"We Need To Talk About Gerrard."

Nobody is doubting he's an accomplished sideways passer of the ball, rarely loses possession, these are things I'd expect as a bare minimum to even be considered a squad player at this club.

Just to be clear; you aren't talking about Lucas here; right? 

I never said he was sh*t, no reason to put words in my mouth. I said he and Gerrard were awful for the first 30 minutes. I actually said that Henderson got better as the game went on and his undoubted relentless energy came into effect when the Palace side began to tire. Nobody is doubting he's an accomplished sideways passer of the ball, rarely loses possession, these are things I'd expect as a bare minimum to even be considered a squad player at this club.

we'll agree to disagree, the tackling stuffs is very petty by the way, he won the ball whether it was a tackle or a block

Just to be clear; you aren't talking about Lucas here; right? 

Not in the slightest BBB, he's actually been passing slide-rule passes forward quite often. Lucas doesn't get nearly the credit he should for his quick starting of our attacks and extremely precise passing of the ball.

Lucas doesn't get nearly the credit he should for his quick starting of our attacks and extremely precise passing of the ball.

It was tongue-in- cheek Luke but, that said, I think Lucas gets plenty of credit on here, to be fair.

To be honest, being serious here, for a minute; the Lucas/Gerrard partnership echoes the 'difficulties' with the Lucas/Masch partnership (to my mind anyhow). Both very good in their own right but, played together, they leave the team a bit immobile at the heart of midfield. It's all about the team and (in my opinion) the team would be better served without the 'two' playing, practically, beside each other.

Just to be clear: I have no issue with Lucas as an individual performer.

I don't want to get into the Lucas - Henderson argument, but surely you can see the benefit of having a player with "undoubted relentless energy " in midfield? I don't think we have seen that sort of running since Masch left (not comparing him to Masch btw )

I honestly expected when Allen came that he would supply this type of energy, but sadly he has so far failed to adapt, but unlike many I still have hopes for him.

Both Lucas and Henderson have strengths and weaknesses, for me the deciding factor will be which one works best with Gerrard. In truth I believe there are much better midfielders out there, I just hope we buy one at Christmas.   

It was tongue-in- cheek Luke but, that said, I think Lucas gets plenty of credit on here, to be fair.

To be honest, being serious here, for a minute; the Lucas/Gerrard partnership echoes the 'difficulties' with the Lucas/Masch partnership (to my mind anyhow). Both very good in their own right but, played together, they leave the team a bit immobile at the heart of midfield. It's all about the team and (in my opinion) the team would be better served without the 'two' playing, practically, beside each other.

Just to be clear: I have no issue with Lucas as an individual performer.

I know it was tongue in cheek mate but don't think Lucas gets nearly the credit he deserves in that respect. Credit in general, yes he gets plenty and most of it well deserved. I do agree with you completely about the 'two' being the problem rather than singling out an individual performer. I just don't believe for a second that Henderson is the answer to the defensive midfield position and we'd get thoroughly exposed by better players.

The only one we haven't tried, to my knowledge, is Lucas and Henderson which I'm pretty sure wouldn't have the creativity to work but isn't really discussed too much and why I was happy to see this Gerrard thread pop up.

Personally believe the long term answer may lie in replacing both for more dynamic players and why I was all for bringing in competition in there this season, unfortunately that wasn't addressed and we are still mending and making do in my opinion. What I would say is out of all our midfielders Lucas is the most natural and best fit at the position he does play but you'd get almost lynched for suggesting dropping Gerrard it seems.

So in this comment you go from saying he's better in the second (box-to-box) midfield position and would prefer Gerrard to play the DM midfielder, then you claim he was shown in a better light in his natural position? Can't have it both ways.

I have no idea what you are on about.

For my take on it, Henderson's best position would be the box-to-box player you describe, unfortunately he doesn't have the creativity or goal threat to actually make that position his own, if he did then he could perhaps develop into a useful player there. Similarly the same problem arises when you try to fit him in the defensive midfield role, because he doesn't have the strength, tackling ability or positional sense to fill that role effectively against anything attack with any teeth. To further demonstrate this watch our games when we've played Henderson and Allen in there, possibly our worst performances in central midfield in my recent memory.
 

He really doesn't need all that creativity as you suggest which is more than what Lucas provides anyhow. With Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge ahead of him he just needs to feed them the ball, something he is certainly capable of.

This 7 tackle thing keeps cropping up though and from what the youtube vid shows you is there are not 7 "tackles" there are 5 blocks, 1 tackle and 1 in between, so be kind and say 2 tackles. If a block of a pass is now considered a tackle then I'm sorry I completely disagree with that description and full-backs must be doing well with their number of "tackles" per game from all the crosses they "tackle".

You seem hung up on this stat. I'm not, it doesn't bother me as my eyes confirmed that Henderson had a good game.

Also your assertion that we "lose territory" with "the immobile crab Lucas" couldn't be further from the truth in the first half of all our games, he's actually been winning possession on the edge of the opposition on many occasion. I don't know if you expect him to be winning possession in their box but there isn't much more territory for him to win than that. In the 2nd half against Palace we dropped deeper and deeper too and in fact that suited Henderson better because the game became congested around him and he wasn't caught out of position as much. When the game was stretched in the first half due to us attacking more he was caught completely cold on a good few occasions and was simply chasing shadows. The fact that Palace don't have nearly enough in their team to cause proper problems for our excellent 3 central defenders should not in anyway excuse the faults that were occurring in front of them. I also hold Gerrard responsible for this too by the way.

We've lost territory in most of our second half displays where we have gone in with the lead at half time. This perhaps maybe a 'team thing' a mentality thing but it plays into Lucas's and Gerrard's lack of mobility where both are content to stand on the CB's toes and screen.

Midfielders who press will get caught out of position from time to time, that is something you'll have to live with - if you're going to bemoan Henderson isn't creative enough, you can't also bemoan he's been caught out of position when he's advanced in helping attack - "you can't have it both ways". At least Henderson had the drive to bomb forward and also mobility to get back and help out. If you play with a more rigid/adventurous midfield pairing like Gerrard and Lucas and use one of the midfielders to impose himself you'll inevitably leave gaps, that's the price you pay. Bare in mind Palace also played with 3 up front so they certainly had the numbers and adventure to cause us grief. 

It would be very interesting to see what would come of playing Lucas with Henderson because I do think Gerrard is escaping a lot of criticism that is being shipped onto his midfield partners

That option wouldn't feel me with confidence for some reason, perhaps because it leaves our captain out and I don't think this side are quite ready for that in the center of the park. Although it would be interesting to see it around the 60-70th minute mark in a game we're coasting in, to give a ago, certainly.

As for the Suarez and Sturridge statement, irrelevant because they've proven it against better opposition, the exact thing part of my argument against Henderson is based on.

And you advocate we don't use Henderson in the future against better opposition because you can see into the future.

It is also interesting to note that your assertion that Rodgers will resort to Lucas as soon as he's available. Either you believe you know better than our Manager or you accept that you're wrong, because I'm sure Lucas will come straight into the side too and rightly so.

I don't believe I know better than our manager and nor do I accept that I am wrong. Opinions are subjective.

Beerbelly:

Firstly,

You described Henderson as a natural in the position he played, which was the defensive midfield position.
You then said that he would be seen in a better light playing the 1 forward and dropping Gerrard into the defensive midfield position.

I said you can't have this both ways, either Henderson's best position is defensive midfielder (natural position in your statement) or his best position is the box-to-box midfielder (where he'll be seen in a better light in your statement) both cannot be true!

He really doesn't need all that as you suggest which is more than what Lucas provides anyhow. With Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge ahead of him he just needs to feed them the ball, something he is certainly capable of.

While I'm a massive fan of Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge if you believe all we need to do to win games is get one of them to drop deep and Henderson pass the ball off to them would be enough then I disagree. If in your "feeding them the ball" you're alluding to more creativity then you're contradicting yourself, so again "you can't have it both ways".

Your next point relates to Henderson getting caught out of position and you somehow attempt to suggest he was "helping the attack" or "being too creative" and that's what caused him to get caught out, again this is a contradiction. Running out of position is not pressing, I said he didn't press enough, pressing is applying pressure without giving an opportunity for your opponents to exploit the space you've left, that's why I said he has no positional sense and is exposed too easily. With regards creativity, I brought it up in relation to the box-to-box position, if he is caught out of position being "too creative" (hilarious assertion by the way) while playing the defensive midfielder position, he is already at fault. His number 1 role is to not get caught out of position, ever, he is the cover for others.

And you advocate we don't use Henderson in the future against better opposition because you can see into the future.

No I said that Suarez and Sturridge are proven against better opposition as you presented them as a basis for the defense of Henderson who isn't proven against better opposition in the defensive midfielder position, another contradiction which you're now compounding.

I don't believe I know better than our manager and nor do I accept that I am wrong. Opinions are subjective.

Opinions are subjective but for you to believe yours is right you cannot accept Brendan's to be right also? To simplify; if you believe a pen is blue and Brendan believes a pen is red, what colour is the pen?

You described Henderson as a natural in the position he played, which was the defensive midfield position.You then said that he would be seen in a better light playing the 1 forward and dropping Gerrard into the defensive midfield position 

Better read back and check whether I said Henderson's best position is DM. If you still insist I said, or even implied this, I can only conclude you are putting words into my mouth.

While I'm a massive fan of Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge if you believe all we need to do to win games is get one of them to drop deep and Henderson pass the ball off to them would be enough then I disagree. If in your "feeding them the ball" you're alluding to more creativity then you're contradicting yourself, so again "you can't have it both ways".
Your next point relates to Henderson getting caught out of position and you somehow attempt to suggest he was "helping the attack" or "being too creative" and that's what caused him to get caught out, again this is a contradiction. Running out of position is not pressing, I said he didn't press enough, pressing is applying pressure without giving an opportunity for your opponents to exploit the space you've left, that's why I said he has no positional sense and is exposed too easily. With regards creativity, I brought it up in relation to the box-to-box position, if he is caught out of position being "too creative" (hilarious assertion by the way) while playing the defensive midfielder position, he is already at fault. His number 1 role is to not get caught out of position, ever, he is the cover for others.   

If I think Henderson is feeding our forwards the ball and alluding this to be creativity, I am contradicting myself? Again, I have no idea what you are on about.


You said he didn't press enough, well then you watched a different game to me. Pressing is a unit thing with two or three other players, it still can be exploited but not as easily if the trio for example all press. I saw Henderson pressing, harrying the opposition, using his energy to close down, intercept, track back and get forward to pull off an assured performance, you obviously didn't. Like I said, we must have watched two different games.


You said Henderson doesn't play the ball forward, in the youtube  clip YOU posted this flaws your (unbeknownst to me) bias opinion.


Who said he is playing the DM role, did Rodgers personally tell you that? Or is this another assumption of yours like the one where you claimed I said Henderson was playing DM?


I think all your assumptions about Henderson are based on the fact that you think he played DM - thus the angle from where you are coming from (dropping out of position, being caught out etc etc) are based on the fact he was tasked with playing a conservative role. That patently wasn't the case. Moreover if one of Gerrard went forward the other would sit, Henderson went forward, Gerrard would sit and vice verse, none of this rigidness you allude to which seems to underpin your whole argument about Henderson being out of position blah blah.

No I said that Suarez and Sturridge are proven against better opposition as you presented them as a basis for the defense of Henderson who isn't proven against better opposition in the defensive midfielder position, another contradiction which you're now compounding.

Given that Henderson has played for the first time as a CM I can't present no other defense and point out as to why he should be used there again apart from this game. Where he indeed had a good game. As you have the gift of seeing into the future to determine whether Henderson will be able to do the job there, or in your case not do the job there; I'm unfortunate that I don't have that gift. I am basing my opinion on his Palace performance I can only logical conclude it's worth giving him another go to see if he can do it against the better sides.

Opinions are subjective but for you to believe yours is right you cannot accept Brendan's to be right also? To simplify; if you believe a pen is blue and Brendan believes a pen is red, what colour is the pen?

Brendan hasn't picked the team for Newcastle yet, well not that I know of. So, I don't know who he will pick but I think he'll pick Lucas primarily because we're away from home and he may want to have more defensive cover in front of the defense. He may actually want a specific DM for this game, something Henderson isn't.

But if you want to make this a willy waving contest by going on about who's right and wrong, well I suppose the only way to find out is to wait for the team selection, the game to be played, the performance of midfield and the result to be set. Even still, leaving Lucas out for example and playing Henderson with a win against the Magpies won't certainly prove I am right (being right isn't what this is all about) because he could have still picked Lucas and won against the Magpies too. So it's subjective to assume either positions taken up (either playing Lucas or Henderson) are either right or wrong. I've merely concluded that on the performance given yesterday Henderson is well worth the shot again, I think Rodgers may see it differently for reasons already explained.

I think what we have seen is BR using the 2 deep lying midfielders in a Brazilian way, rather than a European or English way, and this has led to some confusion.
So, we have the 2 volante system, which may seem like the English style of one holding midfielder and one pushing forwards, but is more complex than that, especially when playing 3 centre backs, which allows the "holding" player to push up that little bit more to press and add a playmaker element further up the pitch.
Of course with any change of system it takes time to adapt, especially when the changes are subtle, but I think this is where BR has been trying to move us up a level, to create a higher defensive line but still keep creativity in the opponents half from a deeper position (like around the centre circle), whilst retaining defensive cover and pressing further up.
In other words, this system frees up more players than the flat back 4, and also allows for more creativity further up the pitch, but it takes time for players to adapt.
If we stay with this system, it will become noticeably better when Johnson and Cissokho are fit, with more width and pace and more passing options.

I'm probably completely wrong, but that's how I see it

If we stay with this system, it will become noticeably better when Johnson and Cissokho are fit, with more width and pace and more passing options.

I think the system will improve with Agger back in the team mate. 

Although we've looked more solid defensively we're still playing very deep.  This plays to Skrtels strengths but leaves a huge gap between the cb's and midfield.  I think once Agger is back we'll play a higher line meaning the midfield have less space to cover and are closer to the attacking 3.

Yes we really need Aly, Glen and Phil back but I believe Agger back will make a massive difference to how we look and hopefully we'll be less exhausted in the latter stages of matches.

Brillant! Absolutely Faboulous the discussions going on in page 8. Great defending, attacking, counter attacking, thinking into all that writing, particular the debate with BeerBelly and Kopiteluke.
Deffo the No.1 LFC site.

I think we should take Gerrard off Corners and utilise him in the box, Henderson should take them as he has the pace to get back after he's taken a corner and poses no real threat in the air. Gerrard could sit on the edge of the 18 and we could either whip it in the box or pass it to him to smash in the back of the net. We've now seen that Suarez will prob take 90% of the free kicks with Gerrard prob only having the indirect ones to hit the ball after a layoff.
We need to prep a team for life without our legendary skipper as it will make the horrible cut off from him a tiny bit easier to bear.

Seemed like he couldn't be bothered to me, Grandad Giggs was all over him in his desire to win.

As has been said many times before Stevie had never been the most technical player but his athleticism and drive has covered his shortcomings. Unfortunately Father Time waits for no one!

Love Stevie to bits but it's obvious he can't play the role next to Lucas or maybe even every game.

I'm at a a loss as to how Steven Gerrard can be described as not being very "technical".
 
For a start, I'm not even sure what it means. What "shortcomings" does Gerrard have, given he's possibly the best player to ever play for Liverpool?

Gerrard not in our Top 5 players?
 
Allen should replace him when fit?
 
Lucas first name on the teansheet?
 
So much hilarity. So little time.
 
And could someone please confirm that "pressing" is just another internet w*nk term for "closing down" and is therefore nothing new and nothing that all of our best teams and players have always done?
 
Thanks

And could someone please confirm that "pressing" is just another internet w*nk term for "closing down" and is therefore nothing new and nothing that all of our best teams and players have always done?
 

Differences exists between pressing and closing down, as well as similarities, but judging by the tone & style if your posts it would be a waste of time explaining it to you. 

Differences exists between pressing and closing down, as well as similarities, but judging by the tone & style if your posts it would be a waste of time explaining it to you.

You're probably right. I don't wish to overstretch my misfiring synapses too much. Maybe one step at a time, and then one day, maybe one day not too far away, I can espouse confidnetly on how we would be a much more successful team utilising the double-volante pivot, and that Steven Gerrard isn't technical enough to play within such a system correctly.

You're probably right. I don't wish to overstretch my misfiring synapses too much. Maybe one step at a time, and then one day, maybe one day not too far away, I can espouse confidnetly on how we would be a much more successful team utilising the double-volante pivot, and that Steven Gerrard isn't technical enough to play within such a system correctly.

When we acquire the means to utilise a double-volante system it can be judged if Gerrard has the technical ability to take advantage of that concept, as it is our search for such gifted wide men continues, therefore Gerrards capability to play in such a formation is entirely hypothetical as is the rather previous critique.

You're probably right. I don't wish to overstretch my misfiring synapses too much. Maybe one step at a time, and then one day, maybe one day not too far away, I can espouse confidnetly on how we would be a much more successful team utilising the double-volante pivot, and that Steven Gerrard isn't technical enough to play within such a system correctly.

I didn't say you wouldn't comprehend, I said it would be a waste of time.  Thank you for clarifying my point with your reply.

I think he is still instrimental to our success this season, yes we could prob start to look to take him off with say 20min to go if the game is already won but he must start. The route of the problem in my opinion is Lucas and that i think Gerrard has lost faith in his ability to cover just like old times and he's doing alot of running to cover for lucas lack of mobility. I'd even try a cheeky move for Alonso (if interested) for a 2yr deal

Haven't read any of the previous posts on this particular thread.

Just saw Stevie's goal vs Poland, and, I had to come on here and say that THAT is what he can still do and THAT is what football still means to him.

I know I'm gonna get a lot of stick for saying this, the way he played for England last night was completely different, always looking to get forwards. In other words he looked so fired up, and he hasnt got forward for us like that this season so far. Now its probably cause of the managers instructions to him, I dunno.

What do you guys think? Is it just me or do you guys see something similar?

I know I'm gonna get a lot of stick for saying this, the way he played for England last night was completely different, always looking to get forwards. In other words he looked so fired up, and he hasnt got forward for us like that this season so far. Now its probably cause of the managers instructions to him, I dunno.

What do you guys think? Is it just me or do you guys see something similar?

Yea he looked like the Stevie G of 4 years ago last night bursting forward creating chances at every opportunity and then scoring.
I think his deep lying play maker role he plays for us now has a lot to do with the manager wanting to build attacks and not just hit teams on the counter attack. Also I think BR wants Stevie on the pitch for the full 90 mins every game and at his age thinks he can't play the attacking midfield role effectively for that length of time. Or perhaps it's because he doesn't want Lucas to be exposed in the middle over his lack of pace.

Either way I hope BR took note of Stevie's performance last night and plays him in the no. 10 role against Newcastle cus he is clearly still up for it!