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      The Transfer Committee Thread

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      srslfc
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #299: Oct 08, 2015 12:30:16 am
      I actually think we are a lot closer in our views than might be at first apparent mate. However I don't believe we have ever had a coherent transfer policy since Brendan came in. Transfers have (at least at first sight) seemed ill thought out, unplanned and based more on opportunistic buys rather than a forward thinking and planned policy.

      As we discussed the other day after 3 years under Brendan and £300million spend we still have an unbalanced squad, CB's bought when we needed midfield players because they became available, strikers bought as a "last option" etc etc.

      This in my opinion all comes under the transfer committee's remit (and that includes Brendan). The fact that chasms have opened up between Brendan and the committee has only exacerbated the situation.  If Brendan has indeed played favourites with players, to the detriment of Liverpool fc .... he deserved sacking for that alone.

      As you know it is one thing agreeing to a player coming in, it is another thing altogether choosing the player that is coming in, which is what I think some people are misunderstanding.

      As you know we differ on how we view the quality of the squad at the moment, but I think we can both agree that it hasn't been used as effectively as it might under Brendan.

      Similarly I believe that the transfer committee hasn't used the money we have spent as effectively as we might have or should have.

       

       

         


      I think the two biggest problems with our transfer system was the manager not buying into it fully and not having a DoF to head it up.

      Money has been wasted Saint I agree but you could blame the manager as much as, if not more than, the committee for that. Did we really have to spend £20M on another left sided CB in Lovren when we had spent £18M on one the previous summer?

      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #300: Oct 08, 2015 12:42:40 am
      The correlation of raw data to actual football skill does not exist, it can't at the moment and here's an absurd example to demonstrate:

      Person A: Runs all day and night for the club, doesn't really kick the ball much and when he does he doesn't look that skillful but when he gets into the penalty area he sits down on the ground by the goal-line. He gets the ball knocked off him into the goal every single match, he's a 1 in 1 goalscorer and covers more ground than any other player in the entire premier league.

      Person B: Hits the post and bar at almost every possible opportunity, he has less than a 1 in 2 goal ratio and has been accused and convicted by some arseholes who call themselves the FA of being a racist, he's been banned twice in his career for biting and has teeth that would make a beaver jealous.

      The statistical model will pick person A (Mo Farah) over person B (Luis Suarez).

      Oh dear, do you really think you're demonstrating something with this?
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #301: Oct 08, 2015 12:46:42 am
      The point I have been trying to make is that stats don't tell the full story, they don't even tell half the story and then it still depends wholly on who is trying to interpret those facts. Two people can often read the same stats and can come away with totally different conclusions. So then it depends on the level of skill of the person interpreting the facts. Going by the majority of transfers we have made in the past 5 years I would suggest that this is an area we can definitely improve upon.

      I don't think anyone has ever said that stats tell the whole story, and the point I and others tried to make is that, if you think your analyst is not doing a good job - because statistical analysis always at some point falls to the human element of the person interpreting the data - then you hire a better one, you don't just scrap the idea altogether because in the 1970's data was not readily available and made good signings without them or some reactionary rubbish like that.

      Beerbelly and others keep doing their best to make it look like you've got to pick sides between "stats men" and "football men", even incredibly ignoring the possibility of having football men who are actually good with numbers as well (you know, they do exist, to be a football fan does not imply being unable to do a course on data analysis). The need for extremism is so boring it just kills any intelligence in the debate.

      At the end of the day, if your team is not aligned in their aims then your results most likely will be unsatisfactory, as is possibly the case now (example: Firmino is, in my eyes, a very good player; but if he's signed for a manager who's unwilling to play him in his original position, he'll most likely not be a success despite his qualities).

      I've also pointed out that I think people grossly over-emphasize the idea of computers dictating transfers. People talk of the "Boston Red Sox Moneyball approach" without even knowing what that actually means. And they "demonstrate" that "correlation" between data and skill "does not exist" with an absolutely nonsense example about "the statistical model" (THE statistical model, because apparently there's only one way to interpret data and one model :D) and so on.
      s@int
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #302: Oct 08, 2015 12:56:54 am
      I think the two biggest problems with our transfer system was the manager not buying into it fully and not having a DoF to head it up.

      Money has been wasted Saint I agree but you could blame the manager as much as, if not more than, the committee for that. Did we really have to spend £20M on another left sided CB in Lovren when we had spent £18M on one the previous summer?



      It was Brendan that wanted a committee and not a D.O.F. so there must be some reason why he didn't "buy into it."

      I honestly blame Brendan more than the committee, because as the obvious "football man" on the committee he should have been the one developing and planning the building of the squad, explaining what we needed to grow as a team and why. If the committee then ignored him he should have taken the honourable route of resigning rather than threating to over one particular player.

      Maybe I am underestimating the role of the committee, but I would have thought that Brendan would be "the man with the plan" and the committee would be the ones trying to bring in the right players for Brendan to execute that plan.

      e.g. Brendan decides we need to strengthen our defence. The committee then decide on a player within our price range that is available and suggests that player to Brendan emphasising any relevant statistical and scouting information. Brendan then says whether that player will fit into his overall strategy for how we will be playing. Says YES OR NO. 

      Rather than that it seems they have been more of the lines of....

      TC "there's a young player at Porto who has good stats"

      Brendan ... "what position does he play ?"

      TC ... "we aren't quite sure but he is within our price range"

      Brendan " I really need a wingback"

      TC... " he can probably play there"

      Brendan "shouldn't we find out first"

      TC .. he's a really good price and has great stats, we may miss him if we don't act now"

      Brendan... "Well I'm not so sure"

      TC ... "great, well that's settled then we'll sign him tomorrow"

      Brendan..." Right"

      :)     
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #303: Oct 08, 2015 12:59:22 am
      Oh dear, do you really think you're demonstrating something with this?

      Yes I'm demonstrating quite clearly that football statistics, when looked at in isolation and without the benefit of context, can indeed be incredibly misleading. I'm demonstrating that the active participant, no matter what his statistics might suggest could be contributing absolutely nothing to the positive statistics he is being credited for and therefore they become almost irrelevant and most definitely a misrepresentation of the facts. (Downing, Carroll, Adam etc, etc)

      I've absolutely no doubt that you'd prefer to be pedantic than admit the obvious point above and you'd rather act like an arrogant smart arse with an over inflated self worth in terms of football knowledge and pretend you don't see this point even when demonstrated in the absolute simplest terms possible because so many people seem to be struggling to even grasp that.

      It wouldn't be so bad if I was talking to someone who had no knowledge about the game but you work in it.

      So get a grip of yourself and stop acting like a pr**k.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #304: Oct 08, 2015 01:01:19 am
      I honestly blame Brendan more than the committee, because as the obvious "football man" on the committee he should have been the one developing and planning the building of the squad, explaining what we needed to grow as a team and why. If the committee then ignored him he should have taken the honourable route of resigning rather than threating to over one particular player.

      Maybe I am underestimating the role of the committee, but I would have thought that Brendan would be "the man with the plan" and the committee would be the ones trying to bring in the right players for Brendan to execute that plan.

      I tend to agree here and said so at the end of the transfer window. I honestly think all players we signed this summer are very good players, but the holes in the squad and its lack of balance (no wingers, no left footed players, low on options in some positions, etc) left me feeling a bit underwhelmed. So you can sign as many good players as you want, but if there is not a coherent plan then it might not take you very far anyway.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #305: Oct 08, 2015 01:08:22 am
      Yes I'm demonstrating quite clearly that football statistics, when looked at in isolation and without the benefit of context, can indeed be incredibly misleading.

      That is fairly obvious and hardly needs demonstration. What you sought to demonstrate, however, was that "the correlation of raw data to actual football skill does not exist", which is a totally different matter.

      I've absolutely no doubt that you'd prefer to be pedantic than admit the obvious point above and you'd rather act like an arrogant smart arse with an over inflated self worth in terms of football knowledge and pretend you don't see this point even when demonstrated in the absolute simplest terms possible because so many people seem to be struggling to even grasp that.

      It wouldn't be so bad if I was talking to someone who had no knowledge about the game but you work in it.

      So get a grip of yourself and stop acting like a pr**k.

      I don't know what you're on about. I've said time and time again for the need of the human element in this process; raw data is just numbers and facts, the way you interpret or model them, put them in context and understand the limits to their applicability is what is going to dictate how useful they actually are. For me pedantry is trying to "demonstrate" things with absurd examples when you're just out of your depth.

      You get all personal again Luke and I'm the one acting like a pr**k.
      s@int
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #306: Oct 08, 2015 01:08:28 am
      As Kopiteluke says Diego, no need mate. I can understand you having a go at Beerbelly as he at least as been "free" with his phrases, but the rest apart from Swab who came in like an avenging angel have had an enjoyable exchange of ideas.   

      Anyway I'm off.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #307: Oct 08, 2015 01:22:51 am
      That is fairly obvious and hardly needs demonstration. What you sought to demonstrate, however, was that "the correlation of raw data to actual football skill does not exist", which is a totally different matter.

      It clearly does need demonstration because people can't seem to grasp that weighting too heavily in the favour of statistical analysis produces terrible success rates in terms of transfers. Having no DoF ('good football man' 'head scout with his head screwed on' 'someone who knows what a real footballer looks like' call it what you like) leads to the dysfunctional mess that we have in place today. One that allows statistics to drive the purchase of one player and then allows the manager to choose another so we end up with 2 left sided CB replacing an absolute legend at the combined cost of £38m and still get the decision wrong of whom to start.

      I don't know what you're on about. I've said time and time again for the need of the human element in this process; raw data is just numbers and facts, the way you interpret or model them, put them in context and understand the limits to their applicability is what is going to dictate how useful they actually are. For me pedantry is trying to "demonstrate" things with absurd examples when you're just out of your depth.

      Out of my depth, in what way could I be out of my depth? Again arrogance and over importance on your perceived self worth and knowledge, it's extremely simple what we're discussing, it has applications outside of football it has applications in most businesses. The fact I'm having to reduce myself to the self proclaimed absurd demonstrations is because people are still struggling to ascertain the difference between what we do and what 'all major clubs around Europe do', it's absolutely ridiculous.

      You get all personal again Luke and I'm the one acting like a pr**k.

      Yes, me trying to get to the level where the misunderstanding becomes clear and we can tackle the issue that separates both sides of the debate without discussing 'The Daily Mail' or 'Oh you just want football men, don't you value statistics, what kind of neanderthal are you?' or any of the other completely non-contributory statements said recently in this debate.

      So yes excuse me for trying to get to the crux of the debate and perhaps change the views of some people I respect who I believe are on the wrong side of this matter. I'd rather do that than come in dick swinging thinking I'm some know it all knob head belittling statements that were clearly meant to help the discussion.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #308: Oct 08, 2015 01:29:47 am
      It clearly does need demonstration because people can't seem to grasp that weighting too heavily in the favour of statistical analysis produces terrible success rates in terms of transfers. Having no DoF ('good football man' 'head scout with his head screwed on' 'someone who knows what a real footballer looks like' call it what you like) leads to the dysfunctional mess that we have in place today. One that allows statistics to drive the purchase of one player and then allows the manager to choose another so we end up with 2 left sided CB replacing an absolute legend at the combined cost of £38m and still get the decision wrong of whom to start.

      The lack of a coherent plan (ie signing two players for the same position) hardly say much of the ability of numbers to evaluate talent really. But anyway, as I said, this (the fact that "football statistics, when looked at in isolation and without the benefit of context, can indeed be incredibly misleading") was not what you said you were going to demonstrate, but rather that "the correlation of raw data to actual football skill does not exist". I agree with the first point and think you're not in a position to demonstrate the second.

      Out of my depth, in what way could I be out of my depth? Again arrogance and over importance on your perceived self worth and knowledge, it's extremely simple what we're discussing, it has applications outside of football it has applications in most businesses. The fact I'm having to reduce myself to the self proclaimed absurd demonstrations is because people are still struggling to ascertain the difference between what we do and what 'all major clubs around Europe do', it's absolutely ridiculous.

      My perceive self worth and knowledge? I'd say it's actually the opposite. I'm not the only who believes to be able to demonstrate statistical correlation. I am interested in the subject, but I don't pretend to be an expert and I don't feel the need to make defining statements about everything.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #309: Oct 08, 2015 01:34:04 am
      Yes, me trying to get to the level where the misunderstanding becomes clear and we can tackle the issue that separates both sides of the debate without discussing 'The Daily Mail' or 'Oh you just want football men, don't you value statistics, what kind of neanderthal are you?' or any of the other completely non-contributory statements said recently in this debate.

      So yes excuse me for trying to get to the crux of the debate and perhaps change the views of some people I respect who I believe are on the wrong side of this matter. I'd rather do that than come in dick swinging thinking I'm some know it all knob head belittling statements that were clearly meant to help the discussion.

      Getting personal with me again is getting to the crux of the debate? Whatever Luke. You used to be able to debate things without getting low like this. I've refrained from discussing things with you directly recently to avoid that. It's the first time I've tried doing so in quite a long time and the result has been the same as the last - you bring personal stuff into a debate of ideas.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #310: Oct 08, 2015 01:40:26 am
      The fact I'm having to reduce myself to the self proclaimed absurd demonstrations is because people are still struggling to ascertain the difference between what we do and what 'all major clubs around Europe do', it's absolutely ridiculous.

      Anyway, getting to this particular point - I think there's a confusion between two things: one, that we supposedly give more voice to "stats men" over "football men"; and the other, that we don't have a coherent squad building plan. I don't think they're necessarily the same.

      You can be incoherent in the way you build your team with any kind of approach, be it statistical or not. The main problem being that we need a team that works well together, and if reports of "constant friction" are to be believed, it is probably the failure of the upper management not to have been able to set up a team that does so.

      Hopefully that will change when the new manager comes. Judging by some reports, it is said that Klopp tends to rely on the opinion of their recruiting men more than a person like Rodgers, who, in the tradition of English managers, probably thinks it should be his duty to oversee all recruitment.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #311: Oct 08, 2015 01:43:15 am
      The lack of a coherent plan (ie signing two players for the same position) hardly say much of the ability of numbers to evaluate talent really. But anyway, as I said, this (the fact that "football statistics, when looked at in isolation and without the benefit of context, can indeed be incredibly misleading") was not what you said you were going to demonstrate, but rather that ("the correlation of raw data to actual football skill does not exist"). I agree with the first point and think you're not in a position to demonstrate the second.

      The first directly demonstrates the second.

      If statistics could differentiate between skill and events it would choose Suarez who is clearly the more skillful player. It can't it chooses player A whom it believes is the better player and it is wrong, therefore at the most basic level it demonstrates that stastical analysis cannot yet differentiate between skill and basic co-incidence. It is 100% dependent on the human element to differentiate between what is 'skill' and what is not. In the same manner I would actually argue that a scout of Geoff Twentyman's standard would still be worth more than 1000's of statistical analysts because no matter what they can produce they can never have the confidence of a man who basically knows what he's looking at.

      This is not to say that statistics have no worth, of course they do, they can help narrow the search, but that (at the moment) should be the extent of their worth.

      My perceive self worth and knowledge? I'd say it's actually the opposite. I' to be able to demonstrate statistical correlation I'm no data analyst. I am interested in the subject, but I don't pretend to be an expert and I don't feel the need to make defining statements

      Statistical analysis is simple anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics could do it, that's in no way trying to belittle what you do or your worth but you come across as if there's some extra level of importance that should be placed on anyone that works within the game or works with statistics on a daily basis. The truth is that I would trust anyone on here that I respect above and beyond any statistical analyst when reviewing a player simply because of the low value statistics really have in representing true player skill.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #312: Oct 08, 2015 02:04:13 am
      The first directly demonstrates the second.

      If statistics could differentiate between skill and events it would choose Suarez who is clearly the more skillful player. It can't it chooses player A whom it believes is the better player and it is wrong, therefore at the most basic level it demonstrates that stastical analysis cannot yet differentiate between skill and basic co-incidence. It is 100% dependent on the human element to differentiate between what is 'skill' and what is not. In the same manner I would actually argue that a scout of Geoff Twentyman's standard would still be worth more than 1000's of statistical analysts because no matter what they can produce they can never have the confidence of a man who basically knows what he's looking at.

      This is not to say that statistics have no worth, of course they do, they can help narrow the search, but that (at the moment) should be the extent of their worth.

      Statistics don't choose anyone, they're just numbers! The person modelling them (attributing value to each number, to each piece of information he may gather, through many different possible approaches) is the one actually ultimately choosing things. "Traditional" scouts are most definitely very valuable, especially as football analytics is still in its infancy, but I'd argue that far more emphasis is given to failures of signings supposedly brought to the club based on a statistical approach than to our many failures that were signed on a more traditional way. It's not as if we've covered ourselves in glory in the transfer market during the 20 years or so before stats even became a major player either.

      Statistical analysis is simple anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics could do it, that's in no way trying to belittle what you do or your worth but you come across as if there's some extra level of importance that should be placed on anyone that works within the game or works with statistics on a daily basis. The truth is that I would trust anyone on here that I respect above and beyond any statistical analyst when reviewing a player simply because of the low value statistics really have in representing true player skill.

      You seem to think I'm a data analyst and that's why you seem to talk about my sense of "self importance"? If that's the case I should let you know that I do not currently work with football and I'm not involved in football analytics.

      Anyway, as for your claim that "statistical analysis is simple anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics could do it", I think you would be surprised with the amount of things you can do with numbers currently available to clubs. For example, data analysts these days don't simply look at the raw numbers we have available at websites such as Squawka or Whoscored, such as "conversion rate". Rather, they've detailed information about every event on a football pitch, and can add much more "qualifications" to each event. I've read about some "goal expectancy" models, for example. They can take into account the position on the field a shot is taken, the game state (if the team is behind in the score, if it's winning, etc), the location where the pass was made and many more details (those bloggers usually don't publicly say all they've put into the model because they don't want people copying them) in order to determine the goal expectancy of a particular play or a player, and in turn it gives you an idea of the said player has performed above what an average player would do under the same conditions or if instead it is performing at a higher level. It's not simply a matter of going to whatscored.com, seeing "number of tackles" and saying "hey that's a good defender", there are ways of adding far more context. That's a bit of a digression really, I just felt like talking about it.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #313: Oct 08, 2015 02:15:46 am
      Statistics don't choose anyone, they're just numbers! The person modelling them (attributing value to each number, to each piece of information he may gather, through many different possible approaches) is the one actually ultimately choosing things. "Traditional" scouts are most definitely very valuable, especially as football analytics is still in its infancy, but I'd argue that far more emphasis is given to failures of signings supposedly brought to the club based on a statistical approach than to our many failures that were signed on a more traditional way. It's not as if we've covered ourselves in glory in the transfer market during the 20 years or so before stats even became a major player either.

      You seem to think I'm a data analyst and that's why you seem to talk about my sense of "self importance"? If that's the case I should let you know that I do not currently work with football and I'm not involved in football analytics.

      Anyway, as for your claim that "statistical analysis is simple anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics could do it", I think you would be surprised with the amount of things you can do with numbers currently available to clubs. For example, data analysts these days don't simply look at the raw numbers we have available at websites such as Squawka or Whoscored, such as "conversion rate". Rather, they've detailed information about every event on a football pitch, and can add much more "qualifications" to each event. I've read about some "goal expectancy" models, for example. They can take into account the position on the field a shot is taken, the game state (if the team is behind in the score, if it's winning, etc), the location where the pass was made and many more details (those bloggers usually don't publicly say all they've put into the model because they don't want people copying them) in order to determine the goal expectancy of a particular play or a player, and in turn it gives you an idea of the said player has performed above what an average player would do under the same conditions or if instead it is performing at a higher level. It's not simply a matter of going to whatscored.com, seeing "number of tackles" and saying "hey that's a good defender", there are ways of adding far more context. That's a bit of a digression really, I just felt like talking about it.

      Again semantics and pedantry, you understood the point regarding choice. If a player is a 1 in 2 ratio striker or a 1 in 1 ratio the statistic on offer is giving only one option to choose (in isolation) and as you highlight it requires the human element to differentiate between the two in terms of skill value.

      As for all these wonderful models that currently exist, none of them can actually differentiate between what is skill, what is luck and what is co-incidence. Again the point at which statistics separate into meaningful data will always (currently) rely on the human element and why we do 'do things differently than all the top teams in Europe' because we have clearly bought players with far too much emphasis on statistics, the vision that FSG brought with them.

      Yes we all know that money-ball means finding value where others do not necessarily see it. Acquiring more talent than the outlay suggests but that was mostly constructed around a statistical approach in a game that is heavily reliant on reliable statistics.

      Football skill is an intangible asset that has no way to be interpreted without physically viewing the event, a computer can not say how much skill it required to control the ball, how much pressure was on the opponent when the ball came in at a difficult speed or at an unnatural angle. It can't interpret between beating a keeper who simply made a bad choice and one that is world class and made his best effort to try to save it. It can't interpret the view the goal-keeper had on the shot, it can't interpret what level of control the man had on the ball before he was tackled or if he presented an easy opportunity for the tackler.

      Football skill is not currently representable through a statistical approach.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #314: Oct 08, 2015 02:28:00 am
      Again semantics and pedantry, you understood the point regarding choice. If a player is a 1 in 2 ratio striker or a 1 in 1 ratio the statistic on offer is giving only one option to choose (in isolation) and as you highlight it requires the human element to differentiate between the two in terms of skill value.

      I just don't think the example you provide is relevant because no one says striker A is better than striker B based only on conversion rate. Based on the conversion rate, you'd surely be inclined to think that A is better than B, but I don't think anyone would need to do that as this is not the only data available. You say "the statistical model" would choose A over B, as if it was true for what is actually done by the clubs, while in fact "the" statistical model of your example is nothing but a crude comparison of raw data. Rather, you can add context into those conversion opportunities and get with a far better understanding about the player's performance.

      As for all these wonderful models that currently exist, none of them can actually differentiate between what is skill, what is luck and what is co-incidence. Again the point at which statistics separate into meaningful data will always (currently) rely on the human element and why we do 'do things differently than all the top teams in Europe' because we have clearly have bought player with far too much emphasis on statistics, the vision that FSG brought with them.

      Surely all statistical analysis comes with a caveat. Correlation doesn't imply causation, so you need to actually understand what is going on to be able to ascertain with indeed one set of data is actually relevant to determine a second set or not. This is true in football and everything else. Also, the larger the sample size, the less you're likely to have the influence of luck - that's why you see a lot of work being done to determine how a season's worth of data is likely to be repeatable over a larger time frame, that is, if you can take season figures like % of shots saved by a goalkeeper in the hope that this % will be sustained over a long period (apparently you can't, based on the little I've read, as this number tends to fluctuates heavily, so a manager shouldn't be advised to sign a GK based on that).

      I have discussed before your point that we give far too much emphasis on statistics, I'm not entirely sold on that and have given my reasons for it.

      Skill is an intangible asset that has no way to be interpreted without physically viewing the event, a computer can not say how much skill it required to control the ball, how much pressure was on the opponent when the ball came in at a difficult speed or at an unnatural angle. It can't interpret between beating a keeper who simply made a bad choice and one that is world class and made his best effort to try to save it. It can't interpret the view the goal-keeper had on the shot, it can't interpret what level of control the man had on the ball before he was tackled or if he presented an easy opportunity for the tackler.

      Skill is not currently representable through a statistical approach.

      Not in a definitive way, no. But if you have GPS data of all players movements on the field, for example, you could in fact determine how much space a player had to do a certain pass, a certain shot, and so on, and in turn add more context to it. Same goes for other possible applications we have possibly not even thought about - it appears to me you put too strict limits to the application of stats based on what is available to the public while I'd be inclined to believe that clubs have far more resources available to them then what we read on Opta Stats twitter feed. And this will certainly improve with time.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #315: Oct 08, 2015 02:28:58 am
      Statistics don't choose anyone, they're just numbers! The person modelling them (attributing value to each number, to each piece of information he may gather, through many different possible approaches) is the one actually ultimately choosing things. "Traditional" scouts are most definitely very valuable, especially as football analytics is still in its infancy, but I'd argue that far more emphasis is given to failures of signings supposedly brought to the club based on a statistical approach than to our many failures that were signed on a more traditional way. It's not as if we've covered ourselves in glory in the transfer market during the 20 years or so before stats even became a major player either.

      You seem to think I'm a data analyst and that's why you seem to talk about my sense of "self importance"? If that's the case I should let you know that I do not currently work with football and I'm not involved in football analytics.

      Anyway, as for your claim that "statistical analysis is simple anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics could do it", I think you would be surprised with the amount of things you can do with numbers currently available to clubs. For example, data analysts these days don't simply look at the raw numbers we have available at websites such as Squawka or Whoscored, such as "conversion rate". Rather, they've detailed information about every event on a football pitch, and can add much more "qualifications" to each event. I've read about some "goal expectancy" models, for example. They can take into account the position on the field a shot is taken, the game state (if the team is behind in the score, if it's winning, etc), the location where the pass was made and many more details (those bloggers usually don't publicly say all they've put into the model because they don't want people copying them) in order to determine the goal expectancy of a particular play or a player, and in turn it gives you an idea of the said player has performed above what an average player would do under the same conditions or if instead it is performing at a higher level. It's not simply a matter of going to whatscored.com, seeing "number of tackles" and saying "hey that's a good defender", there are ways of adding far more context. That's a bit of a digression really, I just felt like talking about it.

      The problem with this is the "Money" part of Money ball. I can tell you what a goal expectancy model says about Messi, and that's the point after all we have the money to beat the poorer teams but not the richer teams. I'm sure what's more is any flavour of statistical model will back up the fact we have players with poorer stats than richer teams.

      I mean there is no way too prove chess is an ultimately determined game so infinitely less for football. A player has a better chance of getting a shot away but equally the goal fires up the opposition because the players a complete tw*t or the ref is on the take..... The guy in the story is a shyster taking our money until he gets rumbled by a football man or woman. I may be a luddite but I'm not sexist

      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #316: Oct 08, 2015 02:32:59 am
      Not in a definitive way, no. But if you have GPS data of all players movements on the field, for example, you could in fact determine how much space a player had to do a certain pass, a certain shot, and so on, and in turn add more context to it. Same goes for other possible applications we have possibly not even thought about - it appears to me you put too strict limits to the application of stats based on what is available to the public while I'd be inclined to believe that clubs have far more resources available to them then what we read on Opta Stats twitter feed. And this will certainly improve with time.

      No, I just know that a programme can not currently be developed to interpret the difficulty of a unique event with so many variables, once someone invents it we'll know about it, all the top teams will have it and the person who creates it will be one incredibly rich individual/company.

      Anyway, I'm glad we finally agree that statistics can not represent skill, that was the point and why we should all hope for Zorc to come with Klopp because the human knowledge, for now, far out weighs the computer.

      Goodnight.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #317: Oct 08, 2015 02:33:09 am
      The problem with this is the "Money" part of Money ball. I can tell you what a goal expectancy model says about Messi, and that's the point after all we have the money to beat the poorer teams but not the richer teams. I'm sure what's more is any flavour of statistical model will back up the fact we have players with poorer stats than richer teams.

      I mean there is no way too prove chess is an ultimately determined game so infinitely less for football. A player has a better chance of getting a shot away but equally the goal fires up the opposition because the players a complete tw*t or the ref is on the take..... The guy in the story is a shyster taking our money until he gets rumbled by a football man or woman. I may be a luddite but I'm not sexist

      That's why I pointed out that the so called "Red Sox Moneyball approach" had a lot more to do with "Money" than with "Moneyball". The Red Sox have always had the 3rd or 2nd biggest payrolls in baseball when they won the World Series. Stats or any kind of traditional analysis can only get you so far... if it points you towards the better players but you can't afford them, then it doesn't make much of a difference ;D
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #318: Oct 08, 2015 02:41:50 am
      No, I just know that a programme can not currently be developed to interpret the difficulty of a unique event with so many variables, once someone invents it we'll know about it, all the top teams will have it and the person who creates it will be one incredibly rich individual/company.

      Anyway, I'm glad we finally agree that statistics can not represent skill, that was the point and why we should all hope for Zorc to come with Klopp because the human knowledge, for now, far out weighs the computer.

      Goodnight.

      Such an all-knowing, omnipotent program will never exist and I've never said any different. And instead of trying to demonstrate things with irrelevant examples, you can now see we actually agree on a lot of things which was evident from the start, for not even the most pro-stats person on here has said they are all encompassing and should have final say on all decisions - rather, the extremism came from the other side of the debate, with people trying to ridicule the value of statistical analysis. Anyway, our main disagreement currently resides in the so called emphasis given to stats you seem to believe was the main cause to our transfer market misfortunes. I'd rather say it is a lack of a coherent plan which is not the fault of any "statistical" or "traditional" approach but the failure of the upper management to build a team that works well together with the different kind of inputs each part brings to the table. Signing two left sided defenders for large sums of money doesn't strike me as something a statistical model is at fault for, but instead the inner workings of the squad planning and the decision making at the club.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #319: Oct 08, 2015 02:43:13 am
      As Kopiteluke says Diego, no need mate. I can understand you having a go at Beerbelly as he at least as been "free" with his phrases, but the rest apart from Swab who came in like an avenging angel have had an enjoyable exchange of ideas.   

      Anyway I'm off.

      Thanks S@int, you f**king arsehole.

      Here's a smiley>>> ;D

      Beerbelly
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #320: Oct 08, 2015 04:02:03 am
      Quote
      Beerbelly and others keep doing their best to make it look like you've got to pick sides between "stats men" and "football men"

      No Diego. Stop building those strawmen arguments.

      I said Edwards should have a redundancy package in light of scouts losing their jobs to a bloke who know's more about numbers than football and who has been a part of the set-up since Comolli. Our transfer success under these owners is average in bringing in the substantial quality this club has been calling out for. The human aspect, Rodgers has been removed. Now if Klopp sees fit and he wants to do away with Edwards too, could you blame him, I couldn't. I think it's fair to say this discretion should be left to Klopp to decide on whom and how to use it in the future. 

      I also said, that I personally prefer football men to stats men. You don't like that opinion, that's not my problem and if that makes me not worthy of taken seriously by you and a couple others, I simply couldn't give a hoot.

      Anyway, a long but good article, not from the Mail but the brilliant Guardian on the pros and cons of computer analysts in football:

      Why has "The Chosen One" had such a horror show since taking over as Manchester United manager last summer? From our armchairs, the diagnosis has been relatively straightforward: taking over from a legend is inevitably a fool's errand; anyone replacing Sir Alex Ferguson was doomed before a ball was kicked. Moyes inherited a patchy squad with too few players at the peak of their powers. Or, if you want to be snarky, you might query Moyes's credentials: he never won a major trophy as a manager at Preston North End and Everton and has now brought a smaller-club mentality to United, arguably the most famous football organisation on the planet.

      Moyes clearly has a different perspective on the crisis. While he is restricted to bringing in new players by two transfer "windows" – one over summer, the other during January – he can make changes to personnel behind the scenes whenever he likes. At the end of last year he overhauled United's back-room staff. The arrivals included Robbie Cooke, Everton's chief scout; Chelsea's European scout Mick Doherty, who also worked with Moyes at Everton; and John Murtough, formerly responsible for Everton's vaunted academy and latterly the Premier League's head of elite performance. His final "transfer" was James Smith, head of technical scouting at Everton.

      None of these appointments made headlines, but Moyes believes they could be crucial in unearthing the future stars of Manchester United – within the club and outside – and turning round his fortunes at Old Trafford.

      There has been a revolution in football – though it is one that even the most committed fans will only be dimly aware of. Clubs are becoming smarter, more efficient. We've probably all seen the graphics and statistics that pop up in newspapers and on shows such as Match of the Day: it began with counting corners and shots on goal, but recently the analysis has become more whizz-bang; not least speed profiling and heat maps, which plot a player's movement around the pitch. But this is just a fraction of the data that can be collected during a match. Opta, a sports statistics company, records around 1,500 "events" from every fixture.

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      All 20 clubs in the Premier League – and many in the lower divisions – now employ data analysts to make sense of this information. Manchester City has 11 of them. In 2012, Liverpool caused a stir by creating a new position, director of research, for Ian Graham, who has a PhD in theoretical physics. The analysts are involved in pre-match preparation and post-game debriefs; they help to identify transfer targets and devise strategies for nurturing young players through the ranks. These developments have inspired confusion and even suspicion from many supporters, summed up by a recent headline in the New Statesman: "How the spreadsheet-wielding geeks are taking over football."

      We can't be blamed for being perplexed. Take the match last month between Arsenal and Bayern Munich, which Bayern won 2-0. The following morning, the Guardian plucked out two statistics: Toni Kroos, the German midfielder, completed more passes than the entire Arsenal midfield; meanwhile, Arsenal's Mesut Özil covered 11.69km, the third-highest distance on the pitch. What the stats didn't say, but was blindingly obvious to anyone watching, was that Kroos was sensational and Özil had a stinker.

      These are simplistic examples, but they encapsulate a debate taking place at the highest levels of many football clubs. In one corner are the "quants" or quantitative analysts: they are admirers of the statistician and election-oracle Nate Silver; the Nobel prize-winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman; and especially Billy Beane, the star of Moneyball, Michael Lewis's 2003 book about the data revolution in baseball. They believe that a football match can be translated into numbers and – much as a hedge-fund trader does with the stock market – those figures can be crunched and scanned for patterns. They don't think intuition should be removed from the game but they have found that statistics are dispassionate in a way that humans never are.

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      As Beane, general manager of the Oakland A's, has said: "The idea that I [should] trust my eyes more than the stats, I don't buy that because I've seen magicians pull rabbits out of hats and I know that the rabbit's not in there."

      In the other corner are the traditionalists, which is to say the owners and managers of the overwhelming majority of professional football clubs. They are aware of Moneyball – at least the film starring Brad Pitt – but don't believe the lessons of a stop-start sport such as baseball can be applied to the fluid dynamics of a football match. Most managers once played the game themselves at a high level and it is this fact, they contend, that gives them a special insight into what happens on the pitch and which players they recruit. This approach is summed up by an anecdote about Harry Redknapp, reported in Wired magazine. When he was manager of Southampton, he turned to his analyst after a loss and said: "I'll tell you what, next week, why don't we get your computer to play against their computer and see who wins?"

      It turns out that Redknapp was not too wide of the mark: how long will it be before we look at football not just as a contest between 22 players or a clash between two managers, but as a battle between the respective brains trusts assembled on the two benches?

      A decent place to start the investigation is Everton FC. As Simon Kuper, the Financial Times columnist and co-author of Soccernomics has detailed, no club in the Premier League has so consistently overachieved during the past decade. Under Moyes, they finished eighth or higher every season from 2007 to 2013. They've managed this despite being more frugal with wages than all of their rivals and not splashing cash on big-name transfers. Instead they achieved success by developing brilliant home-grown talent – Wayne Rooney, Jack Rodwell and Ross Barkley among them – and melding these players with unheralded stalwarts such as Leighton Baines and Leon Osman, who just happen to be statistical outliers.

      Baines, in fact, is something of an emblem for the data revolutionaries. For years, he was a solid, dependable left-back with an anachronistic mop-top, a perennial understudy to the flashier Ashley Cole in the England team. The stats, however, told a different story: in 2012, Opta identified Baines as the player who created the most chances in all of Europe's top leagues. His crosses, which were 38% accurate, led to a goal-scoring opportunity every 21.6 minutes, figures that shamed better-known playmakers such as Manchester City's David Silva and Arsenal's Santi Cazorla. Before long, Baines was first choice for the national team and a transfer target for Manchester United (of course, though perhaps he was simply playing better and the data per se had nothing to do with it).

      With such an impressive record over the years, it's hardly surprising that Moyes wanted to recreate the structure at Manchester United. Everton, meanwhile, installed Wigan Athletic's Roberto Martínez as their new manager. Martínez had his own reputation for performing above expectations: Wigan had been favourites for relegation from the Premier League every year since they were promoted in 2005; the club consistently had the lowest turnover and attendances in the top flight; their training ground was a converted working-men's club. Somehow they survived – until last May anyway, though they had the consolation of defeating Manchester City to win the FA Cup.

      Much of Wigan's resilience was put down to their progressive, young manager. Martínez was known for being obsessive about tactics. The Numbers Game, a recent book that examines the "datafication" of football, noted that he installed a 60-inch pen-touch TV screen at his home and hooked it up with player-tracking software from the performance analysts Prozone. He would watch matches, especially defeats, up to 10 times in order to make sense of what had happened. His response was often unusual and creative: while most teams favour the standard 4-4-2 formation, Wigan under Martínez would shuffle between 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 or 4-2-3-1. In short, he seemed like the perfect fit for a forward-thinking club like Everton.

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      I meet Martínez at Finch Farm, Everton's training ground on the outskirts of Liverpool. The facility is typically described as "state of the art", but it is still a place where a tea lady will come round to offer you a cuppa and probably a biscuit if you ask politely, too. Martínez is flanked by two of his scouting team, Kevin Reeves and Steve Brown, and we all sit in Reeves's office. There's an iMac on the desk but it is devoid of personal effects and whiffs of fresh paint – it turns out the room used to belong to James Smith, until he moved to Manchester United, and Reeves is just settling in. Reeves was once the most expensive player in Britain – "the first £1.25 million man" back in 1980, he proudly notes – and he has followed Martínez from Wigan.

      They have just come in from training. How much data do they collect in preparation for matches? "Every step on a football pitch is measured now," says Martínez, in his unique Spanish-Lancastrian lilt. "We monitor each session with GPS and heart-rate profiles. From a physical point of view, the most significant stats are probably the number of sprints, the sprint distance and the amount of high-intensity efforts a player gets through. We look at these through the season and they give us a good indication of how fatigued a player is and the recovery he needs."

      At Everton, each player is tracked in terms of four "corners": technical, tactical, physical and psychological. Data is crucial for assessing the first three categories. On a very basic level, a company such as Opta or Prozone provides multi-camera footage of a player's actions during a match and coaches critique his performance: perhaps they would like him to play more short passes, or – a signature of Martínez's teams – retain possession more assiduously. Detailed feedback will start in some clubs from the under-nines upwards. "You've got so many facilities to look at an individual's performances and you can single out one aspect of his play and measure it – that's significant," he says. "That's unbelievable." Meanwhile, a pair of analysts will be preparing dossiers on the Everton first team's forthcoming fixtures: watching half a dozen of their opponent's previous matches and combining these findings with existing data from Prozone. On the recruitment side, Reeves and Brown liaise with 10 scouts across Europe, who work exclusively for Everton, and keep an eye on the ProScout7 database, which has profiles on almost 130,000 players in more than 130 countries.

      Martínez is just as bright and convivial as everyone tells you he is, but he can't hide his deep ambivalence towards, say, ball-retention percentages or the number of successful passes into the opposition's penalty box. Or, to put it another way: he thinks most statistics are useless. "There's a big danger of getting inundated with data and letting it affect your play," he says. "Remember: a player can have 10 shots and all of them are on target but he doesn't score a goal. Or he can have 10 shots and nine of them are off target, but then the last one goes in the top corner. So which stat do you prefer?"

      Martínez is not the first to make this point and, in one sense, he is making a distinction between "stats" and "metrics": statistics, on their own, are often meaningless, but through systematic analysis, they can become metrics, which might offer a more revealing measure of a player or a team's performance. Still, it is a surprise to hear Martínez taking this line. Aged 40, with a postgraduate diploma in business and marketing from Manchester University – attained while he was a player at Wigan – you might expect him to be a passionate advocate for analytics. The Numbers Game describes Martínez as a "hero" and its authors, Chris Anderson and David Sally, devote a chapter to his work as Wigan manager, which they approvingly call "Guerrilla Football".

      The Everton manager is especially scathing of using data to identify transfer targets – the Moneyball dream of unearthing players whose utility might not always be immediately obvious. There is the famous story of Arsène Wenger signing Mathieu Flamini (the first time) partly due to a statistic that showed he ran 14km a match. Or Liverpool, under their then-director of football Damien Comolli, who spent heavily in 2011 to acquire Jordan Henderson and Stewart Downing, ostensibly because their "final-third regain" percentages – how often they recovered possession in the opponent's penalty box – were so high.

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      Martínez, and his chief scouts Reeves and Brown, find the suggestion that they would buy a player because of their numbers pretty funny. "You need to see a player and fall in love with a player," says Martínez. "When you see a player, you'll watch his warm-up, the way he speaks to the referee, the way he speaks to other team-mates after missing a chance, the way he celebrates a goal, the way his team-mates react when he scores. Data might help you narrow the margin of error, but the decision is still a feeling. It's a gut instinct."

      It is the psychology of a player that Martínez believes is the most crucial aspect of whether a player flourishes or wanes. And it is here that statistics or metrics are most restricted and unreliable. Everton will always scan news reports on a prospective signing and speak to their contacts for character references – some clubs will trawl through a player's Twitter feed and Facebook page – but ultimately the final decision is always an informed gamble. How will a player respond to taking a penalty in the 93rd minute of a Merseyside derby in front of the Kop at Anfield? What happens when your new foreign superstar arrives and struggles to learn English and his wife wants to go home? "Football players are football players once a week," warns Martínez. "The rest of the time they are human beings and fathers and husbands – data doesn't give you that."

      While no one contends that the use of data in football will ever be flawless, it certainly continues to become more astute and ambitious. The father of the movement is wing commander Charles Reep, an accountant in the RAF, who codified his first match in March 1950. He would eventually detail and analyse 2,200 games until the mid-1990s, spending around 80 hours on a single match, sometimes writing on rolls of wallpaper. Another pioneer was Valeriy Lobanovskyi, celebrated coach of Dynamo Kyiv and the USSR from the 1970s through to 2002, who spotted the potential of computers to change football when processors were still the size of the team bus. Known for his fastidious match preparations and scientific scouting, he said: "A team that commits errors in no more than 15% to 18% of its actions is unbeatable."

      The work of Reep and Lobanovskyi inspired a man you might not expect: Sam Allardyce, now manager of West Ham United. As a player, Allardyce spent the 1983 season with the Tampa Bay Rowdies in Florida; he made only 11 appearances, but the team shared its training facilities with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers NFL squad and he was intrigued by their preparations and that sport's infatuation with statistics. When he became a manager in the early 1990s, he wondered if he might introduce a similar model, but first he had to wait for the technology to catch up with him.

      Opta was the creation of a group of management consultants; their first clients in 1996 for their football statistics were Sky Sports and – take a bow – the Observer. Soon they were joined in the market by Prozone, a company that began life as a purveyor of massage armchairs. "Those black chairs you see in motorway service stations that you put £1 in," says Paul Boanas, Prozone's senior account manager. Early interest in Prozone came from another unlikely innovator, Steve McLaren, then a coach at Derby County. He liked the chairs, but the players got bored sitting in them for 15 minutes after every training session. He asked: "Couldn't they watch videos of the game while they're doing it?"

      McLaren, who would move on to coach Manchester United and then manage England, and Allardyce, who by this time was manager of Bolton Wanderers, would become Prozone's earliest and most devoted customers. For Big Sam in particular, the new software was addictive: he hired a team of young sports-science graduates and used the video analysis to mould Bolton's style of play. They calculated that any team that ran further and faster than their opponents would win or draw 80% of their matches. Their players relentlessly practised throw-ins, corners and free-kicks – targeting "pomos" or positions of maximum opportunity – and scored around half their goals, far above the league average, from these set-pieces. Allardyce stitched together a team of misfits, old-timers and foreign mercenaries, led by Gary Speed. When he arrived on a free transfer in 2004, Speed was 35, but his stats – 12km a game, a pass-completion average of above 80% – suggested he could still be useful. He became a talisman for Bolton for the next four seasons.

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      Big Sam's Bolton defied logic: they finished in the top eight of the Premier League every season between 2003 and 2007, and twice qualified for the Uefa Cup. But "pomos" did not enter the lexicon of the data revolution and many of his ideas now seem outdated.

      Allardyce remains committed to metrics, but his greatest contribution to the movement might just be the people he inspired. Bolton alumni now head the analytics departments of the most ambitious clubs in world football: Ed Sulley is head of performance analysis at Manchester City, while Gavin Fleig is City's head of technical scouting; Dave Fallows is head of recruitment at Liverpool. These men could be just as influential in shaping the future of their clubs as the managers, Manuel Pellegrini and Brendan Rodgers.

      There is a clear shift of power taking place at some clubs, and the use of data analytics is at the heart of it. At a time when the average tenure of a Premier League manager is just over one year – seven have already been sacked this season – the idea of entrusting all elements of player recruitment and long-term strategy to the manager is anachronistic. That certainly seems to have been the conclusion of the owners at Manchester City and Liverpool, as well as a club such as West Bromwich Albion, which shares power between the manager and a director of football, or sporting and technical director as they now call the position.

      "The perfect model in the club's eyes is to have everything set up and just drop in the manager and he's only allowed to bring two members of staff with him – that's what clubs would like," says Prozone's Boanas. "When the average lifespan of a manager is so short, they're going to think, 'Why would I plan for the future, when I might be gone in six months? Bollocks to that!' Instead of signing a young player, they're going to bring in a 31-year-old who's got a proven record, who they've worked with before. It's a very short-term view."

      Chris Anderson, author of The Numbers Game and a political scientist at New York's Cornell University agrees. "Incentives are incredibly important," he says. "The right incentives in my mind are the ones that keep this club healthy beyond next Saturday and perhaps beyond this month and even beyond this season. The place where a manager has a long tenure – like "The Chosen One" at Everton and Arsène Wenger at Arsenal – that person's incentives for themselves and for the club are reasonably closely aligned. But, the world we live in, sometimes that person isn't the manager."

      At a certain point, however, Allardyce's Bolton protégés, the men now driving the use of data analytics in British football, hit a wall: they were sports scientists, not mathematicians. This frustration was eloquently expressed by James Smith, then still at Everton, at the Elite Minds in Sports Analytics Summit held at Arsenal's Emirates stadium last November. It can be a lonely business being a quant in a football club, and the three-day seminar – with presentations by everyone from YouTube to the performance director of British Bobsleigh – fell somewhere between a show-and-tell and a self-help meeting.

      "At Everton at the moment we're still very much in a world of GCSE maths," Smith said. Cue an intake of breath in the room, and much frenzied tapping on laptops. "We look at averages, we look at benchmarking, we are in the world of bar charts. At the moment we are not doing more sophisticated regression analysis" – a statistical process used for predicting future outcomes – "but we know that is probably the way forward and that's where we hope to be before too long. But at the moment that tends to be the bigger clubs, the better-resourced clubs really."

      Smith contrasts football unfavourably with American sports, notably baseball and NFL. "Typically the guy dealing with the data in an English football club at the moment is a sports science graduate – which I am," he said. "But very often in America you might have somebody who went to Harvard and did a law degree then did a computer science masters at MIT. One of the issues in English football is we don't spend enough on staff: quality or quantity. And that's partly because we spend so much money on transfer fees, player salaries, agents' fees that there's not enough left. It's crazy."

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      There are, in fact, some whip-smart mathematicians working in English football, but, because of the traditional approach of most clubs, they are more likely to be employed by a betting company or a data generator such as Prozone. In an attempt to address this disparity, a fascinating initiative was launched by Manchester City's Gavin Fleig in August 2012. Called MCFC Analytics, the club released a large archive of data collected by Opta from the 2011/12 season. It was an "open source" call to arms for bloggers, PhD academics, anyone with an inquisitive mind and an interest in football who wanted to mess around with numbers.

      The inspiration for the experiment was baseball, specifically Bill James, a janitor whose after-hours statistical analysis revolutionised that sport. "I want our industry to find a Bill James," Fleig told Simon Kuper. "Bill James needs data, and whoever the Bill James of football is, he doesn't have data because it costs money."

      MCFC Analytics ended after a year and it's hard to determine if it was a success or not. The interest was certainly there – more than 1,500 users accessed the information in the first 36 hours – but there was criticism of the "basic" dataset that was released. Dr Howard Hamilton, chief executive of an Atlanta-based consultancy firm Soccermetrics Research, who holds a PhD in aeronautics and astronautics from Stanford University, described it in a blog as "woefully inadequate".

      "It wasn't our deepest dataset by any means, but it was relatively deep ," says John Coulson, head of professional football services at Opta. Nevertheless, Coulson can't see the experiment being repeated in the near future: "It was a one-off thing: 'Here's something to have a go at, get your teeth stuck in.' But it's not sustainable for us as a business to release all of that data every year."

      Football clubs are intensely secretive about the specifics of their use of data, especially where they believe they might have a competitive advantage. So I ask Marcus du Sautoy, professor of mathematics at Oxford University and keen Arsenal fan, what impact a greater numerical literacy could have on the game. "Football is much more of a game of chess than people realise," he replies. "It isn't random what each team does from one game to the next. There are patterns. And the strength of mathematics is to change an activity into numbers and to spot patterns and predict things into the future. That's essentially what the hedge-fund guys are doing."

      Du Sautoy believes we should look at the football pitch as a network, with channels connecting the 11 players – "It's like a mini-internet!" he exclaims. A successful team – Barcelona are the perfect example – has a special ability for keeping these connections open, but there's no reason why all teams could not analyse the dynamics in a more theoretical way. Du Sautoy also thinks that coaches would benefit from a greater willingness to think outside the box, so to speak. He uses the example of a free kick: why does the defending team always line up with a wall in front of the kicker? Perhaps that is the most effective way of blocking the ball, but they could test the hypothesis more methodically.

      "Football is incredibly conservative," says du Sautoy. "Having people who come from a different mindset could actually give a team like Arsenal or Liverpool a real edge." Then, at least half-seriously, he ventures: "If Wenger wants a mathematician on the bench at Arsenal, I'd be very happy to come along."

      It is easy to become carried away with the possibilities of data analytics. At the Elite Minds in Sports Analytics Summit, another speaker was Brian Prestidge, head of analytic development at Bolton Wanderers. He revealed that, since their goalkeeper had started studying the stats on the opposing team's penalty taker, he was actually saving fewer penalties (just 9% in the last two seasons). "We took away the human element, the player's instinct," said Prestidge. "But that's not to say there are no advantages in analysis."

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      If data is to have a greater influence in how football teams are run, it is likely to be at the instigation of the club owners – such as Liverpool's John W Henry, who made his fortune on the stock market and whose other team is the Moneyball-inspired Boston Red Sox – rather than the managers. Players, too, might also demand it: at the Elite Minds summit, Ben Smith, head of development performance systems at Chelsea, explained that young players – such as Eden Hazard – had grown up with data and constant feedback and now expect it after every match and training session; this contrasted with the older generation who can often be more entrenched.

      Of course, a manager will never admit that a number-cruncher might do his job just as well – or, heretically, even better – than he can. "And if a manager is doing something sophisticated or analytical, he won't want to advertise that to the world," says Anderson. "It makes them look less good and it makes them look geeky, too. In this manly world of football, you don't want to be known as a pinhead. That's the worst of everything!"

      Anderson recently floated the idea that a Premier League club could reduce its squad from 25 players to 24, and use the savings to employ a handful of maths graduates, who would doubtless earn less in a year than some players are paid for a week. No one seriously expects any club to take up the suggestion. At Finch Farm, I ask Martínez if he is envious of Manchester City's 11 analysts, working behind the scenes to plot their next opponent's downfall.

      He shakes his head. "I don't start with 100 people and say, 'How are they going to help me win a football game?' Doesn't matter if you have 100 or 3,000 people. It can dilute the quality. We are in a position where we've got enough to do everything we want. I don't think we feel frustrated or we need to get more finances. No, I think we are very much efficient."

      Football is a game of passion, and part of every fan would die if the game were reduced to a soulless set of calculations. But equally, any club or manager that denies the power of data are placing themselves at an enormous disadvantage. In one sense, this could be a positive development: football has historically been dominated by the teams with the fattest wallets; in the age of analytics, clubs should be rewarded for innovating and there is a greater motivation for cash-strapped teams to lead the way. Brains can trump financial brawn. Though, it should be noted that right now Manchester City are leading the field in both categories.

      Sitting in the stands, fans will likely stay, at least partially, in the dark. When a substitute comes on and scores with his first touch, do you credit the genius of the manager or the calculations of his performance analysts? In the moment – particularly if you're a Manchester United fan – you'll probably be too ecstatic to care.


      http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/09/premier-league-football-clubs-computer-analysts-managers-data-winning

      After reading that - Give me a football man any day of the week over a boffin and a computer.  ;)

      « Last Edit: Oct 08, 2015 06:27:30 am by Beerbelly »
      PastorGeek
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      Re: The Transfer Committee Thread
      Reply #321: Oct 08, 2015 04:10:57 am
      How is this so-called transfer committee different than a director of football?

      On the continent most managers work with a DOF. Klopp didnt make any signings for dortmund he had a DOF. It seems like only in England there is Hysteria about a DOF at a premier league club.

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