The great big Rafa debate

I wont start a new thread cos I always get it moved  

http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/rafa-benitez-or-hicks-gillett-who-is.html

The sources of information quoted in this article are links from the original article web page.

Stick this in the mix !

Monday, May 17, 2010
Rafa Benitez or Hicks + Gillett: Who is costing Liverpool FC the most money?

According to the massively biased media and growing numbers of misinformed fans, Tom Hicks and George Gillett are the cause of all of Liverpool FC’s financial problems.
Is this really true though?
As I will illustrate, the reality that the Pro-Benitez Cult refuse to accept is that Benitez has cost Liverpool FC significantly more money over the last year than the club’s much-maligned owners.

Sources for the following figures:

1. Official UEFA Report detailing current CL money awards

2. Official UEFA Revenue Distribution Report

3. Official FA Prize Fund report

4. Official accounts for LFC and Athletic Grounds Ltd (the CLUB) for 2009.

My aim is to illustrate:

1. How Rafa Benitez has cost the club more money than Hicks and Gillett in the last year.

2. How Benitez will cost the club more money than H+G in the coming year.

The Club

The club = Liverpool FC + Athletics Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL).
Not Kop Football Ltd.
Not Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd.
Not Kop (Cayman) Ltd.

Any losses I highlight here come directly out of the club itself.

The Reasonable Expectations

Taking into account the quality of the club's squad, and past footballing performance under Benitez, I submit that at the start of last season (2009-10), it was reasonable to expect the following;

1. Qualification for the Quarter-finals of the CL.  

2. Qualification for (at least) the 5th round of the FA Cup.

3. Quaification for next season's Champions League competition.

At the end of season 2008-9 (when we finished 2nd) I have no doubt that most - if not all - fans would've agree with the above 3 expectations.
As such, I have outlined the losses the club has accrued as a result of not meeting the reasonable (conservative) expectations above.

Fans should think about the following figures the next time they want to blame someone for the lack of money available for transfer funds.

So, without further ado:

HICKS + GILLETT

£9.3m - Interest payments from LFCAGL to Kop Football Limited.

*KFL has loaned LFCAGL a total of £100.8m. £9.3m is the TOTAL amount of money paid by the club to one of H+G's holding companies over the last year.

This constitutes ALL the money that H+G have directly cost the CLUB in the last financial year. Any other figure advanced is, quite simply, wrong.

RAFA BENITEZ

General losses

£4.3m – Termination payments for sacked staff sacked, plus Rick Parry's pay-off.

Benitez sacked large numbers of the club’s backroom staff in the last year, including 16 in one go. He also lobbied to have Rick Parry kicked out of Anfield, and this was achieved. All of this costs money though, and as the club accounts illustrate, the total cost of the changes Benitez wanted amounted to £4.3m.

Champions League losses

I’ve estimated this conservatively, not including potential losses from making it to the semi-final/final of the CL. Given the club’s record in the competition under Benitez, progress to the quarter-final is not an unreasonable expectation:

€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL

€ 3m - Failure to qualify for next season’s CL
€ 2.4m - Loss of potential revenue from the group stage of next season’s CL
€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL

€23.2m - Projected loss of CL television money next season (This is the figure LFC made this season in CL money)

TOTAL CL LOSSES = €38m

Converted to pounds = £32.4

* Figures are stated in the UEFA Report referenced in the sources section at the start of this article.

FA CUP

Again, I've estimated this conservatively, only including figures up to the fifth round stage (in line with the expectations I proposed at the start of this article).

£67,500 - Loss for failing to win the third round tie.
£90,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fourth Round tie.
£180,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fifth Round tie.


FA CUP Television Fees

£222.7 - Fourth Round TV revenue loss
£377.4 - Fifth Round TV revenure loss

TOTAL FA CUP LOSSES = £937.5K

TOTAL PROJECTED LOSSES ATTRIBUTABLE TO RAFA BENITEZ = £37.5m

* This figure will, of course, be offset by gains in the Europa League (£900k this season - potentially £3-4m next season if we go all the way).

* That still doesn't change the fact that the club's turnover and profit margin will take a huge hit next season a result of this season's atrocious performance.

* The squad was more than strong enough to finish in the top 4 this season.
   The failure to achieve that reasonable expectation lies mainly with Rafa Benitez.

It's all too easy just to blame the club's lack of spending power on Hicks and Gillett, but as I've illustrated, Rafa Benitez has cost the club a hell of a lot more money.

Having said all that, Hicks and Gillett may potentially cost the club a further £10-£16m if/when Benitez is sacked.

Handing him a new 5 year contract last year was an act of unbelievable negligence on the part of the Owners.

Jaimie Kanwar

By Jaimie Kanwar - Monday, May 17, 2010











Oooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooo !

(Tomahawk time again!)

Jaimie Kanwar say no more

Can sh*t posted by Kanwar be banned from this forum as well? He's got one of the biggest blinkered agendas out there. That "article" is insulting.

Can sh*t posted by Kanwar be banned from this forum as well? He's got one of the biggest blinkered agendas out there. That "article" is insulting.

What the article fails to point out is that Hicks & Gillet reduced their bank loan from £350 million to £290 million, but only because their offshore Cayman Islands-listed parent company (Kop Cayman) increased its loan to the club by £86.2 million to £144.4 million. That loan, on which Liverpool has to pay 10 per cent interest, is likely to have increased.

So they are costing us interest on a loan from our parent company too.

Kanwars a fucknut who has an Agenda, I mean on the back of our most successful point hauls in a league campaign in 20 years who could really say Handing him a new 5 year contract last year was an act of unbelievable negligence on the part of the Owners. ?, if that does not show his agenda clearly I don't know what does.

I hate Kanwar with a passion, but the figures he's stated are fact about the cost of failing to qualify for Champions League etc. The revenue from the Champions League is vital in sustaining any ambitions that a Club holds. Yes, Kanwar is biased, but some of his articles are quite accurate when it comes to the financial implications. It would be foolish to dismiss facts, even though he has a history of publishing sh*te, and we all know he is against Rafa, and chooses to tell only part of any given story. It just so happens that the financial implications are true.

His overall thesis was basically blaming Rafa more than our owners. That's the insult. He may have some figures right, but he is still taking pressure off the owners, basically. If he wants to write an article about "Who's costing LFC more" then he's gotta encompass the WHOLE picture, not just take in what helps his blatant anti-Rafa agenda.

Spurs have failed to qualify for the CL year after year but have finally made it, but after constant failure they weren't looking down the Barrell of financial dispair like us. So that proves are problems are not linked to the CL. The bigger picture is the mis management of the club as a whole as a business and the huge leveraging of finances against the club and the constant re-financing on ever worsening short term interest rates. This is an absolute crap way to finance any takeover and then running of a large organisation.  The CL doesn't help but it is a smokescreen to the appalling way the club has been taken over and run in the last few years.

BigV, i know where you're coming from mate, i really do. I have read the article posted and taken from it what i accepted as truth. That's why i have dismissed the bullshit about the owners, we all know the score on that situation. What Rafa is responsible for though, is our failure this season to qualify for the knockout stages of the Champions League, our failure to dispose of a struggling Championship side in the FA Cup, our failure to beat an Arsenal reserve side in the Coca Cola Cup, and most importantly, our failure to qualify for next seasons Champions League.

One of Rafa's main failings this season has been his underestimation of supposedly inferior opponents in the Premier League. I know we've suffered an injury curse this season, but Rafa chose to play left backs and right backs in midfield and out wide, when we had Pacheco chomping at the bit. I really wonder what goes through his mind sometimes, i really do. I've yet to compile an end of season assessment for Rafael Benitez the football manager, but F**k me, it's going to be hard to defend some of the tactical decisions he's made this season. Yes, he can be a tactical genius the majority of the time, but sometimes he can be a tactical numpty too.

The only good thing to come out of our failure to finish fourth is that it has forced the owners to shut up shop, but at what cost?. I am really scared what the future holds for us.

The Club

The club = Liverpool FC + Athletics Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL).
Not Kop Football Ltd.
Not Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd.
Not Kop (Cayman) Ltd.

Any losses I highlight here come directly out of the club itself.

^^^ Bollocks as the ones I have highlighted take money directly from the club in terms of reducing the debt from loans.

Now I do not doubt Kanwars figures on the revenue we are missing out on, however I believe he is not including the above as that tips his argument totally in favour of Rafa, the mans a tool considering Kop-Cayman our parent company, our parent company that is owned by Beavis and F***ing Butt Head charge us 10% interest on loans, loans to pay off the debt that funnily enough they leveraged against us when buying the club in the first place.

I'd like to have figures of all the top 4 teams and what kind of money they had available to spend. From my point of view Rafa never got near his top-wish players except Torres. I also think that Rafa did not only undoubtly improve our squad over the years but also did bring Liverpool back to the top table - eye in eye with ManU, Real or Barca. Of course if you're a coach for many years, you will always have one or two "bad" seasons. That's no chess here, that's football. So IMHO there's no doubt we should continue to trust Rafa...not only because there are no real better coaches available anyway, but also because what this club needs is continuity...we need a coach like Fergie that trains for 10+ years and we need an owner like Abramow. who supports his team for years and with good faith.

The day we get rid of the US boys is day one on our mission to a PL title. Before there's no way. I'm sorry for Carra & Gerrard who kept loyal to the team but never will accomplish their "dream" since Liverpool is just 3-4 years away now (or one real whopping spending from a new owner) from a title race.

At least ManU hasn't overtaken us in PL titles overall...that's something I can smile upon.

Some top quality posting there mates,shows that LFC fans are a cut above.Of course Rafa is not blameless for some of last seasons failures,but the game now is about investment.It's business first ,pride second.When youv'e got the wrong owners, it doesn't matter how good your'e manager is.The best manager in the world will fail at any club with the wrong owners.IMO last season was our make or break season,we were so close,but ended up so far away.The Manager had the bollocks,but the owners defaulted.Injuries occured as fans on here predicted,the manager tried to patch up the shortcomings and failed.Then the players looked for escape routes.Is Rafa to blame,yes because he is the manager,we all respect him for his commitment,but faced with un-tenable working conditions,ie, no transfer budget ,he should have walked last year.It is to his professionalism, that he stayed against these odds,I personally hope that he is given the chance with proper owners.

I wont start a new thread cos I always get it moved   

http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/05/rafa-benitez-or-hicks-gillett-who-is.html

The sources of information quoted in this article are links from the original article web page.

Stick this in the mix !

Monday, May 17, 2010
Rafa Benitez or Hicks + Gillett: Who is costing Liverpool FC the most money?

According to the massively biased media and growing numbers of misinformed fans, Tom Hicks and George Gillett are the cause of all of Liverpool FC’s financial problems.
Is this really true though?
As I will illustrate, the reality that the Pro-Benitez Cult refuse to accept is that Benitez has cost Liverpool FC significantly more money over the last year than the club’s much-maligned owners.

Sources for the following figures:

1. Official UEFA Report detailing current CL money awards

2. Official UEFA Revenue Distribution Report

3. Official FA Prize Fund report

4. Official accounts for LFC and Athletic Grounds Ltd (the CLUB) for 2009.

My aim is to illustrate:

1. How Rafa Benitez has cost the club more money than Hicks and Gillett in the last year.

2. How Benitez will cost the club more money than H+G in the coming year.

The Club

The club = Liverpool FC + Athletics Grounds Ltd (LFCAGL).
Not Kop Football Ltd.
Not Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd.
Not Kop (Cayman) Ltd.

Any losses I highlight here come directly out of the club itself.

The Reasonable Expectations

Taking into account the quality of the club's squad, and past footballing performance under Benitez, I submit that at the start of last season (2009-10), it was reasonable to expect the following;

1. Qualification for the Quarter-finals of the CL. 

2. Qualification for (at least) the 5th round of the FA Cup.

3. Quaification for next season's Champions League competition.

At the end of season 2008-9 (when we finished 2nd) I have no doubt that most - if not all - fans would've agree with the above 3 expectations.
As such, I have outlined the losses the club has accrued as a result of not meeting the reasonable (conservative) expectations above.

Fans should think about the following figures the next time they want to blame someone for the lack of money available for transfer funds.

So, without further ado:

HICKS + GILLETT

£9.3m - Interest payments from LFCAGL to Kop Football Limited.

*KFL has loaned LFCAGL a total of £100.8m. £9.3m is the TOTAL amount of money paid by the club to one of H+G's holding companies over the last year.

This constitutes ALL the money that H+G have directly cost the CLUB in the last financial year. Any other figure advanced is, quite simply, wrong.

RAFA BENITEZ

General losses

£4.3m – Termination payments for sacked staff sacked, plus Rick Parry's pay-off.

Benitez sacked large numbers of the club’s backroom staff in the last year, including 16 in one go. He also lobbied to have Rick Parry kicked out of Anfield, and this was achieved. All of this costs money though, and as the club accounts illustrate, the total cost of the changes Benitez wanted amounted to £4.3m.

Champions League losses

I’ve estimated this conservatively, not including potential losses from making it to the semi-final/final of the CL. Given the club’s record in the competition under Benitez, progress to the quarter-final is not an unreasonable expectation:

€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL

€ 3m - Failure to qualify for next season’s CL
€ 2.4m - Loss of potential revenue from the group stage of next season’s CL
€ 2.2m - Failure to qualify for the Second phase of the CL
€ 2.5m - Failure to qualify for Quarter Finals of the CL

€23.2m - Projected loss of CL television money next season (This is the figure LFC made this season in CL money)

TOTAL CL LOSSES = €38m

Converted to pounds = £32.4

* Figures are stated in the UEFA Report referenced in the sources section at the start of this article.

FA CUP

Again, I've estimated this conservatively, only including figures up to the fifth round stage (in line with the expectations I proposed at the start of this article).

£67,500 - Loss for failing to win the third round tie.
£90,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fourth Round tie.
£180,000 - Loss for failing to qualify for (and win) the Fifth Round tie.


FA CUP Television Fees

£222.7 - Fourth Round TV revenue loss
£377.4 - Fifth Round TV revenure loss

TOTAL FA CUP LOSSES = £937.5K

TOTAL PROJECTED LOSSES ATTRIBUTABLE TO RAFA BENITEZ = £37.5m

* This figure will, of course, be offset by gains in the Europa League (£900k this season - potentially £3-4m next season if we go all the way).

* That still doesn't change the fact that the club's turnover and profit margin will take a huge hit next season a result of this season's atrocious performance.

* The squad was more than strong enough to finish in the top 4 this season.
   The failure to achieve that reasonable expectation lies mainly with Rafa Benitez.

It's all too easy just to blame the club's lack of spending power on Hicks and Gillett, but as I've illustrated, Rafa Benitez has cost the club a hell of a lot more money.

Having said all that, Hicks and Gillett may potentially cost the club a further £10-£16m if/when Benitez is sacked.

Handing him a new 5 year contract last year was an act of unbelievable negligence on the part of the Owners.

Jaimie Kanwar

By Jaimie Kanwar - Monday, May 17, 2010











Oooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooo !

(Tomahawk time again!)

Lose the link to that F***ing site, the fella's a c**t with mates and links to Republik of Mancunia website (which also sells some tasteful t-shirts dedicated to us) and prints the most pathetic sh*te ever, continually runs down SOS and is in short a complete embarrassment to any sane Liverpool fan.

I personally prefer a hatchet to a tomahawk!!

How the F**k do you put a price on killing the club's motivation to win things?  It's obvious to anyone connected to the club that their priority is to reduce their debts at the cost of investing in the squad.  What message is that sending to the players?  Please put a monetary value on that.  Rafa has fu**ed up this year, no questions about it.  He is not solely to blame though.  Overachieving for five whole seasons prior to that and laying the foundations for the future has, in my eyes and many other fan's eyes, earned him another bite at the cherry without being financially held back.  Benitez has slowly built a team up and we were starting to come good (record points tally/youth academy overhaul/multiple world class players).

Not only were we playing catch up from the last era, but we were growing at a rate larger than the EPL as a whole and the other big four teams on a far smaller budget.  Chelsea spent huuuuuuge amounts becoming competitive, Man U have been doing it for years, their foundations have been in place and they have stability, Ferguson has been there for 20 years.  Arsenal are now seeing the benefits of players bought how many years ago?  Wenger has done very little in his 10-15 (?) years at Arsenal, but he's built the foundations for the future.  You can't just throw money at a club and expect it to be successful, look at Real Madrid, £250m last summer for what?  Rafa started building these foundations and because of our proud history as the most successful club in English history, our expectations of the club greatly exceed our spending potential thanks to, you guessed it, two F***ing cu*ts who saddled our club with unneccessary debt, lies and mistrust all to make a quick buck.

From a professional point of view, Rafa shouldn't be here.  If I was one of the best in the game at my chosen field, I'd want to work with other people who are similarly the best in their chosen field (managers/owners).  The fact he's even entertaining the idea of staying here speaks volumes about the man and how much he gives a sh*t about this club.  Look at the bigger picture and realise this.  Now before some dipshit says he hasn't committed himself to the club, ask yourself this.  If you were the manager of generic Spanish team who have a proud history and good supporters but let's face it, you're not a lifelong fan who loves the club with all you've got, would you make a commitment to stay under these circumstances?  No, any sane professional wouldn't.  It's a different story for some of us, we support Liverpool 110% and have a vested emotional interest in the club.  Any interest in the club from Rafa is either professional, personal or acquired.

I agree with Sebby to be honest the persistence with Lucas, Kuyt and Insua cost us loads of points this season however I can't really use that as a stick to beat Rafa with as his selections at times were more often than not forced due to injuries.

Can probably add persistently playing an out of form Gerrard & Carragher (cost us a fair few this season) to that list, IF you're going to talk about players losing us points.  I know it's hard to say, they're local lads, but it shouldn't make them immune from the discussion.

£4.3m – Termination payments for sacked staff sacked, plus Rick Parry's pay-off.

Bit of a f'n liberty putting Parry in this part - he cost the club so F***ing much by not doing his job.  He financial nouse has been shown up by Christian Purslow's (even if I think he's a snake in the grass/possible 'senior source) sponsorship deals and revenue improvements and Parry was a board member, factor that into H & G's losses.

Haha Jamie Kanwar. This is what we're coming down to.

I suppose it was Rafa who got an approved loan from RBS. Then Wachovia. Then an offshore company.

Silly me.

Yanks in. Rafa out.

I’ve estimated this conservatively, not including potential losses from making it to the semi-final/final of the CL. Given the club’s record in the competition under Benitez, progress to the quarter-final is not an unreasonable expectation:

So essentially what he's saying is that Rafa is the victim of his own success? If we had a lesser manager with a less impressive CL record, we would not have expected so much this season?
Tit.

Doesn't Kanwar work for one of Hick's & Gillett's PR companies?

Haha Jamie Kanwar. This is what we're coming down to.

I suppose it was Rafa who got an approved loan from RBS. Then Wachovia. Then an offshore company.

Silly me.

Yanks in. Rafa out.

Spot on, the post forgot about all the money Rafa has brought in wit his success in champions league year after year (until now) but even then we got Eufa Semi Final !.

Also all the money he has saved in transfer deals, esp. the past 2 years. net spend is negative !

We could have been in much more bother had it not been for Rafa.

IMO.

Then an offshore company.

The offshore company you refer to is our parent company KOP Caymen, so basically what Tom & George have done is loaned the club money from our parent company to pay down the levels of debt they placed upon us through their leveraged buyout and now they are no charging the club 10% interest although this is likely to have increased for the pleasure.

unfortunately I feel if inter come in for him, he wouldnt be able to resist!

Kanwar hates Rafa and he thinks the owners have done a good job so that says it all about Kanwar, whenever he says anything you can bet he builds the owners up and knocks Rafa down, he is a fool to believe we'll buy into his nonsense so don't read anything he says is best, you never know when these owners go they just may take this guy with them as their PR man.

How the f**k do you put a price on killing the club's motivation to win things?  It's obvious to anyone connected to the club that their priority is to reduce their debts at the cost of investing in the squad.  What message is that sending to the players?  Please put a monetary value on that.  Rafa has fu**ed up this year, no questions about it.  He is not solely to blame though.  Overachieving for five whole seasons prior to that and laying the foundations for the future has, in my eyes and many other fan's eyes, earned him another bite at the cherry without being financially held back.  Benitez has slowly built a team up and we were starting to come good (record points tally/youth academy overhaul/multiple world class players).

Not only were we playing catch up from the last era, but we were growing at a rate larger than the EPL as a whole and the other big four teams on a far smaller budget.  Chelsea spent huuuuuuge amounts becoming competitive, Man U have been doing it for years, their foundations have been in place and they have stability, Ferguson has been there for 20 years.  Arsenal are now seeing the benefits of players bought how many years ago?  Wenger has done very little in his 10-15 (?) years at Arsenal, but he's built the foundations for the future.  You can't just throw money at a club and expect it to be successful, look at Real Madrid, £250m last summer for what?  Rafa started building these foundations and because of our proud history as the most successful club in English history, our expectations of the club greatly exceed our spending potential thanks to, you guessed it, two f**king cu*ts who saddled our club with unneccessary debt, lies and mistrust all to make a quick buck.

From a professional point of view, Rafa shouldn't be here.  If I was one of the best in the game at my chosen field, I'd want to work with other people who are similarly the best in their chosen field (managers/owners).  The fact he's even entertaining the idea of staying here speaks volumes about the man and how much he gives a sh*t about this club.  Look at the bigger picture and realise this.  Now before some dipshit says he hasn't committed himself to the club, ask yourself this.  If you were the manager of generic Spanish team who have a proud history and good supporters but let's face it, you're not a lifelong fan who loves the club with all you've got, would you make a commitment to stay under these circumstances?  No, any sane professional wouldn't.  It's a different story for some of us, we support Liverpool 110% and have a vested emotional interest in the club.  Any interest in the club from Rafa is either professional, personal or acquired.

Great post majstore!

It is what I've been trying to get across.

I have woken up and smell the coffee. to put it plainly, we're in a mess, and if nobody's helping us, we must help ourself, not having a self pity would be a good start. We are LFC "DESPITE" all the sh*te.

The more we make excuses, subconsciously it justifies players as they think that even the fans understand if they're not performing.

We have to have double standard on this one, one for the yanks and one for the players.

Angelicrayment, Why can't you see what 95% of Liverpool supporters agree that IT IS all about money these days, It has been mentioned before that the so called special one can and would only work with a club who has plenty to spend in any transfer window, Hence Abramovich turfing him out for not delivering the CL, You say that Rafa has spent as much as that arrogant kunt Ferguson, I'm sorry but what bollocks you spout, He has been at 'ol toilet' since '86' Rafa has been boss six yrs, How the hell can he have spent as much, Add to that in six yrs we have won the CL, Super cup and a FA cup and not to mention another CL final, Not a bad return when you consider the sh*te Rafa has had to endure from our so called saviours, The very people who promised a new 67,000 seater stadium, The funds to make LFC the best team in the world again, But what have they actually given us? We are in a worse state now than when they took over, We have been going backwards while others have been going forwards, The league positions do not lie, We finished 2nd last season, 7th this season, WHY???,  No investment, NO NEW SIGNINGS, NO one brought in to strenghthen the already depleted squad, Thats fact, No bullshit, It is a sad indictment that clubs need money more than anything else, But thats just Football today, And unless you want to support the likes of  Tranmere, Rotherham et al( no disrespect to those two clubs) thats where you will end up, Running a football club is a business and is a separate entity to a club, Take money from a business and under fund that business it will go under, Rafa is the manager of that business yet he is expected to operate at a profit without having the man power to carry out the weekly tasks to carry the business forward and to reach the top of the tree.  Why can't you understand that??