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      Houllier v Benitez

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      HeighwayToHeaven
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #253: Apr 11, 2012 07:43:36 pm
      You can't mention Rafa without saint straight in to slate him

      Like you do with Kenny.  :f_tongueincheek:
      s@int
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #254: Apr 11, 2012 07:43:48 pm
      An expert good one mick. He ain't coming across as an expert here just someone who has a strong dislike of Rafa but that is already known. You can't mention Rafa without saint straight in to slate him

      Slate him? So pointing out facts is wrong now, even though you were just pointing facts out that Kenny had got 2 points out of 8 when he managed Blackburn. That it was 59 years since we had been on such a bad run, in virtually every F***ing thread. Don't make me laugh too hard Corbally I have just had a big meal.
      corballyred
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #255: Apr 11, 2012 07:52:59 pm
      I dont pretend like you saint my feelings on Kenny as manager are well known. But i dont F***ing slate him like you do with Rafa and then say no i actually really think he is great.

      Look saint just have the balls to say what you really think you dont like Rafa we can all see it. Your dislike of the man has defo blinded you.

      Wont go into it but your debate with blood about Rafa and sos was extremely one sided.  Think you should go back and read it again.
      s@int
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #256: Apr 11, 2012 08:01:59 pm
      I dont pretend like you saint my feelings on Kenny as manager are well known. But i dont f**king slate him like you do with Rafa and then say no i actually really think he is great.

      Look saint just have the balls to say what you really think you dont like Rafa we can all see it. Your dislike of the man has defo blinded you.

      Wont go into it but your debate with blood about Rafa and sos was extremely one sided.  Think you should go back and read it again.

      I explained my honest views on Rafa in my first post in this thread.

      I wouldn't really want either back as I am happy with Kenny, but i would choose Rafa ahead of Houllier. I just disagree with the adulation Rafa gets compared to Houllier.

      I think this is because many fans were taken up with the fight against Hicks and Gillett and saw Rafa as an ally in that fight rather than anything else. Hicks and Gillett became a ready excuse for every failure, every bad buy, every defeat, while the heart problems that Houllier suffered tend to be dismissed.  Certainly going off their respective records there is no reason I can see why Houllier is spoken of with such disdain in comparison to Rafa.

      I personally believe we sacked Houllier a season to late and Rafa a season too early. Houllier saved his job and got a great pay off because he won the league cup the year before when perhaps it might have been better if he had left that season, while another season under Rafa might have shown more clearly if he had indeed lost the plot and the dressing room or just mislaid them. I would certainly not have rewarded either with a new contract at the time we did.

      I think Rafa gets a lot of undue credit which is probably why some people believe I don't like him. I actually do like him, I just didn't like a lot of what he did off the field.

      I didn't like the fact that he told Liverpool players not to sign a new contract until he had, effectively trying to hold Liverpool football club and Liverpool players to ransom.

      I didn't like the way he conducted himself when negotiating a new contract taking advantage of the fact that we had no CEO as Parry had been pushed out and Perslow not yet appointed.

      I didn't like the fact that he asked Liverpool supporters not to protest about the debt inside the ground.

      I didn't like the fact that he allied himself with Hicks.

      I didn't like the fact that he never protested the debt, yet people insist on saying he fought for the club, yet all he fought for was more money, a better contract , more power and his job.

      It doesn't matter what evidence you produce, how many times you point facts out to the more avid supporters of Rafa it is just ignored the abuse starts and the same claims are made again and again as if to drown out the truth.

      Rafa had the benefit of one of the best players in the world in his prime (Gerrard) brought in some great players yet won nothing in his last 4 years, made a bad mistake over Alonso, we finished 7th in the table, he fell out with anyone and everyone, and while it was disappointing that he left in the way he did...... it was hardly surprising.

      Houllier brought in some great players struggled to cope after his heart attack and made a huge mistake over Anelka, brought in some poor players, lost the dressing room and even though we won a cup in his previous season the writing was on the wall and imo he should have gone a season before he did.

      Sadly for both coming second in the league was the beginning of the end.



      If you believe I lost that debate , I suggest you go and read it again. The fact remains Rafa asked supporters not to protest at games...fact.

      I am happy Kenny is back and sorry for you that you can't appreciate him and be as happy as I am, but that's your problem not mine.




         
      corballyred
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #257: Apr 11, 2012 08:13:48 pm
      During for some reason you keep ignoring that.  That seemed to be the over whelming view of the fans at the time.

      What we needed at the time was ex managers or players to speak out they didn't and that really angered me as did Carragher and Gerrards silence.

      On the playing side only Reina and Torres spoke out.
      RC9
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #258: Apr 11, 2012 08:15:49 pm
      I pick Hodgson.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #259: Apr 11, 2012 08:17:05 pm
      I don't know what the bigger sin is, is it to have the clubs best interest at heart and keep quiet about the rape being carried out against the club or making some aware that the club we love most is stricken financially and could go bust?.

      You decide.


       Nobody really answered the point from earlier about how if Rafa did such an unbelieveable job with us and Inter Milan, he is still out of work the best part of two seasons later. I can't fathom that one for the life of me, because as I said earlier if the likes of Mourinhoi, Hiddink, Guardiola, Deschamps, Ancellotti etc etc are ever available, a big job magically becomes available too.


      Mick have you ruled out the possibility that Morrati placed a clause in Rafa's pay off where he could not manage a  club for 2 years? or have you ruled out maybe Rafa learnt his lesson by being bitten not once but twice by bullshitting owners and that he may just wait for the right project instead of jumping into bed with any club?.

      Or have you ruled out the fact some cant match Rafa's ambition?.

      Or even the fact that you are dismissing the offers from clubs in spain for Rafa's services is slightly nieve in my opinion as you are trying to paint a picture of a tainted manger.

      As for the Managers you mention Mick, Jose has won one Cup with the obscene amount spent at Real,Hiddink is tearing it up in Russia,Guardiola is great at Barca but may struggle abroad,Deschamps and Ancellotti are doing wonders in a league where Houllier won the league on the bounce with Lyon,Great.
      bigmick
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #260: Apr 11, 2012 08:41:52 pm
      I don't know what the bigger sin is, is it to have the clubs best interest at heart and keep quiet about the rape being carried out against the club or making some aware that the club we love most is stricken financially and could go bust?.

      You decide.


      Mick have you ruled out the possibility that Morrati placed a clause in Rafa's pay off where he could not manage a  club for 2 years? or have you ruled out maybe Rafa learnt his lesson by being bitten not once but twice by bullshitting owners and that he may just wait for the right project instead of jumping into bed with any club?.

      Or have you ruled out the fact some cant match Rafa's ambition?.

      Or even the fact that you are dismissing the offers from clubs in spain for Rafa's services is slightly nieve in my opinion as you are trying to paint a picture of a tainted manger.

      As for the Managers you mention Mick, Jose has won one Cup with the obscene amount spent at Real,Hiddink is tearing it up in Russia,Guardiola is great at Barca but may struggle abroad,Deschamps and Ancellotti are doing wonders in a league where Houllier won the league on the bounce with Lyon,Great.


       I have discounted the 2 year gardening leave thing, simply because given Rafa has never mentioned it himself and has reportedly spoken with a few clubs, I think it's unlikely. As for the other managers, I don't think it's seriously possible anymore to compare mourinho with Rafa. I know many of us used to argue Rafa was the better manager when we had him (I did all the time) but the reality is their records don't compare. The other managers mentioned have had success wherever they've been, and as I say whenever they are available a club seems to step up pretty quick.

       Ultimately my opinion on Rafa is utterly irrelevent. I'm simply asking the question that if he's as much of a messiah as some on here suggest ("best manager in Europe" etc etc), then it's a wonder no owner has snapped him up. Either he isn't actually the best manager in Europe, or they are all idiots like me.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #261: Apr 11, 2012 08:58:03 pm
      Mick unless you are Manuel García Quilón  Rafa's agent you & me are  not privy to information on which clubs have or have not asked Rafa to become their manager, we can only speculate.

      Also how many times have we heard the man himself (Rafa) state that he wants to manage a team in the Premier League which can match his ambition too,

      Like i said unless you are Manuel García Quilón you know nothing about why Rafa has not been back to work in the past 2 years & let be honest 2 years out of footy management is not much really considering the Kings abscence from the game who has done well to end out trophy drought after 6 years.

      Can i just ask and those who read this please do not take this as an anti Kenny question.

      After leaving Blackburn then going to newcastle why was not Kenny approached by the club for the Hotseat knowing what he already achieved  with us?
      bigmick
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #262: Apr 11, 2012 09:03:52 pm
      Mick unless you are Manuel García Quilón  Rafa's agent you are privy to information on which clubs have or have not asked Rafa to become their manager.

      Also how many times have we heard the man himself (Rafa) state that he wants to manage a team in the Premier League which can match his ambition too,

      Like i said unless you are Manuel García Quilón you know nothing about why Rafa has not been back to work in the past 2 years & let be honest 2 years out of footy management is not much really considering the Kings abscence from the game who has done well to end out trophy drought after 6 years.

      Can i just ask and those who read this please do not take this as an anti Kenny question.

      After leaving Blackburn then going to newcastle why was not Kenny approached by the club for the Hotseat knowing what he already achieved  with us?


       No it's a fair enough point, neither me nor anyone else knows for sure that Rafa hasn't been offered every job going. That said, we DO know that nobody has made him an offer he can't refuse (otherwise he'd have taken it presumeably). If he really is the "best manager in Europe" though, I'm surprised nobody has snapped him up sharpish. Chelsea for instance have given two men the job while Rafa has been available, and they would appear to fit the bill.

       As for Kenny I've no idea why somebody didn't snap him up. If I was guessing though, I think the thoughts might have been that he was kind of washed up and drained after what he'd been through. Might even have been something in it for all I know.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #263: Apr 11, 2012 09:07:14 pm
      Nobody really answered the point from earlier about how if Rafa did such an unbelieveable job with us and Inter Milan, he is still out of work the best part of two seasons later. I can't fathom that one for the life of me, because as I said earlier if the likes of Mourinhoi, Hiddink, Guardiola, Deschamps, Ancellotti etc etc are ever available, a big job magically becomes available too.

      Our current manager was out of a job for a decade, he must be sh*t then  :f_tongueincheek:
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #264: Apr 11, 2012 09:11:59 pm

       No it's a fair enough point, neither me nor anyone else knows for sure that Rafa hasn't been offered every job going. That said, we DO know that nobody has made him an offer he can't refuse (otherwise he'd have taken it presumeably). If he really is the "best manager in Europe" though, I'm surprised nobody has snapped him up sharpish. Chelsea for instance have given two men the job while Rafa has been available, and they would appear to fit the bill.

       As for Kenny I've no idea why somebody didn't snap him up. If I was guessing though, I think the thoughts might have been that he was kind of washed up and drained after what he'd been through. Might even have been something in it for all I know.

      Just as Rafa turned down Real Madrid knowing how Florentino Perez treats his managers he has the same understanding of Roman Abromovich, Perez sacked Vincent  Del-bosque after delivering 2 f**king Champions League victories, 2! & what did Abromovich do to Jose & Ancelotti after what they delivered?

      Back to kenny i don't think he was ever washed up mate, not after giving a club like Blackburn a PL title, some chairmen just did not fancy him in the PL like Some Chairmen don't fancy Rafa, its that simple really.
      s@int
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #265: Apr 11, 2012 09:12:38 pm
      Mick unless you are Manuel García Quilón  Rafa's agent you & me are  not privy to information on which clubs have or have not asked Rafa to become their manager, we can only speculate.

      Also how many times have we heard the man himself (Rafa) state that he wants to manage a team in the Premier League which can match his ambition too,

      Like i said unless you are Manuel García Quilón you know nothing about why Rafa has not been back to work in the past 2 years & let be honest 2 years out of footy management is not much really considering the Kings abscence from the game who has done well to end out trophy drought after 6 years.

      Can i just ask and those who read this please do not take this as an anti Kenny question.

      After leaving Blackburn then going to newcastle why was not Kenny approached by the club for the Hotseat knowing what he already achieved  with us?

      From memory
      Kenny was approached by Liverpool while still manager of Blackburn mate. He says it was one of the biggest disappointment of his life that nothing came of it. He said he doesn't know why nothing came of it, but it virtually ended his relationship with Blackburn as he turned down a new contract to enable him to return.

      Something on those lines anyway.

      Edit - Finally found it. 

      WAITING 20 YEARS TO BE OFFERED THE JOB AGAIN
      After resigning I went to Florida. If Liverpool had asked me to carry on as manager the moment I returned, I’d have jumped at the chance because I felt my head had cleared.

      Sadly, Liverpool never asked. In 1993, I was Blackburn manager when (Liverpool’s) Peter Robinson asked me: ‘When are you coming back, Kenny?’
      ‘Peter, you just have to ask,’ I replied.

      Liverpool never phoned, though, and regret has been my constant companion ever since. Anfield was home; Ewood Park never felt like home.

      Robinson called me again two years later. ‘We just want to know if you’d be interested in coming back,’ he said.
      I couldn’t get to the meeting fast enough. I sat down and Peter announced: ‘We don’t think the time’s right.’ Never in my life have I felt such anger.



      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1345945/Liverpool-legend-Kenny-Dalglish-words.html#ixzz1rlZl7YUj
      « Last Edit: Apr 11, 2012 09:43:05 pm by s@int »
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #266: Apr 12, 2012 12:56:16 am
      S@int, why would Peter Robinson pull the rug under Kenny's feet twice? was Moore's holding something against Kenny, would love to really know why.

      Thanks for digging out the article too  :gt-happyup:
      s@int
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #267: Apr 12, 2012 02:12:46 am
      I would love to know too mate, Kenny doesn't say in his book. I presume the first approach was more in the way of a general enquiry than a real offer. Or maybe they just reconsidered Souness' position.

      The second one I think they must have bottled it like they did with Evans when Houllier came in. They probably asked Evans would he step back to first team coach if Kenny came back..... Evans unsurprisingly probably said no and so it became " We don’t think the time’s right".

      Kenny was very upset because he had burned his boats with Blackburn so he would be available to return too. (In his book, but not in the first excerpt I found)

      Edit - found a longer excerpt) Still doesn't explain why though.   

      The call was a pleasant surprise, a welcome reminder of my Liverpool home.

      It came through from reception at Ewood Park to inform me that Peter Robinson was at the ground, picking up tickets for the Liverpool game the following day, and he wanted to say ‘hello’.

      The date was April 2, 1993 and I’d been manager at Blackburn Rovers since October 1991, enjoying the task of rebuilding this famous old Lancashire mill-town club.

      Driving into Ewood, I saw PBR standing there, and all the Liverpool memories raced back – the European Cups, League titles, open-topped bus rides and non-stop banter.
       
      ‘‘Hop in, Peter, I’ll give you a lift back up to the car park,’’ I said.

      When he’d settled in the passenger seat, PBR turned to me and asked, ‘‘Kenny, when are you coming home?’’

      ‘‘What do you mean?’’

      ‘‘When are you coming back to Liverpool, Kenny?’’

      ‘‘Peter, you just have to ask.’’

      ‘‘OK,’’ he said.

      ‘‘It’s up to yourselves,’’ I added. ‘‘You just need to phone.’’

      PBR nodded, climbed out of the car and walked across to his. Liverpool never phoned, though, and regret has been my constant companion ever since. My hopes were lifted and dashed.

      I’d have leapt at the chance to rejoin Liverpool. The people at Blackburn were special, really ­unassuming, but Anfield was home.

      Ewood never felt like home.

      Before the start of the 1994–95 season, a year that was to climax so gloriously for Rovers with the Premier League title, the chairman, Robert Coar, called me into his office.

      ‘‘We want to give you a new contract, Kenny,’’ Robert said, pointing out that my current deal expired in October 1994.

      ‘‘No, I’m not signing.’’

      ‘‘Why?’’

      ‘‘I’ll honour my contract to October, but I’m not staying.’’

      ‘‘OK,’’ said the chairman. ‘‘You can take some gardening leave until October.’’

      I felt he was challenging me, not believing I’d stand down. ‘‘Aye, no problem,’’ I said and walked out.

      My time at Blackburn looked over. The next thing I knew, Ray Harford was on the phone, sounding nervous.

      ‘‘What’s going on?’’ he said.

      ‘‘Well, Ray, my contract is up in October and the board have asked me to sign a new one. I told them I’ll honour the contract I’ve got but I’m going no further.’’

      ‘‘You can’t do that,’’ said Ray, shocked.

      My hope was that Liverpool would come in for me. They’d have to move quickly, getting me in for pre-season and paying Rovers compensation to October.

      When I was on holiday, I got a phone-call from Liverpool.

      ‘‘Will you come and speak to us?’’ PBR asked.

      ‘‘Of course.’’

      ‘‘We just want to know whether you would be interested in coming back to the club,’’ Peter said.

      ‘‘Of course I am ­interested.’’

      I couldn’t pack fast enough, jumping on a plane and, once back in England, hurtling up to David Moores’ house.

      PBR, Roy Evans, Tom Saunders and David were already there. Scarcely had I sat down when Peter announced, ‘‘We don’t think the time’s right for you to come home.’’

      I was taken aback.

      ‘‘What?’’ I said.

      ‘‘We just don’t think the time’s right.’’

      ‘‘Why phone me and ask me to come back if you don’t think the time’s right?’’ I was furious. ‘‘I want to come back to Liverpool.

      ‘‘I wouldn’t be sitting here now otherwise. I did a good job the first time.’’

      Liverpool’s logic baffled me then, and still does now. Never before in all my life have I felt such anger. My stomach was churning as I got in the car and sped off to Anfield, of all places, because Paul was playing some game for Liverpool reserves.

      So what was the board playing at? Why lead me up the garden path and then shut the gate in front of me? So I returned to Robert.

      ‘‘Chairman, look, I’ll tell you what I’ll do,’’ I offered. ‘‘I’ll sign a contract ­extension to the end of the season and that’s me finished.’’

      And that’s what happened.
      « Last Edit: Apr 12, 2012 03:11:04 am by s@int »
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #268: Apr 12, 2012 02:58:51 am
      I will leave you to it mate..... you are obviously happier talking to yourself :D

      Edit
      Sorry mate, sounded much harsher than I intended on reading it back, I was just making a joke as I had to go anyway.... no offence intended.

      No problem. I am Rafa fan as you can see and an LFC fan, the combination of the two makes a blinding light.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #269: Apr 12, 2012 09:16:35 am
      Reading between the lines S@int i don't think Kenny had much support at the top then which i find very curious, i guess we will never know.
      StevieG80
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #270: Apr 19, 2012 08:23:04 am
      http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2012/04/lfc-fans-tell-fsg-sack-dalglish-and.html?

      This guy claims he carried out a poll on the whole Kenny V Raffa thing. I find his results kind of hard to believe given discussions on here and other forums.

      I commented on here as Darksec (by here i mean at the linked page)
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #271: Apr 19, 2012 08:28:45 am
      http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2012/04/lfc-fans-tell-fsg-sack-dalglish-and.html?

      This guy claims he carried out a poll on the whole Kenny V Raffa thing. I find his results kind of hard to believe given discussions on here and other forums.

      I commented on here as Darksec (by here i mean at the linked page)

      More sh*te from that Manc loving, tool-bag Kenwar who's anything but a Liverpool and spoon-feeds other wums on a daily basis. I'm actually amazed that any Red still visits that site or reads his anti-Red sh*te, to be honest.

      StevieG80
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #272: Apr 19, 2012 08:34:13 am
      Well plenty still comment. I didn't go to the site directly, usually use e-soccer site which links to all sites etc.
      craglad
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #273: Apr 20, 2012 08:25:44 pm
      Loved them both and each produced teams worthy of beating anyone on their day.

      But Houllier was never the same after his heart scare or atleast our performance wasn't. And Benitez had his hands full fighting on two fronts, the league and the yanks.

      I've ofter thought what if?

      What if Houllier never had health issues?

      What if Benitez had decent honest owners backing him?

      I honestly think one of them would of brought us the league if not both.
      StevieG80
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #274: Apr 20, 2012 09:27:44 pm
      Houllier pulled us out of the doldrums and Raffa took us to the next step, well till the end, but I think that Raffa needed a break for me after that and I think whoever gets him next will benefit from him having had some time out.
      I believe if it were not for all the issues Raffa would have delivered eventually if not sooner that was ever made possible
      MIRO
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      Re: Houllier v Benitez
      Reply #275: Apr 21, 2012 12:26:18 am
      The What Ifs eh?
      Yes...but they are all worth nothing more than the price of a cup of tea.


      Houllier v Benitez      ?   

      Paloma Faith or Lana Del Rey         ?


      Take your pick and each to his own.

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