Good enough?

Sorry to jump in but yes, on a level with Spurs and Everton.. Because of the lack of a couple of bodies possibly just below Spuds but with the squad we have with the right tactics challenging for top 4 along with those..

Steve Clarke has West Brom over achieving... Well done, that's his job... Under achieving is more concerning than over achieving.
How has Clarkey got them over achieving? By making them difficult to beat.

If I look at the squads in the prem

3 are clear at the top - City , Chelsea and the Scum

Then there is two clubs that will battle for 4th right to the end - Spurs and Arsenal

Then there is Everton and Us who would have to rely on either Arsenal or Spurs to have a bad season to try and sneak into 4th but ultimately will fight out for the Europa spot

Then below that we have the true mid table teams who during the season over achieve and have a little stay amongst the other clubs - Stoke , Swansea , Newcastle , West Brom plus possible Fulham, West Ham and Sunderland

The rest of the teams are the teams who I expect to be the relegation candidates

Obviously during the odd occasions teams under or over perform

But that's where I believe it looks on paper.

Reina Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Johnson Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Enrique Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Wisdom Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Agger Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Skrtel Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Carragher Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Coates Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Lucas Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Gerrard Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Allen Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Sahin Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Shelvey Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Henderson Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Downing Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Assaidi Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Sterling Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Suarez Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Suso Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Cole Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

I think we have enough good players to finish better than last season. With Sturridge & Ince I believe we should be in the mix for that 4th spot till the very last game of the season.

Great topic and OP. I was one who mentioned the squad wasn't as good as people seem to think. At least not better than United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal or Spurs.

Brilliant: Just Luis Suarez, and even then he can be pretty inconsistent.

Great: Agger, Johnson, Gerrard (despite age and injury).

Good: Lucas (until he makes full recovery), Allen, Sahin, Skrtel, Enrique, Reina, Coates

Average: Downing, Cole, Shelvey, Henderson, Carragher, Assaidi,

No rating: Suso, Sterling, Wisdom, Borini (youth/few appearances to make an accurate judgement but would throw all of them in Average for now)

We've always massively overrated our squad and this year is no exception. Look at that list. Other than Suarez and Gerrard pitching in here and there, we have no one to score goals. Andy Carroll wouldn't have made that much of a difference either, before anyone suggests that.

At best, our squad is 6th in the league. I refuse to believe our squad is better than Arsenal's or Tottenham's.

I do mate.

When people are telling me that Henderson and/or Shelvey are natural replacements for Gerrard, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Enrique is the best left back in the league, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Lucas and Sahin can be as good as Alonso and Mascherano, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Allen is the nearest thing to Xavi, then I think our players are worse than people think.

They're just a few examples, but we've been guilty of overrating our own players for years. And underrating others just as much. Carlton Cole and Kenwyne Jones being berated non-stop by Liverpool fans whereas Skrtel and Agger have been hailed as the best partnership in the League, yet both Cole and Jones ran the best partnership in the League ragged.

It depends on where each persons thoughts on the current squad is..

I dont think this squad is a championship challenging squad, not by a long way.. But i do think that the core of it should be challenging the top 4 places, and with one or two signings then it should be taken as granted we are back in there or certainly pushing Spurs and Arsenal for 4th every year..

Its certainly not a squad that is mid table and struggling for consistency like it does and  so easy to play against..

Ive never thought Shelvey or Henderson will be the next Gerrard, we will be lucky to see another player as good as Gerrard in our lifetimes mate..

Ive never thought Sahin and Lucas would be as good as Macherano and Alonso

I never thought Enrique is the best left back in the league

The only person to talk about Allen and Xavi in the same breath is the gaffer

I personally have never rated Skrtel as highly as most reds do..

But as i said its better than 10th...........

What worries me, is the gaffer bought Borini, who struggled to do anything, then got injured, he bought Assaidi, who showed promise, but for some reason he didn't play him, and now he's out injured, he bought Sahin, and he is on the bench, he bought Allen, who has just spent the last two games on the bench.

So out of his four summer signings, none of them have made any sort of impact on the team.

Sahin has been on the bench injured, Allen has been on the bench because he needed a rest and I wonder if anyone has thought of how we might have been worse off when Lucas was injured had we not had Allen?

Borini has been injured and I for one think he'll come good. Assaidi I'm not sure why he hasn't gotten any time in League games.

Sahin has been on the bench injured, Allen has been on the bench because he needed a rest and I wonder if anyone has thought of how we might have been worse off when Lucas was injured had we not had Allen?

Borini has been injured and I for one think he'll come good. Assaidi I'm not sure why he hasn't gotten any time in League games.

I think Borini will be ok..

Allen has struggled overall due to the tactics the manager has deployed

Assaidi the talk is Rodgers doesnt rate him and he wasnt actually his signing

I think Borini will be ok..

Allen has struggled overall due to the tactics the manager has deployed

Assaidi the talk is Rodgers doesnt rate him and he wasnt actually his signing

It will be a mistake in my mind if Rodgers doesn't try and get Assaidi some time. I think he'd do very nice for us. Maybe not an out and out starter but good to come off the bench and spell Sterling or to start some games and give the starters a rest. He probably needs to develop his game a little more but it's not like he's light years worse than what we have at the position already.

It will be a mistake in my mind if Rodgers doesn't try and get Assaidi some time. I think he'd do very nice for us. Maybe not an out and out starter but good to come off the bench and spell Sterling or to start some games and give the starters a rest. He probably needs to develop his game a little more but it's not like he's light years worse than what we have at the position already.

Makes you wonder doesnt it?

I had heard he wont play him as he insists "if he hasnt brought the player it doesnt matter if he costs 35 million or 3 million he wont play him"

Makes you wonder doesnt it?

I had heard he wont play him as he insists "if he hasnt brought the player it doesnt matter if he costs 35 million or 3 million he wont play him"

I can understand not wanting to play someone that doesn't fit your style/tactics but he's done well enough in the cup games he's played. Anyway, not trying to turn this into an Assaidi thread...carry on.

I think Borini will be ok..

Allen has struggled overall due to the tactics the manager has deployed

Assaidi the talk is Rodgers doesnt rate him and he wasnt actually his signing

Allen has struggled due to what?

Allen has struggled due to what?

To have a massive impact on the season...

Ive said i feel the managers system is leading to the midfield being overun and caught on the back foot against the counter attack.. Not saying he has been poor, he has done ok but apart from tick over the play he hasnt done anything beyond that.. Had the tactics been better and we were more in control of the midfield i feel he could be a very good player for us

Is all

I do agree that our midfield hasnt dictating hardly any games this season but still believe that Lucas when fully fit and allen will prove to be pretty solid.
The issue to me is gerrard and where he plays.
Get that sorted with some additional attacking players, the defence restructured and we can start to build.
These are tough days for us all.

To try to give this some balance rather than ask good enough and rate the players in subjective words I decided to take all 4 squads, ours, Spuds, Bitters and the Arse and compare each player like for like discounting any injury or suspension. This should illustrate strength of squad, I did the same for what would be considered first XI a score of 1 for being the best in that position up to 4 to the worst out of the 4 squads.

                                Liverpool                            Arsenal                                 Tottenham                              Everton

Goalkeepers             Reina     (2)                         Szczesny     (4)                     Lloris         (1)                         Howard      (3)
                                Jones    (3)                          Fabianski     (2)                    Friedel       (1)                         Mucha        (4)
                                Doni      (2)                          Mannone      (3)                   Gomes       (1)                                           (4)
                         
Central Defenders    Agger     (1)                         Koscielny      (4)                   Dawson      (3)                        Jagielka     (2)
                                Skrtel     (2)                         Mertesacker  (4)                  Vertonghen(1)                         Distin        (3)
                                Coates   (4)                         Vermaelen    (1)                   Gallas        (3)                         Heitinga    (2)
                                Carragher(2)                       Djourou         (4)                  Caulker      (1)                         Duffy         (3)

Full Backs                 Johnson  (1)                        Sagna           (3)                   Walker         (4)                       Baines      (2)
                                Enrique   (1)                        Gibbs            (3)                   Essou-Ekotto(4)                       Hibbert     (2)
                                Kelly        (1)                        Jenkinson     (3)                   Naughton      (4)                      Coleman   (2)
                                Wisdom   (2)                        Santos         (3)                                         (4)                      Neville      (1)

Midfielders*             Gerrard    (4)                        Carzola        (3)                   Bale               (1)                     Fellaini       (2)
                                Lucas       (1)                        Arteta          (3)                   Parker           (2)                      Mirallas      (4)
                                Allen         (3)                       Wilshire        (2)                   Dembele        (1)                     Pienaar      (4)
                                Sahin        (4)                       Podolski       (1)                   Lennon         (2)                      Gibson       (3)
                                Sterling     (1)                       Ramsey        (2)                   Sigurdsson   (3)                      Hitzlesperger (4)
                                Downing   (4)                       OxladeC       (2)                   Sandro          (1)                     Osman       (3)

Strikers                    Suarez      (1)                       Giroud          (4)                   Defoe            (2)                     Jelavic        (4)
                                Carroll       (3)                       Walcott        (1)                   Adebayor      (2)                      Anichebe   (4)
                                Borini        (3)                        Chamakh     (4)                   Dempsey       (1)                     Naismith    (2)

*To give balance some wide players were needed to be included in with the midfielders

Totals for Squads:

                              Goalkeepers         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        Squad Total

Liverpool                         7                               9                          5                    17                    7                     45

Arsenal                            9                              13                        12                   13                    9                    56

Tottenham                       3                               8                         16                   10                    5                    42

Everton                           11                             10                        7                     20                   10                   58

Based upon that our squad strength is only slightly behind Tottenham's and both us and Spurs are well in front of Arsenal and Everton.

Using the same numbers but applying it only to First XI you would get something close to:-

                              Goalkeeper         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        First XI Total
                               
Liverpool                      2                             3                             2                    12                    4                     23

Arsenal                        4                              8                             6                     9                     5                     32
 
Tottenham                   1                             4                              8                     6                     4                     23

Everton                        3                             5                              4                    13                    8                     33

Using a 1-4-4-2 formation with squeezing Gerrard into a wide attacking area as our 4-3-3 seems to fit the most fair way and basically took the top players in each position that I personally judged it. It would seem that our first XI when matched in strength comes out level with Tottenham;s and ahead of Everton and Arsenal. Now granted I may be biased but I've tried to be as fair as I could with this to demonstrate it as fairly as I could.

No one else is the squad is of similar quality.

Jones, Doni, Carra, Enrique, Allen, Shelvey, Henderson,  Assiadi, Borini, Downing, Cole etc are all distinctivley average footballers.

Not one of them would have walked into our 08-09 squad let alone our starting XI with the exception of Carra who did.

Agree   Red.

I just do not accept some fans interpretation of Reina's season so far. He's been blamed for not saving when defensive errors gifted a goal and blamed when the opposition just scored a blinder of a goal. It's all too easy to bash the goalkeeper when we loose but after some initial mistakes, his season has generally been a good one. By extension, I think Gerrard is being overrated because, well, he's Steven Gerrard, when in truth he's only had one good game for us and that was against a very poor Fulham side. I also think it's unfair to judge Borini on the back of so few performances, at such a young age, coming in from a foreign league. Far more balanced to say the jury is still out on him.

I do agree with the general sentiment though that our squad is poor. There's no way Allen, Henderson, Shelvey, Downing or Cole would walk in to Man U, City, Chelsea, Arsenal or Spurs. Sterling has been one of our best players this year but really, is that more to do with the fact the rest of them are so poor? He has speed, he doesn't mind getting physical but he's no eye for goal and seems to lack the instinct of when to pass and when to shoot. He's very much an unfinished article and would not be a first team player where our squad so thread bear.

At the end of the day, this is all very subjective but I think most of us would agree our squad needs a total overhaul if we're to have any hope of playing in the CL again.

I think people are being harsh on Lucas and Borini. Lucas was injured for 6 months last season, he comes back, gets a little fitness but not any match fitness. Then gets another 3 month injury. Really not fair to judge his performances. Borini was a new signing who has started poorly, but got injured so again I think it is unfair to make a judgement.

Average is being kind.

Reina - Average
Jones - Average

Kelly - Average
Johnson - Brilliant
Wisdom - Average
Agger - Average
Skrtel - Average
Coates - Not enough games to judge
Carragher - Not enough games to judge
Enrique - Poor at the start but Brilliant in the last 6 weeks or so. For now: Good

Lucas - Not enough games to judge
Allen - Average
Sahin - Average (although played out of position)
Gerrard - sh*t in the first few months but improved lately: Average
Shelvey - Decent
Henderson - Average
Downing - sh*t
Cole - sh*t
Suso - Average
Sterling - Decent
Assaidi - Average

Borini - Not enough games to judge
Suarez - F***ing Fantastic

Says a lot that the only offensive players that has been acceptable is Suarez, all the rest haven't been good enough. The only player who'd actually get in our 2008 team is Suarez. Gerrard wouldn't with his decline. Sad looking at where our squad is compared to only 4 years ago.

It makes for poor reading when so many supporters describe most of our players as only average.This is a sad indictment of what has happened to our football club.People say football is a simple game but we are not able to get the simple things right.

It makes for poor reading when so many supporters describe most of our players as only average.This is a sad indictment of what has happened to our football club.People say football is a simple game but we are not able to get the simple things right.

You are completely right about the simple things.

I mean, we do have way too many average players. I bet in all your years watching Liverpool, you haven't seen us with such a week squad in over 50 years at least.

I think the problem is we overcomplicate things, and we don't have the same work rate and graft as we used to. I mean the team plays Villa at home, the players are already thinking we're gonna thrash them. Some fans think that too. Really need to change that mentality. Then I see our luck changing.

You are completely right about the simple things.

I mean, we do have way too many average players. I bet in all your years watching Liverpool, you haven't seen us with such a week squad in over 50 years at least.

I think the problem is we overcomplicate things, and we don't have the same work rate and graft as we used to. I mean the team plays Villa at home, the players are already thinking we're gonna thrash them. Some fans think that too. Really need to change that mentality. Then I see our luck changing.

The only comparison I can make is in the 1950s when we were relegated to the old 2nd division,the manager we had in those days was Don Welsh who I never rated as a manager.On reflection we were relrgated because so many of our players had got old together and were not replaced .I refer to the likes of Cyril Sidlow Ray Lambert,Bill Jones,Bob Paisley,Phil Taylor,Jack Balmer,Willie Fagan and in fairness to the club we had lost 7 years of football due to the 2nd world war.I thank god that we still had Billy Liddell who played on for a few years longer or who knows what would of happened without Billy.Hope this gives a bit of an insight into those days.

The only comparison I can make is in the 1950s when we were relegated to the old 2nd division,the manager we had in those days was Don Welsh who I never rated as a manager.On reflection we were relrgated because so many of our players had got old together and were not replaced .I refer to the likes of Cyril Sidlow Ray Lambert,Bill Jones,Bob Paisley,Phil Taylor,Jack Balmer,Willie Fagan and in fairness to the club we had lost 7 years of football due to the 2nd world war.I thank god that we still had Billy Liddell who played on for a few years longer or who knows what would of happened without Billy.Hope this gives a bit of an insight into those days.

Nice story mate .

Billy Liddell was a very loyal player. Unfortunately those players are disappearing rapidly, all for a quick payday.

Thankfully we won't get relegated this season, thinking of a positive haha.

I mean the team plays Villa at home, the players are already thinking we're gonna thrash them. Some fans think that too. Really need to change that mentality. Then I see our luck changing.

We should be thinking we are going to trash the likes of Villa.

They are sh*te and their results over the last week or so have proven that.

Players definitely shouldnt take wins for granted but I'd like to think they are going out thinking they are better than the likes of Villa.

We should be thinking we are going to trash the likes of Villa.

They are sh*te ans their results over the last week or so have proven that.

Players definitely shouldnt take wins for granted but I'd like to think they are going out thinking they are better than the likes of Villa.

I wasn't really meaning it like that mate.

I was thinking more along the lines of the fact we shouldn't be assuming a team like Villa will let us walk over them. The fact we can't be lazy.

In terms of ability we should walk all over them, but we sometimes lose against teams who we should beat because they work that 10% harder. I was thinking like that mate.

Some depressing stats from the BBC website going into todays game:

•The Reds will end 2012 with their fewest number of league victories in a calendar year. They are currently on 11; their previous low was 14 in 2010.

•They have also lost 17 league matches in 2012, three more than in any other year.

So this proves we are not good enough, albeit the players, management or both (and I include Kenny's final few months in that)!