt he deserves our support but I think you'll find that if its not going too well come the end of February(ish) you might be disappointed.

      http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,41942.msg1185577.html#msg1185577

      That is brilliant

      Lots of respect to Diego
      stuey
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #55: Nov 16, 2012 04:56:34 pm
      Maybe "Balance and Objectivity" would have summed your point up better.
      Nothing wrong with Coherence, just if it needed clarity.

      Cohesion possibly? By the by really considering what an excellent topic it proves to be.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #56: Nov 16, 2012 04:58:03 pm
      Did not want him gone (Kenny), sorry he was let go. Swore over and over again that FSG would let him see out his contract and then they turned around and canned him.

      Brendan is the manager now and I support him the way I supported Kenny.

      The only thing that is nerve wracking at times is the fact that despite the fact that it was wrong to sack him (we all agree on that btw) 6 months later we can't let go and it needs to be a major topic if discussion every day when we have already discussed it in every way/shape/form for 6 months.

      Just like if you go into the Rafa thread and the those that wait for him to return to LFC as soon as these owners (who can't handle Rafa evidently) leave and he can be reinstalled to the throne. I have nothing against Rafa (before my time) but in my mind sly little innuendos like that are an insult to the current manager.

      Many things happen in the world and in our personal lives that we find distasteful and offensive, at some point and time though things have to be let go of or we can't do anything but stay in one place. That's where I am now, I don't care to argue about ownership or Andy Carroll or Charlie Adam; I am on Brendan Rodgers train until it reaches the station or he crashes it.

      End of my rant.
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #57: Nov 16, 2012 05:07:11 pm

      The only thing that is nerve wracking at times is the fact that despite the fact that it was wrong to sack him (we all agree on that btw) 6 months later we can't let go and it needs to be a major topic if discussion every day when we have already discussed it in every way/shape/form for 6 months.


      This is probably nail on head time Az..

      Where it gets thrown around about people not supporting the new manager or not letting it go..

      Most people agree that it was wrong to sack him.. Yes.

      A high percentage can accept that it was wrong but move on but the fact its Kenny makes it difficult to leave it when you see people bad mouth him.. Had it been another manager, we would still agree it was wrong but they wouldnt hold the same affection as Kenny does.

      So yes we can accept Kenny is sacked but we still feel a debt and oweing to him to stand by him as its Kenny


      But just because some still argue his point doesnt mean they dont support Brendan and want him to be a success and accept that we have moved on as a club... We still fight for Kenny, because he is Kenny.... And he would fight for us
      MIRO
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #58: Nov 16, 2012 05:15:12 pm
      Good.

      That wore me out.

      The elevated level of debate a page or two back.

      I'll put the oxygen mask back then.


       ;D
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #59: Nov 16, 2012 05:34:42 pm
      6 months later we can't let go and it needs to be a major topic if discussion every day when we have already discussed it in every way/shape/form for 6 months.

      First off I'd like to apologise for initially leaving my post open so that it could be hijacked (like every other thread of late) and then steered into a 'look at me' excercise. That was never my intention and my post, if people had the intelligence to understand was written, was very much on point with the O.P. - i.e. coherence and consistency of approach when "judging" Brendan.

      And I would say the mitigating circumstances are even stronger for Rodgers.

      And I wouldn't disagree... apart from creating/missing more chances - we don't seem to be doing that as much but I may be wrong.

      It is and it brings me back to my point earlier when I alluded to my doubts that a lot of the die hard preachers of longevity would have the same coherence for Rodgers if he spent a load of money in January and then had a poor second half to the season and we finished 15th.

      I can only speak for myself wahs but (in keeping with the 'sentiment' of the O.P.) we could postulate what would happen if each 'faction' remained consistent in their approach (If what you've suggested actually were to happen) - let's look at it:

      Those, fans,  who thought Kenny should have been given another season to rectify any mistakes: - If 'they' were to remain consistent; would afford Brendan the same luxury.

      Those, fans, who wanted rid of Kenny 'because the table doesn't lie/he's not the right man for the job': - If 'they' were to remain consistent; would call for Brendan's head.

      Those, fans, who, let's just say, "understood" why Kenny was sacked:  - If 'they' were to remain consistent; would say how wrong it was but would, naturally enough, just accept that FSG have their reasons for sacking Brendan; remain dispassionate as ever and move on to the next rebuild.

      FSG: - would, if they were to remain consistent, sack Brendan.

      So getting back to my earlier reply - I'm all for consistency (but not from FSG  ;)). Oh and I'd be more than happy if all fans and FSG had a "coherent" approach to the manager: i.e. back and support him.  ;D
      « Last Edit: Nov 16, 2012 06:35:25 pm by bad boy bubby »
      srslfc
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #60: Nov 16, 2012 05:37:10 pm
      If I get it right Diego by Coherence you mean giving Brenadn the same chance that most of us gave Kenny?

      If so I'm not sure many would disagree to be honest and I haven't seen much critiscism of the boss apart from the usual stuff regarding team selections/tactics/fprmations that we normally discuss on here.

      I fully agree that 12 games is way to early to make a judgement on how Brendan is doing and his prospects for the future but I also don't think it's realistic njot to have any criticism or doubts about him either.

      I have expressed on occasions that I may have a niggling doubt if he is up to the job as while I still feel he has all the attributes to make a successful manager he has little experience of the pressure at a club such as ours and to be honest only time will tell if he is good enough, and it's time he should get by the way as firing him and starting again is not an option as far as I see it.

      Having a doubt about the manager does not mean I or anyone else doesn't fully support him.

      I was fully behind Kenny last season and will be the same with Brendan this one.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #61: Nov 16, 2012 06:15:18 pm
      It depends on how quickly you are prepared to forget Kenny and his loyalty to this club and all he has done for us and what you believe was the reason for his departure.
      You simply cant pretend everything is rosey because it is not; there is an anger within the club that things are not as they should be off the field never mind on the field.
      Also I dont remember many if any posts calling for Brendans head the confusion lies again within the running of the club.
      If Kenny was sacked for not making top 4 why would you hire another manager and not give him the same targets afterall he inherited the same squad and was allowed to bring in some of his own players so why would anything less than 4th be acceptable.
      there has been a continual chipping away at Kenny's record and his signings Carrol,gone,Adam gone,Downing probably about to go Henderson nowhere to be seen.
      I cannot remember any other time or club where there has been a concerted effort to remove all traces of a former manager from a club so while you have George Lucas who applauds everything FSG do some of us are just not sure what it is they want with us or from us.
      Now another PR disaster sacking the man brought in to improve PR its just gets worse and the more F**k ups they make the more they seem to distance themselves from Anfield .
      Another big moment will come in January when they have the chance to back Brendan but remember what Brendan has said he needs bodies in to add players to the thin squad.That to me says he can't afford to let anyone leave he need additional players coming in so no sell to buy in January.Watch this space.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #62: Nov 16, 2012 06:21:44 pm
      It depends on how quickly you are prepared to forget Kenny and his loyalty to this club and all he has done for us and what you believe was the reason for his departure.
      You simply cant pretend everything is rosey because it is not; there is an anger within the club that things are not as they should be off the field never mind on the field.
      Also I dont remember many if any posts calling for Brendans head the confusion lies again within the running of the club.
      If Kenny was sacked for not making top 4 why would you hire another manager and not give him the same targets afterall he inherited the same squad and was allowed to bring in some of his own players so why would anything less than 4th be acceptable.
      there has been a continual chipping away at Kenny's record and his signings Carrol,gone,Adam gone,Downing probably about to go Henderson nowhere to be seen.
      I cannot remember any other time or club where there has been a concerted effort to remove all traces of a former manager from a club so while you have George Lucas who applauds everything FSG do some of us are just not sure what it is they want with us or from us.
      Now another PR disaster sacking the man brought in to improve PR its just gets worse and the more F**k ups they make the more they seem to distance themselves from Anfield .
      Another big moment will come in January when they have the chance to back Brendan but remember what Brendan has said he needs bodies in to add players to the thin squad.That to me says he can't afford to let anyone leave he need additional players coming in so no sell to buy in January.Watch this space.

      It seems you have missed the point of the thread and just regurgitated the same old FSG opinion.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #63: Nov 16, 2012 06:27:34 pm
      It seems you have missed the point of the thread and just regurgitated the same old FSG opinion.
      I'll praise them when they do the right thing unlike you who appear to be a one man supporters club for FSG.Just the sheer volume of your pro FSG posts calls into question your validity or your ability to see anything but good in them.
      As I have said you are one of the I love Kenny ....BUT brigade.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #64: Nov 16, 2012 06:28:32 pm
      I'll praise them when they do the right thing unlike you who appear to be a one man supporters club for FSG.Just the sheer volume of your pro FSG posts calls into question your validity or your ability to see anything but good in them.
      As I have said you are one of the I love Kenny ....BUT brigade.

      Yes you have indeed missed the point of the thread.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #65: Nov 16, 2012 06:32:44 pm
      Yes you have indeed missed the point of the thread.
      In your tiny world maybe but I answered it like everyone else and it is not your position to question other people posts its a forum for everyone even you.
      Swab
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #66: Nov 16, 2012 07:01:19 pm
      bad boy bubby

      First of all, thanks for a very good post at the top of the page.

      Would you say that taken overall that there has to be recognition of mitigating factors, especially if people have a rethink about where they stand on certain issues?

      Of course some people are never going to change their minds, even if hard cold truth marched up and kicked them in the balls they'd try and find a way to spin it in their favour, depending on their stance, but at the same time, depending on what happens on the field and off, up to and including next summers transfer window events may conspire to change a reasonable persons view.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #67: Nov 16, 2012 07:59:33 pm
      Of course some people are never going to change their minds, even if hard cold truth marched up and kicked them in the balls they'd try and find a way to spin it in their favour, depending on their stance, but at the same time, depending on what happens on the field and off, up to and including next summers transfer window events may conspire to change a reasonable persons view.

      Certainly swab; a reasonable person's mind can always be changed, not only through sensible discussion but also through witnessing, first hand, some positive action. We fans can argue 'til we are blue in the face but the time for words has long gone I'm afraid.
      Would you say that taken overall that there has to be recognition of mitigating factors, especially if people have a rethink about where they stand on certain issues?
      Of course mate... part of my job is to day and daily 'argue' about mitigating factors... I understand their importance fully but we must remember that any understanding has to cut both ways.
      Joey B
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #68: Nov 16, 2012 11:25:25 pm
      Grreat thread Diego.That said it now has gone from your intention of coherance to another Kenny thread.
      I might be barking up the proverbial tree.But do the "older" posters on here seem more willing to give BR plenty of time to instill (want for a better word)his style/logic etc.Like any new manager he has to change the players (in and out so it becomes a BR team and not the one Kenny left behind,for obvious reasons.The main one being:If he had a great deal of success without changes.He would have done it with "Kenny's)team.
      I have a really good feeling about Brendan Rodgers and the success he will bring to our club.
      Scotia
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #69: Nov 17, 2012 09:50:34 am
      First off I'd like to apologise for initially leaving my post open so that it could be hijacked (like every other thread of late) and then steered into a 'look at me' excercise. That was never my intention and my post, if people had the intelligence to understand was written, was very much on point with the O.P. - i.e. coherence and consistency of approach when "judging" Brendan.

      And I wouldn't disagree... apart from creating/missing more chances - we don't seem to be doing that as much but I may be wrong.

      I can only speak for myself wahs but (in keeping with the 'sentiment' of the O.P.) we could postulate what would happen if each 'faction' remained consistent in their approach (If what you've suggested actually were to happen) - let's look at it:

      Those, fans,  who thought Kenny should have been given another season to rectify any mistakes: - If 'they' were to remain consistent; would afford Brendan the same luxury.

      Those, fans, who wanted rid of Kenny 'because the table doesn't lie/he's not the right man for the job': - If 'they' were to remain consistent; would call for Brendan's head.

      Those, fans, who, let's just say, "understood" why Kenny was sacked:  - If 'they' were to remain consistent; would say how wrong it was but would, naturally enough, just accept that FSG have their reasons for sacking Brendan; remain dispassionate as ever and move on to the next rebuild.

      FSG: - would, if they were to remain consistent, sack Brendan.

      So getting back to my earlier reply - I'm all for consistency (but not from FSG  ;)). Oh and I'd be more than happy if all fans and FSG had a "coherent" approach to the manager: i.e. back and support him.  ;D

      Good post BBB - though I suspect some of it will get lost in the noise - but this is what I was saying earlier on.....it is perfectly reasonable to support Brendan and still view the sacking of Kenny (all aspects of that from Suarez to dismissal) as a clear symptom of a primary cause for concern - particularly given our current league position.

      That doesn't mean you don't back Brendan or the team but it does speak of a deep lying concern about how the club is operating and what we should expect next. Again - not an "owners" post just an acknowledgment that we currently hire and fire and there is a lack of coherence in terms of policy and direction.

      It's not hanging onto the past - it's using history (recent) to inform future events. I was taught never to ignore history so I remain concerned for the future and BR until proven otherwise.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #70: Nov 17, 2012 10:33:05 am
      For FSG to remain consistent BBB, they wouldn't have to sack Brendan whatsoever.  It all depends on what KK said he could do for the club.  I have a sneaking feeling Kenny said he could get Champions League, he finished well outside that remit.  Brendan hasn't, it seems, put himself under those constrictions and so, for FSG, to remain consistent, they'd sack him if he failed to reach his targets which aren't as high as Kenny's were, if I recall Brendan actually said this would be a tough, painful, transition season and he's got that spot on thus far. 

      Now I know some will say that that point of view is dumbing down expectations.  So what?  We're aren't in a fit state to challenge for the league, we've barely even bothered it in nigh on a quarter of a century, save a couple of first loser finishes.  Now FSG have made some cock-ups in their time here, but they've stated they are willing to learn and say they have the best interest of the club at heart and if that means that they want the club to be self-sufficient, then fine, I have little or no time for sugar daddy owners and never will.  I know they've trimmed the wage bill, it needed it, christ us fans moaned like F**k about deadwood clogging up the wage bill and the biggest moans were reserved for Maxi, Bellamy and Kuyt, who all wanted out of the club.  Kuyt the only one who could have maybe stayed, but he activated the clause in his contract. So with the wage bill reduced, necessary though done a tad too harshly in my book and three players gone who wanted out, situations which fans, on the whole, have always said, if they don't want to be here, let them go, yet that wasn't the reaction that occurred this time, when it was put into practice. 
       
      I believe one thing for certain though, for fans to remain consistent, that would require a higher power and I have no belief in any version of the Sky Bully. 

      I've gone on record before and said I think this is going to be a two-three year slog to get back to even bothering the Champion League spots, unless we get every transfer window spot on in the next 18 months, a nigh on impossible task and not just because of financial implications but simply because sometimes transfers don't work out as is more than apparent from 2011 window.  My biggest problem is that despite a lot spouting the patience dogma, has our fan base really got the patience for this journey?  Or maybe they want Man City/Chelsea style spending, in which case, we need something that, for me, is abhorrent and that's a sugar daddy.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #71: Nov 17, 2012 01:30:41 pm
      why is it ok for some to speculate that Kenny had promised CL football and Brendan has not its sounds a bit of a stretch on both counts.
      There are also a number of people who think this squad was a basket case and needed pulling apart.I disagree you cant have a squad of idiots and reach 2 cup finals one maybe but 2 no chance.It proved to me that the squad lacked consistency and had also focused too heavily on the wembley games in the new year I maintain our league position was compromised heavily by the cup success.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #72: Nov 17, 2012 01:50:02 pm
      why is it ok for some to speculate that Kenny had promised CL football and Brendan has not its sounds a bit of a stretch on both counts.


      Why is it a stretch?  Kenny's league form after he took over from Roy was Champions League qualification worthy.  Do you think he went to the board and said buy me these players, I'll make us worse?  Now that's a stretch.  And as for Rodgers, he has always been clear about his expectations.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #73: Nov 17, 2012 03:04:02 pm
      And as for Rodgers, he has always been clear about his expectations.

      Thats fair game but it may matter little. We host Wigan today and for me its a bit of a 'must win'. If we get beat then even Rodgers expectations for the season will look like a pipedream to a lot of supporters and the murmers that suggest he is not the right man will become a little more common. The defeat and the murmers will not be ideal preperation for two away fixtures at Swansea and Tottenham.

      A win though will set us up nicely and keep our little unbeaten run going and set us up for our next games. If, between now and when the full time whistle blows at White Hart Lane, we have taken 7-9 points coherence for now will come naturally. On and off the field confidence will be high that a lot of points can be gained when looking at the ensuing fixtures that take us to the end of the year.

      The end of the year. We keep hearing the words 'January', 'window' and 'important' quite a lot but how much depends on that window?

      For me coherence for our owners depends on that window. Back the manager to the hilt and they are off the hook. Everybody will agree that the mistakes made over their first two years that John W Henry spoke about in September have been learnt from. You cannot just simply learn about a philosophy and tactical approach on paper and then identify some square and round pegs to fit in and make it function . To suit any system or tactical approach in football you need a squad that has a mix of guille, leadership, experience, ultra-fitness, tactical nouse, strength, speed, awareness, flair, arrogance, focus and so much more. I'm not the keenest follower of baseball but I do wonder how many of those qualities are present in a fully functional Baseball side's system.

      I hope he knows now that what worked in Boston will probably not work over here - tweaks need to be made.

      A good January for FSG will gain them a few new friends and coherence from some that at the moment do not want to give them. That will in turn take any excuse that could be used by Brendan Rodgers after a poor performance away from him when we are referring to personnel.

      Or it could be the start of us not even having to think of the words 'coherence' as it could trigger off the start of something beautiful.

      One thing I know is that it will bring the support back together because at the moment its all over the place. Its as if we are all walking together as best as we can but we're all adjoined only by shoe string as we walk forward. Just a couple are falling away as we continue to walk together but if we do not see any Golden Sky by the end of February then I can imagine the string will of broken in quite a few more places.

      I for one am hoping to see some Golden Sky in January.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #74: Nov 17, 2012 05:12:57 pm
      We are at that part of the season where a win can give you optimistic views about climibing the league. 3-0 over wigan today give sus a nice start to the christmas run in.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Coherence... please?
      Reply #75: Nov 17, 2012 05:33:12 pm
      We are at that part of the season where a win can give you optimistic views about climibing the league. 3-0 over wigan today give sus a nice start to the christmas run in.

      Indeed. Let's hope we can get on a serious run, grab a few players in January, and push on.

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