Should Klopp Be More Flexible With His Footballing Philosophy?

He said the same about Benteke before he fu**ed him off and Mignolet before he brought Karius in and dropped Mig.

Wouldn't read too much in to what he says about players who are clearly struggling under him.

This include Coutinho,Mane,Milner,Hendo,Matip,Frimino? Because he rates them Highly

I think recently we have been too slow and ponderous on the ball. Before Xmas when we were flying we were very very direct, got to ball back and all broke forward. I don't see that happening at the moment, we win the call back and the man in possession has no options. 

You've noticed that too!

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Was I saying we had strength in depth for all areas? No.

I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a "suicidal approach" or "bonkers" for going into the season with that squad.

I think what was done in the summer was the first, rather large step in assembling a strong squad and I listed each player that was in the squad and gave them the benefit of what Jürgen clearly had in mind. For instance dismissing Karius as being not good enough is firstly looked at with the benefit of hindsight, secondly far too early to judge and ridiculing it for the cost was unfair because it was a release clause. Jürgen bought him clearly to start now if he fails then I'd give Jürgen a second chance at getting it right but saying the player was never good enough to be in the squad, for all above reasons is ridiculous.

I actually believe right now in the goal keeping area we have the strongest competition we've had since FSG arrived (clearly ignoring the time in the summer Reina was here with Mignolet as they never truly competed for the same spot.)

Next you move on to the brain dead left back and this is the only area in the squad that I give Jürgen the benefit of missing his targets. It was clear in the summer we went for 2 and never got either. Where Jürgen isn't getting the credit he deserves is in converting Milner. Most people thought this was a crazy move, I certainly thought it was a little nuts to be honest but right now I'm more than happy with Milner's defending and in fact am more at odds with his attacking contributions (outside of his awesome penalties). As a back up I tend to agree Moreno wont be good enough long term but we should have cover there in Klavan/Gomez who have both played there also, so it wasn't as if he is the only option.

Next you move on to "an ageing midfielder", for a defensive midfielder Lucas is not really that old having only this month turn 30. We had Gerrard playing this role much older and he also struggled with mobility. As a back up, or for coming on late in games Lucas is a sound option, simple as that really, the case for him has been made time and again.

In terms of your "untested kid" well at some point you've either got to develop these kids and put some trust in them or you're never actually going to bear the fruits of an academy. We might as well f**k it all off if we're never going to step them up. Jürgen and Pepjin speak in incredibly glowing terms about TAA and it's clear to see why, he's got massive potential and I'm more than happy to trust Jürgen's judgement on this one considering he develops players all the time. Secondly to this we have Clyne in front of him, a player with a very good injury record (touch wood) so the 'gamble' here was hardly putting our season at risk. Considering in the past we've played the likes of Raheem Stering back there then TAA as the back up should look reasonable.

Your attention is then drawn to Can. Well I tend to agree that Jürgen has a soft spot with Can but at the end of last season he was producing great form so it's hardly surprising, given his age, that Jürgen would expect him to progress this year too. If he's regressed then this needs addressing but again that, for me, is a point made with far too much hindsight. At the start of the year I didn't hear too many calling Can an issue and more were actually excited how he'd progress.

Sturridge is the one that seems to be getting most attention and I think it's clear, much like Benteke as Dave highlights, Jürgen rates him but doesn't see him fitting in his current system. Off the bench though he does and in cup games you'd like to think that Sturridge would be excellent back-up. As a point of weakness in the sqaud if we're really highlighting Sturridge as that then I think we've gone beyond the ridiculous into some other realm of reality.

This include Coutinho,Mane,Milner,Hendo,Matip,Frimino? Because he rates them Highly

Are they struggling under him or have they been?

Was I saying we had strength in depth for all areas? No.

I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a "suicidal approach" or "bonkers" for going into the season with that squad.

I think what was done in the summer was the first, rather large step in assembling a strong squad and I a listed each player that was in the squad and bought the benefit of what Jürgen clearly had in mind. For instance dismissing Karius as being not good enough is firstly looked at with the benefit of hindsight, secondly far too early to judge and ridiculing it for the cost was unfair because it was a release clause. Jürgen bought him clearly to start now if he fails then I'd give Jürgen a second chance at getting it right but saying the player was never good enough to be in the squad, for all above reasons is ridiculous.

I actually believe right now in the goal keeping area we have the strongest competition we've had since FSG arrived (clearly ignoring the time in the summer Reina was here with Mignolet as they never truly competed for the same spot.)

Next you move on to the brain dead left back and this is the only area in the squad that I give Jürgen the benefit of missing his targets. It was clear in the summer we went for 2 and never got either. Where Jürgen isn't getting the credit he deserves is in converting Milner. Most people thought this was a crazy move, I certainly thought it was a little nuts to be honest but right now I'm more than happy with Milner's defending and in fact am more at odds with his attacking contributions (outside of his awesome penalties). As a back up I tend to agree Moreno wont be good enough long term but we should have cover there in Klavan/Gomez who have both played there also, so it wasn't as if he is the only option.

Next you move on to "an ageing midfielder", for a defensive midfielder Lucas is not really that old having only this month turn 30. We had Gerrard playing this role much older and he also struggled with mobility. As a back up, or for coming on late in games Lucas is a sound option, simple as that really, the case for him has been made time and again.

In terms of your "untested kid" well at some point you've either got to develop these kids and put some trust in them or you're never actually going to bear the fruits of an academy. We might as f**k it all off if we're never going to step them up. Jürgen and Pepjin speak in incredibly glowing terms about TAA and it's clear to see why, he's got massive potential and I'm more than happy to trust Jürgen's judgement on this one considering he develops players all the time. Secondly to this we have Clyne in front of him, a player with a very good injury record (touch wood) so the 'gamble' here was hardly putting our season at risk. Considering in the past we've played the likes of Raheem Stering back there then TAA as the back up should look reasonable.

Your next point of attention is draw to Can. Well I tend to agree that Jürgen has a soft spot with Can but at the end of last season he was producing great form so it's hardly surprising, given his age, that Jürgen would expect him to progress this year too. If he's regressed then this needs addressing but again that, for me, is a point made with far too much hindsight. At the start of the year I didn't hear too many calling Can an issue and more were actually excited how he'd progress.

Sturridge is the one that seems to be getting most attention and I think it's clear, much like Benteke as Dave highlights, Jürgen rates him but doesn't seem him fitting in his current system. Off the bench though he does and in cup games you'd like to think that Sturridge would be excellent back-up. As a point of weakness in the sqaud if we're really highlighting Sturridge as that then I think we've gone beyond the ridiculous into some other realm of reality.

Fair enough. I would like to point out though that competition for places between two keepers who repeatedly make mistakes and cost us games is hardly conducive to a strong squad. This goes to the core of what I'm saying. We have a big squad but not a talented squad. We need quality as much as we need quantity and unfortunately right now we don't have that. I also agree that we need to develop the kid but surely TAA should be third choice, not second? He's only eighteen, after all. Cup games are the place for him to get his experience while we have two top quality experienced right backs competing for the place. Would you feel comfortable with TAA playing for most of a season at right back if Clyne got injured, given his lack of experience? Perhaps you would, I wouldn't though. I'd actually argue that our strongest position for competition for places is Centre back. Klavan has been adequate cover and Gomez has first team experience. One's towards the back end of his career, the other at the beginning but both are back up for senior players. Wouldn't we benefit from that sort of arrangement across the pitch?

Fair enough. I would like to point out though that competition for places between two keepers who repeatedly make mistakes and cost us games is hardly conducive to a strong squad. This goes to the core of what I'm saying. We have a big squad but not a talented squad. We need quality as much as we need quantity and unfortunately right now we don't have that. I also agree that we need to develop the kid but surely TAA should be third choice, not second? He's only eighteen, after all. Cup games are the place for him to get his experience while we have two top quality experienced right backs competing for the place. Would you feel comfortable with TAA playing for most of a season at right back if Clyne got injured, given his lack of experience? Perhaps you would, I wouldn't though. I'd actually argue that our strongest position for competition for places is Centre back. Klavan has been adequate cover and Gomez has first team experience. One's towards the back end of his career, the other at the beginning but both are back up for senior players. Wouldn't we benefit from that sort of arrangement across the pitch?

I'd agree, judging right now on what we've seen so far that the keeper situation is not ideal. However I'm prepared to give Karius longer in the hope that he'd return to his Bundesliga form, which there are small signs and I'm also encouraged by Mignolet's upturn in form recently. Fair enough he conceded on all 3 shots against Swansea but before that had looked an improved version of himself and had won praise from plenty.

In terms of TAA, yes perhaps he should be third choice but I'd also suspect that there are a lot players in our squad that could fill in there. Would I be comfortable in him playing there most of the season, depends which half of football against the manc's we're judging him on. First half hell no, second half yes I haven't truly seen enough of him to be sure, but I have seen enough to see he's a talent and no issue with giving Jürgen the benefit on this. It's not cost us yet and TAA has earned some valuable experience I hope we'll reap the benefits of, so in terms of a gamble, I see it as a small one.

I agree in terms of CB, we have the best competition for places there and indeed Jürgen said he intended to start from the back. Would we benefit from that kind of depth throughout the squad, of course we would but that doesn't make our current squad 'suicidal' or 'bonkers' either. It makes it the first step after the first proper window.

As Jürgen said today, he didn't realise that we had to win the league to make people happy this season. I think, like most of us he had hopes of seeing us progress nicely, perhaps win a cup and be strong in the league but not really contenders given how far back, in terms of quality we were. This is why I also have issue with when Mick tries to defend Brendan's purchases because I think when Jürgen took over our squad actually looked at one of it's weakest points since FSG took over.

Now in my opinion Jürgen has taken Milner, someone I thought would struggle to get in the side and converted him into one of the better LBs in the league. He's taken a misfiring Lallana and made him look absolutely vital to the team. Re-introduced Firmino into the XI and he looks, to me, like one of the best players in the league. Lovren is massively improved, from a misfiring misfit I think he has a bit of his mojo back. Even Mignolet, a keeper I thought was completely finished, couldn't stop a bloody shot (granted didn't against the Swans ) to actually looking like he might be improving and then we add the players he brought in, the likes of Mane, Matip etc and yes I look at our quality, compared to last season, having improved massively and this is indeed reflected on the pitch. The issue I feel is that we've got within touching distance of the top and everyone is suddenly falling over themselves looking for what we could have done to actually push us over the line, well in truth we're probably further away than just that 1 player so we need to look further than that. What we should be doing is remaining positive that at least we're now heading in the right direction. CL looks like it could and should be returning and then we can rubber stamp the squad in the summer, but no it seems it's the right time to start firing shots and calling things 'suicidal' or 'bonkers', like I said I, personally find that ridiculous and uncalled for.

All that aside, the issue we have run into is twofold and I believe was forseeable a while ago (it must have been because quite a few of us on here saw it coming). The issues are:

1. When one of our first choice eleven (who are a bloody good side in fairness) are unavailable, the replacements are not often enough up to it. On occasions we don't have a credible like for like replacement (Mane, Milner, Clyne, Henderson) and at other times those that step in are only capable of doing so for short periods (Klavan, Lucas, Stewart etc).

2. We don't have anybody off the bench who can change up the way we play or offer something radically different.


Jürgen has done an incredible job to get this team within touching distance of the top of the league by Christmas, but these two shortcomings are beginning to hurt us now.

Problem is Mick we haven't had just one of our starting 11 missing over the last 6-8 weeks, we've had several out at the same time and as one or two come back it's another one or two missing.  No team/club could handle that without a dip in form, no matter how deep or strong their squads are.

As for like for like replacements, no team really has them, as all players bring different qualities.  Sure it would be great to have Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Lallana, Hendo, Matip mk2s waiting in the wings for those couple of months they might not be available but which team other than maybe RM have 6 squad players of that quality that barely play?  You know a lot about the chelsea lads, if they'd been without Hazard, Costa, Pedro, Willian, Kante/Matic, Moses, Luiz/Cahill over a 6-8wk period, how would they have faired?

Likewise our bench, it's only looked weak since we've been missing so many starters.

Those players we've missed, if it had been one at a time, for a couple of games they wouldn't have been missed so much.  We could have coped without much of a drop off in quality, performances and results.

You could go through everyone of our rivals and most clubs around Europe, that regularly challenge for honours and take out their best 5 or 6 players for 6-8wks and they'd struggle.  It's unrealistic to expect anything else.

Topical  ...... or beyond questioning ?

We did bid for Pulisic in the summer , they turned it down

He tried but in fairness we did a lot of work on the squad in the summer and maybe in fairness it was as much as could be done

by trying you mean they bid low and got turned away.  now that lad is worth so much more

the difference between us and some of those teams we are trying to compete against is that when they identify a critical player.  they will buy him and are willing to pay for it. 

look at manutd with pogba
arsenal sanchez and ozil
chelsea with costa
barcelona suarez neymar etc
real madrid. their entire team

quality demands money.  the sooner we realize this we can turn the corner.   

January 2017 .


ONE WIN  IN EIGHT GAMES

THREE HOME DEFEATS IN ONE WEEK

OUT OF TWO CUP COMPETITIONS  EARLY 

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

More than agree Mick . Very much so.

Just bringing our results into perspective .

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

Transfer committee bought the likes of Moreno, Can etc. They sabotaged Rodgers career at Liverpool with expensive flops. But we gave the expensive flops the benefit of the doubt and with Klopp we believed this squad would kick on. Klopp seemed to be doing just that but then they all regressed back to the mean - the mean being they are sh*t. Proof if need be that there is only so much a great manager can do with a poor squad.

Dave Fallows and Barry Hunter are a f**king disgrace and parasites on this club. And yet they get away with it. And don't get me started on Mike f**king Gordon.

Transfer committee bought the likes of Moreno, Can etc. They sabotaged Rodgers career at Liverpool with expensive flops. But we gave the expensive flops the benefit of the doubt and with Klopp we believed this squad would kick on. Klopp seemed to be doing just that but then they all regressed back to the mean - the mean being they are sh*t. Proof if need be that there is only so much a great manager can do with a poor squad.

Dave Fallows and Barry Hunter are a f**king disgrace and tumours on this club. And yet they get away with it.

It's often repeated but Klopp is happy with the recruiters & recruits, no point us having a moan about owners when our Boss is clearly happy with what he has at present...

Hopefully he will change his mind & make some real moves in the summer..

We've already hounded one good (IMHO) manager out of the door. We were extremely lucky to get a World Class one to replace him, lets keep things in perspective.

To be honest Mick it isn't forums or supporters in general that should be a concern, it really is where the manager's head is at.

We are informed that apparently ''the money is in place and always has been'' to improve the team, Jürgen gives the assertion obligatory agreement.
Consequently any blame for a failure to compete with our rivals is strapped on his shoulders by the man himself, whether that burden is of his entire making or not.

How long before the weight of responsibility becomes unbearable?
How long before the obvious overcomes him 'managing his national team is a doddle compared to the brick wall he faces with LFC'.

If the above did transpire (and it is plausible) who would manage the club in that scenario?

It's often repeated but Klopp is happy with the recruiters & recruits, no point us having a moan about owners when our Boss is clearly happy with what he has at present...

Hopefully he will change his mind & make some real moves in the summer..

Perhaps but too often those higher up in the club get away with it but it always ends up at the coaches feet. On our fourth manager under FSG with Jürgen. Don't think it's being too churlish saying Liverpool's excellent form in 2016 was down to Jürgen IN SPITE of those above him and our success in the future under Jürgen will continue to be in spite of the talentless tw*ts above him.

I don't like his ball possession philosophy: holding the ball for too long while producing too little action in front of the goal. I want Liverpool to be more impatient - yes Jürgen IMPATIENT - towards the goal.

Also I wanna say this one: I hope Jürgen can work here for years, I hope Jürgen can work next season even if we fail miserably (we need consistency), but if someone ever pulls the trigger, please remember Rafa Benitez or King Kenny! No more f*cking experiements.

I don't like his ball possession philosophy: holding the ball for too long while producing too little action in front of the goal. I want Liverpool to be more impatient - yes Jürgen IMPATIENT - towards the goal.

Also I wanna say this one: I hope Jürgen can work here for years, I hope Jürgen can work next season even if we fail miserably (we need consistency), but if someone ever pulls the trigger, please remember Rafa Benitez or King Kenny! No more f*cking experiements.

The thing though is that this team lacks the midfielders that can break teams that are sitting in a deep block. The entire system was built around being able to press and force mistakes and building a lethal counter attacking game from lost possession.

Teams are now sitting back and saying that they do not want that possession, they are pretty much defending the central areas and forcing the ball wide and asking the fullbacks to create something and they are coming up short because that is not a strong point of their game. Wijnaldum, Can, Henderson, Lucas are not going to play that defense splitting pass with any regularity, Lallana is all about movement too and there is less space for that to happen.

Firmino looks lost with teams sitting so deep.

I mentioned the the 343 formation in another thread. It seems to be working for the chavs and I think we have the personnel to change it round plus then having some quality cover. I think the 343 would probably get the best out of sturridge aswel. The problem with sturridge is with our current 433 the striker has to work as equally hard as everyone when we don't have the ball, that's not sturridges game but he is a natural goal scorer so you would think he would be better in the side than out of it. The 343 changes into a 5221 when we don't have the ball or a 541 if you ask the 2 attackers behind the striker to drop back and cover in midfield. That way we can still play our pressing game and we'll have sturridge up top where he needs to be and more useful.
                        Migs
       Lovren   Matip    Klaven
Clyne     Hendo  Wijnaldum   Milner
               Mane      Coutinho
                       Sturridge

When we don't have the ball
                        Migs
Clyne Lovren Matip Klaven milner
Mane Hendo Wijnaldum coutinho
                     Sturridge
Lallana firmino can gomez are players with quality who can cover or start but it does give us options without having to reley on the kids all the time.
   

All I do know is that something has to change and change pretty quickly. Whether that's formations, managers, owners, formations, or the tactics, I don't know, but it has to change.

I mentioned the the 343 formation in another thread. It seems to be working for the chavs and I think we have the personnel to change it round plus then having some quality cover. I think the 343 would probably get the best out of sturridge aswel. The problem with sturridge is with our current 433 the striker has to work as equally hard as everyone when we don't have the ball, that's not sturridges game but he is a natural goal scorer so you would think he would be better in the side than out of it. The 343 changes into a 5221 when we don't have the ball or a 541 if you ask the 2 attackers behind the striker to drop back and cover in midfield. That way we can still play our pressing game and we'll have sturridge up top where he needs to be and more useful.
                        Migs
       Lovren   Matip    Klaven
Clyne     Hendo  Wijnaldum   Milner
               Mane      Coutinho
                       Sturridge

When we don't have the ball
                        Migs
Clyne Lovren Matip Klaven milner
Mane Hendo Wijnaldum coutinho
                     Sturridge
Lallana firmino can gomez are players with quality who can cover or start but it does give us options without having to reley on the kids all the time.
   

Firmino should start up top ahead of Stu every time.

Stu's pace is gone now completely.

Two words, Winter break. People keep banging on about how Jürgen did things in Germany, how he never bought in Winter, never went route one etc etc. They take Crimbo off there though don't they? Freshen up a bit, recover, heal niggles etc. We don't do that here, the games just keep coming.

We need a bigger squad with more quality (ie kids who aren't ready aren't part of it) and we need alternative ways of winning football matches which don't always include running miles further than the opposition.

In short, not change but adapt.

It is not a valid excuse. He knew that there would be more games this season. If anything, last season should have been a wake up call to him seeing how he started playing reserves in the league games and focused on the Europa League.

This is also not the first time he is facing a season without a winter break; he took over last season in October and would have been in position to assess what was needed to tackle an entire season. It is simple, he never bought when he had the opportunity to do so, even knowing fill well that he was going to lose Sadio Mane to the Africa Cup of Nations. Another manager who has taken over without the experience of knowing what a winter break is, sits at the top of the table. At some moment in time, responsibility needs to be taken for how the season has turned out and it cannot be that it is a congested fixture schedule, the lack of quality players out there, or any other multitude of reasons that people look to grasp when things are going south.

Firmino should start up top ahead of Stu every time.

Stu's pace is gone now completely.

Is Firmino faster than Sturridge? No, not even in the current state that Sturridge is in. That said, Firmino only works well when the other team goes behind and are forced to chase the game. When they sit back then it is something else.

A funny statistic is that Firmino has started 27 games this season and only has 9 goals. Sturridge with his injuries and coming off the bench has 7. Only one of those two has the capability to go on and get 25 goals a season, and it isn't Firmino.