Trending Topics

      Next match: Villa v LFC [Premier League] Mon 13th May @ 8:00 pm
      Villa Park

      Today is the 8th of May and on this date LFC's match record is P20 W12 D4 L4

      LFC Reds Poll

      Q. Is Rafa the right man?

      Yes
      (74.5%)
      No
      (25.5%)

      The great big Rafa debate

      Read 472013 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      JD
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 39,660 posts | 6955 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7199: May 18, 2010 02:35:27 pm
      That article is the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever had the opportunity to gloss over.

      He completely forgets the fact that when you stop investing in the squad your results deteriorate.

      What he fails to gloss over is the fact that Rafa Benitez has brought more money in to the club in the last 6 years through PL and 5 years of Champions League football (including a semi and two finals) than he has spent net on players.

      Meanwhile the owners have wasted £110M on bank interest in 3 years, and saddled the club with around £250M of debt that it never needed in the first place.

      Like I said, a complete waste of my valuable day reading his bullshit.
      Dadorious
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,882 posts | 1545 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7200: May 18, 2010 02:40:58 pm
      To be honest mate I saw it was Kanwar, took a deep breath, farted and moved on to the next topic without needing to read a word more other then the authors last name.
      Reprobate
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,055 posts | 436 
      • Avatar by Kitster29@Deviantart.com
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7201: May 18, 2010 02:44:37 pm
      To be honest mate I saw it was Kanwar, took a deep breath, farted and moved on to the next topic without needing to read a word more other then the authors last name.
      If the next topic is 'The money will be there, but not for rafa', I wouldn't bother!
      carragerrard
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,584 posts | 94 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7202: May 18, 2010 11:25:23 pm
      saw that article  yesterday, and i replied in various post there with username" thekop"
       I COULD SENSE THE HATRED THIS TW*T HAS FOR RAFA , and i say liverpool in this case  by defending the 2 american tw*ts like him, so i could not bother replying again



       for a change just saw this ,  like other articles don't know if its true or not ==

      Liverpool preparing double swoop for experienced duo
      Despite being broke and the club in turmoil, Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez is not only staying at Anfield but intends to bring in new players even if he has to now seek approval from the clubs chairman Martin Broughton.

      Liverpool will have a modest transfer budget for next season according to reports from financial websites (yes from financial websites) who have been reporting on Liverpool’s precarious financial state all season and the club will not be selling either Steven Gerrard or Fernando Torres but actually strengthening the squad with experienced Internationals.

      Rafa Benitez is keen on Manchester City’s Steven Ireland and Chelsea’s Joe Cole, reports had surfaced that Liverpool could not meet Cole’s wage demands, however with Tottenham also baulking at Cole’s demands and his current club Chelsea not prepared to pay Cole what he wants the player now has to lower his financial demands.

      The only problem for Liverpool is that Cole wants Champions League football something that Liverpool can no longer offer, that however is seen as a mild stumbling block and while Spurs remain favourites to end up with Cole, he could still end up at Anfield now that Benitez’s future is sorted and the almost certainty that Torres and Gerrard will remain Liverpool players.

      Stephen Ireland wants out of Manchester City desperately, he is unhappy there and Liverpool have been linked with the player on a regular basis, City are prepared to listen to offers for Ireland who has accepted that he will not figure in Roberto Mancini’s plans next season and again Benitez will face stiff competition from Harry Redknapp’s Tottenham.

      The advantage this time for Liverpool though is that Ireland wants to remain in the North of England and that has put Liverpool in the driving seat but and it is a big but, Man Utd are also said to be interested in the Man City midfielder and a move from Sir Alex Ferguson is seen as a bigger obstacle than a bid from Tottenham.

      It at least appears that things are starting to settle down at Anfield, he club is now looking forward with a more positive outlook and the doom merchants that were writing off both Rafa Benitez and Liverpool may find that they have jumped the gun somewhat


      http://www.footylatest.com/liverpool-preparing-double-swoop-for-experienced-duo/14263
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7203: May 19, 2010 11:12:21 am
      fraggle786
      • Forum John Toshack
      • ***

      • 271 posts | 15 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7204: May 19, 2010 11:46:07 am
      I saw the following article, thought it might help remove the cobwebs from the brains of Angelicrayment and Aliphone (doubt it will make any differance tho), whatever the case, pro-rafa or anti-rafa, it makes for chilling read. The future with or without Benitez looks very bleak for LFC and just goes to re-inforce everything that many fans already know.

      In six months, the Benitez era will seem like a golden age

      In the dressing room and on the balance sheet, Liverpool have fallen over the edge, writes Dion Fanning
      Sunday May 09 2010

      If Liverpool thought this season was bad, the summer may have them looking back wistfully. The release of their latest financial figures might shake some sense into those who think that Rafael Benitez's possible departure will make things better. Liverpool, as the figures show, are in great peril. In six months, the Benitez era will seem like a golden age.

      The idea that Jose Mourinho can be parachuted in to save the club should crash up against the reality of these numbers. For the second successive year, the auditors, KPMG, expressed "material uncertainty" about Liverpool's ability to continue as a going concern.

      The new chairman Martin Broughton has had to appear before the Premier League to give a guarantee, which had to be backed up by the banks, that Liverpool will be able to fulfil their fixtures next season (anyone who saw Liverpool's performance in Portsmouth this season may question if that guarantee was given last season). Yet some people cling to the view that Liverpool need simply to sign a new full-back. There is no quick-fix for Liverpool. There may be no slow-fix either.

      This weekend, it does not seem as inevitable that Benitez will leave. At this stage, the decay has affected him so profoundly that it would be no bad thing for him to go. At the very least, his departure would allow those who criticise his management to understand slowly what he was up against. Alan Curbishley won't be able to do much better.

      On Friday, an internet campaign launched by a Liverpool forum resulted in journalists receiving hundreds of emails from supporters backing Benitez. It is customary for their loyalty to be applauded slightly patronisingly at this point before asking at what other club would a manager be backed in this way?

      Benitez earned their loyalty by providing as magical a night as any Liverpool fan has experienced in Istanbul, defying Chelsea in the semi-final and challenging for the title last season. He earned their loyalty by being misunderstood, as Liverpool people feel they are, and he earned their devotion by rumbling Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

      So when they chant his name or send an email, they are not displaying blind devotion. They are acknowledging the complications of managing a club that has no future until things change and recognising that Benitez has, imperfectly, managed until this season somehow to keep Liverpool competitive.

      Once Liverpool's players started spinning about the race for fourth and once Benitez started talking about how the value of the club had increased during his time at Anfield, then things were destined to unravel. That was not Benitez's racket. At his best, he felt no need to point to his record because he didn't respect the people who were looking it up.

      They were wrong about everything: wrong about his transfer record, wrong about rotation, wrong about how often he rested Torres. Yet they never shut up and they wore Benitez down. The reasons Rafael Benitez is no longer the right manager for Liverpool are exactly the same as the reasons he was such a successful manager of Liverpool. His stubbornness allowed him to ignore the voices that told him he should buy Michael Owen or play Steven Gerrard in his "favoured" central midfield position.

      Then he became distracted and demented by the financial position and gaining control. His attempt to sell Xabi Alonso was a disaster -- not because Alonso was in sparkling form and it made no sense -- but because his return to form was achieved not by coaxing the best from him but by instilling a sense of resentment that made his departure inevitable.

      One of the key tenets of Benitez's philosophy is that he does not get close to the players. There is nothing wrong with that but it works best if the manager does not hold resentments if the players react to that distance, as Alonso did. The sadness in the fracturing of the relationship with the player once known as 'Son of Rafa' was compounded when, having taken the biggest risk of his career at Liverpool, Benitez barely saw any of the transfer fee.

      Instead, he was forced to gamble on a fragile player like Alberto Aquilani and the pressure was on once it quickly became apparent that the title would not be achieved as many had expected. Benitez had been exhausted by the battles he had to fight. He was contaminated by the bullshit coming down the line and the players appear to have had enough.

      Just as his success masked the dysfunction of the regime he was employed by, his failures have hidden them too. Benitez took on Hicks and Gillett and paid the price: not the loss of his job but the loss of his vision of what the team should be. Like all obsessives, he is always at risk of losing touch with reality.

      Liverpool, out of the top four and with their most glorious footballer Fernando Torres agonising over his future, have more chance of sinking further next season than they do of reclaiming a Champions League place.

      Torres is not bigger than the club, the old cliché that may yet be used by the accountants this summer after he makes an impact on the balance sheet, but there is a strong case to be made that it stands or falls with him right now. For many reasons, Torres is no ordinary footballer. He is loyal and curious about his surroundings. His talent ensured he would be a favourite at Liverpool, but his heart quickly bound him to Anfield. His disillusionment, not about last season, but about the future, is likely to see him leave in the summer. Even if the banks were to allow Liverpool to replace him, he is irreplaceable.

      Broughton has announced that Liverpool do not need to sell him to service their debts but when £85m has been paid in interest since 2007, the needs of the money men can sometimes become insatiable.

      Torres will have his choices and he may decide, despite their failure to qualify for the Champions League, that Manchester City are the best option. Certainly, they can offer a challenge in the future that Liverpool cannot. If they could persuade Torres then it would be a spectacular announcement of their intentions which could speak even louder than qualification for the Champions League.

      Liverpool are being squeezed by teams who have been allowed to build and clubs that have not been so badly run. Tottenham's progress has been through shrewd investment and the acquisition of a squad that Liverpool can only envy. Peter Crouch might have stayed at Liverpool if he had been offered a contract that would have made his time on the bench bearable. Instead, he ended up at Spurs, along with Robbie Keane, who played no more time at Tottenham than he did at Liverpool but nobody seemed to notice before he headed off to Glasgow.

      City and Spurs are ready to replace Liverpool. They have energy, ambition and new ideas. Liverpool are just trying to make it through the night. They have been ripped from their community by the decision of David Moores to sell the club to Hicks and Gillett. The desire of supporters to see the club return to ownership they understand has now been replaced by the pressing urgency to find somebody to rescue them.

      There was a time when Moores and Rick Parry (who received a pay-off of £3m, the latest accounts revealed) searched the world looking for new investment. Moores could have borrowed on the club to build a new stadium instead of selling to the Americans, who were borrowing on the club to buy it, and Liverpool would be in a better position today. Instead, he made a rash decision and a poor business one for him and for Liverpool.

      Those were the good days when the world felt it could trust people like Hicks and Gillett. Because there were so many of them, they must be doing something right.

      Last week's accounts showed Liverpool's loss was 34 per cent worse than 2008's figure as £40.1m went on servicing the club's £351.4m debt to Royal Bank of Scotland and US firm Wachovia. These loans have been extended until the sale but the club is now, according to KPMG, "dependent on short-term facility extensions". They are living hand to mouth. And yet they claim that Torres doesn't need to be sold. They do not need to sell him, much as a wino doesn't need a bed for the night.

      It is worth noting that the accounts were taken in a good year for Liverpool, a run in the Champions League and second in the league. Next year, if there is a next year, things will be worse.

      But still they blame the manager. Benitez is said to be torn about his departure. A number of senior players would be happy to see him go and a number would prefer if he stayed. His management style is undoubtedly wearing on players but Liverpool aren't faced with too many alternatives.

      Few managers will be tempted in the summer to join a club which may not still have owners and has no money. Martin O'Neill is the only candidate who appeals, especially if he feels he has done as much as he can at Aston Villa. Liverpool may not end up like Leeds but there is every indication they could end up like Newcastle, who, unlike Liverpool, had a stadium that gave them the revenue to compete. Liverpool have nothing, not even freedom, as that isn't afforded to the indebted.

      The days of standing on the edge of the abyss are over, Liverpool have fallen over the edge. Benitez seems reluctant not to fall with them. He staked his reputation on the club and he found that even when it plummeted, he didn't want to give it all up.

      He has been promised riches and finances at Juventus but still he hesitates. He is bound by something more. He is a flawed hero but history will see his management as no less heroic for the reality that it was doomed.

      Sunday Independent


      « Last Edit: May 19, 2010 06:07:04 pm by ayrton77, Reason: Please don\'t post in red, put in article format »
      LFCexiled
      • Guest
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7205: May 19, 2010 12:17:06 pm
      ^^^^^ Did you have to make it red?
      fraggle786
      • Forum John Toshack
      • ***

      • 271 posts | 15 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7206: May 19, 2010 12:37:24 pm
      ^^^^^ Did you have to make it red?

      sorry mate, i did that to make it stand out from the rest of text. still lerning how to use the functions on this forum. But i guess when you consider the article, red is pretty apt color.
      Reprobate
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,055 posts | 436 
      • Avatar by Kitster29@Deviantart.com
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7207: May 19, 2010 01:38:33 pm
      My eyes... my eyes!!!
      KennyIsKing
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 4,628 posts | 129 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7208: May 22, 2010 12:30:26 pm
      Not sure if this has been posted yet, but it makes interesting reading...
      http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/05/houllier-vs-benitez-spend-analysis/
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 17,980 posts | 2264 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7209: May 22, 2010 12:56:22 pm
      No it's not been posted or at least I've not seen it anywhere.  Good read too thanks for posting it mate.
      KennyIsKing
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 4,628 posts | 129 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7210: May 22, 2010 03:07:24 pm
      No it's not been posted or at least I've not seen it anywhere.  Good read too thanks for posting it mate.

      Kind of puts things in perspective given all the speculation, and the calls for him to go from certain sections.
      dunlop liddell shankly
      • 2009 LFC quiz champion (now to be known as "Kate")
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 21,112 posts | 3367 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7211: May 22, 2010 03:53:57 pm

      I stopped reading after this sentence - "As each has (to date) managed the club for six years, it seemed a fair time to ask, although the obvious problem is that Houllier started buying players 12 years ago, when transfer fees were a lot cheaper"

      Second sentence and I stopped.

      Well yes Houllier was in charge when transfer fees were not as big as they are now, meaning he didn't need to spend as much on average players. But Rafa is selling players for huge amounts, meaning what he brings in is overpriced. Did Tomkins think of it that way?

      Going from lfchistory.net -
      Rafa has spent 230,676,000 and recouped 155,700,000. Net spend 74,976,000
      Houllier spent 126,400,000 and recouped 60,675,000. Net spend 65,725,000

      You can't compare transfer fees from different eras. And you certainly can't make up some bollocks theory of what possible fee players from 2000 would cost a decade later.
      Adryan
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 17,704 posts | 378 
      • Cut my veins open and I bleed Liverpool Red.
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7212: May 22, 2010 03:56:46 pm
      You can't compare transfer fees from different eras. And you certainly can't make up some bollocks theory of what possible fee players from 2000 would cost a decade later.

      Exactly mate. It's just how the rate goes as time passes. That's why I feel Ronaldo in 2003 and Ferdinand in 2001 were really overpriced. Those are amount commonly being paid now for players.
      KennyIsKing
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 4,628 posts | 129 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7213: May 22, 2010 04:04:53 pm
      The formula for the Transfer Price Index he uses takes that into account - it's weighted for each year depending on the state of the market, as well as taking inflation into account.

      It's worth looking at that before making a judgement :)
      dunlop liddell shankly
      • 2009 LFC quiz champion (now to be known as "Kate")
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 21,112 posts | 3367 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7214: May 22, 2010 04:08:34 pm
      I've just read the entire article and Paul Tomkins hang your F***ing head in shame lad. What kind of Liverpool fan says the following:

      "Benítez won one of the two that really matter, and made another Champions League final."

      So F**k everything else. Lets just ask the FA to kick us out the League Cup and FA Cup and write a letter to UEFA telling us not to bother with the Europa League. They obviously don't matter to glory hunting bas**rds like you.

      I can guarentee, whole F***ing heartedly, that if we got past Athletico Madrid in the semi final last season and then beat Fulham, you'd be banging the drum of how great a job Rafa has done to win the Europa League. And how it was a massive achievement winning such a big trophy.

      F***ing disgraceful thing to say.

      The FA Cup, League Cup and UEFA Cup matter as well. And that's why Liverpool Football Club takes part in them and tries to win them. They may not hold as much prestige as others, but it's still a F***ing joy seeing our boys win them because they matter.

      Maybe Shanks' side that won the FA Cup twice and UEFA Cup once don't matter. Maybe Bob's 76 UEFA Cup winning side isn't important or the fact that he took us to three consecutive League Cups. Maybe Smokin' Joe winning our fourth League Cup - part of our first treble in 84 - is irrelevant. Maybe Kenny's double winning side should only care about winning the League and not the FA Cup - against Everton. Maybe Kenny's side beating Everton in the 89 Cup Final should be forgotten because they didn't win the League. Maybe Souey and Roy didn't win a thing because they only won unimportant trophies.

      F***ing ridiculous statement that only two trophies matter. They all F***ing matter, maybe not to pricks like you but certainly to fans who want to see their club win things on a regular basis. I got as much satisfaction winning the FA Cup in 01 as I did the European Cup in 05.

      Every player will tell you they want to play at Wembley to play in the FA Cup final. It's tradition alone puts it up there as a massive trophy.

      Maybe you're just one of these modern day football fans who fucks history and tradition off and cares more about money.

      Disgraceful. Really is.
      « Last Edit: May 22, 2010 04:13:36 pm by dunlop liddell shankly »
      dunlop liddell shankly
      • 2009 LFC quiz champion (now to be known as "Kate")
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 21,112 posts | 3367 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7215: May 22, 2010 04:11:39 pm
      The formula for the Transfer Price Index he uses takes that into account - it's weighted for each year depending on the state of the market, as well as taking inflation into account.

      It's worth looking at that before making a judgement :)

      Sorry mate but it isn't.

      You can't make out that a player costing 11mill in 2000 (Heskey) suddenly becomes a 20 million pound transfer a decade later just because club's are spending much bigger around that time.

      Everything in the world has inflated, prices of everyday things like pints of milk have gone up. Football has simply followed suit. It makes no odds what something cost years ago, it's what it costs now that counts. Money could go further years ago.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7216: May 22, 2010 04:13:59 pm
      Its all hypothetical really, its like saying Ronaldo went for 80 million, so a John Barnes in this day and age would go for around 50/60 million.
      KennyIsKing
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 4,628 posts | 129 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7217: May 22, 2010 04:32:27 pm
      It's still a pretty usefull indicator, and like economists use the phrase "in real terms" so Tomkins uses TPI, as an indicator of spending, and uses it pretty well to highlight relative spending "in real terms"

      It's a pretty complex formula, and as with anything to do with inflation, weighting and relative monetary values it's not precise, but is still a usefull tool when making a comparison.

      Taking inflation into account, and then weighting player values according to the state of the market at any given time (using average transfer price index) amomgst other factors is going to give a pretty accurate picture of spending in relative terms.

      To be fair, you need to be a decent mathematician and/or economist to truly understand how it works, and I'm neither, but I have enough of a grasp to understand that as an indicator it has value.
      hardcoresoldier
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 5,160 posts | 1288 
      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7218: May 22, 2010 07:38:13 pm
      Its all hypothetical really, its like saying Ronaldo went for 80 million, so a John Barnes in this day and age would go for around 50/60 million.

      Just wanted to say this, John Barnes in this day and age would cost 90 million pounds. ;D
      KennyIsKing
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 4,628 posts | 129 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7219: May 22, 2010 08:10:46 pm
      Just wanted to say this, John Barnes in this day and age would cost 90 million pounds. ;D

      I loved the way he used to just glide past people like they were standing still.

      What a player - maybe one of our best ever...

      Now if only Rafa could buy players like that....
      hardcoresoldier
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 5,160 posts | 1288 
      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7220: May 22, 2010 08:27:46 pm
      I loved the way he used to just glide past people like they were standing still.

      What a player - maybe one of our best ever...

      Now if only Rafa could buy players like that....

      Digger was the canine's testicles and then some. What i'd give for a left winger with half his ability.
      RedRoy
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,483 posts | 88 
      Re: The great big Rafa debate
      Reply #7221: May 23, 2010 12:55:37 am
      I've just read the entire article and Paul Tomkins hang your f**king head in shame lad. What kind of Liverpool fan says the following:

      "Benítez won one of the two that really matter, and made another Champions League final."

      So f**k everything else. Lets just ask the FA to kick us out the League Cup and FA Cup and write a letter to UEFA telling us not to bother with the Europa League. They obviously don't matter to glory hunting bas**rds like you.

      I can guarentee, whole f**king heartedly, that if we got past Athletico Madrid in the semi final last season and then beat Fulham, you'd be banging the drum of how great a job Rafa has done to win the Europa League. And how it was a massive achievement winning such a big trophy.

      F***ing disgraceful thing to say.

      The FA Cup, League Cup and UEFA Cup matter as well. And that's why Liverpool Football Club takes part in them and tries to win them. They may not hold as much prestige as others, but it's still a f**king joy seeing our boys win them because they matter.

      Maybe Shanks' side that won the FA Cup twice and UEFA Cup once don't matter. Maybe Bob's 76 UEFA Cup winning side isn't important or the fact that he took us to three consecutive League Cups. Maybe Smokin' Joe winning our fourth League Cup - part of our first treble in 84 - is irrelevant. Maybe Kenny's double winning side should only care about winning the League and not the FA Cup - against Everton. Maybe Kenny's side beating Everton in the 89 Cup Final should be forgotten because they didn't win the League. Maybe Souey and Roy didn't win a thing because they only won unimportant trophies.

      F***ing ridiculous statement that only two trophies matter. They all f**king matter, maybe not to pricks like you but certainly to fans who want to see their club win things on a regular basis. I got as much satisfaction winning the FA Cup in 01 as I did the European Cup in 05.

      Every player will tell you they want to play at Wembley to play in the FA Cup final. It's tradition alone puts it up there as a massive trophy.

      Maybe you're just one of these modern day football fans who fucks history and tradition off and cares more about money.

      Disgraceful. Really is.
      Amen,the game.s rotten and so are some of the "fans".

      Quick Reply