Can't Score, Won't Score. Can't Defend, Won't Defend.

We've had a few threads about the defense and how easily we ship goals and how shaky we look at the back but at the other end things have started as they finished last season and even with the addition of attacking talent like Benteke, Firmino, Ings, Origi etc we still look like a side who can't score goals.

In the last 15 league games going back to Swansea away in March we have only scored more than one goal in two games, one was against a Newcastle side who were all but on their holidays and the other a QPR side who only won 8 games all season and who I think were already relegated.

In those 15 games we scored the grand total of 13 goals. That's right 13 goals in our last 15 league games. Just to give an idea we conceded 24 in those games while we were at it so a GD of -11.

If we bring it forward and just use the clean slate of this new season I'm not sure it looks any better, if anything it reads worse, as we have only scored 3 goals in 5 games which extrapolated to 15 games would be 9 in 15. In the same 5 league games we now have conceded 6 goals so a GD of -3.

It's all well and good setting a side up not to concede hitting on the counter but we aren't even doing that as we set up to leave our attackers isolated while we still can't keep goals out at the other end. We are always going to concede goals under Brendan, because that's what he does, so I don't know why we aren't setting a side up to be more progressive in attack and at least attempt to outscore our opponents as last season, and now this, has shown us that we have to score 2 goals almost every game to be in with a chance of some sort of result.

We had signs in the first couple of games that maybe we had imporved at the back and that we won't ship easy goals but in te West Ham game once one went in we always looked like conceding 2 or 3 and the same goes for yesterday.

Needing to score more than 2 a game because the defense is likely to concede is no recipe for success especially when we are setting up in a system that in 5 games now doesn't look to be anywhwere close to solving the problems we have in scoring at the other end.

What we have is a team that can't defend and a team that can't score goals and with the players we have that is unacceptable and the blame has to go to the coaching staff and ultimately the manager.

Indeed, and last season the answer to this conundrum was three at the back, 3-5-2.  This was tried with success last spring and then abandoned with undue haste on the back of injuries and poor results after a successful run.  we all know how breasts uppermost it all went after that.

Looking at the squad, the best players, their strengths, the problems we've had in terms of lack of width, pace, defensive solidity not to mention goals (or even chances created!), it stands out that the only rational response is a back 3 with wingbacks (Clyne and Moreno) and two strikers.

I can see it. Loads of us can, reading the posts.   Surely BR will try it (again) next?

We've got defenders who can defend but can't get a game in Sakho, or out of position in Gomez, or perhaps even worse, defenders who aren't playing but they get put on as wingers?! Seriously.WTF? Also, somewhat irrelevant but just saw that Ilori who's on loan at villa, hasn't even made their bench... Should be recalled from Villa instantly and at least put on our bench where Lovren shouldn't get a place at all.

As for our attacking players, well to be frank, we've plenty of quality in attack in my opinion, but out illustrious leader seems intent on using players as he sees fit, regardless of their best position. But then, it's nothing new. He attempted to turn Stuart Downing from a pacy winger into a LB.

One of the biggest problems in the Brendan Rodgers era is that if we concede one, we have a nasty of habit of conceding a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. It's like we completely sh*t ourselves once we concede.

One of the biggest problems in the Brendan Rodgers era is that if we concede one, we have a nasty of habit of conceding a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. It's like we completely sh*t ourselves once we concede.

Yep.

Add that to not being able to score more than 1 goal in just over 10% of our last 15 games makes it very hard to win football matches.

 Hasn't Gomez picked up a yellow in every game?.. that's not good...
What dya do? carry on playing him then lose him for what? 3 games? or replace him with Enrique..

Once Ings and Firmino went off yesterday Origi got the closest to Benteke because he played in his natural position.
They're both Belgian aren't they?.. FFS play them together, fellow countryman and all that..

Ings and Firmino played out on the wings when they are both central players .. No idea what that was all about...

As Jamie Carragher said at half time yesterday,"Man U won the treble with 4 Strikers and today they're playing with one, Fellani, who is a centre half"..crazy..
What did they do?.. brought on Ashley Young... every time he play against we can't handle him.. and every time they attacked it was  down his left side..

We don't have any Scottish players in the side anymore.... or Scousers for that matter....

The issue is that we lack goals in this team. Lallana, Coutinho, Milner don't score regularly.

this is our best team at the moment: Benteke, Coutinho, Firminho, Milner, Hendo, Can/Lucas, and the defense

Only Benteke is expected to score regularly. We need Sturridge back in the team and one of the AM/wingers should score more. BR should have signed a goal scoring midfielder like Mkhitaryan.

Early on in his best season here we also had the habit of scoring more than the opposition, so if they scored 2 we'd score 3.

We have now moved so far away from what was an attacking philosophy, I think largely because Rodgers was accused of having no defensive nous when it comes to his sides defending. I think he's tried to address this because he has come in for all sorts of criticism. The problem is, this hasn't worked either or at a stretch (this season) it's still in it's infantile-transitional process. But shipping 3 at home to WH and 3 away to the Skanks supplies ammunition to those who still say he is unable to set his team up to defend - and as of yet, they certainly look right.

Then, with all of the above said, he's compromised the fluency and attacking flair that eventually led many to condemn him after the 3-3 draw at Palace two years back, hell, he even got it for the 1-0 home defeat at Chelsea. So, with all this fluidity and movement and at times brilliance, we were still sh*te at the back. Mind you, we were pretty sh*te going forward last year too IIRC...

He now doesn't have the magic of Suarez to build an attack round, and Suarez also got the best out Sterling and Sturridge - he hasn't got that now. He's had the opportunity to replace, eventually up steps Christian Benteke who looks the complete opposite of movement a trickery. I know he wanted to changed the predictability in our play - to go long from time to time, instead of the patient triangle build-up play on the edge of the box that can lead to infuriating uneventful breakthroughs. But, after watching Benteke in a Red shirt now (as I hadn't seen much of him before), we've again become predictable without so much as looking creative. It baffles me. Benteke's game has changed the way we play and set-up and its for the worse! We need someone up there to play up front with this target man, if everyone sits behind him in midfield, as we've seen, we've got buckley's chance of getting the ball in the opponents half for a sustained period. Never mind carving out a goal scoring opportunity. At the moment it's 'knock it long to Benteke' who's got to either knock it on to nobody, or bring it down and play backwards. During this time, we're either robbed of possession or give it away. Our build-up play is non-existent, hence why we're barely carving anything out from anything we do remotely have when in possession. 

I think he's blundered with Benteke, I really do. I don't know if he was trying to replicate Drogba and Chelsea but it isn't working because our attacking midfielders aren't supporting Benteke like the Drog had at Chav City. They don't look like they know how to support him and get close enough to him which is why he needs to throw Ings up beside him and sacrifice someone from midfield, as Ings is a willing runner from a better starting position than what our midfielders have offered thus far.

The game is about scoring more goals than the opposition and I don't think we have enough goals in this team. Perhaps 10/15 from our defenders, 10/15 or so from our midfield which leaves our strikers who will perhaps bring in 30 between them (allowing Sturridge will only get half a season ?) . 50/55 goals possibly boosted by perhaps another 5 if Firmino if he hits the ground running and gets more than the 5 or 6 I was allowing.

We scored 52 last season, have lost our two top scorers and I just don't see the players we have signed making up the gap to the 70 or 80 goals you need for a title challenge or the 65 or so needed for top 4. 

Maybe our defence will be a little tighter ?
.

A while since I posted this. At the time I wondered if I was being a little too pessimistic, now I wonder if I was too much of an optimist

The thing I never expected at the time was that we wouldn't be creating enough chances.

Early on in his best season here we also had the habit of scoring more than the opposition, so if they scored 2 we'd score 3.

We have now moved so far away from what was an attacking philosophy, I think largely because Rodgers was accused of having no defensive nous when it comes to his sides defending. I think he's tried to address this because he has come in for all sorts of criticism. The problem is, this hasn't worked either or at a stretch (this season) it's still in it's infantile-transitional process. But shipping 3 at home to WH and 3 away to the Skanks supplies ammunition to those who still say he is unable to set his team up to defend - and as of yet, they certainly look right.

Then, with all of the above said, he's compromised the fluency and attacking flair that eventually led many to condemn him after the 3-3 draw at Palace two years back, hell, he even got it for the 1-0 home defeat at Chelsea. So, with all this fluidity and movement and at times brilliance, we were still sh*te at the back. Mind you, we were pretty sh*te going forward last year too IIRC...

He now doesn't have the magic of Suarez to build an attack round, and Suarez also got the best out Sterling and Sturridge - he hasn't got that now. He's had the opportunity to replace, eventually up steps Christian Benteke who looks the complete opposite of movement a trickery. I know he wanted to changed the predictability in our play - to go long from time to time, instead of the patient triangle build-up play on the edge of the box that can lead to infuriating uneventful breakthroughs. But, after watching Benteke in a Red shirt now (as I hadn't seen much of him before), we've again become predictable without so much as looking creative. It baffles me. Benteke's game has changed the way we play and set-up and its for the worse! We need someone up there to play up front with this target man, if everyone sits behind him in midfield, as we've seen, we've got buckley's chance of getting the ball in the opponents half for a sustained period. Never mind carving out a goal scoring opportunity. At the moment it's 'knock it long to Benteke' who's got to either knock it on to nobody, or bring it down and play backwards. During this time, we're either robbed of possession or give it away. Our build-up play is non-existent, hence why we're barely carving anything out from anything we do remotely have when in possession. 

I think he's blundered with Benteke, I really do. I don't know if he was trying to replicate Drogba and Chelsea but it isn't working because our attacking midfielders aren't supporting Benteke like the Drog had at Chav City. They don't look like they know how to support him and get close enough to him which is why he needs to throw Ings up beside him and sacrifice someone from midfield, as Ings is a willing runner from a better starting position than what our midfielders have offered thus far.

I don't think it is all down to Benteke mate, our lack of progression in midfield is equally to blame. We pass the ball sideways and backwards too much, then because we have too many players not comfortable making quick passes we invite pressure onto ourselves and end up losing the ball all too often.

When we had Gerrard and even Henderson at least we had players who could pass it long (rather than a hopeful punt) which enabled and encouraged our support players to get forward more.   

Indeed, and last season the answer to this conundrum was three at the back, 3-5-2.  This was tried with success last spring and then abandoned with undue haste on the back of injuries and poor results after a successful run.  we all know how breasts uppermost it all went after that.

Looking at the squad, the best players, their strengths, the problems we've had in terms of lack of width, pace, defensive solidity not to mention goals (or even chances created!), it stands out that the only rational response is a back 3 with wingbacks (Clyne and Moreno) and two strikers.

I can see it. Loads of us can, reading the posts.   Surely BR will try it (again) next?

But it wasn't dropped with undue haste, Brendan persisted with it for 4-5 games longer than he should have done because other teams finally Sussed out how to set up against us. However it isn't a bad shout to try it now and I was thinking only yesterday that it might be the way he goes again with things for the upcoming games. I think our issues run deeper than simply changing the formation though unfortunately.

Can't score, won't score? We need to get Ainsley Harriet on the bench.

I don't think it is all down to Benteke mate, our lack of progression in midfield is equally to blame. We pass the ball sideways and backwards too much, then because we have too many players not comfortable making quick passes we invite pressure onto ourselves and end up losing the ball all too often.

When we had Gerrard and even Henderson at least we had players who could pass it long (rather than a hopeful punt) which enabled and encouraged our support players to get forward more.

You're right, its not down to Benteke S@int. It's down to the manager who is using him as a lone target man - therefore our set-up is dictated by the use of a lone battering ram up front.

You're right, its not down to Benteke S@int. It's down to the manager who is using him as a lone target man - therefore our set-up is dictated by the use of a lone battering ram up front.

Yep and that's playing into the oppositions hands, give him a partner, a willing runner, some one who will help Benteke split the center back pairing of the opposition and make space and he'll get goals, I think Ings would be perfect to pair with Benteke at the minute until Strurride is fit as he's hardworking and will run his legs off.

Our passing also needs to be quicker and more incisive and more direct, I'm not talking lump it to the big man, I'm talking quick direct balls in behind into feet/space, the transition from defence to attack, were trying to be too patient with the ball, knocking it sideways/backwards being patient in our approach, giving the opposition time to regroup and get two basically marking Benteke out of the game.

Pace scares players, that's why I'd include Moreno, he may be a bit of a liability defensively but it makes teams more wary of throwing too many forward and getting caught on the break, plus he's got a left peg, which no offence to young Joe Gomez who's done alright, is pretty much a square peg in a round hole and is starting to be found out by the opposition.

Brendan needs to grow some balls and play a 4-4-2 diamond, or 3-5-2 and give Benteke a partner and inject some pace into the side and then we might even see some goals and results go our way.

My worry is that 1352 with Gomez and Clyne will turn into five at the back and no creative drive from the central three.

My worry is that 1352 with Gomez and Clyne will turn into five at the back and no creative drive from the central three.

Its a valid concern to have especially after watching how negative we are this season.

In my three I'd have Can to try and give that drive from the back three.

Can does drive forward but what does he do with it?

So far he doesn't run into space, pass, open up defences or shoot.

He still has a lot to demonstrate with his game intelligence - a lot of the time he will drive forward, stop, turn on the ball and pass it fifteen yards backwards again.

As far as i have seen so far his best bet is to develop as a centre-back. he definitely has some skills and is physically tough but is behind the likes of Henderson as a central midfielder - and he has plenty to learn himself.

Maybe he needs more games but I am worried he is turning into our version of Phil Jones - awkward to pigeonhole and generally good at some things but with flaws in his game which will prevent him from specialising.

On top of all that he needs to get far fitter.

According to Dan Kennett over the last 14 league games we've conceded an average of 1.71 goals per game and scored .86 in the same period.

The worst of Brendan's time here and the worst since Souness in 92/93 in any 14 games period.

My worry is that 1352 with Gomez and Clyne will turn into five at the back and no creative drive from the central three.

I think that's a danger, but we saw tonight v. Bordeaux that Moreno and Clyne (as opposed to Ibe, who did not defend) with Sakho, Can and Gomez central could make it work with a bit of practice and communication.  Sakho was a creative instigator for much of the game tonight.  He can see a pass! (So he should, you might say!).

I think that's a danger, but we saw tonight v. Bordeaux that Moreno and Clyne (as opposed to Ibe, who did not defend) with Sakho, Can and Gomez central could make it work with a bit of practice and communication.  Sakho was a creative instigator for much of the game tonight.  He can see a pass! (So he should, you might say!).

I think so many of us has said before... Sakho is probably our most talented CB on the team.  I hope to see much more of him.

Back to the original topic.  Our team is a bit of a disaster yes?  Liverpool needs to realize that spending 100 mil on 8 players may not be as good as spending 100 mil on 2 world class players.  We do not need bench warmers anymore.  We need players on the pitch that has that extra step.. that extra little bit of speed or that extra finish.  Our league is really competitive and unfortunately we are starting to be left behind by the pack leaders

I don't think it is all down to Benteke mate, our lack of progression in midfield is equally to blame. We pass the ball sideways and backwards too much, then because we have too many players not comfortable making quick passes we invite pressure onto ourselves and end up losing the ball all too often.

When we had Gerrard and even Henderson at least we had players who could pass it long (rather than a hopeful punt) which enabled and encouraged our support players to get forward more.

At the same time if they don't have movement ahead of them they have no option but to pass sideways and backwards. Benteke doesn't give you movement ahead of the midfield, that's not his game and playing two midfielders flanking him hardly helps matters either. I'm all for mixing up the way we play but mixing up the way we play should not have come at the expense of our primary way of playing and we should have signed a Benteke-type player as third choice and spent big on bringing in a pacey, mobile striker to play alongside Sturridge. At said this at the time when we were first linked with him and I've seen nothing so far to suggest I was wrong.

At the same time if they don't have movement ahead of them they have no option but to pass sideways and backwards. Benteke doesn't give you movement ahead of the midfield, that's not his game and playing two midfielders flanking him hardly helps matters either. I'm all for mixing up the way we play but mixing up the way we play should not have come at the expense of our primary way of playing and we should have signed a Benteke-type player as third choice and spent big on bringing in a pacey, mobile striker to play alongside Sturridge. At said this at the time when we were first linked with him and I've seen nothing so far to suggest I was wrong.

I agree to an extent mate. I have been neutral up to now on the signing of Benteke mainly because for me Brendan hasn't tried playing a more mobile striker alongside him. The return of Sturridge will I feel be the deciding factor as if he can form a decent partnership with Benteke we may have the best of both worlds. (or at least the best we can hope for without Suarez)

At the moment I tend to put the blame at Brendan's door rather than Benteke's, but the midfield needs to take some measure of responsibility as well, as this is not a new occurrence as we saw similar lack of support last season with Balotelli, with only Gerrard seemingly willing to try more adventurous passes.

A bit like buying a cat and complaining because it doesn't bark, if you want something that barks... buy a dog. 

I think things may become clearer over the next few weeks and the outcome may save or seal Brendan's fate.

I wasn't blaming Benteke, on the contrary, I think he's a decent player but one who would be far more suited to Chelsea than ourselves. We simply do not have the midfield capable of supporting him as a lone striker and, as you say, we've yet to see him playing in a more orthodox pairing which is solely Rodgers' fault. I've never been against the signing of Benteke because I don't think he's good enough to play for us, rather because I don't think he's the right player for us. Changing our style of play would be fair enough had we gone out and signed players who could accommodate him but we didn't and that's why I think Benteke will be the final nail in Brendan's coffin.