Virgil Van Dijk (Southampton)

So, what is it: "The club were prepared to pay big money" or Klopp, ("who never looks to spend big" and has "the final say" remember), was "prepared to pay big money"?

Not sure what it is you are trying to pick apart. Simple really, Klopp doesn't go out with the intention of spending massive amounts of money, never has done, he's not that type of manager. But he will be prepared to do it for the right player and under the right circumstances.

What has £36M got to do with anything we had a zero net spend last year.

Klopp has the final say in what exactly? When he wanted Draxler and Brandt this January what happened then.
That's right the club couldn't get the deals done, ever heard those excuses with FSG previously!

PS This is the same PR who briefed the press that Sanchez would not move to LFC because his wife wanted to stay in London, so you will have to forgive me if I am sceptical re anything FSG state 

It has everything to do with it, you said about the club not paying the extra money but they did. Regardless of what the Net spend is, we still spend money. The owners could easily pocket the money from player sales but they don't, they re-invest it into the new players like Mane. Rodgers got slated for spending a lot of money and the signings being rubbish and then all of a sudden it's a case that the club aren't spending money...
If we had been having more success with our signings and won a few trophies, battling it out in all fronts like back in 08 then the owners would have been praised for doing it.
Ultimately FSG are business men, they aren't in it for the love of the club, to them it's a business and if you can run a business and improve it without having to invest your own money, I.e using just the player sales then that puts the business in a good position and if IMO that's a good thing. We've been paying g the money for players, we've spent hundreds of millions on players over the last few years and that's mainly come from player sales, if it hadn't then the club could well be well and truly up the creek financially if we were paying out all that money, not getting the success to generate more money. We had H&G taking us to the shi**er because they had no money (amongst other things).
People wouldn't be complaining about the Net spend if the players signed had been better. We've signed players for fees similar to that of players that have been a big success at clubs. It's a case of getting the right players, not pumping in as much money as you possibly can and hoping for the best. Look at the Mancs and how much they spend and what their Net spend is and we are laughing at them because they have next to nothing to show for it.

If we get rejected because of a team offering more money to a player then it's no loss IMO because what's the point in having a player that's more interested in the money than being at the club? He will soon want a move elsewhere to get more money.

Not sure what it is you are trying to pick apart. Simple really, Klopp doesn't go out with the intention of spending massive amounts of money, never has done, he's not that type of manager. But he will be prepared to do it for the right player and under the right circumstances.

Not picking anything apart (or at least I'm not trying to) just reiterating what you said: "you can't have it both ways".

He is either prepared to spend big or he isn't: he is either in control, with the final say, or he's not. 😕

If, as he did (in your Mane example), spend big on a player and if he has (as you said in your post) the final say on transfers then...

It really was him and NOT fsg who was prepared to spend big. Know this tho': I have always said he would. 😉

He knew what price Mane was but he still went out with the intention to buy him and therefore spend big.

There is no rule of thumb: this notion that people know by past performance, at a different club, what his future actions will be is laughable.

Truth is, from here on in; I am more happy to go with both "Jürgen has the final say" AND "Jürgen is prepared to spend big".  👍

Personally speaking - I don't want 'it' both ways. 😎

It has everything to do with it, you said about the club not paying the extra money but they did. Regardless of what the Net spend is, we still spend money. The owners could easily pocket the money from player sales but they don't, they re-invest it into the new players like Mane. Rodgers got slated for spending a lot of money and the signings being rubbish and then all of a sudden it's a case that the club aren't spending money...If we had been having more success with our signings and won a few trophies, battling it out in all fronts like back in 08 then the owners would have been praised for doing it.

...


What FSG are doing with the "Net Spend"  Is not spending money, It is turning over money. Recycling it if you will... Still boils down to under investment in the club. If we were continually bring in a better caliber of payer ,you are right not one would mind, but what we are doing is trading potential talent for potential talent, instead of bring in proven talent which is were most here have the objection.... 

Ultimately FSG are business men, they aren't in it for the love of the club, to them it's a business and if you can run a business and improve it without having to invest your own money, I.e using just the player sales then that puts the business in a good position and if IMO that's a good thing. We've been paying g the money for players, we've spent hundreds of millions on players over the last few years and that's mainly come from player sales, if it hadn't then the club could well be well and truly up the creek financially if we were paying out all that money, not getting the success to generate more money. We had H&G taking us to the shi**er because they had no money (amongst other things).
People wouldn't be complaining about the Net spend if the players signed had been better. We've signed players for fees similar to that of players that have been a big success at clubs. It's a case of getting the right players, not pumping in as much money as you possibly can and hoping for the best. Look at the Mancs and how much they spend and what their Net spend is and we are laughing at them because they have next to nothing to show for it.

...
Funny you should mention H&G, I was think earlier that even with the debt H&G got the club into at least  spent money on improving the caliber of the players... I am not a fan of the whole Rafa/H&G thing, but At least he bought in some quality players and I believe that many of the players we have now would struggle to get game time in Rafa's teams

If we get rejected because of a team offering more money to a player then it's no loss IMO because what's the point in having a player that's more interested in the money than being at the club? He will soon want a move elsewhere to get more money.

IF your current Employer paid you £15 per hour and you could work for a new Employer at £20 per hour with the prospects of often working in better conditions and bonuses(CL) who would you choose to work for...? One of the ways Clubs prove how the value a player is by the type of money they pay him... Seems as if FSG valued Deli Ali a lot less than Tottenham, or another way You pay Peanuts, You get Monkeys... FSG are all about making money, even if it mean no real success for the club... This Summer or Next say your bye byes to Coutinho

Not picking anything apart (or at least I'm not trying to) just reiterating what you said: "you can't have it both ways".

He is either prepared to spend big or he isn't: he is either in control, with the final say, or he's not. 😕

If, as he did (in your Mane example), spend big on a player and if he has (as you said in your post) the final say on transfers then...

It really was him and NOT fsg who was prepared to spend big. Know this tho': I have always said he would. 😉

And...

He knew what price Mane was but he still went out with the intention to buy him. So; he either goes 'out with the intention to spend big' or, he doesn't but remember...

It's not me who said he doesn't. 😎

Truth is, from here on in; I am more happy to go with both "Jürgen has the final say" AND "Jürgen is prepared to spend big".  👍

Personally speaking - I don't want 'it' both ways. 😎

The reason that most people don't want to settle on Jürgen being the alpha and omega on transfers (not saying 7KK7 here either, don't believe he's in this group) is because they buy into the cult of personality and think that Jürgen is infallible. Also it must mean you are an FSG apologist if you don't hold them directly responsible for EVERY shortcoming at the club. Neither of those could be further from the truth. Not only did Jürgen admit that he messed up by not doing more to strengthen in the winter (and maybe even last summer if you read between the lines), but also, you can criticize Jürgen and not be an FSG fanboy. Jürgen knew when he took the job what the transfer expenditures looked like under FSG, so he's either a buffoon if he didn't realize what kinds of constraints he would have in place, or he knew which means he  didn't believe it was all down to the amount spent, but who he spent that amount on. I tend to believe  that Jürgen thinks pretty highly of his ability to spot talent and to develop it.  That's why we are seeing a mix of youngsters given a chance, as well as more established players (Mane, Gini, Matip) being targeted. Not all of his transfers will turn out to be great players, and people need to relax and not flip out if Jürgen is judged with fairness on his track record here. It's not like he's going to read this forum and decide to haul arse back to Germany because FL Red questioned his substitutions or his transfer targets.

The reason that most people don't want to settle on Jürgen being the alpha and omega on transfers (not saying 7KK7 here either, don't believe he's in this group) is because they buy into the cult of personality and think that Jürgen is infallible. Also it must mean you are an FSG apologist if you don't hold them directly responsible for EVERY shortcoming at the club. Neither of those could be further from the truth. Not only did Jürgen admit that he messed up by not doing more to strengthen in the winter (and maybe even last summer if you read between the lines), but also, you can criticize Jürgen and not be an FSG fanboy. Jürgen knew when he took the job what the transfer expenditures looked like under FSG, so he's either a buffoon if he didn't realize what kinds of constraints he would have in place, or he knew which means he  didn't believe it was all down to the amount spent, but who he spent that amount on. I tend to believe  that Jürgen thinks pretty highly of his ability to spot talent and to develop it.  That's why we are seeing a mix of youngsters given a chance, as well as more established players (Mane, Gini, Matip) being targeted. Not all of his transfers will turn out to be great players, and people need to relax and not flip out if Jürgen is judged with fairness on his track record here. It's not like he's going to read this forum and decide to haul arse back to Germany because FL Red questioned his substitutions or his transfer targets.

Aye... this effing flip flopping does my napper in. Anyhows...

Where I've settled at: 

* prior to Jürgen's arrival - FSG [transfer committee] dictated policy - the manager did not have a big enough say.

* The consequences were - a team in constant "transition"; just ticking over - not good enough to win, too good to go down.

* since his arrival - the transfer committee have the lesser say. As evident (in my opinion) in the age and experience of his first summer's signings. [Not forgetting either, he spent £59m on 'premiership proven']

* this change; these signings saw us improve.

* Jürgen, with the right quality in depth, can win us the league and I think he knows that.

To that end I am confident he will spend big on ready made players.

Aye... this effing flip flopping does my napper in. Anyhows...

Where I've settled at: 

* prior to Jürgen's arrival - FSG [transfer committee] dictated policy - the manager did not have a big enough say.

* The consequences were - a team in constant "transition"; just ticking over - not good enough to win, too good to go down.

* since his arrival - the transfer committee have the lesser say. As evident (in my opinion) in the age and experience of his first summer's signings. [Not forgetting either, he spent £59m on 'premiership proven']

* this change; these signings saw us improve.

* Jürgen, with the right quality in depth, can win us the league and I think he knows that.

To that end I am confident he will spend big on ready made players.

I agree, and I think those that said he never buys "proven quality" will likely try to  forget they ever uttered those words.

...


What FSG are doing with the "Net Spend"  Is not spending money, It is turning over money. Recycling it if you will... Still boils down to under investment in the club. If we were continually bring in a better caliber of payer ,you are right not one would mind, but what we are doing is trading potential talent for potential talent, instead of bring in proven talent which is were most here have the objection.... 
...
Funny you should mention H&G, I was think earlier that even with the debt H&G got the club into at least  spent money on improving the caliber of the players... I am not a fan of the whole Rafa/H&G thing, but At least he bought in some quality players and I believe that many of the players we have now would struggle to get game time in Rafa's teams
IF your current Employer paid you £15 per hour and you could work for a new Employer at £20 per hour with the prospects of often working in better conditions and bonuses(CL) who would you choose to work for...? One of the ways Clubs prove how the value a player is by the type of money they pay him... Seems as if FSG valued Deli Ali a lot less than Tottenham, or another way You pay Peanuts, You get Monkeys... FSG are all about making money, even if it mean no real success for the club... This Summer or Next say your bye byes to Coutinho

If it's H&G you are using as an example, a better analogy is if your current employer paid you 15 an hour, and you went to someone who was paying 35 an hour but because they repeatedly were running things at a loss nobody is going to have a job in a few years, would you go to THAT job?

The days of a club being run at a loss until you find the next zealot who will just dump money into players until he (also) can't afford it anymore, are over. Building a sustainable economic platform with on-field success as the mission has to be the m.o. now. Current ownership has had its learning curve for sure, but I choose to believe it is a lot closer to getting it right. I understand a number of you do not.

Current ownership has had its learning curve for sure, but I choose to believe it is a lot closer to getting it right. I understand a number of you do not.

And if not this season, next season or the season after and when "it" eventually comes, the open-ended wait will have been totally vindicated; right? 👍

Hmm...

"If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by." - Sun Tzu. 💀

Sorry for straying off topic btw. Catch y'all later.

If it's H&G you are using as an example, a better analogy is if your current employer paid you 15 an hour, and you went to someone who was paying 35 an hour but because they repeatedly were running things at a loss nobody is going to have a job in a few years, would you go to THAT job?

The days of a club being run at a loss until you find the next zealot who will just dump money into players until he (also) can't afford it anymore, are over. Building a sustainable economic platform with on-field success as the mission has to be the m.o. now. Current ownership has had its learning curve for sure, but I choose to believe it is a lot closer to getting it right. I understand a number of you do not.

No one is asking for owners who cripple the club with debt, but at the same time Know one wants owners  who buys young players improve them then sell them on at a vast profit, and the repeat the process over and over as if that's a successful way to run a club and with no consideration of building a team that can achieve lasting success on the field... My point with the other two at least they took the gamble and tried to buy players to succeed knowing that the financial rewards will follow Vs FSG who look to financial rewards first and any success on the field is incidental

We paid around £36mill for Mane...

Zielinski we were putting bids in for which were the same as Napoli, they had theirs accepted whilst we had our rejected to try and get more from us.
The players like Dahoud that we didn't pay more for is because Klopp wouldn't have thought they were worth paying the money for and to be honest, them two players haven't done much at all this season to suggest that we were wrong in not bringing them in.

It's all well and good blaming the owners but why can't people accept Klopp has the final say? We moan when Rodgers didn't say this and then don't believe it when Klopp does say it, can't have it both ways.
Nothing about last summer suggests it was down to the owners, the transfer patterns were the same as it's always been for Klopp, he never looks to spend big and the fact we paid so much for Mane, who was apparently very inconsistent, shows that the club were prepared to pay big money.

Or lets see what the summer window brings first?

Honestly don't get it with some people, all the talk is pointing to us spending more than ever this summer yet people are still complaining. Our owners aren't perfect but I have don't think for a second they didn't let Klopp bring in exactly who he wanted to bring in and was able to. Not the owners fault if we get rejected by a player, it's just the position the club is at for the moment.

But that's just my opinion like, guess no one really knows what is going on behind the scenes.

The 36 million is a big spend for us, but it's not a big spend in the grand scheme of things, even mid table clubs are spending in excess of £30 million these days, Palace and Everton for example.
 It's all very well saying wait and see what the summer brings, but isn't that the same thing we hear about every summer? We've been through this so many times already, I'm sick of hearing about the next window.

Jürgen might have more input on player acquisition, but he doesn't control the budget or the negotiations, that's were we have lost our before.

If it's H&G you are using as an example, a better analogy is if your current employer paid you 15 an hour, and you went to someone who was paying 35 an hour but because they repeatedly were running things at a loss nobody is going to have a job in a few years, would you go to THAT job?

The days of a club being run at a loss until you find the next zealot who will just dump money into players until he (also) can't afford it anymore, are over. Building a sustainable economic platform with on-field success as the mission has to be the m.o. now. Current ownership has had its learning curve for sure, but I choose to believe it is a lot closer to getting it right. I understand a number of you do not.

A learning curve? They've had 7 years man for god sake! They seemed to have learned how to increase the value of their investment without dipping into their pockets easily enough.
If they had the same priority about on field success as they do about their investment margins, we'd probably be champions by now.

A learning curve? They've had 7 years man for god sake! They seemed to have learned how to increase the value of their investment without dipping into their pockets easily enough.
If they had the same priority about on field success as they do about their investment margins, we'd probably be champions by now.

Do you think last summer's transfer window, the first summer under Klopp, was the best since they bought the club?

Nothing short of perfection will justify £50m. This is madness.

I think we need to stop caring about the price tag. If you don't have a car, and someone buys you a car, are you going to tell them they paid too much for it, or just accept it and say thank you and move on?

As long as it doesn't mean we don't reinforce in other areas, who cares what we pay?

I think we need to stop caring about the price tag. If you don't have a car, and someone buys you a car, are you going to tell them they paid too much for it, or just accept it and say thank you and move on?

As long as it doesn't mean we don't reinforce in other areas, who cares what we pay?

As crazy as this sounds, I feel so attached to this club that I have supported since 3 that I don't see it as strangers spending their money, but rather spending our cash. I don't even care how much other clubs spend and overpay on players, but I just hate the thought of that happening to us.

As crazy as this sounds, I feel so attached to this club that I have supported since 3 that I don't see it as strangers spending their money, but rather spending our cash. I don't even care how much other clubs spend and overpay on players, but I just hate the thought of that happening to us.

Yea but "overspending" is such an arbitrary term. I'm sure  that looking back, had we  paid 75m for Mane, no one would have cared the way that he's played for us. So in that sense, we massively underpaid for him as we also did for Coutinho...so who cares if we "overspend" a little on some players.

Just get Jürgen the players he wants, I don't honestly care what it costs.

No footballer is "worth" that much anyway. Hell, they should be getting paid 2000k per week and liking it to play a sport for a living.

As crazy as this sounds, I feel so attached to this club that I have supported since 3 that I don't see it as strangers spending their money, but rather spending our cash. I don't even care how much other clubs spend and overpay on players, but I just hate the thought of that happening to us.

Haha you should have seen us splash the cash in the 70's and 80's when we were at the peak of our dominance.

I think we need to stop caring about the price tag. If you don't have a car, and someone buys you a car, are you going to tell them they paid too much for it, or just accept it and say thank you and move on?

As long as it doesn't mean we don't reinforce in other areas, who cares what we pay?

Here here.

Nothing short of perfection will justify £50m. This is madness.

Of course it's madness, but football has gone crazy and we need to move with the times. If he is the answer to our defensive worries, ( well, if he cuts down on the the number of stupid goals we concede) then it's money well spent. Don't see it happening though.

Of course it's madness, but football has gone crazy and we need to move with the times. If he is the answer to our defensive worries, ( well, if he cuts down on the the number of stupid goals we concede) then it's money well spent. Don't see it happening though.

It's not the money, it's the money we're spending on this player.

Same reservations about Benteke. He won't solve our problems and we'll spend well over what he's worth to find out.

It's not the money, it's the money we're spending on this player.

Same reservations about Benteke. He won't solve our problems and we'll spend well over what he's worth to find out.

True, our defensive problems are not solely down to the players, but I do like the sound of Van Dijk and Matip as our CBs. I'd trust that pairing over what we currently have.

Yea but "overspending" is such an arbitrary term.

Spot on buddy.

You can spend £12m on 'young potential', who turns out to be pish or £12m on a player, who ends up top notch [then sold for profit, of course]...

Point being you do not know in advance which will be "value for money": how could you?

Truth is; no one can - no fan, no matter how smartarse and certainly no F***ing computer program.

What you are then left with [or at least should be left with] is the man who's job is on the line [Jürgen] deciding, if the player he wants, is worth "it" on footballing grounds. The player will ONLY be bought if the club can afford him.

Get your napper around that mindset and cost quickly becomes irrelevant. It then, as it should, boils down to this... is the player good enough?

Because you see and each to their own like - I don't want a player, who ain't F***ing good enough, JUST because he's cheap. 😁