Passing from the back (death by football)

Found this video of Gary Neville (yeah I know but this is actually a good analysis)  MNF analysis of el clasico 10/12/2011

I think this really shows what we are trying to achieve, I know allot of people are not fans of this system but this really shows how effective it can be.

Gary Neville MNF analysis of el clasico 10/12/2011

I can see where your coming from - and the whole 'death by football' idea... Yes, it looks good on that anaylsis, but you need to have players who are very skillful and can change a game.

Dont forget Barca have some world class players! If we tried that against Real we would get spanked..!

It's a good pirce of analysis from a player we all loved to hate but truth be told he is turning into an excellent analyst. Our centre-halves take up pretty similar positions themselves and you can certainly see why the philosophy can work but obviously you need players who fully fit the system. That's why we've seen a player like Skrtel struggle at times this season I think.

I can see where your coming from - and the whole 'death by football' idea... Yes, it looks good on that anaylsis, but you need to have players who are very skillful and can change a game.

Dont forget Barca have some world class players! If we tried that against Real we would get spanked..!

Yes true, but its good to see what we are working towards is a very high stranded of football. I think after enough time playing this way we will improve and it will become very effective.

It's a good pirce of analysis from a player we all loved to hate but truth be told he is turning into an excellent analyst. Our centre-halves take up pretty similar positions themselves and you can certainly see why the philosophy can work but obviously you need players who fully fit the system. That's why we've seen a player like Skrtel struggle at times this season I think.

Yeah absolutely, its a style I love to watch but it is a shame that players like Skrtel might not fit into the long term plans of the team because of it. We all know he is a quality defender so hopefully he can adapt and show Brendan he can fit the system.

Think Brendan will have to search high and wide to find quality centre backs, who are also able to play like talented midfielders. Agger is the nearest we'll get I think. The players Barca have, have been honed to play like this from youth level. It will take years to emulate and I guess every one would like their team to play this way. Unfortunately, by the time the youngsters come through, the senior tallent is too old. We need to poach all the top quality youngsters now, and plan for the future.

I've got to admit I thoroughly enjoy it when Neville analysis football and takes it to pieces, he is the only pundit off the top of my head who looks as though they know what they're talking about. The rest talk rubbish.

Gary Neville is a quality pundit.

He comes across as knowledgeable, unbiased and communicative.

I honestly hope he co-commentates the rest of the games I watch on Sky Sports (streams ).

 I like the philosophy and the idea behind it all. That said, there's more than one way to skin a cat in football. We've had three managers pre Brendan who all liked to play a lot more direct than he does, and we've had a measure of success with two of them so it shows there's no right and wrong way. It appears that Mourinho has managed to get the measure of the Barcelona method, even given the fact that they have fantastic players, so I do think it's wise not to get too hung up about a tactical nirvana.

 My own thoughts are that football is essentially a simple game about which it is very easy to make glib generalisations. "The opposition can't score when you've got the ball" is an obvious example, but if they take it off you while you are f*cking around with it inside your own penalty area then there is a good chance they might. I'm all for it, but at times I think we shouldn't be frightened of putting our foot through it and playing football in the oppositions half.

I like the philosophy and the idea behind it all. That said, there's more than one way to skin a cat in football. We've had three managers pre Brendan who all liked to play a lot more direct than he does, and we've had a measure of success with two of them so it shows there's no right and wrong way. It appears that Mourinho has managed to get the measure of the Barcelona method, even given the fact that they have fantastic players, so I do think it's wise not to get too hung up about a tactical nirvana.

 My own thoughts are that football is essentially a simple game about which it is very easy to make glib generalisations. "The opposition can't score when you've got the ball" is an obvious example, but if they take it off you while you are f*cking around with it inside your own penalty area then there is a good chance they might. I'm all for it, but at times I think we shouldn't be frightened of putting our foot through it and playing football in the oppositions half.

Football is a simple game is also a glib generalisation.   

Football is a simple game is also a glib generalisation.   

 haha very true, touche.

It all comes down to composure and ability and tactical awareness. Barcelona play such a simple game but its so so effective. All they do is pass into space and move. They make themselves available for every single pass, they make the pitch as big as it is, they cover every blade of grass available. When you've got 11 players all doing that, they all know that a pass will be available to a teammate who has made himself available by running into space, limitless stamina and running, all have good control and composure, it's easy. The other team just gets F***ing knackered and then they hurt you. It's so simple but absolutely brilliant to watch IMO, what a philosophy to have. Patient build-up, no rush, total confidence on the ball and in each other.

I can imagine they do 'piggy in the middle' a lot in training sessions. They have so much confidence in their own ability and each other's ability to patiently keep the ball and probe it around, they all look sky high confident on the ball. They believe in their philosophy and it's clear they've got a bright future ahead, and fair play to them.

I think it takes confidence more to play from the back. Our defenders showed it at Wigan and was impressive. If we can play like that against better teams, our defence will be class.

call me stoopid but right now as we are...    we'd beat Barca

no problem

I suppose it's a good idea and so risky at the same time.  I think our problem has been, this season, trying to implement and stick to that when the opposition don't press and sit back and get organised.  We push up the field, lose the ball, the opposition counter and create a chance.

Good analysis though and showed Madrid pressing high up the pitch.  Can you imagine Stoke City doing that?  And therein lies the opportunity to play it quickly if there is a ball on.

Really good analysis by Neville. I enjoyed that clip and I would agree, I think that's Brendan's ultimate goal. So many people latch on to the "tika-taka" line and try to beat him over the head with it but ultimately it's about courage, control and just wearing out the other team.

This is a surprisingly good piece of analysis from Neville, I really didn't expect him to become that kind of commentator. I saw him more like the kind of former player who focuses on their own experience only and think they're always right cause they've seen it, they've lived it - you know the (boring) type. Very impressed with Neville.

I remember reading a piece by Jonathan Wilson last season about Barcelona and playing from the back, it also mentioned how - similarly to Guardiola - Rodgers was never too harsh when Williams or Caulker made some mistake when trying to play from the back. It happens, it's part of the whole thing, but you don't abandon the philosophy at the first problem you face. In the long run, it'll payoff - you just need to be brave enough to get past the hysteria a few mistakes can cause.

We've actually been a lot less 'tiki-taka' than we were at the start of the season.

Thank god that Rodgers decided the strategy needed adapting from Swansea to Liverpool.

We've been far more direct when required and it's got us some improved results from the opening half season.

If you ask me, possession football is one of the most effective styles ever.

When you're in possession of the ball, opponents can't score. I remember I played in a 6 aside league where I was basically helping out a team, the captain told us to "just defend" as we were playing the league leaders. I said "No, let's play possession and keep the ball so they can't score".

Making your opponents chase you here and there also wears them out and stretches their formation, giving you more space eventually.

Another important thing to note is some people, having chased the ball for so long, ends up screwing up when they do manage to get the ball because they'd rush to try to attack by playing long passes.

I'm sure we could also make a video of Barca's past 2 games against Real Madrid that would show how not effective it can also be. But I have to agree it's a good analysis of their passing game. At the same time though I kind of feel like we've moved away a bit from that idealistic model somewhere along this season.

Also, about Barcelona. I think just as important as their passing is the agressive early pressing game they utilise when they loose possession. Or maybe I should say utilised because that part of their game seems to be fading this season. Not sure if that's new tactics, or just because maybe players like Xavi and Iniesta can't bring that intensity anymore.

I'm sure we could also make a video of Barca's past 2 games against Real Madrid that would show how not effective it can also be. But I have to agree it's a good analysis of their passing game. At the same time though I kind of feel like we've moved away a bit from that idealistic model somewhere along this season.

Also, about Barcelona. I think just as important as their passing is the agressive early pressing game they utilise when they loose possession. Or maybe I should say utilised because that part of their game seems to be fading this season. Not sure if that's new tactics, or just because maybe players like Xavi and Iniesta can't bring that intensity anymore.

Excellent point with your second paragraph Bier. I remember reading comments from Messi about how Guardiola threatened to drop him if he didn't start increasing his work rate and pressure from the front. The forward line sets the tone for that and the rest of the team should follow. If the forwards are lazy, the system won't work.

Sometimes I think we try to press but we don't do it collectively, it's just Suarez and someone else and they get taken out of the game. It'd also help if we had a speedier centre back to effectively control the high line that naturally comes from the team pressing further forward.

The Death Of Tika - Taka ?

Spain's utterly-average display in their 3-0 Confederations Cup defeat to Brazil led to the usual suggestions that their era of supremacy is over.
Kaput.
Finito.

It's a pretty tired follow-up that we see every time the Spaniards or the club football kings of tiki-taka, Barcelona, take the sort of beating they're apparently only allowed to dish out these days.

In fact, there were plenty of participants on both sides at the Maracana who also featured the last time the 'end of an era' autopilots took to the skies - Bayern Munich's brutal splattering of Barca in the Champions League last four.

It probably feels like deja vu to them. And to us spectators too.

But the truth is that this isn't a death. Quite the opposite.

Football is alive. And a supposedly-meaningless tournament has provided the finishing touches to the resurrection.

Credit where it is due, Spain have been nothing short of amazing for the last six years. Their style of football has become a thing of sporting fashion and their success has made them one of, if not the top national football sides of all time.

But it was getting dull. So, so dull.

Tiki-taka will keep the ball.

Tiki-taka will keep the ball some more.

Tiki-taka will be salivated over and worshipped by puny opponents.

Tiki-taka will sap the willpower of everyone in sight.

ED is not saying that Spain and Barcelona must do badly for football to prosper. We've just been in dire need of someone, anyone, to drag them out of their almost painfully smug comfort zones.

Bayern did that in the spring, and now Brazil have followed suit in a wonderful culmination of a staggeringly enjoyable 'minor' event.
Neither side were underdogs, of course, but their successful approaches against tiki-taka can and will be replicated.

Sure, Spain could yet easily retain the World Cup on the very same pitch which hosted their dissection, and subsequently dismiss the 3-0 humbling as an insignificant blip on the road to another 'real' final.

But there now exists cast-iron evidence that tiki-taka is not the only way to play these days.

Not only that, but the antidote to the Spanish stronghold cooked up an absolute humdinger of a contest for a massive global audience. And exciting, open football matches are good, right?

Brazil of course would love to replicate the deafening roars inside the Maracana in a year's time. They have reason to believe they can do anything at the moment.

But their key to success against Spain was not exactly rocket science.
They simply showed the world champions no respect, put them under intense pressure and forced them into unfamiliar, uncomfortable territory.

And even when the Spanish hit their attacking stride, Brazil showed the true meaning of a superb defensive display (SPOILER ALERT: it isn't putting 10 men inside their own final third). Julio Cesar, David Luiz and Thiago Silva in particular were superb.

Brazil have a shedload of quality players at their disposal, of course: a country of 193 million football-obsessed people means the deepest talent pool on the planet.

But they are not the only country who can realistically take the same approach. There are at least half a dozen nations with the firepower to match Sunday night's intrepid approach and open up a ton of otherwise lop-sided games.

If more teams wake up from the hypnotic spell football has been under thanks to Spain and Barca, the 2014 World Cup will be wide open. The action will feel fresher. And it won't just be in Spain matches where things improve.

Every match between a clear favourite and a clear underdog will no longer likely be a tedious tussle between classy and cynical play. Put the superior teams under pressure. Roll the dice.

It may end in a heavier defeat but it could yield a performance with the guts and glory that Big Phil Scolari and his boys treated a delighted partisan crowd to on Sunday.

The common case against this argument appears to be Tahiti. Who would want to ship six, seven or 10 and 'devalue the tournament' when they can just plead guilty to the crime of being less developed as a nation and accept the lesser charge of a 2-0 snorefest reverse?

What tripe. Tahiti devalued nothing. They earned their spot and they attracted more casual fans than your average whipping boy ever could.

The Confederations Cup has proven that a little hustle and a complete lack of fear is a breath of fresh air.

And even Spain now must go back to the drawing board and add a few new wrinkles to their battleplan if they are to be sure of a second world title in 2014.

Their loss could be a huge win for fans bored with 99% of the world accepting their roles in tournaments.

Here's hoping it really does shake things up on the road to the finals, and isn't just a one-off.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/early-doors/tiki-taka-dead-no-football-alive-well-015447501.html


Keep on your toes Brendan !

To be fair, I don't think the Gaffer has ever said his philosophy is 1000% pure 'tiki-taka' football, and whether it was or not, he seemed to adopt a more direct style of play during the second half of last season.

To be fair, I don't think the Gaffer has ever said his philosophy is 1000% pure 'tiki-taka' football, and whether it was or not, he seemed to adopt a more direct style of play during the second half of last season.

I agree.  I think the adaptation was a direct result of actually having new additions who were more versatile and could play direct with much more effectiveness.