Potential vs Proven

Ok, this might be a bit obvious to some, most perhaps, but bear with me

We sign a lot of young potential talent because it seems to be FSG and the Gaffer's Modus Operandi. Great if it works (Couts £8m?), disaster if not (Markovic £20m?). FSG we think, do this for long term gains on the pitch, and/or shorter term financial gain if/when they are to be sold. Question I asked is have they gotten it all backward?

I think the way to go is to buy proven older players for two reasons

1. They are proven (obvious)
2. They stay at your club

The second one is massive and only just hit me (I'm a slow learner ). Sure a proven player is going to cost more money and wages, but, let's say you buy a proven player at the age of 26, maybe even 27.  I used to think, ok, but you've just spent £40m on a player that's going to be 30 in 4 or even 3 years time! That's not planning for the future! Then I though screw the future - your youth academy takes care of that. Plan for the present, get the players in, win a bunch of stuff, recoup that money spent, and everyone is happy.

The real eye opener for me was when I thought, imagine us going out and paying say, £65m for a 27 year old. Times past I'd have choked in disbelief; that's a lot of money for one player who is 30 in 3 years time! Until I realised that's exactly what happened to us with Suarez and Barca

Imagine us buying Suarez, this season for £75m, knowing what he'd done over the last 3 seasons. Kwality! He signs a 3 or 4 year contract and is with us until he's 30 or 31, at which time he's now thinking of spending his twilight years for Boca Juniors or whichever team is his hometown. And thanks for the best years of your career.

I remember when the scum bought 28 or 29 year old Van Persie for £26m and laughed - right up until I thought 'Balls! He just won them their 20th title'. And even though we beat AC Milan in Istanbul, wasn't that a classy side with most players over 30? Didn't we sign Dalglish at 26 and Barnes at 24? Ok, not a pup, but old enough to have proven he was proven.

Sure you look around for potential (Origi has potential), but I believe, with the big Spanish clubs, any 'real' potential, like Messi and Neymar, are going to be snapped up long before we get a sniff. For the most part. So for me, we have to start buying proven players because they're proven and they stay at your club. Or if they are sold, they are sold at the age when you'd start looking for replacements anyway! Hindsight, but, do you want Markovic (sorry - I know he didn't demand that amount) for £20m or Lampard (assuming he'd come) for nothing? Proven is proven. Proven should be supplemented with potential and not potential supplemented with more potential.

Let's put a bit in for Ibrahimovic in January. £35m should get him (only half joking). Not to be taken literally but the gist is we should now start looking to buy quality proven older players instead of potential youth.

You need a certain amount of experienced players in a team Rush and we clearly don't have enough of them.

You need a certain amount of experienced players in a team Rush and we clearly don't have enough of them.

Si, that's down to the manager getting rid of experienced players & taking a risk with inexperienced players but flip the coin,  Lallanna,Ballotelli,Lambert,Lovren,Mignolet all have experience in the PL so there should be no excuses.

I would rather always go for quality than quantity, a world class defender,Midfielder & striker would transfer our fortunes without a doubt.

Si, that's down to the manager getting rid of experienced players & taking a risk with inexperienced players but flip the coin,  Lallanna,Ballotelli,Lambert,Lovren,Mignolet all have experience in the PL so there should be no excuses.

I would rather always go for quality than quantity, a world class defender,Midfielder & striker would transfer our fortunes without a doubt.

Which prompts the question 'why is the manager of LFC doing an impression of a mid-table club and not picking the prime cuts'?
The only reason the expensive deals are ignored is through reasons of finance. BR has no say in the financial matters of the club. 

I remember when the scum bought 28 or 29 year old Van Persie for £26m and laughed - right up until I thought 'Balls! He just won them their 20th title'.

 

This.

To be honest it doesn't matter, it comes down to quality.

Glen Johnson was a proven player when we bought him for 17 million quid, Glen Johnson is still a proven player and yet he's still F***ing sh*te like he has been for his entire Liverpool career. We've let potential players like Kelly and Wisdom go this year in order to keep Johnson.

We bought a, so called, proven player in both Balotelli and Lambert. Start of November and neither of them have a Premier League goal. A potential player at West Brom called Berahino has already netted 7 League goals.

Some proven players work, some potential players work. Alternatively some proven players don't work out, some potential players don't. But the only way the potential players do become proven is by giving them a go.

To be honest it doesn't matter, it comes down to quality.

Glen Johnson was a proven player when we bought him for 17 million quid, Glen Johnson is still a proven player and yet he's still F***ing sh*te like he has been for his entire Liverpool career. We've let potential players like Kelly and Wisdom go this year in order to keep Johnson.

We bought a, so called, proven player in both Balotelli and Lambert. Start of November and neither of them have a Premier League goal. A potential player at West Brom called Berahino has already netted 7 League goals.

Some proven players work, some potential players work. Alternatively some proven players don't work out, some potential players don't. But the only way the potential players do become proven is by giving them a go.

Well said Billy.  Every signing is a gamble.

Didn't Stephen Gerrard say something about this recently then said oh it's the clubs philosophy at the mo. The attitude at the clubs top tier is fu**ed up, we should be getting the best when they are at their best and using them for any years they are at that top level for.
Whether it be 2 years, 4 or whatever.
I feel like I'm supporting the equivalent of the Nike swoosh or adidas three stripes sometimes these days.
A brand, a business model wtf? This is my football club what I've loved since I was 3 not the F***ing ASDA.
I get paid to name drop btw.

For me Lambert was proven, but proven mediocrity

Johnson was proven, a proven right back who was better at going forward than defending

Lovren was a proven mediocre defender

I agree with what you're saying DLS. You obviously need to have a certain tactical nous about who you buy in the transfer market. But even more so with young potential.

Let's face it, Johnson was a great buy for two season possibly three, but went downhill. Still, he was quality at first. That's two to three seasons of a top world class international defender as opposed to a Manquillo, or a Moreno who might be class in years to come.

Well said Billy.  Every signing is a gamble.

But some (young potential) more than others (proven)

When I say proven, I mean proven quality. Players who we know are good solid players, because we've watched them year after year. Even world class players. Players who will cost you more, true, but when you figure in the wages of the young potentials (and there may be 3 or 4 of them in a batch) that will go up and up and for a good few years until we release they can't cut it, I think it's worth it. Less of a gamble. After all, you can't get away from the fact that today, success costs money

Ok I'm no businessman, I have no idea of the internal workings, but on the surface, I think it's well worth it (perhaps someone could check my calculations)

Let's say you have 4 young potentials are earning £60k a week, over 4 years. That's

£49.92m in wages.

Then there's that 1 proven player on say, £300k a week, over 4 years. That's £62.4m in wages.

Both types of players will see their wages rise each season, but for the sake of brevity and sanity (with 4 potential player wages rising against the 1 proven player's wages rising) we'll say it cancels out.

The differences is £12.48m, or, £3.12m a year. A figure that is easily recouped with one ECL

qualification. Let alone TV rights, sponsorship deals etc.

Well said Billy.  Every signing is a gamble.

Aye, I agree with that love but unfortunately Brendan's record in the transfer market is more gambles failing than succeeding. And that's with both proven and potential.

For me Lambert was proven, but proven mediocrity

Johnson was proven, a proven right back who was better at going forward than defending

Lovren was a proven mediocre defender

I agree with what you're saying DLS. You obviously need to have a certain tactical nous about who you buy in the transfer market. But even more so with young potential.

Let's face it, Johnson was a great buy for two season possibly three, but went downhill. Still, he was quality at first. That's two to three seasons of a top world class international defender as opposed to a Manquillo, or a Moreno who might be class in years to come.

We obviously have a huge difference of opinion in what is a world class defender because since the day Johnson signed, he's been sh*t in my opinion. Vastly overrated by our fans. And a complete downgrade on Arbeloa who he replaced.

I agree with the tactical nous being needed, maybe with more youngsters but our record over the past decade or two when signing proven players hasn't exactly shone either. Our last ten years of transfers has seen this; (I'll mark in bold the ones I consider a hit and I haven't put kids like Barragan, Ibe, Ilori in as they haven't had any chances to prove their worth)

04/05 - Cisse, Josemi, Nunez, Alonso, Garcia, Carson, Morientes and Pelligrino.
05/06 - Reina, Sissoko, Zenden, Crouch, Gonzalez, Fowler, Kromkamp, Agger
06/07 - Kuyt, Bellamy, Aurelio Pennant, Arbeloa, Mascherano, Paletta
07/08 - Torres, Lucas, Voronin, Benayoun, Babel, Itandje, Insua, Skrtel
08/09 - Degen, Keane, Riera, Ngog, Dossena
09/10 - Sterling, Maxi, Kyrgiakos, Johnson, Aquilani
10/11 - Cole, Wilson, Jovanovic, Poulsen, Meireles, Jones, Shelvey, Konchesky, Suarez, Carroll
11/12 - Henderson, Adam, Coates, Bellamy, Enrique, Downing
12/13 - Allen, Assaidi, Borini, Sahin, Sturridge, Coutinho
13/14 - Aspas, Alberto, Toure, Mignolet, Sakho, Moses, Cissokho
14/15 - Markovic, Lallana, Lambert, Balotelli, Lovren, Manquillo, Moreno, Can.

That's 10 years of a blend of proven and potential and by and large our transfers have been shocking. Even if people wanna claim players like Sissoko and Lucas as successes, it doesn't make great reading. There's been something wrong with our transfer dealings for too long.

I have always believed that you build your team with quality players and then you supplement it by adding even better players and prospects. You don't try to build your team WITH prospects or you are always waiting for some of them to mature and never reaching the stage where you are winning titles.

Much easier to integrate one or two quality prospects into an already strong and successful team than trying to integrate 4 or 5 prospects into a team that is still developing or struggling.



 

Let's face it, Johnson was a great buy for two season possibly three, but went downhill. Still, he was quality at first. That's two to three seasons of a top world class international defender as opposed to a Manquillo, or a Moreno who might be class in years to come.

So we paid top dollar in both fee and wages for Johnson, who had 2 or 3 good seasons where we won nothing but because he was proven when we bought him, it's ok to have to pay top dollar for him for another 3 seasons to be sh*t, yet you won't give the young players with potential 2 or 3 months to show what they can do.  Imagine if we sold them this summer and in a couple of years time they're even better than Glen was at his peak, we'd all be kicking ourselves.

But some (young potential) more than others (proven)

When I say proven, I mean proven quality. Players who we know are good solid players, because we've watched them year after year. Even world class players. Players who will cost you more, true, but when you figure in the wages of the young potentials (and there may be 3 or 4 of them in a batch) that will go up and up and for a good few years until we release they can't cut it, I think it's worth it. Less of a gamble. After all, you can't get away from the fact that today, success costs money

I'm not sure how much you think our young lads are on or how much proven players demand when they change clubs.

The likes of Can and Markovic are probably on about £30k, Manquillo maybe £20k, that's 3 players who can improve for less than (a god awful for 2 seasons) Glen Johnson.

I know you don't mean we should buy past it players but that example is why our owners won't buy proven quality players.  You might get a couple of good seasons out of them, win nothing despite them costing a fortune, then you can't get rid of them and have to pay them even more to see their contract out.

They've said it enough times over the years, I can't see them changing their minds, even though it's obvious to us.

Ok I'm no businessman, I have no idea of the internal workings, but on the surface, I think it's well worth it (perhaps someone could check my calculations)

Let's say you have 4 young potentials are earning £60k a week, over 4 years. That's

£49.92m in wages.

Then there's that 1 proven player on say, £300k a week, over 4 years. That's £62.4m in wages.

Both types of players will see their wages rise each season, but for the sake of brevity and sanity (with 4 potential player wages rising against the 1 proven player's wages rising) we'll say it cancels out.

The differences is £12.48m, or, £3.12m a year. A figure that is easily recouped with one ECL

qualification. Let alone TV rights, sponsorship deals etc.

Doesn't work like that mate.  The figures for the young players is way out of line, probably half your estimates out of line so that's skewed the calculations.  Plus the young players won't get improved contracts each year.  If they are playing regularly and contributing like Cou, Hendo, Flanno, Danny and Raheem did last season their contract will be looked at after 2 or 3 years like all the players mentioned have.  If they aren't living up to the hype, they'll be sold and the next big thing will be bought or an Academy graduate will come in.

Our transfer policy is too rigid. We're two focused on our philosophy of buying young talented players (for inflated fees some might say) developing those players and looking to sell for a mark up in a few years.

They do this because the wages are minimal, if they do not succeed then you can still get some resale value and in some cases the player can out perform all expectations.

I agree we need to follow that ideology because we can't buy world class players every time to purchase a player.

However we need to be more flexible. There's needs to be a way that in certain circumstances, we can enter the transfer market and sign a player of the highest quality.

We sold Suarez, we needed to replace him with a player of similar quality. Forget all this bullshit about quantity excuses. We needed quantity whether or not Suarez stayed or not.

During the summer many people were saying "well we've definitely improved the squad, but the team isn't as strong" and that's why we should have signed a top quality replacement for Suarez.

We failed to acquire Sanchez (who's already hit 10 goals this season) and then from what I can see, we just ran out of ideas, made a couple of inquires for Falcao and gave up on him because we were too scared to compete with other clubs for him (a player who ended up at United with CL football ffs)

And with us panicking with a couple of weeks to go we signed Balotelli, all because he was available for a reasonable price, and that we made half hearted attempts at signing other players.

I think John Henry commented when he first came here buying players with no sell on value was madness and I tend in principal to agree with him. Bringing sanity to a madhouse is great but your still in a mad house and that's football its a madhouse with little logic to it.
Surely all players with potential HAVE to come form the academy and we should only buy proven players who have performed at the highest level. The only exception would be buying a player from a lower league club and developing him.

To be honest it doesn't matter, it comes down to quality.

I thought it was painfully obvious Rush was talking about proven quality to be honest. 

So we paid top dollar in both fee and wages for Johnson, who had 2 or 3 good seasons where we won nothing but because he was proven when we bought him, it's ok to have to pay top dollar for him for another 3 seasons to be sh*t

I never said that it is ok to keep paying him whilst he is sh*te. We should have gotten rid two or three seasons ago. But that's another topic.

, yet you won't give the young players with potential 2 or 3 months to show what they can do.

I have never said we shouldn't give potential a chance. I said we should consider getting proven quality and supplement with youthful promise.

  Imagine if we sold them this summer and in a couple of years time they're even better than Glen was at his peak, we'd all be kicking ourselves.

Hypothetical statement though debs. They may become world beaters or they may not. We don't know so can't comment. Though going by what I've see, the potential we have sold on or are on loan (Ibe, Kelly, Wisdom, Alberto, Robinson, Spearing, Shelvey, Adam Morgan, Babbel, Ngog), don't seem to be doing any better than they did here. That list is longer than I care or can remember too

I'm not sure how much you think our young lads are on or how much proven players demand when they change clubs.

The likes of Can and Markovic are probably on about £30k, Manquillo maybe £20k, that's 3 players who can improve for less than (a god awful for 2 seasons) Glen Johnson.

Can improve into proven. I'm saying let's not keep wasting money on potential and put a few proven in there. I can say Mkhitaryan or Hummels can and could do this and that (and probably would because they are proven). And to reiterate, I've never said I don't want to give young potential a chance. I am saying we need to buy proven and supplement with potential. Not buy potential and supplement with potential like we have done for the majority of it all. You can check my figures in my other post for what I think wage could be.

I know you don't mean we should buy past it players but that example is why our owners won't buy proven quality players.  You might get a couple of good seasons out of them, win nothing despite them costing a fortune, then you can't get rid of them and have to pay them even more to see their contract out.

But chances are when you buy proven quality, you will get a good return. I'm not say we 'will'. They may turn out real duffers, that's very true. But hear is my point; we've tried potential upon potential upon potential for season after season and it's not worked out that well at all debs. Studge and Couts apart and I have reservations over Couts, it's not been that profitable.

They've said it enough times over the years, I can't see them changing their minds, even though it's obvious to us.

Agreed.

I just think it's time for change in our transfer policy. I think most of us do to be fari

People need to F**k off thinking we're only going for "youngsters who we can sell at a profit later on" (although that was the benchmark for some of Rafa's signings - as long as we got a profit on them, they were a good transfer. Now it doesn't work that way? And in Rafa's day it was always "net spend" when people questioned the hundreds of millions he threw away on sh*t, for Brendan though it's "he's spent 100 mill on sh*t, forget the 80 million we got back in transfers in the summer)

Lambert 32.
Lallana 26.
Lovren 25.
Balotelli 24.

These are not kids. And if we make a profit on any of them I'd be amazed.

We have gone out and bought both potential and proven and on both sides there's been very few successes.

I thought it was painfully obvious Rush was talking about proven quality to be honest. 

Perhaps.

But as I said, Johnson was supposedly proven quality and has been sh*t. Same with Robbie Keane, Stewart Downing, Dejan Lovren and Mario Balotelli. Close to 100 million on proven quality who are actually overrated sh*t.

We have gone out and bought both potential and proven and on both sides there's been very few successes.

Spot on mate. Doesn't matter about potential or proven, every year any progress we make on the pitch is ruined the following summer when our rivals make quality signings and we make sh*te ones. Happened under Rafa, happened under Kenny and it's happening now under Brendan.

I never said that it is ok to keep paying him whilst he is sh*te. We should have gotten rid two or three seasons ago. But that's another topic.
I have never said we shouldn't give potential a chance. I said we should consider getting proven quality and supplement with youthful promise.
Hypothetical statement though debs. They may become world beaters or they may not. We don't know so can't comment. Though going by what I've see, the potential we have sold on or are on loan (Ibe, Kelly, Wisdom, Alberto, Robinson, Spearing, Shelvey, Adam Morgan, Babbel, Ngog), don't seem to be doing any better than they did here. That list is longer than I care or can remember too
Can improve into proven. I'm saying let's not keep wasting money on potential and put a few proven in there. I can say Mkhitaryan or Hummels can and could do this and that (and probably would because they are proven). And to reiterate, I've never said I don't want to give young potential a chance. I am saying we need to buy proven and supplement with potential. Not buy potential and supplement with potential like we have done for the majority of it all. You can check my figures in my other post for what I think wage could be.
But chances are when you buy proven quality, you will get a good return. I'm not say we 'will'. They may turn out real duffers, that's very true. But hear is my point; we've tried potential upon potential upon potential for season after season and it's not worked out that well at all debs. Studge and Couts apart and I have reservations over Couts, it's not been that profitable.
Agreed.

I just think it's time for change in our transfer policy. I think most of us do to be fari

As Billy has said, we have bought proven it's the quality we're lacking but we won't pay for the type of quality that the fans want or that the team needs.  We just have to hope that those players we have got become that quality but it won't happen overnight.

Proven quality. That's all I'm saying, and yes, I did think it was obvious I was on about spending the extra for proven quality

Lovren is not proven quality - he is a mid table defender who had a decent season with Soton
Balotelli is not proven quality - he is doing exactly what he did at City; slump, slink, and walk about
Lambert is not proven quality - at all, 13 goals and 15 goals for Soton is not proven quality
Lallana is bordering on proven quality - cost £26m and I think he's a solid buy
Markovic is not proven quality - not sure what he is right now
Moreno is not proven quality - and has been very hit and miss so far
Manquillo is not proven quality - and has been very hit and miss as well
Origi is not proven quality - but seems to be genuine potential
Can is not proven quality - of them all I think he's still settling in what with injuries and all that
Couts was not proven quality  - but it has paid off more or less, he can be a bit off on times
Studge was not proven quality - but, apart from injuries, he is
Allen was not proven quality - and probably won't be for what we need
Borini was not proven quality - much as I love his work rate and ethic
Alberto was not proven quality - though never had much of a chance
Assaidi was not proven quality - see above
Aspas was not proven quality - and again never really go the chance. Well, not much

There's probably a few more

Robbie Keane was proven quality - but never got the chance to prove that

With all respect DLS, my post was not about buying youngsters for profit, though that is an option for FSG no matter what we think.

All I said is that I think we need to start buying proven players and by proven I mean quality.

when we bought players back in the day we had scouts and the manager to give the final nod we bought on the experience of football men.
Now we can tell you how many sheets of toilet paper they use after a sh*t but we cant tell you if they will fit into the system or improve the team.

when we bought players back in the day we had scouts and the manager to give the final nod we bought on the experience of football men.
Now we can tell you how many sheets of toilet paper they use after a sh*t but we cant tell you if they will fit into the system or improve the team.

Even in this day and age with global ground to cover, surely common sense says it has to come down to the scouts and then manager on what they deem to be a good enough player for the team

F***ing businessmen thinking they know it all. Pisses me off

Even in this day and age with global ground to cover, surely common sense says it has to come down to the scouts and then manager on what they deem to be a good enough player for the team

F***ing businessmen thinking they know it all. Pisses me off

I wonder if they put far too much faith in stats and reports and not enough on actually watching players and I don't mean DVD's

Proven or potential either way have to be good enough and signings for a while have been a joke from signing Mark Kennedy aftrr having a good game v arse and Phil Babb having a good world cup see diouf also. Our scouting as been awful and the young academy players brought from abroad not one made it . Who watches these players we spend millions on or do we or go on hearsay or their name .

Essentially yo pay for what you get.

We seem to shop at Tesco's, overpriced average products.

Others at John Lewis, higher price, but you're guaranteed quality.

Aldi shoppers, lower price, good quality, but hard to find exactly what you want.

And then there are the designer shoppers.

You can fit most clubs into each category.

It all comes down to money. As I said, Tesco's you think you're getting a good deal, but you are paying over the odds.

We need to change our buying strategy and philosophy.

We either go up market, or go budget. Staying the same is a false economy.

I see we are interested in signing a player called Neto! Ironically he is not a striker, but a 'keeper 

Proven quality. That's all I'm saying, and yes, I did think it was obvious I was on about spending the extra for proven quality

And we have. Over the years we've spent a bomb on proven quality who clearly aren't up to the task. Our biggest problem is buying what is perceived as proven quality such as Johnson, Keane, Balotelli, Downing etc when they're actually not proven quality but rather players half decent players who shine in sh*t teams. (though I think there's plenty on here who can vouch that I never wanted any of those four )

And we have. Over the years we've spent a bomb on proven quality who clearly aren't up to the task. Our biggest problem is buying what is perceived as proven quality such as Johnson, Keane, Balotelli, Downing etc when they're actually not proven quality but rather players half decent players who shine in sh*t teams. (though I think there's plenty on here who can vouch that I never wanted any of those four )

I wholeheartedly agree!

there are certain types of player every team needs We had Kuyt City have Milner not my favourite player but he does his job.We had Craig Johnson, Steve McMahon Houghton etc not all world beaters but put them into a team environment and they thrive.
Alan Kennedy scored two winning goals in the European Cup he was never world class or even international class,Alan Hansen couldn't get a game for Scotland so if you used the methods we are using today I doubt we would ever have signed any of them.
Your not buying a player you are building a team its a jigsaw puzzle without picture to refer to.
We have players now but not a team the difference last year is we had the very best players in Luis and a very very good  partner in Daniel. Athletico won the league last year ahead of Madrid and Barca on a fraction of their budgets so its not all about money although we have all been brainwashed into thinking it is

Interesting read people, enjoyed that

Personally I think there is a few ways to look at where you are as a football club, how you are viewed and what you perceive yourself to be

Now I love this football club, along with my family it's my main concern in this life but I honestly think we have been unfortunate at when the money flooded into the game, when the premier league was formed in '92 we had got to the stage with our team at that point where we had been so successful but we had grown old together and the amount of rebuilding that squad needed then was a big job, so at that point where we were the biggest club in the land and had the biggest pulling power one of the highest spend we could have afforded a couple of years of rebuilding and it probably wouldn't have affected is too much.. However Utd got fairly lucky with that group of players who came through that year from their youth system at a time in English football when you could give them time to blood in the first team, they certainly 100% couldn't do it now, as is being proved.. Then the money flooded in, they were wining things, they grew in Europe and the rest is history.. While the f**k ups we made in that period we probably haven't really recovered from.
We were the biggest pull in the country, players were happy to come here and achieve all they wanted in the game from a domestic point of view, we didn't really have the global foreign influx we now have as European football was banned at that point, once it came back and the CL was starting to become what it is now we had fallen behind Utd, and the London based clubs as a place the best of the foreign talent saw as a place to go.

That for me is unlucky, had the '92 football world come in say '88 then we would be different to what we are now..
Now we are a massive club still but we are a club who have attempted to build and restart what 6 times or so in that period when we have financially been behind the rest, Utd in a squad sense are facing what we did in '92 but are a financial power house as they have ridden the football boom over the last 20 odd years and can pay their way through the issues more than we could or can.

In terms of players I get what Rush is saying and I agree to a certain extent, this squad is currently taking a lot of stick but can you imagine this base with 3-4 world class finished articles on top of what we have? A couple of Suarez abilities added? They are out there, other 'big' clubs add them, I'm afraid our mentality and ownership structures have not allowed us to think that's even possible and by proxy have convinced the majority of us that we shouldn't expect it.. That it's not really sensible business or we can't compete with those clubs in those markets..

Well you know what? If you don't compete with those clubs in those markets you won't f**king compete with them on the field

You know what I feel we need to get away from? We need to stop being that middle club in terms of transfers, we are seen as a great stepping stone nowadays for talent to get to one of those glamour clubs [as much as that hurts to admit] or we are somewhere the next level come to and think they have made it and peaked and it doesn't get any better than this.. Well the work shouldn't stop when you get here, it should only just begin.. I've seen Johnson mentioned in this thread, yeah right, perfect example.. It doesn't get better for him than this, he didn't get much of a sniff at Chelsea and was fu**ed off to Portsmouth and then gets a go here.. f**king hell I've made it, well in Glen, top money great club.. I'm happy with this, I don't want to go 'higher' again as I might not play...
Welcome comfort, welcome taking his foot off 5%.. Welcome us not pushing on again

Repeat that 50 times with the likes of Downing, Adam,Skrtel, Lovren and keep going

For those players they have made it being here, the hunger slightly goes

Tell you what give me 30 Suarez's who still have hunger to push on.. But rather than one at a time give me 5.. It may cost but we may actually have a chance to get back to that top table and stay there because one or two of them may still move but three may stay and we can continue to attract the next five.

Because I can guatentee that buying 16 Markovic's won't have us with a permanent brass name plate on that top table, but 4 Suarez's would

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

We used to have a reserve team full of potential when did we start filling the first team squad with wannabeeeeee's

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

Come on skip

Judge the man on what he does and has done but some things simply look like digs mate

Wasn't Shanks what 45 when he took the job having managed at Grimsby and Huddersfield and never in Div 1?

Couldn't the same be said of promoting from with of Bob or Joe who had never managed for themselves. They may have known the club but were not experienced managers and only potential was seen in them to continue.

Don't like the man fine, want him gone or not, fine.. But at least dig the man out for things that are relevant

Potential or Proven ?

This is Liverpool Football Club.



This thread could equally apply to the Manager.

Oooohh

EDIT: You know, if I think about it, I am much more concerned with what I can't see, the faces I don't see. What goes in the transfer committee board room, or, to sum up why I am so frustrated; do we even have one!?

I can't help shake the feeling that the Gaffer, whilst making a few odd decisions lately, is trying to manage us whilst trying to stop others interfering at the same time

Interesting read people, enjoyed that

Personally I think there is a few ways to look at where you are as a football club, how you are viewed and what you perceive yourself to be

Now I love this football club, along with my family it's my main concern in this life but I honestly think we have been unfortunate at when the money flooded into the game, when the premier league was formed in '92 we had got to the stage with our team at that point where we had been so successful but we had grown old together and the amount of rebuilding that squad needed then was a big job, so at that point where we were the biggest club in the land and had the biggest pulling power one of the highest spend we could have afforded a couple of years of rebuilding and it probably wouldn't have affected is too much.. However Utd got fairly lucky with that group of players who came through that year from their youth system at a time in English football when you could give them time to blood in the first team, they certainly 100% couldn't do it now, as is being proved.. Then the money flooded in, they were wining things, they grew in Europe and the rest is history.. While the f**k ups we made in that period we probably haven't really recovered from.
We were the biggest pull in the country, players were happy to come here and achieve all they wanted in the game from a domestic point of view, we didn't really have the global foreign influx we now have as European football was banned at that point, once it came back and the CL was starting to become what it is now we had fallen behind Utd, and the London based clubs as a place the best of the foreign talent saw as a place to go.

That for me is unlucky, had the '92 football world come in say '88 then we would be different to what we are now..
Now we are a massive club still but we are a club who have attempted to build and restart what 6 times or so in that period when we have financially been behind the rest, Utd in a squad sense are facing what we did in '92 but are a financial power house as they have ridden the football boom over the last 20 odd years and can pay their way through the issues more than we could or can.

In terms of players I get what Rush is saying and I agree to a certain extent, this squad is currently taking a lot of stick but can you imagine this base with 3-4 world class finished articles on top of what we have? A couple of Suarez abilities added? They are out there, other 'big' clubs add them, I'm afraid our mentality and ownership structures have not allowed us to think that's even possible and by proxy have convinced the majority of us that we shouldn't expect it.. That it's not really sensible business or we can't compete with those clubs in those markets..

Well you know what? If you don't compete with those clubs in those markets you won't f**king compete with them on the field

You know what I feel we need to get away from? We need to stop being that middle club in terms of transfers, we are seen as a great stepping stone nowadays for talent to get to one of those glamour clubs [as much as that hurts to admit] or we are somewhere the next level come to and think they have made it and peaked and it doesn't get any better than this.. Well the work shouldn't stop when you get here, it should only just begin.. I've seen Johnson mentioned in this thread, yeah right, perfect example.. It doesn't get better for him than this, he didn't get much of a sniff at Chelsea and was fu**ed off to Portsmouth and then gets a go here.. f**king hell I've made it, well in Glen, top money great club.. I'm happy with this, I don't want to go 'higher' again as I might not play...
Welcome comfort, welcome taking his foot off 5%.. Welcome us not pushing on again

Repeat that 50 times with the likes of Downing, Adam,Skrtel, Lovren and keep going

For those players they have made it being here, the hunger slightly goes

Tell you what give me 30 Suarez's who still have hunger to push on.. But rather than one at a time give me 5.. It may cost but we may actually have a chance to get back to that top table and stay there because one or two of them may still move but three may stay and we can continue to attract the next five.

Because I can guatentee that buying 16 Markovic's won't have us with a permanent brass name plate on that top table, but 4 Suarez's would

I don't think there's a fan out there who wouldn't agree with this Jon, every single one of us over the last 20 odd years wanted us to replace quality with quality, like we used to do but we have been brow beaten into believing it's not possible anymore. 

Our current owners have never been shy about how they would run the Club, they never gave us false promises like the last lot and as you say we've accepted that that's how it's going to be.

We're not happy about it, we can see the effect it has on the players who remain, we discuss on here often enough that it doesn't work from a footballing pov, that it's a never ending cycle of rebuilding and transition rather than keeping, building, strengthening and eventually winning.  Unfortunately for us and fortunately for them we are a captive audience, we aren't going to change which Club we support, we can vote with our wallets by stopping going to the match but there's always somebody else to take your seat and this lot would actually prefer the day trippers to the locals as they spend more when they attend.

The only way I see this policy, of buying potential rather than quality, changing is when our revenues will allow it.  When the refurbishment of Anfield is done, with a new naming partner and the new commercial team starts to bring in better sponsorship deals but to get the maximum possible, we need to be doing the business on the pitch consistantly and there we go back to square one again.

We all know what's needed, the players and Brendan know what's needed but pulling our hair out, despairing that it'll never happen, moping, whinging, whining and bickering amongst ourselves is not helping anyone.

Come on skip

Judge the man on what he does and has done but some things simply look like digs mate

Wasn't Shanks what 45 when he took the job having managed at Grimsby and Huddersfield and never in Div 1?

Couldn't the same be said of promoting from with of Bob or Joe who had never managed for themselves. They may have known the club but were not experienced managers and only potential was seen in them to continue.

Don't like the man fine, want him gone or not, fine.. But at least dig the man out for things that are relevant

Oooohh

EDIT: You know, if I think about it, I am much more concerned with what I can't see, the faces I don't see. What goes in the transfer committee board room, or, to sum up why I am so frustrated; do we even have one!?

I can't help shake the feeling that the Gaffer, whilst making a few odd decisions lately, is trying to manage us whilst trying to stop others interfering at the same time

Two wins in  seven games.... and millions spent.
That kind of money isnt going to come along again.

Rookie stuff.

FSG's decision.

Two wins in  seven games.... and millions spent.
That kind of money isnt going to come along again.

Rookie stuff.

FSG's decision.

You're missing my point
I'll leave you too it lad

You're missing my point
I'll leave you too it lad

I'm not PD  .... I can assure you I'm not.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

I'm not PD  .... I can assure you I'm not.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

When you put it like that, it's pretty hard to argue against

I'm not PD  .... I can assure you I'm not.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

That's fine but your post a few back didn't state that, that's criticising him for something you believe that has substance to it.

Your half filled bollocks dig about him being potential holds no argument as we have hired managers with potential over proven history throughout the last 60 years of the club


You know what, slag him off, I have no issue with that as he is there in that position and currently we are struggling and the points you make stack up to him..

However one line digs with no substance is a waste of every bodies time

That's fine but your post a few back didn't state that, that's criticising him for something you believe that has substance to it.

Your half filled bollocks dig about him being potential holds no argument as we have hired managers with potential over proven history throughout the last 60 years of the club


You know what, slag him off, I have no issue with that as he is there in that position and currently we are struggling and the points you make stack up to him..

However one line digs with no substance is a waste of every bodies time

What a constructive post PD.


At least I dont hide.

When you put it like that, it's pretty hard to argue against

Thanks Rush .   

What a constructive post PD.


At least I dont hide.

You do though.. You hide behind snidey comments like the one I first quoted which has no substance at all

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

This isn't hiding and is fine, great something people can debate.

The sly dig about him being potential is rubbish as we have had many many managers with no prior pedigree at the highest level before they came here including our two most successful managers..
It doesn't matter he had no pedigree prior to coming here as it didn't with Bill or employing from within with Bob or Joe.. Just because it worked and was great with them doesn't mean that you forget those facts.. Brendan may well get through this and make us succesful ( I don't think he will as I'm not sure many could in the modern game and the ownership we run under) but to put a post which wasn't constructive either (using your words) is wasting every bodies time reading it as it simply looks petty.

The whole situation is a shambles.

Two and a half years ..... millions spent ...... and we haven't a defence or an attack at the moment.

Wake up time

This great.. No problem, it's honest and has substance


Unproductive snidey comments really add nothing, it doesn't matter where he came from, how old he is, who he's f**king, what his teeth look like..
History has proven with our club we have brought managers from nowhere to be great successes.. Judge him on his actions not where he came from

He has got questions to answer and problems to solve, asking questions on those are better than comments with no substance and you're better than that skip, I've read your stuff

If he doesn't solve them he will get sacked and to be honest I don't care if he is or not as all I want is a successful club..

Part of the reason we buy younger players is it slightly circumvents the fair play rules.  Quite a few stories in the last few months saying we skated close to the edge of those rules as it was. 

You do though.. You hide behind snidey comments like the one I first quoted which has no substance at all

This isn't hiding and is fine, great something people can debate.

He has got questions to answer and problems to solve, asking questions on those are better than comments with no substance and you're better than that skip, I've read your stuff

If he doesn't solve them he will get sacked and to be honest I don't care if he is or not as all I want is a successful club..

OK PD  you are quite entitled to cherry pick what I say and your own interpretation of what you think is a comment ... and what you call a "sly dig".
I would call any such comment of mine cynical.  There is nothing "sly" about what I say.

Mick came out and asked if anyone wants to come out and debate BR ....... and my reservations have been known for a long time on the matter of the manager.

However your very last comment we both agree on.

At the end of the day all we want is best for the club.   
I just dont personally think what has happened, what is happening and the way things are going, is best for the club.

I have the right to say that ...   however I want to ......  and apportion blame where I see it to be.

 Finances permitting you buy whoever the manager wants

We can argue about this all day long.

For me, I wouldn't have bought Lambert, Lallana, Lovren or Markovic. I didn't agree with any of those signings. As for the other signings, (Manquillo, Moreno, Can, Origi and Balotelli) I was extremely pleased with as they are talented youngsters who have the ability to be brilliant in a few years time.

What we should have done during the summer transfer window was target these young talents but to also use the fact that we are back in the CL to buy a 2-3 established stars as well. With the £75m from Luis Suarez alone, we should have targeted players like Mehdi Benatia, Cesc Fabregas and Jackson Martinez for example (guaranteeing them first team football too). We should also have been back in for Yevhen Konoplyanka who would have cost half the amount of Markovic and would have impacted on the team from the off.

Come on skip

Judge the man on what he does and has done but some things simply look like digs mate

Wasn't Shanks what 45 when he took the job having managed at Grimsby and Huddersfield and never in Div 1?

Couldn't the same be said of promoting from with of Bob or Joe who had never managed for themselves. They may have known the club but were not experienced managers and only potential was seen in them to continue.

Don't like the man fine, want him gone or not, fine.. But at least dig the man out for things that are relevant

they all had solid footballing backgrounds as players.
Why I am and always have been on the fence with Brendan is his relationship to FSG seems to be too close for comfort and too "corporate"...too on message.
I don't mind his teeth or his new woman that's his private business.
what makes me doubt him is I think he isn't his own man when it comes to dealing with FSG.
I think is definitely aware of the clubs transfer policy yet he goes along with it. He must therefore think he can take players with little or no proven ability at the very top level and make them into CL quality players....not a chance never going to happen.
No manager could take this group of players and challenge for the league and top four would be a big ask.
That's why I will not ask for his head because changing the manager within the restraints he willingly works under is going to change nothing.
We struck gold with Luis and an average side suddenly looked like a title challenging side but we all know that the cracks were being papered over by the brilliance of our two front men.
Whilst Brendan could turn out to be a top manager under the restrictions of FSG he will never reach his potential the troubling thing is Brendan is complicit in the club stagnating .
Spending more money in January under the same rules as the summer will be wasted money.

Perhaps.

But as I said, Johnson was supposedly proven quality and has been sh*t. Same with Robbie Keane, Stewart Downing, Dejan Lovren and Mario Balotelli. Close to 100 million on proven quality who are actually overrated sh*t.

"Perhaps" F**k all billy... Its quite clear that you understand what type of players Rush was speaking about - quality.

Why you, and others like you, are getting hung up on the word "proven" rather than accepting that it's the "quality" part which is important [even tho you all acknowledge it in your posts] - F**k knows. A need to be right maybe?

Look at it another way - under FSG, during Brendan's reign, we buy players who are inexpensive and easier paid than their predecessors - players who, at worst won't lose a lot should they (invariably) fail but will make a lot when they are sold, should they, as individuals, succeed.

These easily paid players tend to be easier paid because they aren't F***ing proven quality.

Now... we can accept that it's actually happening now or we can bury our heads in the sand, try to cloud the issue and ignore it...

The fact is - we spent a lot of money on players who wouldn't command big wages - the reason they couldn't command big wages is... They aren't F***ing proven quality.

Go back in time all you want, seek exceptions to prove what you want, ignore all the quality which exists elsewhere when "proving" your point, pretend you miss the point, if it helps ... it won't change the here and now.

Without paying the going rate for proven QUALITY you won't F***ing attract it. 

Without paying the going rate for proven QUALITY you won't F***ing attract it. 

Pretty much sums it all up

they all had solid footballing backgrounds as players.
Why I am and always have been on the fence with Brendan is his relationship to FSG seems to be too close for comfort and too "corporate"...too on message.
I don't mind his teeth or his new woman that's his private business.
what makes me doubt him is I think he isn't his own man when it comes to dealing with FSG.
I think is definitely aware of the clubs transfer policy yet he goes along with it. He must therefore think he can take players with little or no proven ability at the very top level and make them into CL quality players....not a chance never going to happen.
No manager could take this group of players and challenge for the league and top four would be a big ask.
That's why I will not ask for his head because changing the manager within the restraints he willingly works under is going to change nothing.
We struck gold with Luis and an average side suddenly looked like a title challenging side but we all know that the cracks were being papered over by the brilliance of our two front men.
Whilst Brendan could turn out to be a top manager under the restrictions of FSG he will never reach his potential the troubling thing is Brendan is complicit in the club stagnating .
Spending more money in January under the same rules as the summer will be wasted money.

The stuff in bold completely sums up my view. There are two REALLY strange quotes in the BR thread too.
He comes over as a yes-man, a careerist manager who'll never have a problem getting a job because he sings from the same sheet as the owner-vampires all round Britain. I don't think he'll be as arsed about winning silverware tho.

The idea that he got the job because he produced a 200pg pretty "dossier" sums the whole thing up.

Should he go if we finish 5th?

I said yes, but now I think that it's a tough call to make because primarily, us fans have no idea who is pulling what strings behind the curtain.

I say a manager will stand and fall by the players he brings into a football team. But who is picking the players? If it is just the Gaffer picking these transfer targets, then I see no reason to keep him here if we miss out on 4th. But what if he's picking all the stellar ones and it's an interfering committee that's to blame for the weaker signings? Another manager comes in and we're back to square one with the interfering committee

These days we can't even make an educated guess as to what is really going wrong. FSG know, and the Gaffer knows, so if people are pulling in the wrong direction, it's up to the Gaffer to do what's right for the club.

I'm not sure Brendan is as corporate or on message as you think. Stevie in his recent press briefing was clearly allowed to question the transfer policy with Brendan's approval..........

I'm not sure Brendan is as corporate or on message as you think. Stevie in his recent press briefing was clearly allowed to question the transfer policy with Brendan's approval..........

Have we got a ripple of discontent?
Could there conceivably be anything linking his perceived unease with LFC policy and his recent mutterings about playing elsewhere?
Ripples indeed.

there are certain types of player every team needs We had Kuyt City have Milner not my favourite player but he does his job.We had Craig Johnson, Steve McMahon Houghton etc not all world beaters but put them into a team environment and they thrive.
Alan Kennedy scored two winning goals in the European Cup he was never world class or even international class,Alan Hansen couldn't get a game for Scotland so if you used the methods we are using today I doubt we would ever have signed any of them.
Your not buying a player you are building a team its a jigsaw puzzle without picture to refer to.
We have players now but not a team the difference last year is we had the very best players in Luis and a very very good  partner in Daniel. Athletico won the league last year ahead of Madrid and Barca on a fraction of their budgets so its not all about money although we have all been brainwashed into thinking it is

Weren't they as a direct of Sir Bob's ethos of when he had to go into the transfer market he'd buy 3 players. One would be a class player, another would be a proven player and then he'd buy one who had the potential to mix in and up his level of play due to surrounding team mates? I don't ever recall him buying a 'dud'. Sir Bob played to a system and bought players accordingly.

A big part of Brendan's problem is that he's bought too many players with no thought as to what system to adopt or which system works best. All of which stems from not identifying a suitable and 'proven' replacement for Suarez.   

Should he go if we finish 5th?

I said yes, but now I think that it's a tough call to make because primarily, us fans have no idea who is pulling what strings behind the curtain.

I say a manager will stand and fall by the players he brings into a football team. But who is picking the players? If it is just the Gaffer picking these transfer targets, then I see no reason to keep him here if we miss out on 4th. But what if he's picking all the stellar ones and it's an interfering committee that's to blame for the weaker signings? Another manager comes in and we're back to square one with the interfering committee

These days we can't even make an educated guess as to what is really going wrong. FSG know, and the Gaffer knows, so if people are pulling in the wrong direction, it's up to the Gaffer to do what's right for the club.

I'm completely unenthralled by Rodgers but I couldn't demand he was sacked for finishing 5th. Because ultimately, on current measures we are the 4th or 5th best team in England. Maybe Wanc Utd will slip up. Maybe Arsehole FC under Wenger will. But we're WAY behind Chelsea and Manc City. Thats my view on recent years performances, wage bills and net spends etc.

And I dread to think who they'd bring in to replace Rodgers. Malky Mackay? Some other "up and coming star" (read cheap waged nobody who never won a thing, and will follow orders like a toy poodle).

"Perhaps" F**k all billy... Its quite clear that you understand what type of players Rush was speaking about - quality.

Why you, and others like you, are getting hung up on the word "proven" rather than accepting that it's the "quality" part which is important [even tho you all acknowledge it in your posts] - F**k knows. A need to be right maybe?

Look at it another way - under FSG, during Brendan's reign, we buy players who are inexpensive and easier paid than their predecessors - players who, at worst won't lose a lot should they (invariably) fail but will make a lot when they are sold, should they, as individuals, succeed.

These easily paid players tend to be easier paid because they aren't F***ing proven quality.

Now... we can accept that it's actually happening now or we can bury our heads in the sand, try to cloud the issue and ignore it...

The fact is - we spent a lot of money on players who wouldn't command big wages - the reason they couldn't command big wages is... They aren't F***ing proven quality.

Go back in time all you want, seek exceptions to prove what you want, ignore all the quality which exists elsewhere when "proving" your point, pretend you miss the point, if it helps ... it won't change the here and now.

Without paying the going rate for proven QUALITY you won't F***ing attract it. 

It's nothing to do with being right. I don't really give a toss whether I'm right or not on any subject. (though I do usually end up spot on)

But the fact of the matter is we have bought what is perceived to be proven quality when they are in fact sh*t. I've already listed a handful of names but just so people can keep up, Johnson, Downing, Keane, Balotelli. Wasted millions on proven quality.

I also question "inexpensive players". Maybe wage wise but transfer fees hardly. Over 200 million in just over 2 years (excluding loans) is hardly being a skinflint. We've wasted money, both on "proven" and "potential". Would you consider a two-time Premiership winner and a man with over 100 international caps proven quality because Kolo Toure can lay claim to that and he's been F***ing sh*t for us. Would you consider a three time Serie A and one time Premiership player proven quality because that's Mario Balotelli's resume and he's been F***ing sh*t for us. Chelsea spent a British record of 50 mill on a proven quality forward like Shevchenko and Torres. Both were sh*t for Chelsea.

So I take it proven quality is only proven quality when it works like it has with Fabregas?

We've bought proven quality both on the cheap and for a fair whack, we've still ended up with the short straw. It doesn't matter if you're proven quality or not, if you're not up to the job or it just doesn't work out for you at a certain club then the club that has spent the "going rate for proven QUALITY" is still gonna be fu**ed. (whether they attract it or not)

But the fact of the matter is we have bought what is perceived to be proven quality when they are in fact sh*t. I've already listed a handful of names but just so people can keep up, Johnson, Downing, Keane, Balotelli. Wasted millions on proven quality.

Here's the difference, and it is  subjective call I'll admit, but in my estimation, whilst those players are good players, Keane never got a chance, Johnson 'was' quality for the first 3 seasons, so no worries there, Balotelli? A headache at the best of times and if we had the pick of a City player whilst he was there, i doubt he'd be first choice. But Downing, proven quality? Nowhere near. You can't say Downing was ever quality; not for us and not for Boro (was it?)

So I take it proven quality is only proven quality when it works like it has with Fabregas?

Yes. What other proven quality is there? I'm not trying to be clever, I'm being genuine. I'm sorry but it's painfully obvious to me which players are proven quality and which are potential or just decent signings.

Cold hard truth though, is that all the proven quality are either playing for other Prem teams (the usual suspects) or Barca and Madrid.

But this is not going to devolve into a 'what is proven quality' debate. My point was that FSG don't go anywhere near it, and only seem to go for potential quality.

Here's the difference, and it is  subjective call I'll admit, but in my estimation, whilst those players are good players, Keane never got a chance, Johnson 'was' quality for the first 3 seasons, so no worries there, Balotelli? A headache at the best of times and if we had the pick of a City player whilst he was there, i doubt he'd be first choice. But Downing, proven quality? Nowhere near. You can't say Downing was ever quality; not for us and not for Boro (was it?)

We will have to agree to disagree on Johnson, he has been sh*t since the day he signed as far as I'm concerned. (I'm not just saying this either, I've always felt it). Keane was given plenty of chances but wasn't up to it for Liverpool, some players just don't fit certain clubs. Keane was one of them for us, Shevchenko/Torres/Kezman/Crespo/Mutu for Chelsea. Balotelli, while I think he always been sh*t, is perceived to be quality. Downing, again while I think he's always been sh*t, is perceived to be quality. He'd had a decent year at Villa and has been a revelation for West Ham since we sold him.

And after Downing's early games for us, some were raving about him. I remember him being hailed for his performance against Arsenal in particular.

This is my point about perceived proven quality. Some get all the hype when they don't deserve it and we buy them. I'd put Lukaku in that category right now. He's somebody I would of loved for us to get in the summer. But this year, I wouldn't go near him - after his big money move. Everton fans would of felt they were getting proven quality and had paid for it but he's been a massive disappointment for them this term.

Yes. What other proven quality is there? I'm not trying to be clever, I'm being genuine. I'm sorry but it's painfully obvious to me which players are proven quality and which are potential or just decent signings.

Cold hard truth though, is that all the proven quality are either playing for other Prem teams (the usual suspects) or Barca and Madrid.

But this is not going to devolve into a 'what is proven quality' debate. My point was that FSG don't go anywhere near it, and only seem to go for potential quality.

What other proven quality is there out there? Well truth be told, none. As I've said, some players just don't work out at certain clubs. Look at Ronaldo, one of the world's greatest players but for years at United he was considered a flop and it looked like we got lucky by not buying him when Houllier had the chance. Even if he did come here, who's to say he'd be the player he is now? I've already listed plenty at Chelsea. The uproar that was on here when we missed out on getting Villas-Boas as manager and look how he has faired as a Premier League manager.

But this is not going to devolve into a 'what is proven quality' debate. My point was that FSG don't go anywhere near it, and only seem to go for potential quality.

I'll disagree they only go with potential. I think if anything they're more guilty of going for "flavour of the month" type players who've just had a decent six months to a year.

But what happens when you just keep shoving out "potential" and signing more "potential" and then doing it all over again the following summer?

But what happens when you just keep shoving out "potential" and signing more "potential" and then doing it all over again the following summer?

At what point do FSG say enough is enough we need to review this process as its clearly not working

At what point do FSG say enough is enough we need to review this process as its clearly not working

If this season doesn't improve then you'd expect it to be as soon as. Would it happen? I doubt it.

At what point do FSG say enough is enough we need to review this process as its clearly not working

I think the only one they'd be worried about from this summers window would be Lovren as all the others are still young with time to improve, just how they like them.  Lambert and Toure were stop gaps that didn't cost much.

Unlike us they are prepared to give them time and I don't mean a few games, I'm talking at least a season, more like two and in some cases possibly even 3.

They don't see things like we do, they're businessmen.

Should he go if we finish 5th?

No.

I think the only one they'd be worried about from this summers window would be Lovren as all the others are still young with time to improve, just how they like them.  Lambert and Toure were stop gaps that didn't cost much.

Unlike us they are prepared to give them time and I don't mean a few games, I'm talking at least a season, more like two and in some cases possibly even 3.

They don't see things like we do, they're businessmen.

what about Brendan I am sure he wants to progress in his career but if all he becomes is a nursery for potential profit making players he is going to eventually get pissed of too.

Liverpool isn't Ajax to develop talents, yes it is good to have some young prospects for the future, but what we need is proven players, we don't have the time to develop young players, we need trophies and UCL football, we could have young players but our main core should be build on proven and the best case scenario is that they are both , see Sterling, Sturridge.

I think the only one they'd be worried about from this summers window would be Lovren as all the others are still young with time to improve, just how they like them.  Lambert and Toure were stop gaps that didn't cost much.

Unlike us they are prepared to give them time and I don't mean a few games, I'm talking at least a season, more like two and in some cases possibly even 3.

They don't see things like we do, they're businessmen.

They're business men with a business model that isn't working on any level. It's not providing short term returns nor long term sustainability. How many of these potentials have broken through? There has been at least seven potentials brought in during FSG's time of an age that now one would expect to see them breaking through yet they've neither been sold for a profit nor broken through to the first team. They're sitting in obscurity somewhere. The business model isn't working and FSG for the sake of their own profits, never mind the club's success, need to revaluate it if this season ends in failure.

They're business men with a business model that isn't working on any level. It's not providing short term returns nor long term sustainability. How many of these potentials have broken through? There has been at least seven potentials brought in during FSG's time of an age that now one would expect to see them breaking through yet they've neither been sold for a profit nor broken through to the first team. They're sitting in obscurity somewhere. The business model isn't working and FSG for the sake of their own profits, never mind the club's success, need to revaluate it if this season ends in failure.

Like I said they're prepared to give them time, if Brendan wants them they'll stay even, if it takes 2 or 3 seasons to make it into the 1st team, so be it.  We haven't made a profit because none of Brendans buys have been sold but we had offers for 2 of them and both would have shown a profit if they'd gone.

The obscurity they've gone to is called getting game time, which they badly need and they wouldn't have got if they were here.  There are reasons to do this, prep them for the 1st team if they show an improvement, they'll come into the squad to fight for their place.  If they aren't good enough to keep and we get offers they'll be sold but I doubt we'll lose much, if anything, on any of them.

It's too early for them to think the plan isn't working even if the fans think otherwise, like I said they're businessmen, they don't think like we do.

They're business men with a business model that isn't working on any level. It's not providing short term returns nor long term sustainability. How many of these potentials have broken through? There has been at least seven potentials brought in during FSG's time of an age that now one would expect to see them breaking through yet they've neither been sold for a profit nor broken through to the first team. They're sitting in obscurity somewhere. The business model isn't working and FSG for the sake of their own profits, never mind the club's success, need to revaluate it if this season ends in failure.

Sterling worth ~£20 mil plus Couthino £15-£20mil Sturridge £25mil .A conservative profit of over £40 mil just there.

Sterling worth ~£20 mil plus Couthino £15-£20mil Sturridge £25mil .A conservative profit of over £40 mil just there.

Knock it off, Walt, you know what I mean. Just from the league last year we made £98.9 million. Last year PSG made £42.6 just for being Quarter finalists in the Champions league. That's £141 million in one year right there, just for being successful. That's a lot more than the re-sale of any player so any business model not revolving around year on year success in both these competitions isn't worth the paper its written on and for all the world, ours does not seem based on this.

Knock it off, Walt, you know what I mean. Just from the league last year we made £98.9 million. Last year PSG made £42.6 just for being Quarter finalists in the Champions league. That's £141 million in one year right there, just for being successful. That's a lot more than the re-sale of any player so any business model not revolving around year on year success in both these competitions isn't worth the paper its written on and for all the world, ours does not seem based on this.

this .

Knock it off, Walt, you know what I mean. Just from the league last year we made £98.9 million. Last year PSG made £42.6 just for being Quarter finalists in the Champions league. That's £141 million in one year right there, just for being successful. That's a lot more than the re-sale of any player so any business model not revolving around year on year success in both these competitions isn't worth the paper its written on and for all the world, ours does not seem based on this.

But it is based on both.  Just because those 3 young players were instant hits doesn't mean they all have to be and Brendan, nor the owners would expect them to.  Of course not all of them will make it but the odd ones will and that's a risk they're prepared to take.

They won't be reassessing their plan for at least another 2 to 3 years, they may never reassess, which is great because it means it's worked.   

Proven quality. That's all I'm saying, and yes, I did think it was obvious I was on about spending the extra for proven quality

Lovren is not proven quality - he is a mid table defender who had a decent season with Soton
Balotelli is not proven quality - he is doing exactly what he did at City; slump, slink, and walk about
Lambert is not proven quality - at all, 13 goals and 15 goals for Soton is not proven quality
Lallana is bordering on proven quality - cost £26m and I think he's a solid buy
Markovic is not proven quality - not sure what he is right now
Moreno is not proven quality - and has been very hit and miss so far
Manquillo is not proven quality - and has been very hit and miss as well
Origi is not proven quality - but seems to be genuine potential
Can is not proven quality - of them all I think he's still settling in what with injuries and all that
Couts was not proven quality  - but it has paid off more or less, he can be a bit off on times
Studge was not proven quality - but, apart from injuries, he is
Allen was not proven quality - and probably won't be for what we need
Borini was not proven quality - much as I love his work rate and ethic
Alberto was not proven quality - though never had much of a chance
Assaidi was not proven quality - see above
Aspas was not proven quality - and again never really go the chance. Well, not much

There's probably a few more

Robbie Keane was proven quality - but never got the chance to prove that

With all respect DLS, my post was not about buying youngsters for profit, though that is an option for FSG no matter what we think.

All I said is that I think we need to start buying proven players and by proven I mean quality.

The main glaring issue is why are we not making our own quality? A lot of these players just paper over what a failure our youth system has become. If we had a prosperous youth system we could spend our money on proven quality!

A great youth system should be the foundations of a great club. At the moment, we are on shaky foundations. It's pathetic it really is.