The Negative Gang - It aint personal

Yeah see what your saying about the losses. At the time I did think Morientes would be a great signing. That header against Fulham re-affirmed that belief.

But what about my last point. With a budget of 132 million pounds, Rafa should have been able to turn an already top four team in to a genuine championship challenging team regardless of other teams and what they spend

Would you agree with that?

No I wouldn't agree TBH. If everyone else stood still then I'd agree that money would suffice, but everyone else hasn't been standing still. We also weren't established top four before, and although Rafa admittedly was poor in the league during his first season we have come third for the last two seasons whilst winning a couple of trophies. That to me is progress.

Seconded!

Totally uncalled for AJ. If Donrafael & Richobaz are having a go at it and its getting heated and abusive, the best thing to do is try, in all maturity, to defuse the tension before it degenerates into something worse, not take sides and join one party in the abuse of another. That is so uncool.

I have been down this road where i got into a bad argument with someone and others joined in and began to be abusive towards me; meanwhile, the party I was in a situation with was not being abusive towards me.

Totally uncalled for AJ. If Donrafael & Richobaz are having a go at it and its getting heated and abusive, the best thing to do is try, in all maturity, to defuse the tension before it degenerates into something worse, not take sides and join one party in the abuse of another. That is so uncool.

I have been down this road where I got into a bad argument with someone and others joined in and began to be abusive towards me; meanwhile, the party I was in a situation with was not being abusive towards me.

Seconded, totally agree with you Solodee.
Sometimes when you see a heated argument between two people, best thing to do is try and bring peace rather than taking sides. It's not cool at all, anyone who joins in are in my opinion being weak.

Where's the peace gone? No one take sides, 3 on 1 is just immature, if there is a problem and its not yours.. don't make it a problem for you.. either introduce the peace or ignore it!

This message isn't going out to AJ, it's going out to everyone.. and I feel like I'm man enough to tell you guys this whether I'm a moderator or not, we are all human

I would be interested to know who you think are not putting in the effort.  I think most of the squad put in the effort most of the time, it's the quality of some of the play which I think is the problem.  For example, in the game against Villa, Kuyt totally wrong footed the defender and raced down the wing to be faced with one defender, the goalkeeper and Torres in the area.  He found the defender with his pass.  It is hard to suppress a groan when such a good chance is created and then is let down by the final pass.  This has been repeated far too often in recent matches and I understand the groans from fans when the final ball does not reach its target.  The groans are an indication of the fan's involvement with the team so I can't condemn it.  I don't think it is negativity, it is just frustration that good build up play has not resulted in a more positive outcome.

I must admit I am stuck in the 90's.  the 1890's.

Yeah, I agree about that Oldred. Good point. The quality of play has been casual but then I would put that hand in hand with lack of effort, wouldn't you? Players who have stood out for me are the likes of Riise, Kuyt, Kewell, Benayoun ( I wont mention Voronin) when it comes to not putting the effort in and being casual. And when I think of being effective going on the attack these players play a part - or should be as the case has been. I know Riise is used as a left back but regarding him when he's been in midfield.
And you're right about the involvement of the fans when this happens at the match. I do the groans myself, it's only natural but it's what follows the groans that turns into negativity. I should have made that a bit clearer mate. Encouragement rather than silence if you know what I mean.

As for the 1890s!! Wasn't that a decade of being Gay - as in the merriment sense of the word?  That's not negative at all!!

132 million to Rafa in 4 seasons. 255 million to Fergie since 2001.

There is no comparing that.

Seconded, totally agree with you Solodee.
Sometimes when you see a heated argument between two people, best thing to do is try and bring peace rather than taking sides. It's not cool at all, anyone who joins in are in my opinion being weak.

Where's the peace gone? No one take sides, 3 on 1 is just immature, if there is a problem and its not yours.. don't make it a problem for you.. either introduce the peace or ignore it!

This message isn't going out to AJ, it's going out to everyone.. and I feel like I'm man enough to tell you guys this whether I'm a moderator or not, we are all human

You two are wasting your talents on here.

You should apply to be marriage guide councillors...

Or the men to end the war in Iraq.

132 million to Rafa in 4 seasons. 255 million to Fergie since 2001.

There is no comparing that.

Since 1998 United have spent the following:

269.92 million on 36 players and regenerated 121.75 million selling 51 players

Leaving a total outgoing of 148.17 million

In the same period we have spent 262.996 million on 89 players and regenerated 71.171 million selling players

Leaving a total outgoing of 198.921 million

Thats 77.71 million more than United. Since 2004 we have spent far more also

We really can't play the money card I'm afraid

I'm afraid we can Fowler23
 
One big thing you missed in those stats is that whilst we've spent near enough an equal amount in the last 10 years, we spent it on 89 players whereas Utd spent it on 36. Utd had a wealth of youth players that came through, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Butt, the Nevilles et al, that meant they could focus their spending on quality rather than quantity. In a few years when Rafa's youth policy flourishes we will be able to do the same, but it won't happen overnight.

Ed, Id personally rather buy it on quality even though it would be taking a risk as there would be little quality in the backup. But I think for the long term a smaller but stronger team would only do us the world of good. Man Utd a couple of years ago had a small team, they were lacking back up in midfield and only just pipped us to 2nd even though we were probably the better team that season... anyway the season after they bought back up and when Scholes was injury free and they had a midfield they won the Prem.

I just think that the players who are not good enough for a first team place should be sold... all of them unless they are getting used for backup and NOT rotation!

From now on I'd agree we need to buy quality, but I think the squad bolstering that has already taken place was much needed.

I'm afraid we can Fowler23
 
One big thing you missed in those stats is that whilst we've spent near enough an equal amount in the last 10 years, we spent it on 89 players whereas Utd spent it on 36. Utd had a wealth of youth players that came through, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Butt, the Nevilles et al, that meant they could focus their spending on quality rather than quantity. In a few years when Rafa's youth policy flourishes we will be able to do the same, but it won't happen overnight.

No we can't. The figures prove this.

The amount we have got back from transfers just goes to show how many failures we have bought and is an indication of how much we p*ssed away. Our transfer record has been poor during the Premiership era

As for our youth policy? We would have to wait and see but would you really want to put all your hopes on it?

Have you completely ignored my previous post? We have spent that money on a lot more players as we weren't as strong as Utd in 1998. If we were we could've spent that money on less players ourselves. 
 
Also I'm not arguing that we've made some poor signings over the last 10 years, but a lot of them were Houllier signings. It would be interesting to see what return we've had on players Rafa bought then sold on. Seeing as our biggest loss has been Morientes at £3m I'd say the deficit would be pretty small.

If you go through the players you think are sh*t (personally I disagree with a couple), who has been sold on at a major loss, or is likely to be? The biggest loss Rafa has made on a player is a measly £3m on Morientes, and being honest who wasn't excited when we signed him? Every manager will make mistakes with transfers, it's when they start costing us big money we need to start worrying. Even Wenger lost big money on Wiltord & Reyes, though apparently he's the shrewdest manager out there.

Completely agree.  Don't forget that Wenger shelled out quite a bit of money for 'The Fox in the Box' Franny Jeffers as well.  Benitez gets lambasted for his transfer dealings but his successes far surpass his failings, and financially he hasn't yet made a major error e.g. Diao, Diouf, Cisse... Major errors.  Yes, there have been mistakes, but they have been rectified, and quickly on the majority of occasions I.e. Josemi, was sold for the same figure he was purchased for when it became clear he wasn't good enough... Kromkamp was shifted in a similar fashion, but these two will both claim that they won major trophies while at Liverpool, even though their contribution wasn't worthy of their medals... Pellegrino was a 6 month loan signing... Nunez was a makeweight in the Michael Owen deal... Zenden was a free signing on the back of his best season at Boro... Bellamy was another signing who had just had a good season at Blackburn and we never lost any money on him when he was sold to West Ham, and Voronin (another free signing) isn't an adequate enough replacement imo... Morientes is undoubtedly a good player and I was chuffed when he was signed... however, he just wasn't cut out for the Premiership... Aurelio is starting to look like he doesn't have what it takes, but prior to his injury last season he was starting to look like a quality player... Dirk Kuyt just hasn't progressed... Pennant was never Benitez's first choice and isn't good enough imo... and Sissoko will be sold at a profit, as the majority of Rafa's signing would be if they were sold...

Every top manager makes mistakes, but imo Rafa is yet to make a major one with regards to finance, and when he has been given the sort of money to compete with Man Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal for one player in the transfer market, he has gone out and signed one of the best strikers in the world.  Wenger, and Ferguson have made major errors, but that doesn't mean that they aren't top class Managers because obviously they are...However, they haven't had their jobs brought into serious doubt when they have had barren spells, and I'm talking a couple of years without winning a major trophy from two clubs that were many years ahead of Liverpool Football Club when Rafa took over... The facts speak for themselves really... Two Champions League finals, a Carling Cup Final ( practically reached by the second string of players), an FA Cup, A Super Cup, and our highest ever Premiership points finish... In my honest opinion that represents progress, and in my honest opinion Rafa is the right man for the job... Ok we haven't won the Title since 1990 but the competition gets better and better which is only going to make it harder, but Rafa is the right man to get us there.  Patience is vital, but many of us don't seem to have that.

Give him the same money, which we have, as Fergie has and you will see massive changes in our play and league standing. Our transfers have been made due to lack of depth, meaning we go for quantity rather than quality and go for shrewd signings which often failed under Houllier. Rafa has made some shrewd signings and payed off, Arbeloa and Reina for example. He has the wit to pit it out against Fergie and Co. if given the money power to do so alah Torres.

Infact I do kinda see a point in the money situation as Rafa did want two quality players in Simao & Mancini, he also wanted Dani Alves but couldn't afford neither of them! He was interested in Florent Malouda but got no luck out of the deal... I do kind of think I'm being a little harsh on him, I would actually give him funds in the summer to spend the money his way... if it doesn't turn out right then I guess there would be no choice but to part with him!

I wasn't dissapointed seeing Lucas Leiva, Ryan Babel & Fernando Torres joining the club in the summer, I reckon he done a good bit of buisness but only really Torres was the improvement to the first team as Babel & Lucas are still young and Torres was a captain at Atletico so he found the pressure lets say, a little lower than expected.

I think Rafa should loosen up a bit though, maybe he shouldn't be so stubborn.. good on him but its not doing him any favours!

I would sit with him and say to him, next season is the season to prove your the right man for us. If he wanted £20m for Daniel Alves I'd give it to him, if he wanted £25m for David Villa I'd give it to him... but if theres no progress then like I said there would be no other choice!

Give him another chance, but please Rafa no more Bellamy, Benayoun, Pennant, Kuyt buys... please for the sake of Liverpool Football Club and the fans!

If he had money he wouldnt buy Bellamy and Co.

If he had money he wouldnt buy Bellamy and Co.

Which is precisely my point...  Would Rafa have gone out and bought many of the players he has done if he had the finance to compete with Man Utd, Chelsea, or Arsenal when he took over Liverpool Football Club? ...I doubt it.  When he has been given the finances to compete with those three teams he has bought Fernando Torres, and Ryan Babel (although not on the same scale)...
It has been a needs must situation in the past for Benitez, but hopefully that won't be the case in the future, and with that in mind i think he should be judged in the next couple of seasons rather than his first couple of seasons.

You two are wasting your talents on here.

You should apply to be marriage guide councillors...

Or the men to end the war in Iraq.

So Hilarious!

Which is precisely my point...  Would Rafa have gone out and bought many of the players he has done if he had the finance to compete with Man Utd, Chelsea, or Arsenal when he took over Liverpool Football Club? ...I doubt it.  When he has been given the finances to compete with those three teams he has bought Fernando Torres, and Ryan Babel (although not on the same scale)...
It has been a needs must situation in the past for Benitez, but hopefully that won't be the case in the future, and with that in mind I think he should be judged in the next couple of seasons rather than his first couple of seasons.

Precisely my point too Istvan. People need to realise the logic behind his transfers.