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      West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate

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      Magillionare
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #874: Jan 03, 2016 12:10:39 am
      He cannot be managed.

      Balotelli

      1 in 2.75 for Man City
      1 in 1.65 for Milan

      Benteke

      1 in 2.66 for Liverpool
      1 in 2 for Genk

      Benteke has never achieved a goal to game ratio of less than 2. Balotelli has, and that's when the world is writing him off as not reaching his full potential and not being manageable.

      Also, when Rodgers said Balotelli 'is too much effort' he should have been sacked there and then. No manager should ever go public with something like that and should act like a professional. If he cant hack managing at a top club and managing players like Balotelli then go back to Swansea City and manage Jonjo Shelvey.

      Oh, and if Balotelli is so hard to handle, why the heck did Roberto Mancini try to sign him at Inter Milan in the summer, after already managing him at Manchester City? He clearly is hard work, but he also can be handled. Yes, its stressful, thats why these managers are paid so much. They are not paid to just give up on extremely talented individuals.

      You have twisted stats there to make Mario look better. Present them as they are.

      Benteke:
      Gent: 20 in 41
      Villa: 49 in 100
      Liverpool: 7 in 19

      Balo:
      Inter: 28 in 86
      City: 30 in 80
      Milan: 30 in 54
      Liverpool: 4 in 28

      Balo does it in the abomination that is Serie A where a 40 year old Luca Toni was top scorer last year. He's not the answer. Benteke scorers in the premier league, we know that, he's already got more than Mario in half the games. Atrocious performance today but I still think he'll score goals if we stick with him. Balo does not give me the same confidence.



      Beerbelly
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #875: Jan 03, 2016 12:11:12 am
      Because Balotelli is better than Benteke. That's why Balotelli has won Serie A multiple times, the Premier League once, the FA Cup once and his old manager wanted to sign him, and Benteke's greatest accomplishment is stopping Villa getting relegated.

      Let's be honest fella, both aren't good enough.

      Draw a line under it.
      srslfc
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #876: Jan 03, 2016 12:16:02 am
      Seriously lads can we stop discussing Mario in the Match Thread.
      racerx34
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #877: Jan 03, 2016 12:22:39 am
      We have transfer threads lads.
      Enough with the Balo talk.

      Another striker who wouldn't work in a high pressing system is not the answer.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #878: Jan 03, 2016 12:26:47 am
      So basically we sign Andy Carroll for 35m. Break our record books by doing so. Straight away he sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't fit into our team. It isn't long until we take a hit and sell him to West Ham for half the price.

      We then sign Balotelli who is also a target man type player but supposedly with a little more class than Carroll. The lad couldn't hit a F***ing barn door in a red shirt so he was dropped for bloody Rickie Lambert who is another target man. He also struggled in a red shirt too to the point we had to play without a recognised striker and let young Raheem lead the line.

      So we then splash the majority of our transfer funds on Benteke. Yet another target man who had a 1 in 2 goal ratio but he has been absolutely piss poor since he arrived here.

      And now I'm reading that somebody wants to go back to Balotelli?

      F**k me. WE NEED A F***ing MOBILE FORWARD.

      TonioLerouge
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #879: Jan 03, 2016 01:53:29 am
      "Balotelli", "Rodgers", defeat against West Ham...

      Who has necroed a thread from last season ?
      lfc across the water
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #880: Jan 03, 2016 01:54:48 am
      Quote from welshred
      Are you suggesting that is fine for a club like Liverpool? That is nowhere near an acceptable standard and just goes to prove my point a few days ago whereby fans have come to accept mediocre as the order of the day at Liverpool FC.

      I'm not suggesting anything. I'm posting what actually happened. However, I don't consider winning the second most important domestic cup as accepting mediocrity. A cup is a cup. We haven't won very many in the past 10 years, so we'll take what we get, thank you.

      Quote
      That's faltering at the final hurdle.

      It is what it is. You said it happened "again" when it didn't. Instead it was nearest we've come to winning it in 25 years. But just getting that far was an achievement in itself considering what we were up against. That's not mediocrity either, that's the reality of where we stood at the time.

      Quote
      That's because they also have some better players. Vardy is a better striker than Benteke and is proven it for fun. Mahrez is a better player than all of our creative players other than Coutinho. As it currently stands, in form, he is better than Coutinho. They are not B grade fodder players at all. They are better players than what we have, because whilst we showed a complete lack of ambition bringing in a domestic level manager and domestic level overrated English players, Leicester City have gone out and bagged a credible Ranieri and talent on the continent. Lets stop accepting this mediocre nonsense and start accepting that other clubs who will not accept mediocre are surpassing us because we are allowing them to do so.

      When the tough gets going, there is no fight, and that's because this is a side of domestic level players built by Rodgers. Other clubs have gone out and got the true talent abroad whilst we have splashed a ridiculous amount of domestic B grade fodder. As for leaders, yes there's none. That's because all of the players who had any ounce of fight in them have either retired, sold or were surplus to requirements by that genius called Rodgers. You can defend Rodgers all you like but the reality is we now have a team with no spine in it because Carragher retired, Agger was sold and not replaced, Gerrard was deemed surplus to requirements and Suarez sold and replaced with a player who is about as far away from Suarez in styles as possible.

      Vardy had his chance recently to show Benteke how much of a better player he was. He was hauled off while Benteke scored the winner. Why are we having this discussion?

      Mahrez made no impact either, and Leicester haven't scored in 3 games. Looks like the honeymoon there is over.

      There's been a lack of fight and leadership here for a long time, even when Carragher and Gerrard were around. The kind of players that want the ball when we're coasting, suddenly look like amateurs when the going gets tough. And at Upton Park, the tough often gets going.

      Quote
      The reality is that Balotelli, when on the pitch, was the designated penalty kick taker. Rodgers himself even admitted that. Henderson was in the wrong for trying to spot up the kick in the first place.

      Who takes spot kicks is irrelevant. This is an issue of leadership. And a captain needs to be a natural, authoritative, strong leader where his word is law, not be pushed around and disrespected by his own teammates. If they see him as weak, they'll treat him as weak. He came across in the incident as someone who isn't up to the job. And he isn't. Fortunately for him, few of them are.

      Meanwhile on a side note, regardless who is in charge, playing him against Sunderland is simply idiotic imo as I don't think his heart is in it. He's still an active fan of the club after all, who is known to still go to their games. Put it this way, he wasn't applauded off the pitch by their fans this week for nothing.

      Thankfully, despite Jürgen's by now daily moaning of how busy our schedule is, the next game is just around the corner. That's how it is in England, one game after another this time of year. Perfect for filing results like this one as a footnote in the season.
      American Red
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #881: Jan 03, 2016 02:10:43 am
      Klopp said it perfectly in that we completely lacked passion and heart. It's so incredibly evident that we go into these games completely underestimating our opponents and we play down to well below our potential.

      They kept it simple all game and it paid off for them. Hopefully things continue to change in the heads of the players.

      Other issues include our lack of quality in various parts of the pitch, lack of squad depth, lack of a mobile forward that fits our system, and horrid set pieces/crossing abilities both defensively and offensively. Hundreds of millions in squad value and we can't even put a decent f*cking cross in or defend one for that matter.

      We are beyond desperate for some better quality in our side and for our current players to start showing what they're made of. Couts, Firmino, Benteke, and others can be a bit painful to watch sometimes.
      grooveshark
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #882: Jan 03, 2016 05:21:30 am
      It's a strange one. Under BR, fair enough, at the start of this season the players seem to have tuned out.

      But they look similarly low on confidence/belief now, after the (away results) upswing when Klopp took over.

      Having only 1 fit forward (not counting Firmino) though is a massive problem, so Klopps hands are pretty tied there. Has no choice but to play Benteke, and try his best to fit (fit) players round him. It's not really working at the moment. Does he drop Benteke, stick Firmino up there? BR did it with Sterling for a spell and that wasn't bad (tho I'd have Sterling any day over Firmino). It's not ideal, don't know the answer, but need to somehow make best of the cards dealt.
      Personally, I have never believed that Benteke is the main problem. He is part of the issue, but not the main issue.

      If you are playing with a target man, his job is to get to the end of crosses, to hold the ball up as the team gets support, and for him to drop a bit deeper as others make runs beyond him.

      How many players are consistently making runs beyond Benteke? How many players are making a pass to him, and making a run into space to receive the ball, or making a run when that ball is played to him? And when the ball is played long, how much support is there around him when he eventually wins the ball?

      We seem to be of the opinion that a more mobile striker is the answer, but has Origi been that good? No, he hasnt and the main reason is the ability of that midfield to dictate tempo, to play and create against teams that have set up to sit deep and counter, teams that are more than willing to give up possession if it possess a risk. Then you have the fullbacks. Clyne isnt great on the ball, heck, he isnt good on it, and Moreno has issues with decision making when it comes to defending.

      We have a single style of play, which is press and run, and the moment teams get around that, sit back and deny space, then there is a problem, and one that manager's for years have been unable to solve
      AussieRed
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #883: Jan 03, 2016 05:33:26 am
      We don't miss Gerrard on the field being brutally honest - a leader no doubt but we need players in their peak with a tough mentality. Not old players who are past it.


      You kidding me right?

      Even now, I bet Steven has more desire, strength, will to win, passion and leadership then Coutinho, Firmino, Benteke, Can, Lucas and Allen combined.

      They are the qualities we were crying out for last night and not of those players listed showed any!


      I'm F***ing Angry, JK is Angry, he has the ability to something about it, so I hope he does and quick!

      TheShanklyGates
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #884: Jan 03, 2016 06:26:52 am
      That was one of the most shambolic performances I've seen. The players don't look like they give a sh*t. I'm happy that Klopp was raging at FT. Time to weed out the players that don't want to be there and start bringing in the players Klopp wants and needs.

      I'm really hoping we have at least a striker in for the Arsenal game. Speaking of strikers,I cannot wait until Ings is back and fully fit. There's no doubt in my mind if he was fit he would be the 1st choice striker. I think he'll thrive under Klopp and going by other fans on Twitter today I'm not alone in thinking this.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #885: Jan 03, 2016 09:24:19 am
      Benteke scored in the last two games.

      He can't do it all himself you know? How about the midfield chipping in? Too much to ask?



      Fair point. Although Benteke was awful yesterday he certainly wasn't alone. Thing is, with him, I just can't see it happening long term.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #886: Jan 03, 2016 09:41:19 am
      Balotelli has won things, has a better return and has played for bigger clubs. Why not give him a chance to prove himself? Why not give him something that Rodgers refused to properly give him? Rodgers played him out wide. Rodgers gave him substitute appearances, but only twice put him up top with another striker, a system that suits Balotelli. Balotelli deserves a shot under Klopp just like every other player of ours and if any of them are not good enough, ship the fecking lot of em.

      The mark of a world class striker is being able to do it alone when needed. Mario was found wanting in this area.
      David Wright
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #887: Jan 03, 2016 09:58:30 am
      Only a mass clear out over the next couple of transfer windows, will begin to start solving the problems. I think Klopp must at least, try to sign a quality keeper and defender. Think there is a lot to be said about sorting out the defence if you want to make any significant progress, in improving the side.
      heimdall
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #888: Jan 03, 2016 10:15:45 am
      I also think it might be worth giving Balotelli a go although I'm not overly optimistic.

      On another note what is the news regarding Ings, is he definitely out for the whole season?
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #889: Jan 03, 2016 10:23:13 am
      Whats this discussion about Ballotelli? He would be one of a very select few professional footballers who would make us even worse still. He's sh*te.

      As for the players at the club, they just arent good enough and Klopp would be mistaken to give too many of them even a chance to turn it around.

      Its a disgrace how lacking in vision those responsible for player recruitment have been. Benteke has no business in our front line, same as any target man we have signed since Crouch.

      They need to knock it on the F***ing head because none of us wants to see Liverpool playing with one. Pisses me right off every time we pay out multi millions for them for the pleasure of watching boring, predictable, sh*t football.

      2 years from now it will be Benteke scoring against us but I wont give a sh*t because like Carroll yesterday, he wont be plodding about for us any more. 32million quid plus wages.  :-\
      Cad1875
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #890: Jan 03, 2016 10:29:21 am
      Hard job to turn a performance like that around far to many not at the races ,you could easily drop 4 or 5  of them
      welshred
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #891: Jan 03, 2016 10:35:56 am
      Personally, I believe Balotelli, just like anyone else at the club, deserves a chance to prove himself under Klopp. Bring him back this January and give him a shot. If he performs again, the solution is simple, get rid of him and Benteke is the summer, and spend the money on a transfer fee and wages for a mobile forward like Aubameyang. That's the last I'm saying on it as others are not happy about us talking about Balotelli in here, and understandably so.
      waltonl4
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #892: Jan 03, 2016 10:39:35 am
      Personally, I believe Balotelli, just like anyone else at the club, deserves a chance to prove himself under Klopp. Bring him back this January and give him a shot. If he performs again, the solution is simple, get rid of him and Benteke is the summer, and spend the money on a transfer fee and wages for a mobile forward like Aubameyang. That's the last I'm saying on it as others are not happy about us talking about Balotelli in here, and understandably so.

      start your own Mario appreciation thread but stop bringing it into a game thread.
      Wonder how the debrief will go today any of them big enough to stand up and admit they were sh*te.
      carragerrard
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #893: Jan 03, 2016 10:50:03 am
      this is a thread on a very disappointing Liverpool display
      It has nothing to do with Balotelli , he is on loan , and not playing fro LFC , so he has nothing to do with this awful game for us
           
          IMHO   Most of the players are OFF form, its not that they are not good players, they seem to lack passion, stamina, concentration, and most of all team sprit,
         look at the Leicester, Watford, for example, do they have individual players better than LIVERPOOL's?
                                               certainly NO
       But they have what we are lacking, team spirit and ready to fight for every ball and second ball
        and this has to change if we want to see a better 2nd half of the season

      YNWA
       
      waltonl4
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #894: Jan 03, 2016 11:05:23 am
      anyone going to start a thread for Tuesday Semi final 1st leg against Stoke. After this game how do you focus on that because you cannot just ignore what happened yet we have to be ready for Stoke. Welcome to the EPL Jürgen its a madhouse
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #895: Jan 03, 2016 11:16:28 am
      With all due respect to Kenny, and none whatsoever to Rodgers, that's what happens when you bring in a manager who has been out of the game for so long, and when you bring in a manager who is only proven at domestic level with his greatest accomplishment being that he kept Swansea City up. Even Leicester City had greater ambitions bringing in Ranieri who had done more previously and is fairly well respected in the European game. Our owners tried to do things on the cheap, rather than bringing in a proven manager, and its cost them. Now they'll have to sell off the bad signings at cut price and accept that now they have to invest even more to bring in quality players who can actually get the job done under a manager proven at European level.

      I just don't get how fans can still defend Rodgers. Okay, he was our manager when we came second and close to winning the league but lets not pretend that didn't have a lot to do with Suarez literally ripping teams to shreds week in, week out. He was dragging us to the league title, only for us to falter at the final hurdle again. The side out there now has no suitable Suarez replacement, no suitable Agger replacement, no suitable Reina replacement and no suitable Gerrard replacement. I am unbelievably pissed off because the spine of a strong team has been completely dismantled and replaced with B grade fodder and so many of our fans are lapping it up like its wonderful.

      How long are they going to continue acting and pretending like Allen is actually good? He is a mid table Premier League player at best. So many of our fans need to bloody wake up its unbelievable. The world of delusion they are living in knows no bounds. Time for a whiskey me thinks.

       :mad:
      Kenny had the saying in who was signed in all fairness Rodgers did not
      redkop63
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      Re: West Ham 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #896: Jan 03, 2016 11:26:23 am
      Engaged a manager that has not won a major honour with a busload of so called young  potemtial players plus a horse box of over priced stars, we are seeing the effects of it now. The owner simply asked for this to happen, trying to be too cute doing things in a bizarre manner.

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