The Art of Deception...

So if we're having a pop at Brendan, then why don't we have a pop at all the players who have criticised his decisions? Reina, Suarez and Downing are hardly innocent in all of this.

In context, how aren't they innocent?

Downing said "I want to stay and fight for my place!" He demonstrated that by performing at least to his best level in the pre-season.

Reina said "I will extend my contract unless Barcelona come calling, in which case it would be difficult to turn them down." A great show of honesty something people like Rodders don't even expect from our Manager. If you don't expect honesty from our Manager to his players then what on earth can they expect of him, a crazy thought that it should be expected for him to lie, what a defence.

Suarez is a slightly different issue because he's a proven liar also, but if you take the evidence of the above 2 honest players on board also the logical approach is to believe that Brendan is simply a consistent liar to all his players and Suarez is more likely to be telling the truth in what he said about his contract. However I will concede that this one could be seen either way and would not be nearly as sure that Suarez is telling the truth, but my personal belief is that his side of the story holds more truth than Brendan's based on the surrounding evidence.

Brendan didn't 'betray' anyone. Reina and Downing were the prime architects in their move, just like Suarez is in his.

Well in fact the thread is about deception more than betrayal but I'm still not sure you're right in the case of Reina. In the case of Downing it is clear he was deceptive, betrayal, a literal translation would actually describe what he did so, not sure your statement holds any water.

People can moan that Rodger's actions is not 'the Liverpool Way', but I thought loyalty to the club was also part of this mantra that fans churn out every time there is some pathetic argument to degrade Rodgers.

While they play for us, they are part of the club, this is just a deflective statement with no substance whatsoever. "The Liverpool Way" is "The Holy Trinity" which if you forget, includes the players!

Deception is part and parcel of the modern game. Deal with it.

Translates to, I'm happy with Brendan to deceive players as he sees fit and I don't see any problem with it. Thanks for conceding the point of the argument and admitting it isn't "bullshit". I have a problem with deception and it will come back and bite you in the ass, because while you're treading on everyone on the way up, they'll generally do you no favours on your way back down. The question might be how far up do you think this style of management can take us, well only time will tell.

I'll tell you what KopiteLuke - it's another example of some bit of sour grapes from an underachieving player who has earnt a hefty wage from us paying fans trying to pin the blame on someone. And it's another example of some tiny little problem being blown up on this forum as if it's a f**king catastrophe.

I agree with the sour grapes, that's a side issue. I don't like the man or the player who is Stewart Downing, but in this context I care more about Brendan, especially now Downing has gone.

As for F***ing catastrophe, don't think anyone is painting this as a F***ing catastrophe, it's just further insight into the man we knew very little about before he joined the club. If I treated people like this who I employed I'd quickly run out of reliable and honest people to call upon and my reputation would proceed me making other people less willing to do work for me. Granted Football is a massive step away from what I do but there will be similar human responses to such deceit no matter how you underplay the gravity of behaving in such a way.

Similar comments have been made by former managers and players of bygone era and yet now it seems we're a bunch of oversensitive souls

So true... quite a few players have criticized Rafa for their treatment of them, training methods and more - just to cite an example. But back then, no one cared.
Now every single line of an interview is overanalyzed and overreaction became the norm.

In context, how aren't they innocent?

Downing said "I want to stay and fight for my place!" He demonstrated that by performing at least to his best level in the pre-season.

God forbid Titus Bramble being in our squad and declaring that - we'll have to keep him!

Reina said "I will extend my contract unless Barcelona come calling, in which case it would be difficult to turn them down." A great show of honesty something people like Rodders don't even expect from our Manager. If you don't expect honesty from our Manager to his players then what on earth can they expect of him, a crazy thought that it should be expected for him to lie, what a defence.

Honesty isn't always the best policy, especially when you're publicly stating that the club you are currently playing for and earning huge wages to boot, is a springboard for something else you prefer.

"unless Barcelona come calling", you may pat Reina on the back for his honesty but considering he had been flashing his knickers to Barca previous to this, it's fair to conclude he wasn't committed to the cause anymore. And let's not forget Reina had pretty much lost his form too, his head was turned and as someone else said - he was basically the architect of his own move.

Suarez is a slightly different issue because he's a proven liar also, but if you take the evidence of the above 2 honest players on board also the logical approach is to believe that Brendan is simply a consistent liar to all his players and Suarez is more likely to be telling the truth in what he said about his contract. However I will concede that this one could be seen either way and would not be nearly as sure that Suarez is telling the truth, but my personal belief is that his side of the story holds more truth than Brendan's based on the surrounding evidence. 

So it's logical to call Rodgers a liar because Suarez is a "proven liar"? You can't just say the "evidence of the above 2" means Rodgers is lying in the third instance. Sorry, that's not logic for me, that's being presumptuous on the premise of adding 2 and 2 together and totaling 5.

KopiteLuke - First of all, apologies for the incosistency in my post over 'betrayal' and 'deception' - I'm not saying Rodger's act towards Downing is not deception. I can certainly see why it has been taken that way - but on the scheme of things, I cannot see how this sensational argument that federer has made measures up against our very own players. All I'm asking for is perspective. If we are to criticise Rodger's over deception, then we might as well start a thread over all these other players who are currently deceiving/deceived the club.

Also I don't understand what you mean by my statement surrounding the Liverpool Way. You say in your first post that Rodger's actions are not the 'Liverpool Way'. But can you honestly sit back and think that the actions of Reina and Suarez are the Liverpool Way too? Reina is a legend, but it is simply unacceptable to almost publicly hold out for a move to Barcelona. That just stinks, and in my view, is hardly the 'Liverpool Way' either. The minute he said that, in addition to his erratic performances over the last couple of years, plans had to be made. I do not see how Reina is innocent of all charges in manouevering his way out of the club.

You also state  'If I treated people like this who I employed I'd quickly run out of reliable and honest people to call upon and my reputation would proceed me making other people less willing to do work for me.'

Try telling that to the players though. I'm sure many of them would think why on earth Downing is getting paid so much money, yet there are numerous other players who perform well above Downing's standard at Liverpool yet aren't even on half his wage. If I worked for a business that pays some underachiever vast sums of money I would be a little hacked off to be honest.

Also, I can't see it deterring future targets too much. Managers all around the world are prone to such behaviour. Not admirable, but it sinks without a trace these days, especially in a sport that talks money more than loyalty. Ruthlessness is key to a successful football manager, but more often than not, it is easy to blur the lines as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. In any normal aspect of life, I would be disappointed with Rodger's apparent behaviour (again, apparent because all we have to rely on is soundbites), but in the world of football, and particularly the modern game, this is no big deal and to be brutally honest, I'm not bothered about it.

As Diego LFC says, this is the norm for players to leave and then slate the manager. To me, this is another typical thread on this site which berates the manager for no good reason. Therefore, I still think this is a case of mountains and molehills.

I dont know who to believe anymore and now its turning into a boring reality show w/ the constant comments and sour grapes. But, I will say this.  Suarez is a liar. That is more than apparant. He also has a tendency to, for lack of a better word, cheat. Everyone knows he flops and dives and he is constsntly looking for a card or free kick. I seem to remember that the Arsenal match, when he bit Ivanovic, he was called for a handball in the box It was a joke. It was a blatant handball which he tried to disguise, he got a yellow and Arsenal were awarded a Pen kick.... A pen kick that took all our momentum in the game and gave Arsenal the win and that was AFTER the bite. Not too mention the FA Cup Handball, which wasnt seen and gave us a win. Say what you want about it, but if we want to accept that as a club and supporters, we expect players to respect our history, traditions and honors, that we must call out those who disrespect the badge and the club. I cant explain how much respect I lost for Suarez. As long as he wears our shirt, and does his job I will support his play, but that wont change my mind that he is a cheat and liar.


Reina, cant have it both ways. He cant claim he loves Liverpool, loves the club and supporters but then his loyalty only goes so far until a "Better" club like Barca come calling. Thats bullshit and If Rodgers felt that shipping him to Napoli instead of waiting for him to jump ship when Barca comes calling, thats fine. Why arent more people mad at Reina?  He is supposed to be our starting GK and trying to make our club better, instead is sitting around, earning a check until another club wants him.  Please Reina is all about Reina. He was agreat GK and I loved him and supported him, but thats complete bullshit.

Downing?  Really were arguing about losing Downing?  He didnt earn a place. Thats It. Clubs KEEP guys who play good and do their job. Clubs keep guys who earn their place and contribute EVERY match. The players who get loaned to other clubs contribute every other match or every 4 matches.

How come I never heard Gerrard say anything bad about Rodgers or Carra...How come the Swansea players never said these things about Rodgers?  People who have problems with managers or coaches or anyone, bosses whatever..have an agenda or just dont earn their spot.

Were assuming our Manager is this sneaky, scumbag who is dishonoring our club but, were completely ignoring where this information is coming from. 1 player who wants nothing to do with the club and has done everything to get out. Another guy who publicly stated he had his bagged packed for another club and the latest guy who wasn't good enough to play for the team. 

Sorry, I dont get It.

BR is probably like me; he says whatever comes into his head. Its when you have to WRITE IT DOWN it matters. Then we choose our words carefully. So players have agents who look after them ( by looking after themselves ) Im sure they take all assurances with a grain of salt. I don't think this is a case of stirring up trouble either. I think it's poor management of the players by agents and troublemaking by the papers.

KopiteLuke - First of all, apologies for the incosistency in my post over 'betrayal' and 'deception' - I'm not saying Rodger's act towards Downing is not deception. I can certainly see why it has been taken that way - but on the scheme of things, I cannot see how this sensational argument that federer has made measures up against our very own players. All I'm asking for is perspective. If we are to criticise Rodger's over deception, then we might as well start a thread over all these other players who are currently deceiving/deceived the club.

Also I don't understand what you mean by my statement surrounding the Liverpool Way. You say in your first post that Rodger's actions are not the 'Liverpool Way'. But can you honestly sit back and think that the actions of Reina and Suarez are the Liverpool Way too? Reina is a legend, but it is simply unacceptable to almost publicly hold out for a move to Barcelona. That just stinks, and in my view, is hardly the 'Liverpool Way' either. The minute he said that, in addition to his erratic performances over the last couple of years, plans had to be made. I do not see how Reina is innocent of all charges in manouevering his way out of the club.

You also state  'If I treated people like this who I employed I'd quickly run out of reliable and honest people to call upon and my reputation would proceed me making other people less willing to do work for me.'

Try telling that to the players though. I'm sure many of them would think why on earth Downing is getting paid so much money, yet there are numerous other players who perform well above Downing's standard at Liverpool yet aren't even on half his wage. If I worked for a business that pays some underachiever vast sums of money I would be a little hacked off to be honest.

Also, I can't see it deterring future targets too much. Managers all around the world are prone to such behaviour. Not admirable, but it sinks without a trace these days, especially in a sport that talks money more than loyalty. Ruthlessness is key to a successful football manager, but more often than not, it is easy to blur the lines as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. In any normal aspect of life, I would be disappointed with Rodger's apparent behaviour (again, apparent because all we have to rely on is soundbites), but in the world of football, and particularly the modern game, this is no big deal and to be brutally honest, I'm not bothered about it.

As Diego LFC says, this is the norm for players to leave and then slate the manager. To me, this is another typical thread on this site which berates the manager for no good reason. Therefore, I still think this is a case of mountains and molehills.

Fair enough, a viewpoint I can respect if not agree with.

I seem to remember that the Arsenal match, when he bit Ivanovic,

Chelsea?

So, which is more likely?  that Reina, Suarez and Downing are all two-faced liars who are out to get poor, helpless Rodgers?
or that our manager indeed is deceptive and stabs our own players in the backs?

No. Rodgers decided that the LFCREDS Transfer thread for Downing was all true.

Clubs use players like commodities and vise versa:

Reina - Had been flirting with Barca for pretty much two years, had Valdes left Barca, Reina would have been there in a heartbeat.

Suarez - This one I could believe. However, I'm also of the opinion he owes us.

Downing - Anyone who has seen Downing play knows the application isn't there, in two seasons he did next to nothing. The manager has a 'change of heart', big deal - that's football son. The writing was on the wall last season after Rodgers made him buck up, yet he plateaued again and became a passenger.
Hiding in a Red shirt was his forte.

Chelsea?

Yes...My bad, It was late and I had a few in me...

The Art of Bullshit..... by federer

The Art of Bullshit or How To Be A Bollocksmith.

If we qualify for CL this year Brendan can claim the sky is green, I personally couldn't care less. Results are what matters, all managers, ALL, talk bull when it suits their needs.

I was under the impression Downing was on his way out before, but said he wanted to stay and fight for his place, so why would he be told he was part some big plan?
I'd say BR is going to do exactly what he is told by the owners, and is prepared to take the bullets for them.
At the end of the day I guess it's something we're just going to have to put up with!
I will judge BR on how we play, not how he pleases the owners.