Should Klopp Be More Flexible With His Footballing Philosophy?

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

That should be good especially having 2 goalies playing,but would that be ok with the F.A.

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

Sturridge is too slow to fit in that system.

I don't think Clyne is good enough defensively either.

We would also need a stronger CM like Matip next to Hendo.

This is how I think it would work.

                       Migs

       Gomez - Matip - Lovren

Clyne - Hendo - New CM - Milner

        Mane - Firmino - Coutinho

Not sure Clyne offers us much in a more forward role, but that said, he might shine with less defensive duties.

Two words, Winter break. People keep banging on about how Jürgen did things in Germany, how he never bought in Winter, never went route one etc etc. They take Crimbo off there though don't they? Freshen up a bit, recover, heal niggles etc. We don't do that here, the games just keep coming.

We need a bigger squad with more quality (ie kids who aren't ready aren't part of it) and we need alternative ways of winning football matches which don't always include running miles further than the opposition.

In short, not change but adapt.

Was just thinking about something along these lines yesterday. Before the match against Saints, was on the thread saying hoped Jürgen played an attacking team, with a selection that showed we were going for it, that we meant to really go at them and win the game.

Made me think back to Rodgers. There was a lot of PL games we went into I was thinking, well, maybe he might err a little more on the side of caution, before a big game say where a draw might be OK - but (almost) always he sent out the same attacking side and went for it with the same attacking football that was so brilliant to watch. Easy to say he was naive, and maybe more focus on the defensive side might have taken us further - but it might also have taken away from the way we were playing, which the players were obviously enjoying and was working. Maybe with his same philosophy - just with slightly better defenders - we might not have narrowly missed out, we might narrowly have won it. A LOT of if, buts and maybes.

Jürgen has his way of playing, it's worked for him in the past, it can work for him again. At the end of the day though, no matter what philosophy a manager has, he also needs a set of players good enough to get where you want to be. Just think right now we still lacking a bit of quality, and a bit of depth. We got to two finals last year, and played super football earlier this season. Would have slight concern that the high tempo press might leave us with less energy in the closing stages of the season, but that remains to be seen.

In general though, think a manager has to stick to his principles. Tweak them slightly maybe - but football can be over-complicated, the best philosophies  are pretty simple - good players playing a certain way. Everyone buys in. Players, staff, fans. We've seen the change under Jürgen, his way of playing can work, maybe just need to jiggle the player selection sometimes, but in general given time would hope it'll come good

I changed the title to reflect a more flexible nature to how he likes to play the game and not so much a full on change of philosophy.

So are we now saying that one of the top managers in the world doesn't know what he is doing? Lot of prospective managers will be posting I am sure 

Not really mate. Just discussing if a change of formation might better suit the Premier league and players at our disposal.

So are we now saying that one of the top managers in the world doesn't know what he is doing? Lot of prospective managers will be posting I am sure 

It's a f****** joke that. Point me to the thread where that's happening mate, I'll give whoever it is both barrels, f****** idiots.

I think he should stick with his philosophy.

He knows how he wants his team to play, so he is building a footballing identity with the players he has at his disposal.

Our problem is that we are short of quality in certain areas of our XI and with Mane off to AFCON we don't have a recognized winger. Once Mane is back and our attacking trio of Mane-Firmino-Coutinho are fit for the rest of the season then we should be ok.

This summer its crucial we get another winger, a CM (Please let it be Dahoud) and improve our defence with a CB & LB.

...

Rodgers had a similar thread

Two words, Winter break. People keep banging on about how Jürgen did things in Germany, how he never bought in Winter, never went route one etc etc. They take Crimbo off there though don't they? Freshen up a bit, recover, heal niggles etc. We don't do that here, the games just keep coming.

Fair point.

I don't think there was much wrong with our formation - or the fact that we were playing 3 forward players.  I genuinely believe we have suffered with injuries to key players and the lack of a decent sized squad.  You can't take Mane, Coutinho, Henderson and a recovering Lallana out of that team and expect it to look as good.

If we had Mane and Matip for the past month then I believe we'd have collected more Premier League points than we have.

Clyne has more touches in the opposing half than his own - putting him as part of a 3 man central defence is a total non starter for me.  I'd rather have him on the wing and Mane further up than stifle Mane to try and fit Sturridge in.

I really don't see much future for Sturridge at Liverpool.  While he will have the occasional flash of brilliance IMO his best days are behind him now.

I like the new managers signings - I think Wijnaldum has been an improvement, Matip has been an improvement, Mane has been an improvement.  Grujic I've not seen enough of, jury's out on Karius but he's a young lad and if we edge tomorrow night then he will have played a big part in the tie.

We are just missing the 3 or 4 quality additions to the squad but the problem is whether the club are prepared to stump up the £25-£30M a year in wages for them all. 

It's a good topic to discuss Rush but you've not actually given your views on what you believe Jurgens philosophy or tactics are or how going 343 would change them, or if they'd change at all.

In reality the formations are really irrelevant as just changing around where each of the 11 players stand at ko, doesn't imply or equate to a change of philosophy or tactics.  They also vary and change thoughout the course of our games.

For example, the 3 at the back idea, we generally do have 3 at the back when attacking.  Those 3 would be the 2 cbs and the sitting cm but they are also generally a lot higher up the pitch than say Chelsea's 3.  The difference therefore is the "philosophy" of the managers where Conte is defend first, attack second and Jürgen is attack first, defend second. 

So just saying lets go 343 and be defensive would require a totally different mindset or "philosophy" and also different players to the ones we currently have.  To go 343 and be defensive we need to counter attack and none of our attacking players have the pace to do so.  Nor do we have 2 dcms who will protect the 3 and none of our cbs are good at the "low block" defending required to make it work.

If you've opened the thread because you feel he needs to change the philosophy/tactics/formations to help us become harder to beat or better defensively then check out his stats from his Dortmund days, the seasons just before and the seasons of his Title wins.  His philosophy/tactics/formations don't change but the defending stats do.  It took him a couple of years to improve it, both on the training pitch and with players but they got there and became very difficult to beat and even more difficult to score against.

The flexibility thing, being less stubborn, gegenpressing won't work, we've been found out brigade are phrases thought up and propogated by experts, pundits and our rivals fans to console themselves with the hope that he won't replicate his Dortmund success at Liverpool.

Fair point.

I don't think there was much wrong with our formation - or the fact that we were playing 3 forward players.  I genuinely believe we have suffered with injuries to key players and the lack of a decent sized squad.  You can't take Mane, Coutinho, Henderson and a recovering Lallana out of that team and expect it to look as good.

If we had Mane and Matip for the past month then I believe we'd have collected more Premier League points than we have.

Clyne has more touches in the opposing half than his own - putting him as part of a 3 man central defence is a total non starter for me.  I'd rather have him on the wing and Mane further up than stifle Mane to try and fit Sturridge in.

I really don't see much future for Sturridge at Liverpool.  While he will have the occasional flash of brilliance IMO his best days are behind him now.

I like the new managers signings - I think Wijnaldum has been an improvement, Matip has been an improvement, Mane has been an improvement.  Grujic I've not seen enough of, jury's out on Karius but he's a young lad and if we edge tomorrow night then he will have played a big part in the tie.

We are just missing the 3 or 4 quality additions to the squad but the problem is whether the club are prepared to stump up the £25-£30M a year in wages for them all.

It's a good topic to discuss Rush but you've not actually given your views on what you believe Jurgens philosophy or tactics are or how going 343 would change them, or if they'd change at all.

In reality the formations are really irrelevant as just changing around where each of the 11 players stand at ko, doesn't imply or equate to a change of philosophy or tactics.  They also vary and change thoughout the course of our games.

For example, the 3 at the back idea, we generally do have 3 at the back when attacking.  Those 3 would be the 2 cbs and the sitting cm but they are also generally a lot higher up the pitch than say Chelsea's 3.  The difference therefore is the "philosophy" of the managers where Conte is defend first, attack second and Jürgen is attack first, defend second. 

So just saying lets go 343 and be defensive would require a totally different mindset or "philosophy" and also different players to the ones we currently have.  To go 343 and be defensive we need to counter attack and none of our attacking players have the pace to do so.  Nor do we have 2 dcms who will protect the 3 and none of our cbs are good at the "low block" defending required to make it work.

If you've opened the thread because you feel he needs to change the philosophy/tactics/formations to help us become harder to beat or better defensively then check out his stats from his Dortmund days, the seasons just before and the seasons of his Title wins.  His philosophy/tactics/formations don't change but the defending stats do.  It took him a couple of years to improve it, both on the training pitch and with players but they got there and became very difficult to beat and even more difficult to score against.

The flexibility thing, being less stubborn, gegenpressing won't work, we've been found out brigade are phrases thought up and propogated by experts, pundits and our rivals fans to console themselves with the hope that he won't replicate his Dortmund success at Liverpool.

Everything I wanted to say in these 2 posts.
Top work

The question is, should Klopp Be More Flexible With His Footballing Philosophy? My answer is that once he has experienced a whole array of situations in the English game such as; being complacent against lower teams in the league, being 3-1 up against a good footballing team who aren't going to give in - then losing, being 1-0 or 2-1 up with 6 or 7 minutes left and drawing, losing 3-2 after being 2-0 up, losing 2 Cup Finals, losing games early on in the season against promoted sides, once he has a wealth of information and experience to call upon I think he will be flexible and successful. He has only had about 16 months in our game, once he's had another summer transfer window and a bit more experience then we just see the fruits of his philosophy and flexibility.

Just one point that I've not heard in any of the topics, if he took the FA Cup just a little more serious and played say just 3 reserves in the Cup tie v Plymouth at home, the chances are we would have won, that would have given him all last week to prepare for the Swansea game instead of travelling down to Plymouth and back mid-week and I think we could have raced out of the traps at 12.30pm on Saturday.

3 cb's (matip lovren klavan/gomez)
2 dm's (hendo wijnaldum/can)
2 wingbacks playing very high (lallana milner/moreno)
3 up top rotating (firmino/origi coutinho mane)

No AFCON = Matip and Mane available, I'm sure we would have beaten Swansea and Sunderland (5 points extra) and perhaps even Utd and gained 7 points. Imagine if Coutinho and Matip were fit vs Bournemouth, how about if Sakho were around? Possibly another 3 points?

As for us being sussed out, yeah, sure, everyone knows how we play, but they also know how Barca, Chelsea, Spurs, last season Leicester, Real Madrid, Bayern, Dortmund and Juventus play etc. The difference is, they either have a strong squad full of quality cover or been lucky with injury, thus being able to field a strong team week in, week out.

The main problem is the lack of depth in quality as we have been unlucky losing our 3 key players due to injury or AFCON. Then you have Sakho, our 2nd best defender at our club, so one could say 4 key players. So, the problem isn't the formation, nor is it the philosophy, we just needed a bit of luck, and failing that, you need quality players to cover.

That's exactly my point mate, Jugen will know if he needs to change formation or whatever needs doing, if any of us knew what the f*ck we were on about we would managers of top clubs, pointless.

Agreed. But I feel we can still discuss the matter though

Short answer for me is yes.

In general is philosophy is top notch and pre Christmas it was both working a treat and great to watch. But since half time in the city game that's changed.

Its probably a combo of things. Lets be honest losing certain players hasn't helped. But the biggest problem for me which I touched on in the last topic I started is that we just continue in the same approach no matter how the game is going. No change of tactic, formation or player. What I mean by player is for example, Swansea at Anfield Saturday, parked the bus. We needed players who could give us something attacking wise, particularly out wide. Trent A-A for example would have given us that more than Clyne would. Gomez would have given more at carrying the ball out from the back than Klavan. Something that would have created more space for our midfield a times.

Most annoying for me which I pointed out to my 8 year old who I think was afraid of me at this stage was the amount of crosses into the box when we had nobody in there or certainly nobody who was going to win a header. Yet when we had Benteke we wouldn't put any crosses in. Baffling.

In my team for the game tomorrow I opted for 3-4-1-2. The 2 being vital to me, Sturridge needs to be an out and out striker not right or left side and Firmino would be his perfect foil. The 1 being Coutinho. Go and do what you want son free role. And as important as the front 2 the central 2 creating a play maker, Lallana, giving us a cutting edge from the midfield, seeing things and getting into the box from deep. Molby recently called him our iniesta! That can easily become a 3 4 3 a 4 4 2 or a 4 3 3 as the game goes.

So in short I don't think any team can be successful in any sport by putting there faith in just 1 system to see them through and that's why were falling just short a the minute 

It's a good topic to discuss Rush but you've not actually given your views on what you believe Jurgens philosophy or tactics are or how going 343 would change them, or if they'd change at all.

In reality the formations are really irrelevant as just changing around where each of the 11 players stand at ko, doesn't imply or equate to a change of philosophy or tactics.  They also vary and change thoughout the course of our games.

For example, the 3 at the back idea, we generally do have 3 at the back when attacking.  Those 3 would be the 2 cbs and the sitting cm but they are also generally a lot higher up the pitch than say Chelsea's 3.  The difference therefore is the "philosophy" of the managers where Conte is defend first, attack second and Jürgen is attack first, defend second. 

So just saying lets go 343 and be defensive would require a totally different mindset or "philosophy" and also different players to the ones we currently have.  To go 343 and be defensive we need to counter attack and none of our attacking players have the pace to do so.  Nor do we have 2 dcms who will protect the 3 and none of our cbs are good at the "low block" defending required to make it work.

If you've opened the thread because you feel he needs to change the philosophy/tactics/formations to help us become harder to beat or better defensively then check out his stats from his Dortmund days, the seasons just before and the seasons of his Title wins.  His philosophy/tactics/formations don't change but the defending stats do.  It took him a couple of years to improve it, both on the training pitch and with players but they got there and became very difficult to beat and even more difficult to score against.

The flexibility thing, being less stubborn, gegenpressing won't work, we've been found out brigade are phrases thought up and propogated by experts, pundits and our rivals fans to console themselves with the hope that he won't replicate his Dortmund success at Liverpool.

For me, I'm not that bothered with the actual formation, though for the sake of the thread, I'd definitely like to give 3-4-3 a shot, mainly because it freshens things up and it pushes Milner into a more familiar forward role, and Clyne can focus on what he does best, defend, and only worry about getting the ball forward to Mane, when we attack. Henderson the steel in midfield, and Lallana the creative spark alongside looks good too. Studge, Firmino, Couts we all know about. I also like that 3-4-3 is quite flexible and can easily turn into 4-3-3, or 5-3-2 simply by shifting Milner back 20 feet (4-3-3). 5-3-2 with Mane dropping back as an attacking wingback with Milner doing the same, and shifting Couts back into midfield alongside Henderson and Lallana is, whilst more of a stretch, definitely possible.

I also do not think Klopp's high tempo pressing style will be sustainable for the entire Prem season what with 38 games, two cups, and a possible third cup (champions league) next season. The prem is tough, physical, and fast paced for the most part, and the games come thick and fast. Perhaps a less 'up and at em' philosophy and a more energy efficient mindset will serves us better. I suppose we'll know much more come May. Four bodies in midfield would help us gain more of a footing from which to launch our attacks, or indeed press. We'll have less ground to cover with 4 in the middle of the park. That's the theory at least.

Klopp said he'd like heavy metal football, and whilst we shouldn't think that means hammering at the opposition for 90 minutes, I think it does give a little insight into how Klopp thinks. I wouldn't want his philosophy to be more defensive than attack though, I'd like to keep us on the front foot as it were, but I think how we go about that might need reigning in somehow. For me, I've been saying we've looked leggy for about the last 3 games now, and the game against Swansea I saw little to no pressing. Then again, I saw precious little of anything (other than Firmino). This might be due to no Mane and Matip, or it might be indicative of something more serious.

...

Rodgers had a similar thread

Was thinking the exact same thing. Put the knives away lads were doing way better than expected this season anyone who says were not is f***in delusional. We finished 8th last season in case anyone forgot   

Go old fashioned a two strikers up front - Origi and Sturridge. Worked well in our league cup match against Tottenham which we should have won more comfortably. Both players played off each other well and looked to be the alternative should any of our front line get (ie Coutinho/Mane) get injured.

For me, I'm not that bothered with the actual formation, though for the sake of the thread, I'd definitely like to give 3-4-3 a shot, mainly because it freshens things up and it pushes Milner into a more familiar forward role, and Clyne can focus on what he does best, defend, and only worry about getting the ball forward to Mane, when we attack. Henderson the steel in midfield, and Lallana the creative spark alongside looks good too. Studge, Firmino, Couts we all know about. I also like that 3-4-3 is quite flexible and can easily turn into 4-3-3, or 5-3-2 simply by shifting Milner back 20 feet (4-3-3). 5-3-2 with Mane dropping back as an attacking wingback with Milner doing the same, and shifting Couts back into midfield alongside Henderson and Lallana is, whilst more of a stretch, definitely possible.

I also do not think Klopp's high tempo pressing style will be sustainable for the entire Prem season what with 38 games, two cups, and a possible third cup (champions league) next season. The prem is tough, physical, and fast paced for the most part, and the games come thick and fast. Perhaps a less 'up and at em' philosophy and a more energy efficient mindset will serves us better. I suppose we'll know much more come May. Four bodies in midfield would help us gain more of a footing from which to launch our attacks, or indeed press. We'll have less ground to cover with 4 in the middle of the park. That's the theory at least.

Klopp said he'd like heavy metal football, and whilst we shouldn't think that means hammering at the opposition for 90 minutes, I think it does give a little insight into how Klopp thinks. I wouldn't want his philosophy to be more defensive than attack though, I'd like to keep us on the front foot as it were, but I think how we go about that might need reigning in somehow. For me, I've been saying we've looked leggy for about the last 3 games now, and the game against Swansea I saw little to no pressing. Then again, I saw precious little of anything (other than Firmino). This might be due to no Mane and Matip, or it might be indicative of something more serious.

My brains hurting a bit so bear with me.

The first sentence is exactly what I said in my first post.  The formation or starting positions don't matter as it's constantly changing depending on what's happening in the game.

Milner higher up the pitch??  How much higher up do you want him mate?  He's virtually camped in the oppositions final 3rd as it is, he won't/can't get any further forward playing in midfield.  Something which he's already said himself in a recent interview about playing as a LB for Jürgen.

This bit will be controversial but I'm not sure Clyne could defend in a 3?  He doesn't stop crosses, he's not tall enough to win headers, he's crap at the far post but he's quick and tackles well.

Mane already does his fair share of defensive work but you're keeping him further away from goal having him in midfield so you're nullifying his strengths.

Hendo and Lallana are already doing what you want them to be doing so no change there either, except again Lallana will be further away from goal.

Jurgens high tempo pressing versus a less up n at em philosophy?  Have you watched how slow and labourious we've been playing since we lost our mojo?  People hate it, we look like sh*t and it's ineffective as the last few performances and results have shown.

As for whether it's possible to maintain the gegenpress, we don't know yet because we've had to change how we play for the last few weeks but he probably preempted that possibility by bringing in the new fitness, conditioning and nutritian people.

We have changed how we play recently, trying to counteract the bus parkers without our regular starters.  We've started playing from the wings more and using crosses more to get in behind the packed defenses because we've been missing both Lallana in midfield, Coutinho on the left and Firmino through the middle where the gegenpress, quick transitions and fluid attacks were working perfectly fine against those bus parkers earlier in the season.

Still it's a good topic mate.

The problem with the gegenpress (if there is one) isn't just that our players are running out of gas, it's also that teams aren't allowing us to do it because they simply don't try and play in their own half. I'm a little surprised more people aren't picking up on this, to me it's as clear as the nose on your face. Teams are literally giving us the ball (in our half) and retreating to the edge of their own box, before saying "go on then, lets see what you can do". Unfortunately for us, the answer is not very much. We work it wide via slow passing from side to side, cross it, see it headed out as we don't have a header of the ball (I know Firmino got one on the weekend but generally we don't), then when it comes out we go through the whole rigmarole again.

The unfortunate truth for us is that if teams don't play with the ball in their own half, and they don't commit large numbers forward so they can get caught on the break, we very quickly run out of ideas. I don't follow football overseas, but my guess would be that in Jurgens last season at Dortmund teams played in exactly the same way against them that Swansea, Plymouth etc did to us. You have to have a "well if you do that we'll do this" option, be it going 4-4-2, going more direct or whatever it is. If you approach every game in exactly the same way, sooner or later teams will counter it. I'm afraid to say it but that's what's happening.     

And as far as footballing philosophy goes with squad building, given we don't have a winter break it is suicide to approach a season with a squad as weak as ours was. It's bonkers to give yourself a self inflicted handicap, nobody gives prizes out at the end of the season for having a negative NET spend or low wages to turnover ratios. It was very silly to try and do it before the season started, it's been even more daft not to invest the minute the January window opened. If you can't get your number one pick, get your number two pick, if not him your number three etc etc.

If we win the league in three years time it won't mean Jürgen was "right all along" not to have invested this season. We really could have had a good go this time, we had it in us, if we fail even to mount a challenge in the end it'll be precisely for this reason. 

The problem with the gegenpress (if there is one) isn't just that our players are running out of gas, it's also that teams aren't allowing us to do it because they simply don't try and play in their own half. I'm a little surprised more people aren't picking up on this, to me it's as clear as the nose on your face.

I've definitely noticed it

I've commentated on it a couple of times. Saying how teams just give us the ball, and then there's nothing to press because we have the possession. Then, all they do, is bide their time, wait for a chance, and with us you'll inevitably get a great chance, and try to hit us in a smash and grab.

Lots of focus on the way we attack in this thread but i would like to have seen Jürgen adjust our formation/personnel at times in a game to change the way we defend. Against united they didn't just hoof it up front, they caused us a lot of problems from wide areas with two on ones and umpteen crosses coming into the box. I couldn't quite believe I was saying it but I would have like to have seen us switch to a midfield four with Moreno coming on to play LM to nullify the threat. It's easy to focus on our attacking play particularly as the goals have dried up in recent games but if we did a better job defensively it would be much less of an issue.

With regards to our attacking threat I think we need to upgrade at the centre-forward position. Teams would think twice about dropping off quite so far if it meant more touches in the box for a top top striker. He needs to be a tricky player with good movement and the ability to create in tight areas. Studge of three years ago would do nicely but unfortunately the player we have now is a shadow of what he used to be. Firmino is doing alright up there, his work rate is incredible and he has chipped in with some good goals but he is a bit too workmanlike to hold the shirt long-term. Also, it's clear how much we are missing Mane, when defences drop off like they do in banks of 4-5 you need a player to break the lines and pull them out of shape. We need another Mane.

With regards to playing three at the back as per the opening post, to be honest, when we've got the ball our shape is three at the back. Would it be better defensively? Yeah maybe, it wouldn't be that hard would it and you can see the difference it has made at Chelsea but Conte preaches three at the back and I believe he has for a number of years. It takes a lot of coaching and particularly for the three defenders there is a bit of re-wiring to be done.

I've definitely noticed it

I've commentated on it a couple of times. Saying how teams just give us the ball, and then there's nothing to press because we have the possession. Then, all they do, is bide their time, wait for a chance, and with us you'll inevitably get a great chance, and try to hit us in a smash and grab.

Prior to Mane leaving for the AFCON that wasn't a problem because we had the pace and talent to punish them for it. Remember, the press is used to harass the opposition off the ball when they have it, the rest of the time we attack. What's happened is that since Mane's departure, we've not only lacked the pace to get in behind teams, but we've become incredibly sloppy in passing. That was evident against both United and Swansea. The reason this has come about is because Klopp has moved Lallana up to the front three were he's nowhere near as effective and disrupts the balance of the team. Against Swansea, for example, we only started to play well when he brought Sturridge on and moved Lallana back but by that time the damage had been done. 

And as far as footballing philosophy goes with squad building, given we don't have a winter break it is suicide to approach a season with a squad as weak as ours was. It's bonkers to give yourself a self inflicted handicap, nobody gives prizes out at the end of the season for having a negative NET spend or low wages to turnover ratios. It was very silly to try and do it before the season started, it's been even more daft not to invest the minute the January window opened. If you can't get your number one pick, get your number two pick, if not him your number three etc etc.

If we win the league in three years time it won't mean Jürgen was "right all along" not to have invested this season. We really could have had a good go this time, we had it in us, if we fail even to mount a challenge in the end it'll be precisely for this reason. 

Squad:

GK - Karius
GK - Mignolet
GK - Manninger

RB - Clyne
RB - TAA

CB - Matip
CB - Lovren
CB - Sakho
CB - Gomez
CB - Klavan
CB - Lucas*

LB - Milner
LB - Moreno

CM - Wijnaldum
CM - Henderson
CM - Can
CM - Grujic
CM - Stewart
CM - Lucas*

AM - Lallana
AM - Coutinho
AM - Mane

ST - Firmino
ST - Origi
ST - Sturridge
ST - Ings


That's a squad of 25 with just 1 youth player selected, no Ejaria, Ojo, Brannagan, Woodburn etc. It's very silly to label that as bonkers.

Squad:

GK - Karius
GK - Mignolet
GK - Manninger

RB - Clyne
RB - TAA

CB - Matip
CB - Lovren
CB - Sakho
CB - Gomez
CB - Klavan
CB - Lucas*

LB - Milner
LB - Moreno

CM - Wijnaldum
CM - Henderson
CM - Can
CM - Grujic
CM - Stewart
CM - Lucas*

AM - Lallana
AM - Coutinho
AM - Mane

ST - Firmino
ST - Origi
ST - Sturridge
ST - Ings


That's a squad of 25 with just 1 youth player selected, no Ejaria, Ojo, Brannagan, Woodburn etc. It's very silly to label that as bonkers.

Jesus Luke you do talk bollocks sometimes. Lets SENSIBLY look at it, stripping away the silliness:

Goalkeeper: We ended last season with one (Mignolet). Pretty much everyone agreed he was short of being up to standard. We brought in a KID from Germany who we paid 5 million quid for, and a 39 year old coach/back up (who your laughably now including in the squad). Now you might be surprised that Karius hasn't so far worked out, or than Manninger hasn't so far provided the answer between the sticks or made his LFC debut, but I aren't, not even a little bit. We should IMHO have brought in a proper goalkeeper.

Full-backs: We ended last season with a top class right back (Clyne) and a left back who pretty much everyone agrees is useless. We didn't bring in a right back to cover, we decided instead to rely on a kid (TAA) who at that point hadn't made his Premiership debut. He might end up being a good player TAA, but he is IMHO a long way short of being good enough as of now (and was even less so then). At left back, we decided not to bring any cover in at all, but to rely on a right footed midfielder. Fortunately he's a great player and it's worked out, cross everything he doesn't get injured.

Central defenders: We ended last season with two very good ones (Lovren and Sakho) and one average stand in (Lucas). We f***** Sakho off (rightly in my opinion) and brought in a player who isn't as good (Karius), BUT we also signed Matip, who when he's fit is a quality centre half. Lovren (when he's fit) is also a quality centre half, on the odd occasion they're both fit, we're sorted. Gomez was already long term injured and there was/is no way of knowing how he'd come back, not from a cruciate.

Midfielders: We ended last season with Henderson and Can as potential regular first team midfielders who Jürgen wanted to keep. Lucas can always do a job as a holder for a game or two, and Jürgen brought in a KID from Serbia (Grujic), had a 23yo of his own who isn't ever IMHO going to be good enough (Stewart) and also bought in Wijnaldum.

Attacking midfielders: Jürgen had Lallana and Coutinho who are both quality, and brought in Mane who is also excellent.

Strikers: We had Ings who was/is again long term injured (it happens when they come back, you never know), Sturridge who's an injury waiting to happen and who he doesn't fancy anyway, and an extremely raw Origi, and Firmino.



So being serious, this is what we're left with as sensible options, leaving out Grujic, Manninger, Ings etc:


1. Karius/Mignolet (neither are good enough. We KNOW this, but we carry on regardless).

2. Clyne - please stay fit, back up not up to it yet (TAA).

3. Milner - please stay fit, back up will never be up to it (Moreno).

4. Matip - please stay fit, back ups pretty average (Lucas, Klavan).

5. Lovren - see above.

6. Henderson - It'd be handy if you could stay fit. Back ups (Stewart and Lucas) a significant step down.

7. Wijnaldum - Pretty handy if you stay fit too. (Stewart and Lucas in this role a mile behind), we can though possibly shove lallana in there if all else fails.

8. Can - see above.

9. Mane - As you're the only one who has pace, don't be injured or go and play in any international tournaments. (I know)

10. Coutinho - As you're our best player, try and stay fit. If you can't, and if Lallana isn't already covering for a midfielder, then we might be able to get by.

11. Firmino - As the options to replace you are a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway, or a big raw kid up top, try and stay fit.


That's the ACTUAL, realistic squad: Mignolet , KARIUS, Clyne , TAA, Lovren , Matip [/b], Klavan , Lucas , Milner , MORENO, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can, GRUJIC, STEWART, Lallana, Coutinho, Mane, Firmino, Sturridge, Origi. The ones in capitals are barely squad players in name only as of now. Some will never ever be good enough, others may one day make the step. If you think that squad is the best we could do, then IMHO you're living in cloud cuckoo land.   



   

Do I think Klopp should be more flexible with his approach?

That would suggest he isn't which I don't believe he is, nor any top managers aren't flexible either, they'd get found out far too easily if they stuck to one simple overriding style

i think all managers have a view on how the game is approached, if you look at Jürgen for example he believes that football is an entertainment game, as to be fair so did Rodgers, they both saw the game as something to be won rather than something to avoid defeat first
If you compare that to say both Rafa and Gerard Houllier then they are fundamentally defensive coaches or certainly coaches that see a solid defence as the first thing to achieve and try to win the game in moments, rather than say Jürgen who believes that we should win the game on the front foot.

Within that mindset all those managers have varieties on the theme they set.

If you look at a Rafa or Houllierside, they werent sides  packed with with flair, they were solid at the back, the defenders defend first, they for the most part two defensive midfielders, solid workmanlike wid players, often not even wingers or traditional wide midfielders, and then those players fed the two or three in the team with the licence to win it for us.

Brendan and Jürgen think the other way, they think that football should be a front foot game, that they fit flair into it as much as possible.. They attack with numbers which is why both will never have defensive records like a Rafa or Houllier side. We don't have poor defenders now, we didn't under Rodgers, but the mentality leaves the CBS exposed, it leaves us open to a counter and makes us look poor defensively

Look at Lovren at Southampton, surrounded by a defensive mindset for the most part, a team that will sit in and keep it compact around them, that plays counter attacking football themselves and that doesn't let players get at him often.. Here he is often left exposed with just his CB partner and maybe Hendo in front of them with players running at them at pace.
That's the key there, a defender, and we look panicky when players run at us, but they don't like it and they get rash or jittery because of it because they dont have the pace most of the time to live with these quick forwards, it makes them look poorer than they are. If we are playing on the front foot, probing with most of our team attacking and it breaks down and because the team is all attacking naturally the defensive line is higher, then we get broken on with only three back? It's not that they are poor defenders, it's because they are exposed. I actually think Van Dyke would look just the same in the situation.

In Klopps ideal world teams take us on toe to toe but we know, and he's finding out that 75% of teams in this league won't do that, so they sit in and the longer the game goes on at 0-0 the better for them, they have no intention of coming out. But it's not in Jurgens nature to go well if you do that we'll do that do to make sure we aren't susceptible to the counter.. The game would be awful viewing and we wouldn't want to see it and Jürgen wouldn't want to either watch that himself or make us watch it, it's against his approach. And frankly is no good for the game

We can't gagenpress against teams that have that approach against us and I think Klopp obviously knows that, I don't think for the most part we do it unless a team, which is most often the bigger teams come out more against us, so I think he has adapted, but I still think he's ironing it out as an approach, and I also think he's changing the mentality of the players here who aren't used to winning 4 out of 5 games throughout the season, we haven't done that for ten years nearly if not longer..

I think the way he brought this summer wasn't necessarily to press from ten front but to prepare for teams sitting in.
When he signed Winjaldum, we all thought for the front three or as a ten.. But Klopp wanted him in midfield because he's a player used to playing higher up it would allow his midfield to play 20yards further forward, dropping Lallana into midfield was the same thought as was playing Hendo as the 6.. All to get us higher up the pitch and be comfortable working and recycling the ball.. Having a front three of Coutinho, Mane and Firmino in front of them.. Having the full backs high up.. It was to pin them in and play higher up.. To move the ball to work a deep block, all quick and comfortable in possession

The mistake I think hes made in recent weeks, which has really only been on the back of injuries and the AFCON is that he's come away from it a bit, he's moved Lallana back into the front three, therefore creating two changes rather than one, bringing in a Can who sits deeper naturally and can't recycle the ball quicker..
We aren't moving it quick enough now, it's not just natural leg pace we are lacking currently it's quick possession of the ball, quick passing, sharp movement

He's learning the league all the time and I think this spell will help long term as he will know what type of additions he needs to make to th squad to help us break down this type of approach from the opposition. But you can bet your last quid that most opponents won't change their approach and for the most part Jurgens approach against them this season has worked, it's just a few injuries and the AFCON have affected what we are doing.

Do I think he should be flexible with his philosophy? No not his philosophy because that makes him the manager he is, and it's why people love him and his approach.

Do I think he should maybe alter a system slightly but still with the same philosophy? Yeah maybe so, but it's player led, in terms of who he has this disposal, and injuries have tied his hands a little bit in that over recent weeks. We could do with a bit stronger depth in my opinion and his philosophy is just fine

Jürgen has shown a different approach in the City game for example, but it wasn't a defensive showing, it was still front foot if you watch it back, in terms of where the lines start on the pitch.

What I will say is that I love any style of football, I love Kenny in the 80s, I loved Roy Evans approach.. I loved the defensive chess styles of Rafa and Gerard.. And I love front foot balls out stuff.. But we can't long for something else in the moment.. Just enjoy it

What I will say is that I love any style of football, I love Kenny in the 80s, I loved Roy Evans approach.. I loved the defensive chess styles of Rafa and Gerard.. And I love front foot balls out stuff.. But we can't long for something else in the moment.. Just enjoy it

I think we are capable of winning the league...a couple more real quality players I think we are even more capable of winning the league.

I believe that LFC, United, City, Chelsea, Spurs & Arsenal are all capable of winning the league in any given year, that being said on any given year each club has a 1:6 chance of winning the league.

If one is to base enjoyment of the game off of only winning the league chances are more often than not most supporters of the above mentioned clubs are going to me miserable.

Personally I think we will see the day when we lift the trophy but in the meantime I am thoroughly enjoying watching us play the past 18 months or so and long may it continue.

Jesus Luke you do talk bollocks sometimes. Lets SENSIBLY look at it, stripping away the silliness:

Bollocks by listing the actual squad and showing up your silly tantrum and poor attempt at defending your 'romantic' comments earlier in the season? No Mick, what's happening is your true colours showing. First sign of a bump in the road and you're all over it, talk about mouth foam you must be swimming in the stuff.

This for example:

1. Karius/Mignolet (neither are good enough. We KNOW this, but we carry on regardless).

2. Clyne - please stay fit, back up not up to it yet (TAA).

3. Milner - please stay fit, back up will never be up to it (Moreno).

4. Matip - please stay fit, back ups pretty average (Lucas, Klavan).

5. Lovren - see above.

6. Henderson - It'd be handy if you could stay fit. Back ups (Stewart and Lucas) a significant step down.

7. Wijnaldum - Pretty handy if you stay fit too. (Stewart and Lucas in this role a mile behind), we can though possibly shove lallana in there if all else fails.

8. Can - see above.

9. Mane - As you're the only one who has pace, don't be injured or go and play in any international tournaments. (I know)

10. Coutinho - As you're our best player, try and stay fit. If you can't, and if Lallana isn't already covering for a midfielder, then we might be able to get by.

11. Firmino - As the options to replace you are a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway, or a big raw kid up top, try and stay fit.


That's the ACTUAL, realistic squad: Mignolet , KARIUS, Clyne , TAA, Lovren , Matip [/b], Klavan , Lucas , Milner , MORENO, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can,  GRUJIC, STEWART, Lallana, Coutinho, Mane, Firmino, Sturridge, Origi. The ones in capitals are barely squad players in name only as of now. Some will never ever be good enough, others may one day make the step. If you think that squad is the best we could do, then IMHO you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

is so ridiculous I'm astonished you clicked 'post'.

Just for the cherries on the cake you label Sturridge "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." This is a player you didn't rate to begin with, now have decided is "the best natural finisher in the league and clearly world class." Yet you dismiss him in this summary by "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." hypocrisy is a word you use so often and we've got to discuss "seriously" when you're reduced to this?

You've put KARIUS in capitals, a lad that's played 10 games for us, many of which were clean sheets and in his most recent looked really good but of course it doesn't fit your agenda to understand that we paid his release clause and he was indeed highly rated and well experienced before he came. No he's just some no mark that only cost blah blah.... (again this is your serious dismissal of a player)

TAA a player clearly rated highly by Klopp but rather than trust him and watch him develop him into a real talent in your opinion he's not worthy of a squad place. Let's not trust the manager that you've also stated is one of the best in the world to develop talent (his main asset) but instead mock him for giving a promising youth player squad status.

Finally Grujic in caps! He's played 2 games for us after an extremely promising preseason. Should we have known he'd be injured and not given him a squad place, seriously?!

You're becoming unhinged Mick, seriously.

Here is my issue with Klopp (as another poster pointed out the other day).

If he knew Mane was leaving in January, if he knew teams don't like selling their players in January (I think he's gone on record as all but saying he really dislikes the January transfer window and can't wait for Jan 31st), and even though we bought Mane in the summer, why did he not show initiative and buy some back up as well? Can't get Pulisic, Draxler, Brandt, Promes, or Adama Traore in January? Then get one of them in the summer.

Perhaps we should ask should Klopp be more flexible in the transfer market? For whatever reason, we always seem to make real heavy work of buying players. It was bad enough under Rodgers with the transfer committee, but now when it seems that transfer committee is taking more of a back seat, it seems our current manager is perhaps too fussy.

That and persisting with Can.

Here is my issue with Klopp (as another poster pointed out the other day).

If he knew Mane was leaving in January, if he knew teams don't like selling their players in January (I think he's gone on record as all but saying he really dislikes the January transfer window and can't wait for Jan 31st), and even though we bought Mane in the summer, why did he not show initiative and buy some back up as well? Can't get Pulisic, Draxler, Brandt, Promes, or Adama Traore in January? Then get one of them in the summer.

Perhaps we should ask should Klopp be more flexible in the transfer market? For whatever reason, we always seem to make real heavy work of buying players. It was bad enough under Rodgers with the transfer committee, but now when it seems that transfer committee is taking more of a back seat, it seems our current manager is perhaps too fussy.

That and persisting with Can.

We did bid for Pulisic in the summer , they turned it down

He tried but in fairness we did a lot of work on the squad in the summer and maybe in fairness it was as much as could be done

                                   BIG FAT YES !

Bollocks by listing the actual squad and showing up your silly tantrum and poor attempt at defending your 'romantic' comments earlier in the season? No Mick, what's happening is your true colours showing. First sign of a bump in the road and you're all over it, talk about mouth foam you must be swimming in the stuff.

This for example:

is so ridiculous I'm astonished you clicked 'post'.

Just for the cherries on the cake you label Sturridge "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." This is a player you didn't rate to begin with, now have decided is "the best natural finisher in the league and clearly world class." Yet you dismiss him in this summary by "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." hypocrisy is a word you use so often and we've got to discuss "seriously" when you're reduced to this?

You've put KARIUS in capitals, a lad that's played 10 games for us, many of which were clean sheets and in his most recent looked really good but of course it doesn't fit your agenda to understand that we paid his release clause and he was indeed highly rated and well experienced before he came. No he's just some no mark that only cost blah blah.... (again this is your serious dismissal of a player)

TAA a player clearly rated highly by Klopp but rather than trust him and watch him develop him into a real talent in your opinion he's not worthy of a squad place. Let's not trust the manager that you've also stated is one of the best in the world to develop talent (his main asset) but instead mock him for giving a promising youth player squad status.

Finally Grujic in caps! He's played 2 games for us after an extremely promising preseason. Should we have known he'd be injured and not given him a squad place, seriously?!

You're becoming unhinged Mick, seriously.

Luke, I get that it's forum banter and everybody wants to be seen to be right, but why lie? Why put something in quotes that suggests I've said it when you KNOW I haven't? Why pretend that I've changed my mind from a player I rate highly, always have, always say so and would put in the team on a regular basis, to now saying I don't rate him?

The "we" I referred to in my post was Jürgen not me (as he clearly DOESN'T fancy him), but you knew that. You're not a numpty mate, neither are you normally a liar so don't stoop simply to try and win an Internet argument.

All that aside, the issue we have run into is twofold and I believe was forseeable a while ago (it must have been because quite a few of us on here saw it coming). The issues are:

1. When one of our first choice eleven (who are a bloody good side in fairness) are unavailable, the replacements are not often enough up to it. On occasions we don't have a credible like for like replacement (Mane, Milner, Clyne, Henderson) and at other times those that step in are only capable of doing so for short periods (Klavan, Lucas, Stewart etc).

2. We don't have anybody off the bench who can change up the way we play or offer something radically different.


Jürgen has done an incredible job to get this team within touching distance of the top of the league by Christmas, but these two shortcomings are beginning to hurt us now.

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

For me it always comes down to quality. The system can always be tinkered with and players can be asked to adapt their role in certain games ( even some of the best teams just hoof it in there when all else seems lost ) but if you havn't got quality players it all gets found out.

The amount of times our players (Clyne  & Milner ) get into great positions to cross but waste the chance completely is maddening. We are terrible at set piece's , we are poor clean tacklers of the ball , poor headers of the ball . Generally.

Nothing wrong with trying something new ( i'm all for that ) but without Footballers who can adapt to situations that arise in a match , by thinking for themselves , our play will stutter and tail off.

We need a great spine of a team , we have not one great player in our spine so we always seem to have problems that rotate. The Keeper is the problem , then it's the CB's , then the Midfield is to static , then we have no width ....... and on , and on.

Changing a system with quality players can have a huge effect ( Look at Chelsea ) i'm not so sure  with players with limited ability.

Luke, I get that it's forum banter and everybody wants to be seen to be right, but why lie? Why put something in quotes that suggests I've said it when you KNOW I haven't? Why pretend that I've changed my mind from a player I rate highly, always have, always say so and would put in the team on a regular basis, to now saying I don't rate him?

The "we" I referred to in my post was Jürgen not me (as he clearly DOESN'T fancy him), but you knew that. You're not a numpty mate, neither are you normally a liar so don't stoop simply to try and win an Internet argument.

Mick I remember distinctly that you had massive issues with him and weren't even convinced we should buy him! I remember this because I was one of, if not the biggest Sturridge fan at the time and was 100% for the signing. All I heard from your side was that you'd heard from some lads at the pub that he's a bit brainless in terms of football and basically selfish or words to that effect and he's also got attitude problems. You seemed especially sold on the attitude problems as I remember, so unless all this happened in an incredibly vivid dream then I've no idea where you think I'm lying?

As for the "we", yes I knew how you were using it, you were using it to over-emphasise the squad short comings which was completely disingenuous. You can't disagree with Jürgen about squad depth, basically call him suicidal in his approach, bonkers and whatever other terms you chose and then suddenly impose your belief of Jürgen's opinion and ignore your own in summary. From everything Jürgen has said he rates Sturridge, listen to him talk and he talks incredibly highly of him, just because he isn't starting games doesn't mean he isn't rated or even close. For a similar example listen to how he describes Lucas as the best defensive midfielder we have, he doesn't start either, hence the fact that the depth is there or certainly a lot stronger than how you're now describing it.

The quote you're looking for was after talking to one of the guys at Chelsea (a lot use the pub, Jodie Morris, Frank Arnesen used to, couple of backroom people etc). The guy said to me that Sturridge was "a waste of time" and that his attitude "stunk". That's not some opinion formed out of nothing, the bloke who told me that had at the time been watching Sturridge train every week for a couple of years. I (as I do from time to time when I hear stuff), relayed it to the forum.

Of course once he arrived at Liverpool his class as a player (he scored on his debut and very heavily immediately) was obvious, as was the mutual respect between him and Rodgers. Rodgers even adjusted his methodology in order to get both Suarez and Sturridge into the team, a move which was fairly obvious but still spectacularly successful. I've rated him very highly ever since he arrived and have often stated that he should play more, to pretend I don't rate him is not telling the truth. It is the truth that I had reservations about his attitude (who didn't?).

As for now, Jürgen can say till he's blue in the face that he rates Sturridge, but actions speak louder than words. He used to say the same about Benteke and didn't play him either. Stop being silly and trying to bend the obvious truth mate, you're better than that.   

Mick I remember distinctly that you had massive issues with him and weren't even convinced we should buy him! I remember this because I was one of, if not the biggest Sturridge fan at the time and was 100% for the signing. All I heard from your side was that you'd heard from some lads at the pub that he's a bit brainless in terms of football and basically selfish or words to that effect and he's also got attitude problems. You seemed especially sold on the attitude problems as I remember, so unless all this happened in an incredibly vivid dream then I've no idea where you think I'm lying?

As for the "we", yes I knew how you were using it, you were using it to over-emphasise the squad short comings which was completely disingenuous. You can't disagree with Jürgen about squad depth, basically call him suicidal in his approach, bonkers and whatever other terms you chose and then suddenly impose your belief of Jürgen's opinion and ignore your own in summary. From everything Jürgen has said he rates Sturridge, listen to him talk and he talks incredibly highly of him, just because he isn't starting games doesn't mean he isn't rated or even close. For a similar example listen to how he describes Lucas as the best defensive midfielder we have, he doesn't start either, hence the fact that the depth is there or certainly a lot stronger than how you're now describing it.

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Good post.

I think recently we have been too slow and ponderous on the ball. Before Xmas when we were flying we were very very direct, got to ball back and all broke forward. I don't see that happening at the moment, we win the call back and the man in possession has no options.

Whether that's intentional or not I don't know, but that fast, direct footbal served us very well under Brendan's 'nearly' season and has served us well thus far this season (in the main).

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Spot on.

From everything Jürgen has said he rates Sturridge, listen to him talk and he talks incredibly highly of him, just because he isn't starting games doesn't mean he isn't rated or even close.

He said the same about Benteke before he fu**ed him off and Mignolet before he brought Karius in and dropped Mig.

Wouldn't read too much in to what he says about players who are clearly struggling under him.

He said the same about Benteke before he fu**ed him off and Mignolet before he brought Karius in and dropped Mig.

Wouldn't read too much in to what he says about players who are clearly struggling under him.

This include Coutinho,Mane,Milner,Hendo,Matip,Frimino? Because he rates them Highly

I think recently we have been too slow and ponderous on the ball. Before Xmas when we were flying we were very very direct, got to ball back and all broke forward. I don't see that happening at the moment, we win the call back and the man in possession has no options. 

You've noticed that too!

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Was I saying we had strength in depth for all areas? No.

I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a "suicidal approach" or "bonkers" for going into the season with that squad.

I think what was done in the summer was the first, rather large step in assembling a strong squad and I listed each player that was in the squad and gave them the benefit of what Jürgen clearly had in mind. For instance dismissing Karius as being not good enough is firstly looked at with the benefit of hindsight, secondly far too early to judge and ridiculing it for the cost was unfair because it was a release clause. Jürgen bought him clearly to start now if he fails then I'd give Jürgen a second chance at getting it right but saying the player was never good enough to be in the squad, for all above reasons is ridiculous.

I actually believe right now in the goal keeping area we have the strongest competition we've had since FSG arrived (clearly ignoring the time in the summer Reina was here with Mignolet as they never truly competed for the same spot.)

Next you move on to the brain dead left back and this is the only area in the squad that I give Jürgen the benefit of missing his targets. It was clear in the summer we went for 2 and never got either. Where Jürgen isn't getting the credit he deserves is in converting Milner. Most people thought this was a crazy move, I certainly thought it was a little nuts to be honest but right now I'm more than happy with Milner's defending and in fact am more at odds with his attacking contributions (outside of his awesome penalties). As a back up I tend to agree Moreno wont be good enough long term but we should have cover there in Klavan/Gomez who have both played there also, so it wasn't as if he is the only option.

Next you move on to "an ageing midfielder", for a defensive midfielder Lucas is not really that old having only this month turn 30. We had Gerrard playing this role much older and he also struggled with mobility. As a back up, or for coming on late in games Lucas is a sound option, simple as that really, the case for him has been made time and again.

In terms of your "untested kid" well at some point you've either got to develop these kids and put some trust in them or you're never actually going to bear the fruits of an academy. We might as well f**k it all off if we're never going to step them up. Jürgen and Pepjin speak in incredibly glowing terms about TAA and it's clear to see why, he's got massive potential and I'm more than happy to trust Jürgen's judgement on this one considering he develops players all the time. Secondly to this we have Clyne in front of him, a player with a very good injury record (touch wood) so the 'gamble' here was hardly putting our season at risk. Considering in the past we've played the likes of Raheem Stering back there then TAA as the back up should look reasonable.

Your attention is then drawn to Can. Well I tend to agree that Jürgen has a soft spot with Can but at the end of last season he was producing great form so it's hardly surprising, given his age, that Jürgen would expect him to progress this year too. If he's regressed then this needs addressing but again that, for me, is a point made with far too much hindsight. At the start of the year I didn't hear too many calling Can an issue and more were actually excited how he'd progress.

Sturridge is the one that seems to be getting most attention and I think it's clear, much like Benteke as Dave highlights, Jürgen rates him but doesn't see him fitting in his current system. Off the bench though he does and in cup games you'd like to think that Sturridge would be excellent back-up. As a point of weakness in the sqaud if we're really highlighting Sturridge as that then I think we've gone beyond the ridiculous into some other realm of reality.

This include Coutinho,Mane,Milner,Hendo,Matip,Frimino? Because he rates them Highly

Are they struggling under him or have they been?

Was I saying we had strength in depth for all areas? No.

I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a "suicidal approach" or "bonkers" for going into the season with that squad.

I think what was done in the summer was the first, rather large step in assembling a strong squad and I a listed each player that was in the squad and bought the benefit of what Jürgen clearly had in mind. For instance dismissing Karius as being not good enough is firstly looked at with the benefit of hindsight, secondly far too early to judge and ridiculing it for the cost was unfair because it was a release clause. Jürgen bought him clearly to start now if he fails then I'd give Jürgen a second chance at getting it right but saying the player was never good enough to be in the squad, for all above reasons is ridiculous.

I actually believe right now in the goal keeping area we have the strongest competition we've had since FSG arrived (clearly ignoring the time in the summer Reina was here with Mignolet as they never truly competed for the same spot.)

Next you move on to the brain dead left back and this is the only area in the squad that I give Jürgen the benefit of missing his targets. It was clear in the summer we went for 2 and never got either. Where Jürgen isn't getting the credit he deserves is in converting Milner. Most people thought this was a crazy move, I certainly thought it was a little nuts to be honest but right now I'm more than happy with Milner's defending and in fact am more at odds with his attacking contributions (outside of his awesome penalties). As a back up I tend to agree Moreno wont be good enough long term but we should have cover there in Klavan/Gomez who have both played there also, so it wasn't as if he is the only option.

Next you move on to "an ageing midfielder", for a defensive midfielder Lucas is not really that old having only this month turn 30. We had Gerrard playing this role much older and he also struggled with mobility. As a back up, or for coming on late in games Lucas is a sound option, simple as that really, the case for him has been made time and again.

In terms of your "untested kid" well at some point you've either got to develop these kids and put some trust in them or you're never actually going to bear the fruits of an academy. We might as f**k it all off if we're never going to step them up. Jürgen and Pepjin speak in incredibly glowing terms about TAA and it's clear to see why, he's got massive potential and I'm more than happy to trust Jürgen's judgement on this one considering he develops players all the time. Secondly to this we have Clyne in front of him, a player with a very good injury record (touch wood) so the 'gamble' here was hardly putting our season at risk. Considering in the past we've played the likes of Raheem Stering back there then TAA as the back up should look reasonable.

Your next point of attention is draw to Can. Well I tend to agree that Jürgen has a soft spot with Can but at the end of last season he was producing great form so it's hardly surprising, given his age, that Jürgen would expect him to progress this year too. If he's regressed then this needs addressing but again that, for me, is a point made with far too much hindsight. At the start of the year I didn't hear too many calling Can an issue and more were actually excited how he'd progress.

Sturridge is the one that seems to be getting most attention and I think it's clear, much like Benteke as Dave highlights, Jürgen rates him but doesn't seem him fitting in his current system. Off the bench though he does and in cup games you'd like to think that Sturridge would be excellent back-up. As a point of weakness in the sqaud if we're really highlighting Sturridge as that then I think we've gone beyond the ridiculous into some other realm of reality.

Fair enough. I would like to point out though that competition for places between two keepers who repeatedly make mistakes and cost us games is hardly conducive to a strong squad. This goes to the core of what I'm saying. We have a big squad but not a talented squad. We need quality as much as we need quantity and unfortunately right now we don't have that. I also agree that we need to develop the kid but surely TAA should be third choice, not second? He's only eighteen, after all. Cup games are the place for him to get his experience while we have two top quality experienced right backs competing for the place. Would you feel comfortable with TAA playing for most of a season at right back if Clyne got injured, given his lack of experience? Perhaps you would, I wouldn't though. I'd actually argue that our strongest position for competition for places is Centre back. Klavan has been adequate cover and Gomez has first team experience. One's towards the back end of his career, the other at the beginning but both are back up for senior players. Wouldn't we benefit from that sort of arrangement across the pitch?

Fair enough. I would like to point out though that competition for places between two keepers who repeatedly make mistakes and cost us games is hardly conducive to a strong squad. This goes to the core of what I'm saying. We have a big squad but not a talented squad. We need quality as much as we need quantity and unfortunately right now we don't have that. I also agree that we need to develop the kid but surely TAA should be third choice, not second? He's only eighteen, after all. Cup games are the place for him to get his experience while we have two top quality experienced right backs competing for the place. Would you feel comfortable with TAA playing for most of a season at right back if Clyne got injured, given his lack of experience? Perhaps you would, I wouldn't though. I'd actually argue that our strongest position for competition for places is Centre back. Klavan has been adequate cover and Gomez has first team experience. One's towards the back end of his career, the other at the beginning but both are back up for senior players. Wouldn't we benefit from that sort of arrangement across the pitch?

I'd agree, judging right now on what we've seen so far that the keeper situation is not ideal. However I'm prepared to give Karius longer in the hope that he'd return to his Bundesliga form, which there are small signs and I'm also encouraged by Mignolet's upturn in form recently. Fair enough he conceded on all 3 shots against Swansea but before that had looked an improved version of himself and had won praise from plenty.

In terms of TAA, yes perhaps he should be third choice but I'd also suspect that there are a lot players in our squad that could fill in there. Would I be comfortable in him playing there most of the season, depends which half of football against the manc's we're judging him on. First half hell no, second half yes I haven't truly seen enough of him to be sure, but I have seen enough to see he's a talent and no issue with giving Jürgen the benefit on this. It's not cost us yet and TAA has earned some valuable experience I hope we'll reap the benefits of, so in terms of a gamble, I see it as a small one.

I agree in terms of CB, we have the best competition for places there and indeed Jürgen said he intended to start from the back. Would we benefit from that kind of depth throughout the squad, of course we would but that doesn't make our current squad 'suicidal' or 'bonkers' either. It makes it the first step after the first proper window.

As Jürgen said today, he didn't realise that we had to win the league to make people happy this season. I think, like most of us he had hopes of seeing us progress nicely, perhaps win a cup and be strong in the league but not really contenders given how far back, in terms of quality we were. This is why I also have issue with when Mick tries to defend Brendan's purchases because I think when Jürgen took over our squad actually looked at one of it's weakest points since FSG took over.

Now in my opinion Jürgen has taken Milner, someone I thought would struggle to get in the side and converted him into one of the better LBs in the league. He's taken a misfiring Lallana and made him look absolutely vital to the team. Re-introduced Firmino into the XI and he looks, to me, like one of the best players in the league. Lovren is massively improved, from a misfiring misfit I think he has a bit of his mojo back. Even Mignolet, a keeper I thought was completely finished, couldn't stop a bloody shot (granted didn't against the Swans ) to actually looking like he might be improving and then we add the players he brought in, the likes of Mane, Matip etc and yes I look at our quality, compared to last season, having improved massively and this is indeed reflected on the pitch. The issue I feel is that we've got within touching distance of the top and everyone is suddenly falling over themselves looking for what we could have done to actually push us over the line, well in truth we're probably further away than just that 1 player so we need to look further than that. What we should be doing is remaining positive that at least we're now heading in the right direction. CL looks like it could and should be returning and then we can rubber stamp the squad in the summer, but no it seems it's the right time to start firing shots and calling things 'suicidal' or 'bonkers', like I said I, personally find that ridiculous and uncalled for.

All that aside, the issue we have run into is twofold and I believe was forseeable a while ago (it must have been because quite a few of us on here saw it coming). The issues are:

1. When one of our first choice eleven (who are a bloody good side in fairness) are unavailable, the replacements are not often enough up to it. On occasions we don't have a credible like for like replacement (Mane, Milner, Clyne, Henderson) and at other times those that step in are only capable of doing so for short periods (Klavan, Lucas, Stewart etc).

2. We don't have anybody off the bench who can change up the way we play or offer something radically different.


Jürgen has done an incredible job to get this team within touching distance of the top of the league by Christmas, but these two shortcomings are beginning to hurt us now.

Problem is Mick we haven't had just one of our starting 11 missing over the last 6-8 weeks, we've had several out at the same time and as one or two come back it's another one or two missing.  No team/club could handle that without a dip in form, no matter how deep or strong their squads are.

As for like for like replacements, no team really has them, as all players bring different qualities.  Sure it would be great to have Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Lallana, Hendo, Matip mk2s waiting in the wings for those couple of months they might not be available but which team other than maybe RM have 6 squad players of that quality that barely play?  You know a lot about the chelsea lads, if they'd been without Hazard, Costa, Pedro, Willian, Kante/Matic, Moses, Luiz/Cahill over a 6-8wk period, how would they have faired?

Likewise our bench, it's only looked weak since we've been missing so many starters.

Those players we've missed, if it had been one at a time, for a couple of games they wouldn't have been missed so much.  We could have coped without much of a drop off in quality, performances and results.

You could go through everyone of our rivals and most clubs around Europe, that regularly challenge for honours and take out their best 5 or 6 players for 6-8wks and they'd struggle.  It's unrealistic to expect anything else.

Topical  ...... or beyond questioning ?

We did bid for Pulisic in the summer , they turned it down

He tried but in fairness we did a lot of work on the squad in the summer and maybe in fairness it was as much as could be done

by trying you mean they bid low and got turned away.  now that lad is worth so much more

the difference between us and some of those teams we are trying to compete against is that when they identify a critical player.  they will buy him and are willing to pay for it. 

look at manutd with pogba
arsenal sanchez and ozil
chelsea with costa
barcelona suarez neymar etc
real madrid. their entire team

quality demands money.  the sooner we realize this we can turn the corner.   

January 2017 .


ONE WIN  IN EIGHT GAMES

THREE HOME DEFEATS IN ONE WEEK

OUT OF TWO CUP COMPETITIONS  EARLY 

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

More than agree Mick . Very much so.

Just bringing our results into perspective .

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

Transfer committee bought the likes of Moreno, Can etc. They sabotaged Rodgers career at Liverpool with expensive flops. But we gave the expensive flops the benefit of the doubt and with Klopp we believed this squad would kick on. Klopp seemed to be doing just that but then they all regressed back to the mean - the mean being they are sh*t. Proof if need be that there is only so much a great manager can do with a poor squad.

Dave Fallows and Barry Hunter are a f**king disgrace and parasites on this club. And yet they get away with it. And don't get me started on Mike f**king Gordon.

Transfer committee bought the likes of Moreno, Can etc. They sabotaged Rodgers career at Liverpool with expensive flops. But we gave the expensive flops the benefit of the doubt and with Klopp we believed this squad would kick on. Klopp seemed to be doing just that but then they all regressed back to the mean - the mean being they are sh*t. Proof if need be that there is only so much a great manager can do with a poor squad.

Dave Fallows and Barry Hunter are a f**king disgrace and tumours on this club. And yet they get away with it.

It's often repeated but Klopp is happy with the recruiters & recruits, no point us having a moan about owners when our Boss is clearly happy with what he has at present...

Hopefully he will change his mind & make some real moves in the summer..

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

To be honest Mick it isn't forums or supporters in general that should be a concern, it really is where the manager's head is at.

We are informed that apparently ''the money is in place and always has been'' to improve the team, Jürgen gives the assertion obligatory agreement.
Consequently any blame for a failure to compete with our rivals is strapped on his shoulders by the man himself, whether that burden is of his entire making or not.

How long before the weight of responsibility becomes unbearable?
How long before the obvious overcomes him 'managing his national team is a doddle compared to the brick wall he faces with LFC'.

If the above did transpire (and it is plausible) who would manage the club in that scenario?

It's often repeated but Klopp is happy with the recruiters & recruits, no point us having a moan about owners when our Boss is clearly happy with what he has at present...

Hopefully he will change his mind & make some real moves in the summer..

Perhaps but too often those higher up in the club get away with it but it always ends up at the coaches feet. On our fourth manager under FSG with Jürgen. Don't think it's being too churlish saying Liverpool's excellent form in 2016 was down to Jürgen IN SPITE of those above him and our success in the future under Jürgen will continue to be in spite of the talentless tw*ts above him.

I don't like his ball possession philosophy: holding the ball for too long while producing too little action in front of the goal. I want Liverpool to be more impatient - yes Jürgen IMPATIENT - towards the goal.

Also I wanna say this one: I hope Jürgen can work here for years, I hope Jürgen can work next season even if we fail miserably (we need consistency), but if someone ever pulls the trigger, please remember Rafa Benitez or King Kenny! No more f*cking experiements.

I don't like his ball possession philosophy: holding the ball for too long while producing too little action in front of the goal. I want Liverpool to be more impatient - yes Jürgen IMPATIENT - towards the goal.

Also I wanna say this one: I hope Jürgen can work here for years, I hope Jürgen can work next season even if we fail miserably (we need consistency), but if someone ever pulls the trigger, please remember Rafa Benitez or King Kenny! No more f*cking experiements.

The thing though is that this team lacks the midfielders that can break teams that are sitting in a deep block. The entire system was built around being able to press and force mistakes and building a lethal counter attacking game from lost possession.

Teams are now sitting back and saying that they do not want that possession, they are pretty much defending the central areas and forcing the ball wide and asking the fullbacks to create something and they are coming up short because that is not a strong point of their game. Wijnaldum, Can, Henderson, Lucas are not going to play that defense splitting pass with any regularity, Lallana is all about movement too and there is less space for that to happen.

Firmino looks lost with teams sitting so deep.

I mentioned the the 343 formation in another thread. It seems to be working for the chavs and I think we have the personnel to change it round plus then having some quality cover. I think the 343 would probably get the best out of sturridge aswel. The problem with sturridge is with our current 433 the striker has to work as equally hard as everyone when we don't have the ball, that's not sturridges game but he is a natural goal scorer so you would think he would be better in the side than out of it. The 343 changes into a 5221 when we don't have the ball or a 541 if you ask the 2 attackers behind the striker to drop back and cover in midfield. That way we can still play our pressing game and we'll have sturridge up top where he needs to be and more useful.
                        Migs
       Lovren   Matip    Klaven
Clyne     Hendo  Wijnaldum   Milner
               Mane      Coutinho
                       Sturridge

When we don't have the ball
                        Migs
Clyne Lovren Matip Klaven milner
Mane Hendo Wijnaldum coutinho
                     Sturridge
Lallana firmino can gomez are players with quality who can cover or start but it does give us options without having to reley on the kids all the time.
   

All I do know is that something has to change and change pretty quickly. Whether that's formations, managers, owners, formations, or the tactics, I don't know, but it has to change.

I mentioned the the 343 formation in another thread. It seems to be working for the chavs and I think we have the personnel to change it round plus then having some quality cover. I think the 343 would probably get the best out of sturridge aswel. The problem with sturridge is with our current 433 the striker has to work as equally hard as everyone when we don't have the ball, that's not sturridges game but he is a natural goal scorer so you would think he would be better in the side than out of it. The 343 changes into a 5221 when we don't have the ball or a 541 if you ask the 2 attackers behind the striker to drop back and cover in midfield. That way we can still play our pressing game and we'll have sturridge up top where he needs to be and more useful.
                        Migs
       Lovren   Matip    Klaven
Clyne     Hendo  Wijnaldum   Milner
               Mane      Coutinho
                       Sturridge

When we don't have the ball
                        Migs
Clyne Lovren Matip Klaven milner
Mane Hendo Wijnaldum coutinho
                     Sturridge
Lallana firmino can gomez are players with quality who can cover or start but it does give us options without having to reley on the kids all the time.
   

Firmino should start up top ahead of Stu every time.

Stu's pace is gone now completely.

Two words, Winter break. People keep banging on about how Jürgen did things in Germany, how he never bought in Winter, never went route one etc etc. They take Crimbo off there though don't they? Freshen up a bit, recover, heal niggles etc. We don't do that here, the games just keep coming.

We need a bigger squad with more quality (ie kids who aren't ready aren't part of it) and we need alternative ways of winning football matches which don't always include running miles further than the opposition.

In short, not change but adapt.

It is not a valid excuse. He knew that there would be more games this season. If anything, last season should have been a wake up call to him seeing how he started playing reserves in the league games and focused on the Europa League.

This is also not the first time he is facing a season without a winter break; he took over last season in October and would have been in position to assess what was needed to tackle an entire season. It is simple, he never bought when he had the opportunity to do so, even knowing fill well that he was going to lose Sadio Mane to the Africa Cup of Nations. Another manager who has taken over without the experience of knowing what a winter break is, sits at the top of the table. At some moment in time, responsibility needs to be taken for how the season has turned out and it cannot be that it is a congested fixture schedule, the lack of quality players out there, or any other multitude of reasons that people look to grasp when things are going south.

Firmino should start up top ahead of Stu every time.

Stu's pace is gone now completely.

Is Firmino faster than Sturridge? No, not even in the current state that Sturridge is in. That said, Firmino only works well when the other team goes behind and are forced to chase the game. When they sit back then it is something else.

A funny statistic is that Firmino has started 27 games this season and only has 9 goals. Sturridge with his injuries and coming off the bench has 7. Only one of those two has the capability to go on and get 25 goals a season, and it isn't Firmino.

Is Firmino faster than Sturridge? No, not even in the current state that Sturridge is in. That said, Firmino only works well when the other team goes behind and are forced to chase the game. When they sit back then it is something else.

A funny statistic is that Firmino has started 27 games this season and only has 9 goals. Sturridge with his injuries and coming off the bench has 7. Only one of those two has the capability to go on and get 25 goals a season, and it isn't Firmino.

How many of those 27 starts has Firmino played out wide?

Firmino is faster, harder working, and more of a goal threat than Sturridge when played up front centrally.

Simple facts really.

I could swear that we are the league's leading scorers, simple fact is there isn't much wrong with the philosophy but need to do it with more quality

How many of those 27 starts has Firmino played out wide?

Firmino is faster, harder working, and more of a goal threat than Sturridge when played up front centrally.

Simple facts really.

Aye the current Sturridge is a figment of people's imagination from a couple of years ago.

Can he ever find that acceleration over the 5 yards that made him devastating- not sure!

Aye the current Sturridge is a figment of people's imagination from a couple of years ago.

Can he ever find that acceleration over the 5 yards that made him devastating- not sure!

Stu's acceleration is finished.

He will he sold in the Summer as unfortunately he can no longer do what Klopp demands of his players.

How many of those 27 starts has Firmino played out wide?

Firmino is faster, harder working, and more of a goal threat than Sturridge when played up front centrally.

Simple facts really.

Firmino works harder, that is something I will give you. That said, he went a stretch of 12 games scoring a single goal before he got his double. If you are a forward and you go that long without a goal then we have to doubt just how good you are. If things go at the rate they are, he may well end up with 15 -17 goals having played over 40 games. Is that a good enough return for someone who people look at as the starting 9/false 9 at Liverpool?

Finally, someone said that each team needs pace, but not to the degree that LFC fans state. It is true. The problems with this team have more to do with a midfield that struggles to create against teams sitting deep, and players who cannot make that forward pass that can turn defense into attack. The same people who now complain that Sturridge is poor cannot see the futility in having your midfielders hoofing the ball to him or a build up so slow the opposing team can see what is coming from a mile away.

Firmino? I will struggle to count the number of good games he has had this season since Coutinho got injured. He's been that poor.

As for the question how many games has he started wide? What does that have to do with anything? Look at the forwards in other teams and what they are getting per minute played and compare that with Firmino. You cannot be playing as many games as he is playing and be a handful of goals ahead of Sturridge and Origi who are bit part players.

Sometimes, people look for exotic solutions to what should be simple problems. There are calls for Klopp to go for another formation say a 3-4-3. What would any of those solve?

The best teams in the world, and most of the best managers tend to stick to one formation. The exceptions to those would be Conte who played 3-5-2 and the 4-midfield diamond-2 at Juventus and Pep Guardiola who shifted across a lot of formations.

Even Mourinho either played 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 but rarely ever played both formations in a single season. What most teams do is to have players in the same position who have different attributes where a game can change by simply changing the personnel rather than switching formations.

One of the biggest problems with Rodgers was the fact that he kept changing formations to a point where he had nothing else to turn to.

And we thought we had problems with zonal marking 

EDIT: Well, we did to be fair

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

No one is hounding him out, let's keep things in perspective , it's just that a lot of strange decision 's are being made and that make's people really confused and question those decision's being made.

But as soon as Man Utd overtake us in the league there is gona be a shitstorm. Once again we had a chance to build on something but decided to see how the others do.

Measuring our development against the other big hitters instead of pushing on to improve our squad and challenge the established players to go up a gear has once again came to bite us on the arse.

" I'm happy with what i've got " is great when they have won something. Saying that with the race only halfway run and your not even at the front is naive. Especially when flaws in the team are there for all to see ( especially your nearest opponents )

I cannot believe that Jürgen thought what we had was enough to see us over the line. Seriously? He thought Henderson , Can ,Gini ,Moreno , Mignolet , Lovren , Origi , Firminho , Clyne were going to sustain a top 4 campaign?  They are players who go missing in so many games i have never had faith in any of them .

In two weeks we are going to out of everything. We had are chance ( again for the umpteenth time ) but blew it once again  thinking the hard work was done. When are we gona learn?