The summer clearout thread - Who should be shown the door?

I may get slated for this, but before you go gunning me down hear me out
I think Lucas is not quite good enough for what we need, think Mascherano, Khedira, Song or Busquets...they're all solid and you don't see many getting past them in a game. When we had Masch I felt a LOT safer when the opposition attacked. Masch was quick across the ground and his positioning was excellent, and although sometimes he maybe left a foot in he was brilliant protection for Xabi and Stevie to go and play. Lucas is not quite at this level, maybe one notch below in the same way that Suarez is not Ronaldo or Messi's level but only just. Lucas is not quick enough and often gets caught in possession as well as his positioning sometimes being questioned. Yes the injuries have affected him, but that doesn't mean he is good enough BECAUSE injuries have held him back. I wouldn't sell him, just maybe bring in an experienced anchor-man (like Chelsea did with Makelele)  and let Lucas maybe learn from him as well as having to earn his place in the starting line-up. I still think Lucas can develop and was our best player last season until his injury, but until he does I think its worth having a safer option who has been tried and tested.

In terms of a squad 'clearout', get rid of:
Skrtel £12 mill
Carroll £15 mill
Pacheco £2.5mill
Spearing £3mill

Loan out:
Sterling
Wisdom
Coady
Suso
Yesil

Including loan fees (at least £500k) and the £30mill being touted around as a summer budget this leaves around £60mill for Brendan to spend

Sign:
Alex Song Loan/£15mill
Wilfried Bony £12mill - more mobile than Andy Carroll and can finish very well - wouldn't have the pressure of being an expensive first team signing, could gradually work his way in and would be a different option to Sturridge. Is 24 so could be here for a while.
Right footed, ball playing Centre-half - Mancienne (is doing very well for Hamburg and unlike Ashley Williams is not in his late 20's and wouldn't potentially cause problems with Luis) £4-8mill - he can also play at DM and RB.
Christian Chivu - experienced left footed Centre-half - would be Aggers backup for a decent price - £3mill?

Total expenditure - £8mill

Invest the rest in youth/training facilities/staff

Promote Kelly to Carra's replacement - we could then field a side with many different options and a lot of versatility -

                                                                         Reina

Johnson/Kelly/Mancienne   Kelly/Mancienne/Coates           Agger/Chivu/Wilson/Coates      Enrique/Johnson/Kelly/Robbo

                                                                     Song/Lucas

                                    Henderson/Gerrard/Allen         Gerrard/Henderson/Allen

Suarez/Downing/Sturridge/Coutinho                                                          Suarez/Downing/Sturridge/Coutinho

                                                             Suarez/Bony/Sturridge

Furthermore, Song can play at CB if needed, other players like Sterling and Suso would add squad depth if they didn't go out on loan, and if we need a more defense-minded midfield (i.e. at Old Toilet) we could play Song and Lucas together.

Lucas will never be Alonsoesque, I'd decscribe him as more Hamannesque actually! So where would you have played him and defined his role as.

It's quite simple what he does, he wins the ball back from the opposition and then tries to find a red shirt, quite simple and basic which really what football is!

Very good response mate, Lucas on his better days is a mid-field Jack of all trades and unlike the adage he can master the stage in style, as stated previously that is on his better days.
Remember the lacklustre displays he put in consistently after his arrival and the process when he evolved into the powerhouse of the last few seasons?
His distribution and tenacity in the tackle won him MOTM more than once, however there is no reason to believe that he can slot back in and recommence where he left off. It may be the physical character of the lad that dictates he needs a generous bedding in period after any trauma or change of environment.
Any talk of getting shut or replacing him is misguided to say the least, do you think BR would even contemplate the suggestion? 

Carrol[l]- 15mil
Assaidi- 4mil
Coates- 4mil
Skrtel- 8/12mil
Spearing- 2mil
Suso/Shelvey/Ngoo- Loan to PL Sides

Skrtel £12 mill
Carroll £15 mill
Pacheco £2.5mill
Spearing £3mill

Some incredibly generous valuations in this thread. No way we'll get near that for any of those players.

Some incredibly generous valuations in this thread. No way we'll get near that for any of those players.

Its just a ball park figure, Pacheco maybe could attract a fee because of all the hype around him from a few years ago - both could still develop into decent players and I think a few Championship teams/Premier League sides may take a chance on them...also in the end with the signings I would like to make we would only spend £8million, so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility to keep them both!

Some incredibly generous valuations in this thread. No way we'll get near that for any of those players.

Skrtel we will at least get 8mil for and Carroll doubt we will sell for less than 15mil and with performances like he had at the weekend until the end of the season would be great! The others u cud get as little as 1mil for them estimations!

Slightly off topic, but not entirely considering that we should learn from our mistakes.  If you could go back in time to summer of 2012 and do things over again, and you could only have one of the following two for 2012-2013, which one would you pick?

1) Borini, considering the "contributions" he made this season

or

2) one more season of Maxi Rodriguez

Slightly off topic, but not entirely considering that we should learn from our mistakes.  If you could go back in time to summer of 2012 and do things over again, and you could only have one of the following two for 2012-2013, which one would you pick?

1) Borini, considering the "contributions" he made this season

or

2) one more season of Maxi Rodriguez

3) Neither?

3) Neither?

 

I would rather have Borini for the potential he offers and am still hoping he comes good but if we are talking hypotheticals I'm looking for someone different altogether.

Whatever happened to Pacheco? I remember the talk of him as the new star of the club. Everyone was shouting for Rafa to throw Pacheco on during games.. and the excitement to see if he was in the lineup..

Now nothing.

Just took a look through the player thread, and the tone of the comments changed so much through the years. Worried about Suso and Sterling too. Since his new deal, Sterling has done close to nothing.

As for the clear out, I'd be happy if Shelvey never played for LFC again. Oh, and Spearing. Two very poor players.

As for the clear out, I'd be happy if Shelvey never played for LFC again. Oh, and Spearing. Two very poor players.

Oh come off it.  Neither of them is a "very poor player."  Shelvey in fact is a very, very good player.  Much more dynamic than Henderson.  The problem with Jonjo though is that he cannot control his rash tackling.  He's never going to get game time if the manager thinks that he's a red card waiting to happen.  He's got much more potential than someone like Henderson IMO, but he'll never have the chance to improve because the manager is too afraid to put him in.  In that documentary, Rodgers told him he's got the ability to start for Liverpool for the next 10 years.  And now he can't even make the bench.  Why?  did he suddenly become a sh*te player?  No.  He can't control himself during the game and we don't have the luxury of being able to win with 10 men on the pitch.

Spearing is not a "very poor player" either.  He saved our ass during a lot of games last season and played some very tidy forward passes when he was on his game, think Stoke away in the cup last season, that set up Suarez for that wonder strike, or the final, that laser on the ground up to Gerrard.  He's no world beater but I like him a lot.  He's surely no worse in his position than, say, Downing is at his position, or Borini is at his position.

Oh come off it.  Neither of them is a "very poor player."  Shelvey in fact is a very, very good player.  Much more dynamic than Henderson. 

Although I agree that neither are poor players, there's no way Shelvey is more dynamic than Henderson.

Oh come off it.  Neither of them is a "very poor player."  Shelvey in fact is a very, very good player.  Much more dynamic than Henderson.  The problem with Jonjo though is that he cannot control his rash tackling.  He's never going to get game time if the manager thinks that he's a red card waiting to happen.  He's got much more potential than someone like Henderson IMO, but he'll never have the chance to improve because the manager is too afraid to put him in.  In that documentary, Rodgers told him he's got the ability to start for Liverpool for the next 10 years.  And now he can't even make the bench.  Why?  did he suddenly become a sh*te player?  No.  He can't control himself during the game and we don't have the luxury of being able to win with 10 men on the pitch.

I suspect there is more to it than that. Shelevey is a player with potential BUT he has a number of limitations when asked to play in Rodgers style.

- He doesn't keep the ball well enough, plays lazy passes and too often risks possession rather than retaining it (he isn't Seven Gerrard just yet)

- Despite being a fairly tall lad he doesn't cover ground the way you would expect and therefore he doesn't offer that much in terms of pressing the ball.

- His defensive work in general is not up to standard. It's not just the rash tackles, he simply isn't a particularly good tackler period.

Oh come off it.  Neither of them is a "very poor player."  Shelvey in fact is a very, very good player.  Much more dynamic than Henderson.  The problem with Jonjo though is that he cannot control his rash tackling.  He's never going to get game time if the manager thinks that he's a red card waiting to happen.  He's got much more potential than someone like Henderson IMO, but he'll never have the chance to improve because the manager is too afraid to put him in.  In that documentary, Rodgers told him he's got the ability to start for Liverpool for the next 10 years.  And now he can't even make the bench.  Why?  did he suddenly become a sh*te player?  No.  He can't control himself during the game and we don't have the luxury of being able to win with 10 men on the pitch.

Spearing is not a "very poor player" either.  He saved our ass during a lot of games last season and played some very tidy forward passes when he was on his game, think Stoke away in the cup last season, that set up Suarez for that wonder strike, or the final, that laser on the ground up to Gerrard.  He's no world beater but I like him a lot.  He's surely no worse in his position than, say, Downing is at his position, or Borini is at his position.

It was all going so well until those last few words, how in hell you bring everything back to Borini I dunno.

I'd of agreed with the whole thing in truth at the beginning of the year (Borini excluded) but Jordan has shown enough recently to suggest he is beginning to improve and I'd suggest Jonjo has regressed since his time at Blackpool.

In all honesty you'd have to blame circumstance for Jonjo's slip in form and perhaps confidence because Brendan was forced to try something different and while it worked to some degree at the time I don't honestly think it did Jonjo much benefit and without doubt needs a loan move an established run in a side at a set position.

Spearing still plays football like a child would for their school football team, always waving his arm around shouting something akin to 'pass to me'. His football is predictable. His pace is poor and his overall play is poor. He is also a liability with his self control, like Shelvey as you point out.

Shelvey can play well, but he is inconsistent and poor overall. He is also a little too arrogant, and this displays on the pitch too.

I saw Spearing against Charlton last weekend, he was sh*t.

Oh come off it.  Neither of them is a "very poor player."  Shelvey in fact is a very, very good player.  Much more dynamic than Henderson.  The problem with Jonjo though is that he cannot control his rash tackling.  He's never going to get game time if the manager thinks that he's a red card waiting to happen.  He's got much more potential than someone like Henderson IMO, but he'll never have the chance to improve because the manager is too afraid to put him in.  In that documentary, Rodgers told him he's got the ability to start for Liverpool for the next 10 years.  And now he can't even make the bench.  Why?  did he suddenly become a sh*te player?  No.  He can't control himself during the game and we don't have the luxury of being able to win with 10 men on the pitch.

Spearing is not a "very poor player" either.  He saved our ass during a lot of games last season and played some very tidy forward passes when he was on his game, think Stoke away in the cup last season, that set up Suarez for that wonder strike, or the final, that laser on the ground up to Gerrard.  He's no world beater but I like him a lot.  He's surely no worse in his position than, say, Downing is at his position, or Borini is at his position.

You've got it in for Downing and Borini a little too much. It is actually becoming pathetic! Downing has been solid this season, one of our consistent performers (not meaning he has set the world alight though of course). Spearing is a very poor player, if you think he is good enough even for our squad then you need locking up!

I'd go with this (gotta love transfermrkts fees )

Out:
Carroll [9.7mill]
Skrtel [13.3mill]
Coates [4.0mill]
Spearing [2.6mill]
Allen [13.0 mill]

+42.6 mill

In:
Wayama [4.4mill]
Eriksen [14.4mill]
Dede [6.6mill]
Ince [6.6mill]
Digne [5.7mill]

-37.7 mill

Squad:

                                                                              Pepe/Gulacsi/Jones
Johnson/Kelly/Wisdom/Flanno            Dede/Kelly/Wisdom                   Agger/Coady/Sama          Enrique/Digne/Johnson
                                                                             Lucas/Wayama/Coady
                                         Gerrard/Henderson                                             Eriksen/Shelvey/Suso
Downing/Suarez/Ince                                    Suarez/Sturridge/Borini/Yesil                           Coutinho/Sterling/Assaidi/Ince


Realistically, I can see Skrtel, Spearing, Coates leaving with Carroll a maybe if anyone offers near 15mill. I think we have a shot at Eriksen, which will be immense (Gerrard/Coutinho/Suarez/Eriksen/Sturridge - with that attacking line we have some serious options).

The key to the summer is Defensive Mid though for me (we have Kelly coming back for CB and plenty of young options if worst comes to worst) - we have been screwed every time Lucas has been out/off form for the last 2 years and need competition for places in that role. I would like a +6ft beast to batter teams and just allow our attacking quartet/quintet to focus on going forward.

Slightly off topic, but not entirely considering that we should learn from our mistakes.  If you could go back in time to summer of 2012 and do things over again, and you could only have one of the following two for 2012-2013, which one would you pick?

1) Borini, considering the "contributions" he made this season

or

2) one more season of Maxi Rodriguez

Just wonder how we were going to get one more season of Maxi Rodriguez when he had been saying since he got here that he wanted to go back to Old Boy's and finish his career where it started. He asked for a release so he could pursue his dreams and we gave it to him.

I'd go with this (gotta love transfermrkts fees )

Out:
Carroll [9.7mill]
Skrtel [13.3mill]
Coates [4.0mill]
Spearing [2.6mill]
Allen [13.0 mill]

+42.6 mill

In:
Wayama [4.4mill]
Eriksen [14.4mill]
Dede [6.6mill]
Ince [6.6mill]
Digne [5.7mill]

-37.7 mill

Never in a million years would we get £13m for Allen, we'll be lucky to get £13m for Skrtel even though I don't want us to sell him, Wanyama will cost more than £4.4m and Dede will cost more than £6.6m.

Never in a million years would we get £13m for Allen, we'll be lucky to get £13m for Skrtel even though I don't want us to sell him, Wanyama will cost more than £4.4m and Dede will cost more than £6.6m.

(gotta love transfermrkts fees )

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/

TBH even if that was 20 mill out,  would be a great summer.

Just wonder how we were going to get one more season of Maxi Rodriguez when he had been saying since he got here that he wanted to go back to Old Boy's and finish his career where it started. He asked for a release so he could pursue his dreams and we gave it to him.

You know Fed just wanted the chance to have a dig at Borini because he's been injured and hasn't gotten to lately!!

Just wonder how we were going to get one more season of Maxi Rodriguez when he had been saying since he got here that he wanted to go back to Old Boy's and finish his career where it started. He asked for a release so he could pursue his dreams and we gave it to him.

As far as I can remember he only said that in his last season here, because someone was off all over twitter saying he was leaving in the transfer window, he came out with a statement saying he was leaving at the end of his contract, which was at the end of the season.

He never uttered those words when Rafa first brought him here.