Houllier v Benitez

Not twisting the facts at all.

I'm merely clearing them up, much to your distaste.

Again I take it you have the same problem with the SOS committee for deciding not to protest during the games ?

No, I wouldn't have a problem about Rafa asking either if people would stop pretending he fought against the debt or Hicks and Gillett.

No, I wouldn't have a problem about Rafa asking either if people would stop pretending he fought against the debt or Hicks and Gillett.

That's a back story S@int, its F***ing irrelevant, what is relevant is what he achieved as a manager of Liverpool Football Club, that is what he'll be ultimately remembered for in the history books, not fighting H&G and not signing Degen.

Don't know why it bothers you so much, seriously I don't.

If you look back in this thread I have already said that Kenny, Gerrard and Carra should have protested the debt.

So you mean then all 3 were concerned about their contracts, am i understanding this is what you man?

So you mean then all 3 were concerned about their contracts, am i understanding this is what you man?

No mate, Carra and Gerrard have both admitted that they were probably wrong not to protest and gave their reasons, Houllier- I have no idea what he thought about Hicks and Gillett as he was long gone.

That's a back story S@int, its f**king irrelevant, what is relevant is what he achieved as a manager of Liverpool Football Club, that is what he'll be ultimately remembered for in the history books, not fighting H&G and not signing Degen.

Don't know why it bothers you so much, seriously I don't.

It bothers me because every time we discuss Rafa, you can guarantee there will be loads of people saying how hard he fought against the debt and Hicks and Gillett when he didn't.

Argue about his achievements and I am happy to discuss it, but I get sick of the same stories being propagated time after time when they are blatently untrue.

As I said in my first post in the this topic :- "I think Rafa gets a lot of undue credit which is probably why some people believe I don't like him. I actually do like him, I just didn't like a lot of what he did off the field. "

And more than disliking what he did off the field I dislike the fact that his supporters cannot accept he ever did anything wrong or made any mistake.

No mate, Carra and Gerrard have both admitted that they were probably wrong not to protest and gave their reasons, Houllier- I have no idea what he thought about Hicks and Gillett as he was long gone.

Probably wrong is an understatement, i would be ashamed to be honest, talking the talk how i love this club but turning a blind eye to the owners, Carra was to happy with the owners who gave him a contract he desired so i can see the reason why he kept schtum & backed Roy Hodgson  .

Back to Kenny as ambassador don't you think he should have been more vocal against the owners and thrown his weight behind Rafa who he could clearly see was fighting for the future of the club?

If you are going to be critical of Rafa then you have to be just as critical of Kenny as i see no difference.

Probably wrong is an understatement, i would be ashamed to be honest, talking the talk how i love this club but turning a blind eye to the owners, Carra was to happy with the owners who gave him a contract he desired so i can see the reason why he kept schtum & backed Roy Hodgson  .

Back to Kenny as ambassador don't you think he should have been more vocal against the owners and thrown his weight behind Rafa who he could clearly see was fighting for the future of the club?

If you are going to be critical of Rafa then you have to be just as critical of Kenny as i see no difference.

As I have said a few times now in this thread, Kenny was just as wrong as Rafa in not speaking out. As Rafa wouldn't, I hoped Kenny OR SOMEONE would.

But again, I have not read any praise for Kenny in protesting the debt while the myth of Benitez goes on.

As I have said a few times now in this thread, Kenny was just as wrong as Rafa in not speaking out. As Rafa wouldn't, I hoped Kenny OR SOMEONE would.

But you are not critical of Kenny as much you are of Rafa, why would that be?

To all Kenny is Mr Liverpool, that's why he should have been more vocal than the Spaniard who was just a foreign manager who just so happened to get the Shankly way.

It bothers me because every time we discuss Rafa, you can guarantee there will be loads of people saying how hard he fought against the debt and Hicks and Gillett when he didn't.

Who made us aware of the debt mate ??

End of the day I couldn't care a F**k if Rafa fought the debt or not, I don't care if he took a sh*t in Tom Hicks briefcase I really don't.

What I care about is, he was one of us, he identified with us, he wanted what all of us wanted for Liverpool FC and that was to be as successful as possible.

I don't blame Rafa for any of that, because we all get sucked into that the moment we decided to follow Liverpool FC.

That's all that matters to me and thats why I'll remember him as the best manager to lead this club in the last two decades.

But you are not critical of Kenny as much you are of Rafa, why would that be?

To all Kenny is Mr Liverpool, that's why he hould have been more vocal than the Spaniard who was just a foreign manager who just so happened to get the Shankly way.

Because Kenny as far as I know hasn't been continually praised for protesting against the debt. If he had been I would be equally critical and just as eager to point out the truth..

Who made us aware of the debt mate ??

End of the day I couldn't care a f**k if Rafa fought the debt or not, I don't care if he took a sh*t in Tom Hicks briefcase I really don't.

What I care about is, he was one of us, he identified with us, he wanted what all of us wanted for Liverpool FC and that was to be as successful as possible.

I don't blame Rafa for any of that, because we all get sucked into that the moment we decided to follow Liverpool FC.

That's all that matters to me and thats why I'll remember him as the best manager to lead this club in the last two decades.

It was an article in the paper stating that the club would not be bought debt free but with borrowed money that first drew my attention to the debt. I then did some research and someone with similar views had just started a thread on RAWK about it. I was one of the first to raise the issue on newkit (my old forum)   

Up to you what you think mate, I am happy with Kenny (I know you are too )

Because Kenny as far as I know hasn't been continually praised for protesting against the debt. If he had been I would be equally critical and just as eager to point out the truth..

Spoken like a true politican S@int.

Point out why Kenny never spoke out about the debt, owners & Purslow? was he hoping Purslow would give him Rafa's the Job over Roy if he stayed quiet?

Why he never backed Rafa when Rafa needed it most?.

Spoken like a true politican S@int.

Point out why Kenny never spoke out about the debt, owners & Purslow? was he hoping Purslow would give him Rafa's the Job over Roy if he stayed quiet?

Why he never backed Rafa when Rafa needed it most?.

No idea why he didn't speak out, I think he should have just as I think Rafa should have.

Why do you think people continually argue that Rafa protested the debt when he obviously didn't?

This thread is one lads battle against the truth. Its actually funny to read. And even when the poster is shown to be wrong he continues to battle away at least you have to admire that. Not to give up no matter how wrong he is

When I think of Rafa I don't think of him publicly doing or not doing this or that or suggesting whether or when a protest should occur.

I think of Olympiakos, Juventus, Chelsea, Milan in Istanbul, twatting Madrid, beating Barcelona, beating Inter Milan, the list goes on. I remember us being feared throughout Europe. I could go on and on and on.

Were we even ranked number 1 in Europe at one point??

Main thing is though I remember it was F***ing brilliant to be a Liverpool fan. Rafa Benitez memories make me smile.

Same with Houllier and the treble, doing Roma, Porto and Barca and that win against Arsenal in the cup final, the League Cup win against the scum, people were actually scared of us.

But lets vilify ex-managers for a bit of nonsensical hearsay that doesn't matter one iota anyway.

Some strange support out there I must say.

May as well change the topic title to "Benitez v Kenny" going on the order of the last page or so.

Never fond of comparing managers, even less so when playing them off against one another to score points.

No idea why he didn't speak out, I think he should have just as I think Rafa should have.

Why do you think people continually argue that Rafa protested the debt when he obviously didn't?

So why be over critical of Rafa and not have a pop Kenny given every opportunity.

Why?

Cant you see how you are coming across?

 S@int was/is a bit of an expert on the debt/previous owners and he always maintained Rafa got undue praise for his "battle" with Hicks and Gillette. I think he's right which will surprise nobody I shouldn't think. I prefer to discuss his prowess with us as a manager though rather than get involved in all that (I don't really understand much of the financial stuff).

 Nobody really answered the point from earlier about how if Rafa did such an unbelieveable job with us and Inter Milan, he is still out of work the best part of two seasons later. I can't fathom that one for the life of me, because as I said earlier if the likes of Mourinhoi, Hiddink, Guardiola, Deschamps, Ancellotti etc etc are ever available, a big job magically becomes available too.

So why be over critical of Rafa and not have a pop Kenny given every opportunity.

Why?

Cant you see how you are coming across?

Not sure if you can't read or can't understand what I am trying to explain to you.

I don't keep raising the point that Kenny never protested the debt , because no one is trying to say that Kenny protested against the debt.

I do keep raising the point that Rafa never protested the debt, because people keep saying that Rafa protested against the debt when he didn't.

simple.

So why be over critical of Rafa and not have a pop Kenny given every opportunity.

Why?

Cant you see how you are coming across?

 I can't get why this bit is difficult to understand, even i get this part. Nobody is saying Kenny protested against the owners (I actually said he definately should protest back in the day, I said he should lead the fans and that we should boycott going into the ground). He didn't and I still think it was a mistake. The difference is though, nobody says that he did protest about the debt. Rafa on the other hand often gets bigged up as the arch fighter against the owners. If S@int or anyone else doesn't agree with that, then they are bound to argue it. Whilst arguing it it would seem pointless to throw random other names in "And Jan Molby never protested either, neither did Aldo" (although both may have for all I know), because nobody is saying they did.

 Seems simple enough to me.

 Anyway back onto the football, two trophies in six seasons given he didn'thave fortunes to spend wasn't too bad an effort. Yes he had the services of Gerrard in his prime (and Imho he was one of the top three or four players in the World at the time), but he did run into a rejuvenated Chelsea under Mourinho, and for a season the strongest Arsenal team in history.

An expert good one mick. He ain't coming across as an expert here just someone who has a strong dislike of Rafa but that is already known. You can't mention Rafa without saint straight in to slate him

An expert good one mick. He ain't coming across as an expert here just someone who has a strong dislike of Rafa but that is already known. You can't mention Rafa without saint straight in to slate him

 No he is an expert most definately. If S@int was on mastermind, I'd advise him to take the Hicks/Gillette era and the finances as his chosen specialised subject, he's got a f*cking encyclopaedic knowledge of it all. Believe me, as deep as you or anyone else wants to go into it, he will have the documentation and proof to back up his argument. You could make the point that it doesn't really matter whether Rafa protested about the debt or not (I personally don't think it's that significant), but if you argue that he did, it's one that you won't win. I should know, I've seen hundreds try on Newkit.