Cost cutting? or Using money more wisely?

Well technically you are because you can't back up what your saying yourself and it is only your personal view that is saying that it's not true. Pot Kettle Black.

See, again this is wrong.

I haven't made any assertions.

I have asked others for proof of the assertions and accusations they are making.

Person A says "FSG are ripping us off"

Person B says "Do you have any proof of that?"

Person A replies "No, but you prove that they aren't"

It's just plain silly, so you can keep your pots and kettles.

All they have done from DAY ONE is slash wages, and adopt a sell to buy policy. So our net spend is basically zero.

To even stand still we need to spend 25m a year or more.

So we are going backwards!

Debt has gone from about 40m to 80something million, the last figure I heard. With a 120m overdraft facility. Yet our income is GIGANTIC!

They don't even NEED to take money out of the LFC and Athl Grounds Ltd accounts (the "club") to take money out in PRACTICE.

The whole thing is done on leverage, a chain of companies. If Fenway's bankers see cash in LFC&AG Ltd, they will let Fenway take money out further up in the chain of companies. Or take it out as a  "permanent loan" ie never gets paid back.

Again, nothing would show up the the LFC&AG Ltd accounts.

Fenway are pretty pr astute. Thats why they did a little net spend in the Kenny transfer summer. But ofcourse that was all funded by wage cuts, not to mention the Mereiles sale etc. And brutal wage cuts the following year.

So ask yourselves the questions, WHY HAVENT THEY INVESTED ANY OF OUR MONEY?
WHY HAVENT THEY MAINTAINED THE SQUAD, LET ALONE IMPROVE IT?
WHY HAVE THEY SLASHED COSTS LIKE THEY'RE MARGARET THATCHER GOING INTO A STATE SCHOOL BUDGET MEETING ON ACID?

Answer:Because its ALL ABOUT THE MONEY THEY CAN MAKE!!

PS any SleightofHands Crew fans, I'm off out. We all know the truth, so don't try and hoodwink us, or bombard us with the Jen Chang routines.. We all saw what he was about, didn't we?

 

That may be one of the best rants I've seen on here.

Funny as F**k, factually wrong, and just hilarious.

Is impatience doing peoples heads in so much?

Impatience is a c**t alright.

How much time should we give them before it's fair to form an opinion or 'judge' them on their performance? The same amount of time they gave their 'under-preforming' Director of Football before 'judging' him; maybe the same amount of time they gave 'under-preforming' players; the same amount of time they gave 'under-preforming' managers or longer?

I'm guessing you're going to say longer. Fair enough you take as long as you like. I'm happy enough judging on what's been and what's now... I'll 'judge' their future performance when it happens and (I promise) I'll 'judge' it fairly.

 Until then... "not so far" works for me and it is the truth. 

(random nonsense)

They've had nearly 3 full years to maintain the squad, let alone improve it.
Each and every time they have declined. Either no net spend. Or brutal wage cuts meaning no net spend in practice.

You know the truth. Just admit it, your heroes just want to make money off decent hardworking Liverpool fans, solely by pr spin and flannel.

You're nothing but a troll. A bad one. Why don't you pop over to Propaganda Central ie Rawk?
Don't bother replying I'm off out. And even if I wasn't, I think a discussion with Jenny Chang would be a more sensible use of time than replying to you.

A minus 5 million net spend is money very wisely spent if you have no ambition.

Impatience is a c**t alright.

How much time should we give them before it's fair to form an opinion or 'judge' them on their performance? The same amount of time they gave their 'under-preforming' Director of Football before 'judging'; the same amount of time they gave 'under-preforming' players; the same amount of time they gave 'under-preforming' managers or longer?

I'm guessing you're going to say longer. Fair enough you take as long as you like. I'm happy enough judging on what's been and what's now... I'll 'judge' their future performance when it happens and (I promise) I'll 'judge' it fairly.

 Until then... "not so far" works for me and it is the truth. 

I agree 100% on "not so far" and the length of time is really down to the individual.
I thought 3-5 years and hoped for 3 to get us climbing back up.
We've had a couple of setbacks, what with having 2 changes of management, and that has set us back a bit more.

I certainly understand peoples concerns, because I have them myself.
What I don't understand is people going on about asset stripping, taking money out etc etc

A serious question: Who here honestly thinks that a bunch of billionaires are going to go through all this trouble and time for the sake of a piddling (for them) couple of million each?

They've had nearly 3 full years to maintain the squad, let alone improve it.
Each and every time they have declined. Either no net spend. Or brutal wage cuts meaning no net spend in practice.

You know the truth. Just admit it, your heroes just want to make money off decent hardworking Liverpool fans, solely by pr spin and flannel.

You're nothing but a troll. A bad one. Why don't you pop over to Propaganda Central ie Rawk?
Don't bother replying I'm off out. And even if I wasn't, I think a discussion with Jenny Chang would be a more sensible use of time than replying to you.

A member who only ever posts about how FSG are taking the piss and nicking all the money is calling me a troll.

That's a F***ing classic.
 

(sigh)

Until those throwing the accusations around have proved it, it's bullshit.
If the accusations have merit, it's up to them to prove their assertions.

It's not up to anyone to disprove anything, because they haven't made the assertion in the first place.

We're not having a philosophical discussion in the Schrodingers cat style for fucks sake, it's all pretty simple.

So things do not happen when they happen, they only happen when someone proves they happened ?

 So if FSG are taking money out of the club ? it will only happen when someone get hold of the accounts or some other certain proof

So things do not happen when they happen, they only happen when someone proves they happened ?

 So if FSG are taking money out of the club ? it will only happen when someone get hold of the accounts or some other certain proof

It's pretty simple
If you make an accusation, especially one of thievery, you need proof.

As I've repeatedly said, when there is real proof, I'll be grabbing my torch and pitchfork as well.

I agree 100% on "not so far" and the length of time is really down to the individual.
I thought 3-5 years and hoped for 3 to get us climbing back up.
We've had a couple of setbacks, what with having 2 changes of management, and that has set us back a bit more.

I certainly understand peoples concerns, because I have them myself.
What I don't understand is people going on about asset stripping, taking money out etc etc

A serious question: Who here honestly thinks that a bunch of billionaires are going to go through all this trouble and time for the sake of a piddling (for them) couple of million each?

You have concerns yourself? What would they be?

As I've repeatedly said, when there is real proof, I'll be grabbing my torch and pitchfork as well.

Get a receipt


Out of interest Swab can you name the posters accusing them of being thieves?

All of them please..

I dont pretend to know all the ins and outs of Football wages and finance, but I do know that FSG are following the plan the originally stated when they became owners. They NEVER stated that they were going to follow the Man City model of endless cash....They made it clear they are building this club for the future.  I said it before, I am willing to withstand a season or two of building if it means a long run of cup and title runs.

How many would prefer to see a season of unlimited cash and a run at the EPL Title for 2 years or 2-3 seasons of smart spending,  and building for a decade of cup and title runs.

I have faith in FSG because I know what they did in Boston for the Red Sox.  If you dont agree look at the history of the Boston Red Sox, then look at their history after FSG took over. The plan works and if they brought 2 Championships to Boston they will do the same in Liverpool.

You have concerns yourself? What would they be?

Our wage and incentive structure is foremost at the moment, mainly because of discussions on here regarding highly incentivised contracts for established players. I think it works for young players starting out, but not for established, quality players.

Other concerns are;
the stadium (although it is supposed to be ongoing, the buying of houses is not going well.)
Stability (3 managers in 3 years)
Our 1st team (squad is OK, I think the 1st team needs another couple)
The transfer committee (purely because they don't seem to have identified targets well at the top end of the market)
I'm also not convinced they have really learned from past mistakes.
I have concerns about Ayre continuing as MD

Another concern, based purely on rumour, is reluctance to pay agents fees.

Get a receipt


Out of interest Swab can you name the posters accusing them of being thieves?

All of them please..

PD, read the threads.
That's all you have to do.

All of them please.

It's pretty simple
If you make an accusation, especially one of thievery, you need proof.

As I've repeatedly said, when there is real proof, I'll be grabbing my torch and pitchfork as well.

I agree. Personally I don't think they are thieves, capitalists not thieves.

 But I do understand peoples concern. Looking at the little that we know, money in , money out. There are reasons to ask questions.

PD, read the threads.
That's all you have to do.

All of them please.

I'm asking you

You are asking *them for proof.. I'm asking you to name them as I dont see it, I see people questioning their ambition not their morals.

So if you are aware of people accusing them of what you are it's only fair you give their names so we all know who you mean cause as I said I don't see it.

people keep going on and on about "well spend the money we saved!" what we are saying which is not getting through is that WE ARE TRYING. the club has bought their squad players, all that is left is for first team improvements, that means buying top quality players, this is not football manager

sadly other clubs are more attractive which led us to lose a couple of our targets and also some clubs will pay more

I don't see their point at all, we are trying and willing to spend it, how is it fsgs fault they are rejecting us?

Oh my where to begin with all this..

1. 'All that's left is to improve the first team' eh that should have been the first thing done.we had months to prepare,money in the bank and its the most important thing to do. Instead we spend 2 months slashing costs

2. 'we are trying' we've made one official bid this summer fo costa. Mkhi and Willian we never bid. Not trying that hard are we

3.'other clubs more attractive' you mean Cardiff,Swansea and Southampton who have all outspent us? Or spurs who turnover less,pay less no CL. What they all have that we don't is ambition to actually succeed no just appear to.

4. Not fsg fault players are rejecting us : eh yeh it is. A blind man can see what's going n here. 3 years here only improvement is costs cut. Squad is average. Best player trying all summer to leave. -5m net spend. Just why would any top player even consider us a serious challenger for major comps?

Finally this we've had setbacks along the way bollocks which us why the 3 yr plan needs more time.all of these setbacks were caused by fsg. Hiring and firing different people. Why should fsg get more time than kenny. They've had 3 years it hasn't worked out they are not up to scratch time for them to move on.

As I've repeatedly said, when there is real proof, I'll be grabbing my torch and pitchfork as well.
 I agree. Personally I don't think they are thieves, capitalists not thieves.

 But I do understand peoples concern. Looking at the little that we know, money in , money out. There are reasons to ask questions.

JWH is one of a group of extremely rich people looking for challenges as they wind down their businesses.

FSG own a racing team, a baseball team, a TV sports network and a newspaper, and very probably have other fingers in other pies.
I really can't see them pissing about with us for 3 years for the sake of a few million quid each, after all these guys could make that in a week if they went back into trading.

What they are guilty of is underestimating how complex football can be, or overestimating their ability to run a club or appoint the right people to run it.

I always knew there would be no quick fix, and it might even take longer than the upper range of my own 5 year estimate, and only FSG can take the blame for that because of their managerial merry go round, and transfer deadline fuckups.

I'm asking you

You are asking *them for proof.. I'm asking you to name them as I dont see it, I see people questioning their ambition not their morals.

So if you are aware of people accusing them of what you are it's only fair you give their names so we all know who you mean cause as I said I don't see it.

PD, I know what I've read, but forgive me for not keeping a list or wanting to trawl through pages and pages of different threads just to make you happy.

In other words, it ain't happening, so go do it yourself.
I have better things to do with my time.

See, again this is wrong.

I haven't made any assertions.

I have asked others for proof of the assertions and accusations they are making.

Person A says "FSG are ripping us off"

Person B says "Do you have any proof of that?"

Person A replies "No, but you prove that they aren't"

It's just plain silly, so you can keep your pots and kettles.

Again? I wasn't wrong to begin with pal.

You have said you don't think the owners are, therefore I want you to prove that they are not. Simple.

As for saying it's silly, how about trying to put forward a reasonable argument instead of just constantly asking for proof? You must remember everyone has different opinions on what they think is going on where the club is concerned, you can't constantly go asking for proof just because you don't agree with that persons opinion.

PD, I know what I've read, but forgive me for not keeping a list or wanting to trawl through pages and pages of different threads just to make you happy.

In other words, it ain't happening, so go do it yourself.
I have better things to do with my time.

Ok then you have answered it yourself

It ain't there

I'd say you owe them an apology but it seems there is no one to apologise to.





Nothing wrong with questioning ambition.. I wouldn't confuse the difference in that with anything else Swab..

If you want to talk ambition then ill debate it all day but I haven't and neither have I seen anyone else accuse them of stealing from the club.
Being in over their heads maybe..
Probably not doing due diligence prior to buying the club maybe..
Lacking the knowledge of the game to push us on maybe..
Lacking ambition maybe..
Trying to run us on paper maybe...

Stealing? Nah.. And I fail to see anyone else to being doing that what you accuse them of either

Again? I wasn't wrong to begin with pal.

You have said you don't think the owners are, therefore I want you to prove that they are not. Simple.

As for saying it's silly, how about trying to put forward a reasonable argument instead of just constantly asking for proof? You must remember everyone has different opinions on what they think is going on where the club is concerned, you can't constantly go asking for proof just because you don't agree with that persons opinion.

Well yes you are wrong pal because I made no assertions.
I didn't say "oh no they are not taking money out"
When someone accused them of doing it I asked for proof.
That's it.

So to suggest I need to make someone elses case to prove my own when I have made no assertions is frankly absurd.

If it's just an opinion, I have absolutely no problem with it.
You'll notice that the only posts I have directly addressed are those stating the owners are asset stripping or taking money out of the club.
I think asking for proof of that is a perfectly reasonable position, given the magnitude of the accusations.

Ok then you have answered it yourself

It ain't there

I'd say you owe them an apology but it seems there is no one to apologise to.





Nothing wrong with questioning ambition.. I wouldn't confuse the difference in that with anything else Swab..

If you want to talk ambition then ill debate it all day but I haven't and neither have I seen anyone else accuse them of stealing from the club.
Being in over their heads maybe..
Probably not doing due diligence prior to buying the club maybe..
Lacking the knowledge of the game to push us on maybe..
Lacking ambition maybe..
Trying to run us on paper maybe...

Stealing? Nah.. And I fail to see anyone else to being doing that what you accuse them of either

Oh, please don't try that sh*t with me PD.
Trying to guilt me into doing your research for you?
Saying because I can't be arsed means it's untrue?
F**k right off, because you can find it in this very thread in posts by american plant

I didn't come down in the last shower.
Another one I thought was better than that.
Looks like I was wrong again.