The great big Rafa debate

What restraint? What kind of F***ing restraint restraining him from designing and devising a tactic to at least attack the ball against the likes of Wigan and portsmouth and at least have a shot on goal?

Does this apply to the players as well as the manager?

Does this apply to the players as well as the manager?

The manager responsible for EVERY player under him. There's no two way about it. When the player performs (aka Istanbul) rafa takes credit for it, when they don't I don't see any reason why he should not take any blame for it.

More nonsense.

What determines whether a particular player is bought or not is whether there is a budget for the transfer fee and wages.

Managers aren't responsible for setting transfer or wage budgets. Transfer budgets are set by the board and by the owners at Liverpool FC.

That’s why, for instance, we bought Rierra for £8.8m rather than Silva for say £35m.

Boards and owners are judged by transfer budgets because it’s they that set them not managers.

Oh, before you start saying that Rafa controls transfer policy… he doesn’t: the board does. He obtained an agreement with the board that he would be consulted on player transfers and the process would be streamlined (because we lost too many opportunities under Parry) as part of his new contract. That’s all.

No manager has total control of transfer policy.

What nonsense? Do you rate Shankly by who he bought or by his achivement? Do we recall GH had a major surgery to his heart and accept it as excuse? No, we remember him as HOULLIER. Does people thinks SAF should have won more if only he can get Ronaldinho, Buffon, and all his missing target? Does Avram Grant gets any credit for finishing 2nd and going into the final of EC?

But funnily Rafa got all the excuses lined up well. Well in 20 years time, there will only be 1 line probably follows Rafa name "He has problems with the board during his tenure" but nothing else. You're only jduged by your achivement in football.

Babel could have become world class if and buts, but by the time he retires he's only judged by what he have performed.

PS: So you're saying everyone is world class manager if only their boards blank check them all teh way? What defines a good manager?

The manager responsible for EVERY player under him. There's no two way about it. When the player performs (aka Istanbul) rafa takes credit for it, when they don't I don't see any reason why he should not take any blame for it.

But if players underperforms, it's all Rafa's fault and man-management skills.

Not the fact that maybe the player should be responsible as well, they are not F***ing children, when I see performances like I did against Wigan and Portsmouth, my personal view is that as well as moaning at the manager, you should F***ing moan at the players too, they are paid a F***ing fortune after-all.

What nonsense? Do you rate Shankly by who he bought or by his achivement? Do we recall GH had a major surgery to his heart and accept it as excuse? No, we remember him as HOULLIER. Does people thinks SAF should have won more if only he can get Ronaldinho, Buffon, and all his missing target? Does Avram Grant gets any credit for finishing 2nd and going into the final of EC?

And you don't mention the battle Shankly won over the Chairman, to actually invest more in players, sound F***ing familiar softlad!

But if players underperforms, it's all Rafa's fault and man-management skills.

Not the fact that maybe the player should be responsible as well, they are not F***ing children, when I see performances like I did against Wigan and Portsmouth, my personal view is that as well as moaning at the manager, you should F***ing moan at the players too, they are paid a F***ing fortune after-all.

Did rafa drop certain players? Bollocking them? perhaps ... we all don't know. But whatever he does it's not working.

Do you blame the whole soldier of US when they invaded Iraq? Or just the goverment that send them? Managers are paid millions of dollars to herd the flocks of overpaid players, it is one of their main job.

I can't believe how blinkered you are to think that managers does not responsible for maintaining player's morale and level of performance.

Did rafa drop certain players? Bollocking them? perhaps ... we all don't know. But whatever he does it's not working.

Do you blame the whole soldier of US when they invaded Iraq? Or just the goverment that send them? Managers are paid millions of dollars to herd the flocks of overpaid players, it is one of their main job.

Both actually, Bush for being dumb enough to actually invade without a solid plan and the soldiers for being like cowboys, ask our lads concerning blue on blue incidents.

Does the captain try geeing them per chance?

Bollocking players isn't always the answer, ask Souness after Bolton in the FA Cup in 93, after his tea cup tantrum and bollocking of the whole squad, we still got knocked out in the replay.

I can't believe how blinkered you are to think that managers does not responsible for maintaining player's morale and level of performance.

Well I go the game every week, so I can see what Rafa has been trying to do for the past six years, only to see it be pulled apart by those two F***ing cowboys.

I also see certain players really underperforming and they would be players who we expect to drive us to victory, so when some of our better players are having stinkers virtually every other week, I start to see that it isn't just a management issue, it's a problem that is actually within the club.

But we all know what the problem is, it's just trying to solve it.

Rafa loves LFC. I'd love to be the manager of LFC

When he won in Istanbul things he's hailed as God himself.
When he finishes 5th we consider it as a blip
When he finishes 2nd, we consider him tactical genious while IMO we're throwing that once in a blue moon chances away
When he F**k Alonso off, we blame his homesickness
WHen he signed Keane (Yes I believe he did have his signature somewhere) we blame Parry for that
When we fnishes 7th and sh*t season we lined up net spend, 2 yanks, and 1 purslow to defend him
When he bought 50+ sh*t players who's not even in here anymore, we mention the top 5 of his buying of Masch, Reina, Torres, Agger and Johsnon + the wheel and deal card
When he said he's considering a move to Juventus, we pity him because probably he's fed up.
When he persist with Crouch, we called him loyal
WHen he persist with Kuyt and 2 DM, we called him genious for stabilising the defence
When he bench Aquilani, we blame AA for not being mentally fit.
When he drops Babel, we blame babel for not training hard.

Remember guys, at the end of the day Rafa got paid for 5M / year. And I have no idea you can't have pressure and expectation when you receive that much.

Oh... Rafa must have loved to managed LFC.

I'm a Rafa fan but who picks the players, ya you can blame the players but it is Rafa that picks them.

In the Portsmouth match he played the useless Dossena at left midfield with the completely ineffective kuyt at right midfielder. He had 2 defensive midfielders in there against the worst team in the Premiership we lost that match in my opinion down to Rafas decisions.

 In the Wigan match he played Masch right back with Lucas and Gerrard in midfield which in my opinion was a massive mistake, our midfield was completely over run. He also played Benyoun on the left when clearly the lad can't play there. Again I think Rafas decisions cost us in this game.

I want Rafa to stay here but I have to say his performance this season was extremely poor and I think it would be strange if there wasn't fans questioning him.

Both actually, Bush for being dumb enough to actually invade without a solid plan and the soldiers for being like cowboys, ask our lads concerning blue on blue incidents.

Does the captain try geeing them per chance?

Bollocking players isn't always the answer, ask Souness after Bolton in the FA Cup in 93, after his tea cup tantrum and bollocking of the whole squad, we still got knocked out in the replay.

Bollocking or patting them on the back, or locking them up in the dress room, cut their salary, motivational talk, etc. I don't get paid 5M to manage LFC, how should I know all that.

Rafa loves LFC. I'd love to be the manager of LFC

When he won in Istanbul things he's hailed as God himself.
When he finishes 5th we consider it as a blip
When he finishes 2nd, we consider him tactical genious while IMO we're throwing that once in a blue moon chances away
When he f**k Alonso off, we blame his homesickness
WHen he signed Keane (Yes I believe he did have his signature somewhere) we blame Parry for that
When we fnishes 7th and sh*t season we lined up net spend, 2 yanks, and 1 purslow to defend him
When he bought 50+ sh*t players who's not even in here anymore, we mention the top 5 of his buying of Masch, Reina, Torres, Agger and Johsnon + the wheel and deal card
When he said he's considering a move to Juventus, we pity him because probably he's fed up.
When he persist with Crouch, we called him loyal
WHen he persist with Kuyt and 2 DM, we called him genious for stabilising the defence
When he bench Aquilani, we blame AA for not being mentally fit.
When he drops Babel, we blame babel for not training hard.

Remember guys, at the end of the day Rafa got paid for 5M / year. And I have no idea you can't have pressure and expectation when you receive that much.

Oh... Rafa must have loved to managed LFC.

Why is it that you actually think Rafa has taken us as far as he can..? Because of the constant warring with the owners..? Are the owners correct then..? Should Rafa just accept the piss poor state that the club is in and F**k off..leaving us with a board not capable of bringing in a suitable replacement in many peoples eyes.. Should he just carry on without moaning about lack of funds, making do with what he's got, because if thats the case then we are accepting mediocracy, or should he continue to try and battle with the two fuckers that are ruining our club..?

If you believe he has lost the dressing room then back it up with facts, because all the players, most fans and the manager all seem to think it s the lack of funds and capability of signing big names that is going to stop us competing with the elite.  The managers CV stands up to scrutiny, Torres always wanted to play for Benitez, senior playes have given him credit for bringing on their game and he is being shouted about by big other big european clubs almost on a daily basis, so he can't be that bad a manager.

Rafa loves LFC. I'd love to be the manager of LFC

When he won in Istanbul things he's hailed as God himself.
When he finishes 5th we consider it as a blip
When he finishes 2nd, we consider him tactical genious while IMO we're throwing that once in a blue moon chances away
When he F**k Alonso off, we blame his homesickness
WHen he signed Keane (Yes I believe he did have his signature somewhere) we blame Parry for that
When we fnishes 7th and sh*t season we lined up net spend, 2 yanks, and 1 purslow to defend him
When he bought 50+ sh*t players who's not even in here anymore, we mention the top 5 of his buying of Masch, Reina, Torres, Agger and Johsnon + the wheel and deal card
When he said he's considering a move to Juventus, we pity him because probably he's fed up.
When he persist with Crouch, we called him loyal
WHen he persist with Kuyt and 2 DM, we called him genious for stabilising the defence
When he bench Aquilani, we blame AA for not being mentally fit.
When he drops Babel, we blame babel for not training hard.

Remember guys, at the end of the day Rafa got paid for 5M / year. And I have no idea you can't have pressure and expectation when you receive that much.

Oh... Rafa must have loved to managed LFC.

Shut the F**k up you traitorous tw*t. Why don't you go and support City or Chelsea, they'd love your brand of support there.

how should I know all that.

Keep your gob shut then!

for me rafa is the right man:

• he has been successful
  
• there is no one else available who could do a better job
  

Why is it that you actually think Rafa has taken us as far as he can..? Because of the constant warring with the owners..? Are the owners correct then..? Should Rafa just accept the piss poor state that the club is in and F**k off..leaving us with a board not capable of bringing in a suitable replacement in many peoples eyes.. Should he just carry on without moaning about lack of funds, making do with what he's got, because if thats the case then we are accepting mediocracy, or should he continue to try and battle with the two fuckers that are ruining our club..?

If you believe he has lost the dressing room then back it up with facts, because all the players, most fans and the manager all seem to think it s the lack of funds and capability of signing big names that is going to stop us competing with the elite.  The managers CV stands up to scrutiny, Torres always wanted to play for Benitez, senior playes have given him credit for bringing on their game and he is being shouted about by big other big european clubs almost on a daily basis, so he can't be that bad a manager.

When we're talking about fact, only 1 thing counts : League Table.

Because you, me, and all the so claimed well informed posters probably have never even set foot in anfield's dressing room , or the board meeting, or the ability to mind read Rafa.

Why does we accept that Rafa loves LFC (which is against based on assumption), Parry F***ing him off, Alonso, etc etc etc. While to be honest with you, it's all about as bias as your word against his word.

bottom line is, some of us choose what to believe, and label everything else as anti liverpool, or having an agenda. While perhaps we're just being paranoid and can't handle the reality. WE're refusing to accepts veiw from journalist, even views from our own ex-legends (fowler comes to mind) and label them knows jackshit about LFC, while at the same time some of us were holding created myths and assumption as the new Gospel.

It goes both ways my friend.

PS: Can you back that he still have the support of the dressing room with facts?

Also, why I think he has taken us as far as he can, because I just don't see that hunger in him or the players he mould / bought / signed anymore. We have no believe, and when you don't even believe how can you expect to over perform? In my eyes Rafa are too busy having his fight with everyone on the club (for right / wrong) and forgets that he's here to manage. It's more like he's trying to make a statement to prove that he is right instead of doing what's best for LFC.

for me rafa is the right man:

• he has been successful
  
• there is no one else available who could do a better job
  

Houllier was succesful, he brought us our own treble.

We didn't think there was a better man for this job that time didn't we?

Shut the F**k up you traitorous tw*t. Why don't you go and support City or Chelsea, they'd love your brand of support there.

Keep your gob shut then!

That's the best you can come up with? Perhaps I should, at least I got offered prawn sandwiches instead of abuses from fellow fans.

Rafa loves LFC. I'd love to be the manager of LFC

When he won in Istanbul things he's hailed as God himself. - He did it with a sh*te squad. The most elite competition in Club football.
When he finishes 5th we consider it as a blip - We won the CL that year, who honestly cared?
When he finishes 2nd, we consider him tactical genious while IMO we're throwing that once in a blue moon chances away - Nobody hailed him as a tactical genius. We blamed the draws and regretted not finishing first.
When he F**k Alonso off, we blame his homesickness - No, most of us know that it was partially Rafa's fault for trying to sell him the year before.
WHen he signed Keane (Yes I believe he did have his signature somewhere) we blame Parry for that - The Chief Executive CAN go above a manager to sign someone you know. Modern-day football for you.
When we fnishes 7th and sh*t season we lined up net spend, 2 yanks, and 1 purslow to defend him - The Clubs that finished above us easily spent more than us, whilst losing NO key players in the summer (Ronaldo aside).
When he bought 50+ sh*t players who's not even in here anymore, we mention the top 5 of his buying of Masch, Reina, Torres, Agger and Johsnon + the wheel and deal card - So are managers not allowed to realise they've bought a bad player and sell them off ASAP for most of their money back now? No Manager, I repeat, NO Manager you research will have a better success rate in the transfer market than Rafa. Please feel free to look it up.
When he said he's considering a move to Juventus, we pity him because probably he's fed up. - And he probably is. He's getting nowhere with the owners we have in now.
When he persist with Crouch, we called him loyal - And?
WHen he persist with Kuyt and 2 DM, we called him genious for stabilising the defence - Everyone's getting fed up of 4-2-3-1 now, granted, but against the "big" teams it works wonders. It has both its pros and cons.
When he bench Aquilani, we blame AA for not being mentally fit. - We can't blame a player when they're injured then? Suppose we'll have to smack Rafa for Aquilani, Degen, Johnson, Gerrard and Torres becoming injured.
When he drops Babel, we blame babel for not training hard. - We don't need to blame Babel for training hard, it's evident in his game. Use your eyes.

Remember guys, at the end of the day Rafa got paid for 5M / year. And I have no idea you can't have pressure and expectation when you receive that much.

Oh... Rafa must have loved to managed LFC.

My responses are in your post.

It's spelt "genius" by the way, genius.

Houllier was succesful, he brought us our own treble.

We didn't think there was a better man for this job that time didn't we?

He actually won us our second treble, name the first?

I did think Rafa would be a better manager, especially after his Valencia team embarrassed us in the Mestalla.

That's the best you can come up with? Perhaps I should, at least I got offered prawn sandwiches instead of abuses from fellow fans.

It's abuse, no plural!!

And why would you bang on about prawn sandwiches on here unless you were secretly a manc. I'd prefer to give you a knuckle sandwich in all honesty.

He actually won us our second treble, name the first?

was that '84 by any chance? Leage winners, league cup and european cup? under a certain mr fagan?

Has Rafa won it when he's not under profit for the first 4 years he's here? or anywhere close?

No he didn't but as his first two seasons were spent rebuilding and he got to two major European cup finals, winning one, the third year we progressed in the league and the fourth we almost won it, so I don't really see your point, it's nice to see you totally side stepped my question though answering it with a question of your own.

The answer is there is no manager in the premier league that has won the premier league operating under a sell to buy policy and turning a transfer profit, so if no other manager can do it, why expect Rafa to ?

was that '84 by any chance? Leage winners, league cup and european cup? under a certain mr fagan?

T'was indeed. The first English Club to make the treble, despite some of the press stating otherwise.

was that '84 by any chance? Leage winners, league cup and european cup? under a certain mr fagan?

Gold star for you Ozi!!

No he didn't but as his first two seasons were spent rebuilding and he got to two major European cup finals, winning one, the third year we progressed in the league and the fourth we almost won it, so I don't really see your point, it's nice to see you totally side stepped my question though answering it with a question of your own.

The answer is there is no manager in the premier league that has won the premier league operating under a sell to buy policy and turning a transfer profit, so if no other manager can do it, why expect Rafa to ?

At his 6th year he's needing to rebuild as well.