AFC Bournemouth 4-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with this torture on a regular basis.

Head up la.


YNWA.

Can't go scapegoating everyone or anyone we choose however tempting. Karius in particular is getting some sh*t. That's the easy answer but it's the wrong answer. It's also the cowards answer. This was a collective failure!

We can either swivel on it or work at it. What's it going to be?

Look that was f**king awful, we were pretty sh*te all game truth be told but that's football, you win, you lose.... If it was predictable then it wouldn't be what it is

They aren't a good side, they didn't really put us under an amount of pressure that should have led to that, we were laxidaical for the best part and brought it on ourselves and ultimately two keeper errors and that approach at 2-0 and 3-1 cost us

But f**k me look at the bigger picture, look at the strides being made from bar one season in the last 7 where we have finished 6th-8th... we have made giant strides and we have had one bad f**king awful afternoon and some of the posts on here are well you should be ashamed of them.... suck it the f**k up, you can lose games, it's about the response now... we are in this title race when most of us and most of the media never thought we would be, Chelsea are having an unbelievable run currently but that won't last forever, and truth be told they have a more experienced squad than we do

Its a bad day but let's please look at the bigger picture than hang them out to dry, some reactions on here would make you think we were battling relegation not lost our first game since August

You have to be careful, talking sense on a Liverpool forum after a loss. Might catch on!

I see the big issue is in midfield, far too many lighweight and slow players in Wijnaldum, Firminho Hendo and  Hendo. Well hendo is slightly better but he chose to be slow.

Indeed.

I rather think Can should be the deep midfielder, with license for the odd probing run/attack.





Runs off the find the helmet so I don't get damaged by all the bricks that will now be thrown my way.

My ratings:

Karius: Never really looked comfortable and in truth hasn't really settled yet. He looks to me a very similar kind of keeper to Mignolet in many respects, not really commanding but can save the odd shot here and there. I'd stick with him at least for the time being, at least there's a chance he may get better whereas with Migs you pretty much know what you are going to get. Not good today though by a long chalk. 4/10

Clyne: I thought he had a pretty decent game in all honesty, I don't recall him being at fault for any of the goals and was decent going forward. Would have had an assist had Origi not inexplicably put it wide from two yards out in the first half. 7/10.

Lucas: I'm surprised people are being quite so negative about him to be honest. Yes he wasn't good when the wheels fell off, but to my mind he was as good as you could expect before that. 6/10.

Lovren: At fault for the first goal but couldn't do too much about the others. No surprise to see him named as one of the main reasons for our capitulation, but the reality is he was OK. 6/10.

Milner: I thought he was excellent and the one experienced player who stood up. Gave the penalty away for the first but was dropped in the sh!te by a poor header from Lovren. Other than that, very good. 8/10.

Henderson: A good pass for Origi's goal but the nagging doubts about him as a leader who will really alter the course of a game remain. Is happy in the 6 role when playing it square and taking the obvious pass, but when you need him to dig in, get a foot in, tell people where to be he can go missing. Like no doubt every red fan in the World I was screaming at the TV in the dying second when he chose to pass it backwards and safe. My SOTD (scapegoat of the day). 5/10.

Can: Has come in for a lot of flak and in truth wasn't great. The feeling persists that his best position is being taken up by the captain, and IMHO neither are good enough to play higher up on a regular basis as Emre proved today. Good goal though. 6/10.

Wijnaldum: Bits and pieces performance which never looked like it would influence the course of the game one way or the other. Must do better. 5/10.

Mane: Good goal but times a bit wasteful. I was urging him to go at the fullback a couple of times when he was one v one, but all in was OK. 6/10.

Origi: Great finish for his goal but missed an absolute sitter before that. Tried his best, but at being the type of forward he is trying to become there are some in the league who are IMHO miles better at it. 5/10.

Firmino: Very poor on the day, didn't look like he fancied it at all. Normally he's a false 9, today he was every inch a false 11. 5/10.





All in all though I wouldn't be too down about things. We are still right in there and the last time we lost a silly game we went on a great run. Time to do it again.

     

Origi: Great finish for his goal but missed an absolute sitter before that. Tried his best, but at being the type of forward he is trying to become there are some in the league who are IMHO miles better at it. 5/10.
   

Which type of forward exactly? Which are these some who are miles better? Can we also take into account their age too? He has scored in his last 3 matches, and scores whenever he gets his chance while being fairly young.

Which type of forward exactly? Which are these some who are miles better? Can we also take into account their age too? He has scored in his last 3 matches, and scores whenever he gets his chance while being fairly young.

Well in terms of the big, physical, bully, powerful type of forward I think he aspires to be the players I'm thinking of are Lukaku, Diego Costa types. They are IMHO in a different stratosphere to Origi. It will surprise nobody that I think Benteke is a far better player too, although obviously I accept I'll be in the significant minority there. Rashford is a far better player too IMHO, as is Giroud. And Kane. Anyway enough.

Well in terms of the big, physical, bully, powerful type of forward I think he aspires to be the players I'm thinking of are Lukaku, Diego Costa types. They are IMHO in a different stratosphere to Origi. It will surprise nobody that I think Benteke is a far better player too, although obviously I accept I'll be in the significant minority there. Rashford is a far better player too IMHO, as is Giroud. And Kane. Anyway enough.

Pretty sure Rahsford won't get a sniff at the first team as far as attackers are concerned. All of them you listed are first team starters. While Origi has been used as an impact sub at times, because of the quality of front 3 we have had this season, which also includes Sturridge.
 
Benteke can't be compared with Origi, due to one simple thing- Origi's movement, rest of his play isn't needed to be compared.

Hary Kane was a nobody until he got that one season that set him up .

Giroud is far older than Origi, he is 30. Comparison is not valid.

Diego Costa is 28 years old( in his prime), comparison is invalid.

Only valid comparisons that we can make are with Kane, and Lukaku, of which I'm pretty sure for the latter that Origi can also bang as many goals as he does ( Even more) if he plays regularly.

Didn't really come out 2nd half IMO. A bit complacent maybe after completely dominating the 1st half? Probably thought game was done and dusted instead of just carrying on full tilt. Fair play to Bournemout, they didn't give up like we did. Guarantee someone is getting roasted on the coach home either way...

Well in terms of the big, physical, bully, powerful type of forward I think he aspires to be the players I'm thinking of are Lukaku, Diego Costa types. They are IMHO in a different stratosphere to Origi. It will surprise nobody that I think Benteke is a far better player too, although obviously I accept I'll be in the significant minority there. Rashford is a far better player too IMHO, as is Giroud. And Kane. Anyway enough.

There has been sh*te on this forum after the game but this post is the winner for complete bollocks - "Benteke better than Origi" OML........

?? Weren't three of their goals scored after he went off, so how the f**k can it be Mane's fault?

Yep. 3-1 when Lallana came on.

Even the best teams lose games from time to time. 

But not after being up TWICE with 2 goals against an inferior opponent while being a title contender. And it's not the first time we took a lead and then couldn't control it. Therefore I somehow like this mess because it should prevent Klopp and his team to waive it off as "sh*t happens" and force them to a serious self-scout.

I still think we're in the race, Chelsea is just 4 points ahead and I do not consider them flawless.

I tell my sons futsal team (u10) that you will lose games no matter what. I think the same applies to teams at all levels ... just don't lose 2 in a row.

My ratings:

Karius: Never really looked comfortable and in truth hasn't really settled yet. He looks to me a very similar kind of keeper to Mignolet in many respects, not really commanding but can save the odd shot here and there. I'd stick with him at least for the time being, at least there's a chance he may get better whereas with Migs you pretty much know what you are going to get. Not good today though by a long chalk. 4/10

Clyne: I thought he had a pretty decent game in all honesty, I don't recall him being at fault for any of the goals and was decent going forward. Would have had an assist had Origi not inexplicably put it wide from two yards out in the first half. 7/10.

Lucas: I'm surprised people are being quite so negative about him to be honest. Yes he wasn't good when the wheels fell off, but to my mind he was as good as you could expect before that. 6/10.

Lovren: At fault for the first goal but couldn't do too much about the others. No surprise to see him named as one of the main reasons for our capitulation, but the reality is he was OK. 6/10.

Milner: I thought he was excellent and the one experienced player who stood up. Gave the penalty away for the first but was dropped in the sh!te by a poor header from Lovren. Other than that, very good. 8/10.

Henderson: A good pass for Origi's goal but the nagging doubts about him as a leader who will really alter the course of a game remain. Is happy in the 6 role when playing it square and taking the obvious pass, but when you need him to dig in, get a foot in, tell people where to be he can go missing. Like no doubt every red fan in the World I was screaming at the TV in the dying second when he chose to pass it backwards and safe. My SOTD (scapegoat of the day). 5/10.

Can: Has come in for a lot of flak and in truth wasn't great. The feeling persists that his best position is being taken up by the captain, and IMHO neither are good enough to play higher up on a regular basis as Emre proved today. Good goal though. 6/10.

Wijnaldum: Bits and pieces performance which never looked like it would influence the course of the game one way or the other. Must do better. 5/10.

Mane: Good goal but times a bit wasteful. I was urging him to go at the fullback a couple of times when he was one v one, but all in was OK. 6/10.

Origi: Great finish for his goal but missed an absolute sitter before that. Tried his best, but at being the type of forward he is trying to become there are some in the league who are IMHO miles better at it. 5/10.

Firmino: Very poor on the day, didn't look like he fancied it at all. Normally he's a false 9, today he was every inch a false 11. 5/10.





All in all though I wouldn't be too down about things. We are still right in there and the last time we lost a silly game we went on a great run. Time to do it again.

   

Firmino played a 4/10 and Lovren 3/10 for me.

I have not seen the match yet but I have just one question,what the F**k went wrong to go from a lead of 3-1 to get beat 4-3.

Pretty sure Rahsford won't get a sniff at the first team as far as attackers are concerned. All of them you listed are first team starters. While Origi has been used as an impact sub at times, because of the quality of front 3 we have had this season, which also includes Sturridge.
 
Benteke can't be compared with Origi, due to one simple thing- Origi's movement, rest of his play isn't needed to be compared.

Hary Kane was a nobody until he got that one season that set him up .

Giroud is far older than Origi, he is 30. Comparison is not valid.

Diego Costa is 28 years old( in his prime), comparison is invalid.

Only valid comparisons that we can make are with Kane, and Lukaku, of which I'm pretty sure for the latter that Origi can also bang as many goals as he does ( Even more) if he plays regularly.

"Valid" comparisons are with whoever anybody else chooses to select in the centre forward slot surely? In ten years time Origi will likely be a better player than Costa (who'll be 38 by then), but as of now the Chelsea bloke is in a different stratosphere. That's fair enough as the Chelsea man is a lot older and more experienced, but if you remember I simply pointed out in my original post that "but at being the type of forward he is trying to become there are some in the league who are IMHO miles better at it.". I didn't say "and Origi will never become as good as them", I didn't say "and Origi ought to be as good as them even though he hasn't got as much experience" either.

I'm simply making the point that as of now, as of today, he is IMHO someway short of the required standard for a team which has aspirations of winning the league. He has potential, he may become a decent player, but as of now he is a raw kid who is a fairly long way behind better exponents of what he is trying to do.

As for HSBC's comment about the Benteke comparison, clearly on here he would be in the majority as I said in the first place. That would be only on here though, ask most football supporters of other teams and there would be a fairly solid majority in favour of the now Crystal Palace player I should think. One things for sure, if he is correct and Origi is in fact a better player (and by quite a distance judging by the incredulous nature of his post) we have ourselves a huge asset. Benteke went for what was it 28 million quid in the Summer and has scored 7 league goals so far in his 12 appearances Presumably Origi is worth 50 million quid at least as he is younger, and would have scored far more if he played for Crystal Palace. Exciting times ahead.         

Firmino played a 4/10 and Lovren 3/10 for me.

Yes i read your comments during the actual match so I'm not surprised. It would though be rare (and fairly boring) if people watched the game and all agreed with each other. Firmino was definitely very poor you wouldn't get an argument from me on that score.

Fair enough mate sometimes you do need to get defensive to see games out. I concede that I just have a few questions. How often do Arsenal lose matches they were 2 goals up in? When was the last time Arsenal ever lost a match they were 2 goals up in (for the second time in the match) with 26 minutes to go against a team 9 places below them in the table? How often does any team with title aspirations add an extra centre half with 26 minutes to go when they're 2 goals up? It doesn't happen. It's not like there's a precedent for this. The closest occurrence like this I can think of is Arsenal drawing after going 4-0 up at Newcastle and even then they were down to 10 men for half the match.

Today was an anomaly, a freak capitulation of a performance. Klopp cannot legislate for his 6'2' centre forward losing out in the air to someone who is 5'8' on his tippy toes. Klopp cannot legislate for his goalkeeper dropping a clanger. Today's performance is not reflective of some greater failing in the manager. The players downed tools today and it's something which should be looked at in the coming days but this insistence that Klopp is responsible because he didn't go Mourinho/Pulis when his team was 2 goals up with 26 minutes to go against a team which is largely cannon fodder is wrong. Simple as that mate.

How many times has this happened where we have been in the lead only for us to concede and to be put under pressure simply because we still play as if we are losing?
I really like to see Klopp look into this and have us manage the game better when we have a 2 goal margin. I'm not asking for us to go Pulis/Mourinho defensive route, just be more cautious and not to over commit.

Well in terms of the big, physical, bully, powerful type of forward I think he aspires to be the players I'm thinking of are Lukaku, Diego Costa types. They are IMHO in a different stratosphere to Origi. It will surprise nobody that I think Benteke is a far better player too, although obviously I accept I'll be in the significant minority there. Rashford is a far better player too IMHO, as is Giroud. And Kane. Anyway enough.

Entitled to your opinion Mick but comparing the goals scored by Benteke and Origi for LFC does throw some doubt on your selection preferences.

"Valid" comparisons are with whoever anybody else chooses to select in the centre forward slot surely? In ten years time Origi will likely be a better player than Costa (who'll be 38 by then), but as of now the Chelsea bloke is in a different stratosphere. That's fair enough as the Chelsea man is a lot older and more experienced, but if you remember I simply pointed out in my original post that "but at being the type of forward he is trying to become there are some in the league who are IMHO miles better at it.". I didn't say "and Origi will never become as good as them", I didn't say "and Origi ought to be as good as them even though he hasn't got as much experience" either.

It's not really valid though in terms that Origi is our 3rd choice forward? I'd imagine if Coutinho had been fit then Firmino plays 9, and had Sturridge not got injured prior to Sunderland he would have started the last two( and likely come on against Sunderland) ahead of Divock.. So is Origi better than Spurs or Chelsea or Arsenals third choice no.9?

That's the fair comparison, comparing a still raw kid against Chelsea's in his prime first choice no.9? Seems a bit a bit harsh to me

There may well be 'better at being the type of forward he is trying to become' (i don't think he is trying to become that type thought for what its worth) but they in the options of Costa,Kane,Lukaku etc are the first choice at their clubs... Origi isn't here and if you compare IMHO against their clubs 3rd choices he certainly compares very well

Entitled to your opinion Mick but comparing the goals scored by Benteke and Origi for LFC does throw some doubt on your selection preferences.

Depends which was you look at it mate I should think. If you use the "goals per appearances" method which many on here favored while they were putting the boot into Benteke, I'd say Origi would win hands down. That's the one where you count a two minute cameo as an appearance.

If you go for the "goals per minute played" it'd be closer, but my guess is Origi would probably win again. Proof that he's a better player? Perhaps, but I'm more inclined to look at the way we either did or didn't utilize Benteke when we had him and in all truth, it's hardly surprising that (for us) his goals fell away a bit. Interestingly, even though Benteke went through a chronic confidence crisis while he wasn't playing for us he still managed to score at around the goal per two game ratio which has become his hallmark. He's doing the same or slightly better at Crystal Palace, and even there I think he's still carrying some of the mental baggage that is the scars from his experience with us.

Of course there's more to football and being a centre forward than just scoring goals, and if you look at who closes down better, runs around the most, works the channels etc etc then Origi is a mile ahead. If though you look at who leads the line, provides a focal point for the attack, holds the ball up etc then IMHO Benteke is the much better footballer. It's all down to personal preference obviously, but as I say goodness only knows how Origi is worth if he's as good as some of our fans seem to think.

It's not really valid though in terms that Origi is our 3rd choice forward? I'd imagine if Coutinho had been fit then Firmino plays 9, and had Sturridge not got injured prior to Sunderland he would have started the last two( and likely come on against Sunderland) ahead of Divock.. So is Origi better than Spurs or Chelsea or Arsenals third choice no.9?

That's the fair comparison, comparing a still raw kid against Chelsea's in his prime first choice no.9? Seems a bit a bit harsh to me

There may well be 'better at being the type of forward he is trying to become' (i don't think he is trying to become that type thought for what its worth) but they in the options of Costa,Kane,Lukaku etc are the first choice at their clubs... Origi isn't here and if you compare IMHO against their clubs 3rd choices he certainly compares very well

Origi is our third choice forward, but the question I'm simply asking is, is he good enough? I think it's borderline even for that reduced role, and on the evidence of today I think it was demonstrated. The way this dicussion has gone needs mapping out really so we don't get mixed up about who said what.

1. I said there were players in the league much better at doing what Origi does than he is.

2. Someone asked "like who?".

3. I gave a list of players. I thought the question was quite odd as there are really obvious examples, but I answered it anyway.

4. He, you and others said "it's unfair to compare. Origi is younger/less experienced/not a first choice etc".


So there we have it. Don't know what else I'm supposed to say really.



 

Origi is our third choice forward, but the question I'm simply asking is, is he good enough? I think it's borderline even for that reduced role, and on the evidence of today I think it was demonstrated. The way this dicussion has gone needs mapping out really so we don't get mixed up about who said what.

1. I said there were players in the league much better at doing what Origi does than he is.

2. Someone asked "like who?".

3. I gave a list of players. I thought the question was quite odd as there are really obvious examples, but I answered it anyway.

4. He, you and others said "it's unfair to compare. Origi is younger/less experienced/not a first choice etc".


So there we have it. Don't know what else I'm supposed to say really.



 

Fine

But the comparisons you gave were unfair, it's not like Divock is either fully formed version of himself or first choice here like the examples at other clubs you gave

Is he good enough as a 20 year old third choice? Learning  and developing? IMHO yes