Trending Topics

      Next match: LFC v Spurs [Premier League] Sun 5th May @ 4:30 pm
      Anfield

      Today is the 30th of April and on this date LFC's match record is P26 W15 D5 L6

      Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing

      Read 13793 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      sivapc
      • Banned
      • **

      • 238 posts | -25 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #92: Dec 21, 2009 01:02:13 pm
      i
      What is rubbish Xabi is one of the best in Europe at what he does if not the best, that is why Real went all out to buy him. Xabi was our best player last season he won the player of the year on here. Real are flying with Xabi ditating everything at the moment there.

      Xabi provided creativity to the team something we haven't got this season. Will you explain to me what is rubbish about that.

      ;D.. nothing

      you should know by now that

      praising lucas = sarcasm
      Eem
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 6,018 posts | 89 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #93: Dec 21, 2009 01:02:29 pm
      What is rubbish Xabi is one of the best in Europe at what he does if not the best, that is why Real went all out to buy him. Xabi was our best player last season he won the player of the year on here. Real are flying with Xabi ditating everything at the moment there.

      Xabi provided creativity to the team something we haven't got this season. Will you explain to me what is rubbish about that.

      Xabi was a massive loss, nobody is debating that. He was key to everything we did last season, but he is not the only reason things are going badly right now.
      Don't forget the likes of Kuyt had a fantastic season last season and now are playing like sh*te. That's not necessarily because Xabi left.

      There are a number of reasons why we are playing crap this season, players off form, injuries, poor team selections, poor substitutions, and of course that we lost a key player.

      It isn't just the sale of Alonso that is costing us our season.
      corballyred
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 17,707 posts | 307 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #94: Dec 21, 2009 01:17:44 pm
      Ya it is not the only reason Eem, but is a major factor, we have no one to give Gerrard or Torres the quality passes they need this year.
      fazza21
      • Forum Emlyn Hughes
      • ****

      • 814 posts | 29 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #95: Dec 21, 2009 01:24:01 pm
      I've seen this on quite a few threads now people talking about Rafas masterplan - driving the yanks out etc.

      Is this a joke or are you actually being serious? I don't come on the forum every day so its hard to tell if sarcasm is being used or if its an inside joke or what, but the bits and bobs i have seen, they actually look as if people are being deadly serious.

      So rafa is losing games on purpose so the fans turn on the yanks? First of all, thats illegal. And secondly, how stupid are some of you. If Rafa won 38 games out of 38 games with the current squad, the fans would still want the yanks out. End of the day, a promise is a promise, and they haven't kept theirs.

      Seriously, some people on here chat absolute rubbish at times. Theres only 3 or 4 people who speak any sense.
      stuey
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 36,010 posts | 3953 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #96: Dec 21, 2009 01:26:24 pm
      Alonso left because of rafa and rafa should accept that it was his fault.                                                                                                    
                                                                  
      I read the first few words above and and dismissed the post as the bullshit it is.
      The manager tried in vain to persuade Xabi to stay and the fact is well documented, the player always wanted to return to Spain and his wife even more so.
      In his last season here the lad really shone and his value increased accordingly so when enquiries were made the manager had little option but to let him go for mega bucks.
      That completely dismantles your opening preposition, the remainder of your post would be a doddle if I could be arsed.
      LFC9
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,277 posts | 22 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #97: Dec 21, 2009 01:45:27 pm
      Alonso left because of rafa and rafa should accept that it was his fault.


      Bullshit!
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #98: Dec 21, 2009 03:57:56 pm
      Theres only 3 or 4 people who speak any sense.

      I speak non sense, does that count  :f_tongueincheek:
      jindaldhruv
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,805 posts | 24 
      • Football is my religion. Steven Gerrard is my God.
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #99: Dec 21, 2009 03:59:21 pm
      Alonso left because of rafa and rafa should accept that it was his fault.
      ::)
      Alonso maybe a big factor, but he is not the only reason we are losing.
      His absence is not the reason our players are playing sh*te.
      So, yeah even if we do miss him badly, there's no reason why we shouldn't be playing better than we cureently are, even if we can't avail his services.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #100: Dec 21, 2009 04:04:15 pm
      Alonso left because of rafa and rafa should accept that it was his fault.

      Ermmm lets look at the whole Alonso saga with direct quotes from both Rafa and Alonso themselves and not unquoted stories created by the media.

      Even stuff like the Xabi saga is widely painted as all Rafa's fault, but here's the actual facts, and these are facts, these have all been quoted and reported in the media, wheras the supposed feud has never been actually quoted from either Xabi OR Rafa, all Rafa and Xabi have ever implied is that they had a professional working relationship.

      Xabi says the tax situation has worried him - that anyone would notice and think about it.
      Rafa turns dowm multiple large offers, in the face of constant media pressure from Real.
      Xabi says on more than one occasion that he wants his future sorted one way or another and that he'd be happy/contented to stay with us.
      Xabi then hands in a transfer request - directly contradicting himself - Rafa accepts an astronomical bid and he is sold.

      Of course, the Barry affair surely had an effect but again the facts, rather than speculation, no matter how justified - all the Xabi Rafa feud stuff is circumstantial and speculative, what is being laid out here out is undeniable fact.

      Rafa wanted both.
      Rafa ended up deciding he'd rather have Barry, having been forced into either/or.
      Rafa has no say in negotiations - that and youth have only been his job this season, which of course is another massive factor that could have helped us save money and build a better squad, but that's off point so apologies.
      Rafa tries to sell Alonso to fund Barry - no-one is interested in Alonso at £15million or so, bar a last minute Arsenal bid at £14million, when the asking price had been made clear, and was stressed as non-negotiable, which makes sense because we needed that much to fund Barry.
      Xabi then has his best season in a red shirt, with a steel in the tackle and a level of consistency that he'd struggled to find, certainly since his first 2 great seasons. The difference in performance is blatantly obvious from the difference in fees and status that said season earns him.

      I'm prepared to bet that last season will remain Xabi's best, but the point is that Rafa didn't try or want, or in any way encourage his sale this season. If it was 100% down to a falling out between Rafa and Xabi, then it was Xabi who ultimately put personal reasons over football reasons - again, he contradicted earlier claims and handed in his request.

      Ohh My bad your correct Alonso leaving was all Rafa's fault and he should take the blame.  :f_tongueincheek:
      YANK_LFC_FAN
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • Started Topic
      • 3,507 posts | 426 
      • Timid men prefer the calm of despotism!
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #101: Dec 21, 2009 04:04:40 pm
      I dont think, in anyway, that their was some secret plan by Rafa, to get rid of Alonso on purpose to create leverage against the Owners.  I dont think that.  

      Losing Alonso was almost an accident. It was a whole drawn out transfer saga I think words were said, Alonso got pissed off at Liverpool for not signing him straight away, the Owners certainly had their hands in it so I dont blame Rafa 100%.  I also think Alonso, was pulled away by friends and agents and business people.  I do think that if Rafa had gone to Alonso personally and asked him too stay, he probably would of, but I dont think he did or would do that.

      It was a business deal gone bad and we ended up holding the bag.
      torreSandhuNo9
      • Banned
      • **

      • 185 posts | -2 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #102: Dec 21, 2009 04:08:32 pm
      Alonso is the reason we are losing but we gotta get over him, he aint coming back he loves it at Madrid. It was Rafa's fault he left cause of his pursue of shitty Gareth F***ing Barry but Alonso didnt help cause he made up his mind too soon that he wasnt wanted
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #103: Dec 21, 2009 04:10:58 pm
      Alonso is the reason we are losing but we gotta get over him, he aint coming back he loves it at Madrid. It was Rafa's fault he left cause of his pursue of shitty Gareth F***ing Barry but Alonso didnt help cause he made up his mind too soon that he wasnt wanted

      Well some say Rafa only wanted Gareth Barry because he was very versatile, I feel the same about Duck Tape perhaps Rafa should have bought a roll of that instead in hindsight. ;)
      ayrton77
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 13,775 posts | 627 
      • © Established Quality Since 1977
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #104: Dec 21, 2009 04:11:30 pm
      Alonso is the reason we are losing but we gotta get over him, he aint coming back he loves it at Madrid. It was Rafa's fault he left cause of his pursue of shitty Gareth F***ing Barry but Alonso didnt help cause he made up his mind too soon that he wasnt wanted

      Alonso is not the reason we are losing, he isn't lining up against us every week and scoring against us, is he?

      Yes, there's been a gap in midfield where he used to play, but the eleven players we've been lining up each match should be more than capable of winning more games than they've been doing.

      In my opinion, we should stop reminiscing on Alonso's departure and concentrate on the the players we do have, as well as the poor performances they've been putting in, simply not good enough.
      BigRed1978
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,874 posts | 51 
      • Y.N.W.A
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #105: Dec 21, 2009 04:14:18 pm
      Xabi Alonso had ONE great season.

      Big F***ing deal, quit bitching and get on with it.
      torreSandhuNo9
      • Banned
      • **

      • 185 posts | -2 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #106: Dec 21, 2009 04:19:40 pm
      Alonso is not the reason we are losing, he isn't lining up against us every week and scoring against us, is he?

      Yes, there's been a gap in midfield where he used to play, but the eleven players we've been lining up each match should be more than capable of winning more games than they've been doing.

      In my opinion, we should stop reminiscing on Alonso's departure and concentrate on the the players we do have, as well as the poor performances they've been putting in, simply not good enough.

      That's better said, I think the gap left by Alonso is huge and I dont think Lucas is capable of covering. I also think Gerrard feels this because he likes to play a free role and with Lucas there he feels he has to cover almost two positions if you like. Alosno was mcuh reassuring for Stevie he said it himself that he loved playing with him. IMO I reckon Rafa should play Aquilani in a deep midfield role cause he's got the passing ability and creativity to be that 'Alonso' type player we're missing and it would free Steve up
      Xabi Alonso had ONE great season.

      Big f**king deal, quit bitching and get on with it.

      That's what you think, do you watch any matches?

      He was the balance of our attack and defence and he started every single attack we made. And correct me if i'm wrong Alonso is the first ever player to complete 1000 successful passes in the Premiership is he not ??
      BigRed1978
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,874 posts | 51 
      • Y.N.W.A
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #107: Dec 21, 2009 04:21:10 pm
      Lucas was never asked to try fill Xabi's role, Rafa employed him there because he had no alternative.

      He wanted Gareth Barry but we all know how that turned out and by then Xabi was well on his way to Madrid so he had to use Lucas.

      A damn fine job he's done there too given the circumstances and I'll be the first to admit he doesn't have Xabi's eye for a killer pass but we also have more than one player capable of passing a football.

      I agree that Aquilani is probably the answer and i think he'll be better than Xabi was but until he's properly fit and has a stack of games behind him we won't know.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #108: Dec 21, 2009 04:22:44 pm
      Yes, there's been a gap in midfield where he used to play,

      Thats because Alonso was the Pass Masster Ayrton  :f_whistle:
      BigRed1978
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,874 posts | 51 
      • Y.N.W.A
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #109: Dec 21, 2009 04:24:41 pm
      Thats because Alonso was the Pass Masster Ayrton  :f_whistle:

      And we're in the gutter once again ;)
      torreSandhuNo9
      • Banned
      • **

      • 185 posts | -2 
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #110: Dec 21, 2009 04:25:27 pm
      Lucas was never asked to try fill Xabi's role, Rafa employed him there because he had no alternative.

      He wanted Gareth Barry but we all know how that turned out and by then Xabi was well on his way to Madrid so he had to use Lucas.

      A damn fine job he's done there too given the circumstances and I'll be the first to admit he doesn't have Xabi's eye for a killer pass but we also have more than one player capable of passing a football.

      I think Lucas is sh*t. Simple as that, I would rather play Spearing or Plessis that Lucas. Lucas has not done a good job, he is absolutely sh*t why are people sticking up for him? Would Lucas get into any other top ten premierhsip team? No! I would rather play with 10 men than have Lucas, that's how low I think of him
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #111: Dec 21, 2009 04:27:03 pm
      I would rather play with 10 men than have Lucas, that's how low I think of him

      He probably thinks even lower of you considering the wages he is on playing for one of the biggest clubs in world football to be fair.
      ayrton77
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 13,775 posts | 627 
      • © Established Quality Since 1977
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #112: Dec 21, 2009 04:27:42 pm
      Lucas was never asked to try fill Xabi's role, Rafa employed him there because he had no alternative.

      He wanted Gareth Barry but we all know how that turned out and by then Xabi was well on his way to Madrid so he had to use Lucas.

      A damn fine job he's done there too given the circumstances and i'll be the first to admit he doesn't have Xabi's eye for a killer pass but we also have more than one player capable of passing a football.

      Sums the situation up well, I feel.

      Lucas certainly hasn't played any worse than the rest of the team this season, he's been solid and shown more assurance than last year, that's for sure. To hear some fans, you'd think Rafa was playing Lucas out of spite rather than the fact that we didn't have any fit alternative.

      Anyway, the team has been missing the right balance, but our run of terrible form goes further than that, and certainly further than the departure of one player.

      Players, manager and owners (even if they'll never do it) need to have a long look at themselves and ask what does this club mean to them. They also need to realise the responsibility of being at a club of our stature, with the greatest fans in the world, and start playing out of their skin.

      Even if they lose or draw, what we ask before everything else is 100% effort for 90 minutes every week.
      « Last Edit: Dec 21, 2009 04:36:45 pm by ayrton77 »
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #113: Dec 21, 2009 04:29:36 pm
      Plenty to consider here other than the loss of one player.


      So, the great Rafa debate rages on, which prompts me to take a look at all the  factors that have contributed to our indifferent start to the season. Call me deluded, say I'm wearing rose tinted specs, tell me I need a book a trip to spec savers by all means for arguing Rafa Benitez should not shoulder all the responsibility for our current plight and that maybe, just maybe, some of the following are having some sort of direct impact that has been detrimental to our start to the season, especially when all the contributing factors are combined together.

      Board Room Wrangles, Uncertainty Of Ownership/Investment

      Now with all the negativity coming from our boardroom with tales of Hicks & Gillet at each others throats, Uncertainty over ownership I.E are they looking to sell the club as a going concern or merely looking for Investment ?. Players being sold and the money disappearing to service our debt etc etc. This Uncertainty has to be seen as having a negative impact on the club I mean lets be honest its hardly going to instill belief and confidence is it ?. In any business that has negativity and uncertainty in the board room that in itself like a cancer will spread from the top down over until it hits the workshop floor or in our case, has an impact on the Manager/Coaches/Playing Staff.

      Pre-Season

      No investment in the squad over the summer basically amounted to replacing our outgoings like for like, despite widely reported suggestions of a £20million transfer budget. That money however seems to have gone on renewing existing players contracts, which now as far as I'm aware makes us unique in world football, in being a club that counts standard contract extensions for established existing players as part of our transfer budget. If reports are to believed, It has even been suggested that we need to sell Babel in order to fund a new contract for Reina so that would mean Rafa is not only being forced into selling to buy he is also being forced into selling to offer improved contracts to existing squad members.

      Our big summer signings,  Aquilani, Who we bought on the understanding that he would be fit by September/end of August. That was the information relayed to Rafa via a medical examination when he signed however when we eventually got him to our very own medical staff, we find out that in fact he won't be back until late November. None the less Rafa has said he would have have still signed Aquilani anyway, but of course the major difference is that if Rafa had signed Aquilani knowing full well he'd be out until late November he could have looked at other options in preseason/training etc, had time to work on slightly different tactics or play Gerrard in central midfield more during the preseason.

      Glen Johnson people are attacking Rafa over the fee we paid for Johnson and given some of our defensive frailties are using Johnson as a prime example that Rafa got it wrong in signing him. Taking into perspective the whole situation, Glen has not had any real game time in a settled injury free consistent back 4, so that leaves me of the opinion its far too early to judge whether Glen has been a successful signing or not, however from what I have seen the lad has all the right credentials and ingredients to be a success here and if he chips in with a few goals over the next five years and manages to help us shut a few out I'd say his transfer fee will be well justified.

      The lack of money in the summer and indeed last season is just the tip of an iceberg of problems emanating from the top, from on-going boardroom squabless, the likes of which saw Jose Mourinho's Chelsea struggle for any type of form and also had a similar effect on Martin Jol's Spurs who I'm sure we all seen collapse collapse from 5th in the league down to the relegation spots. Ramos was ultimately brought in, in place of Jol who revives Spurs once again briefly, who again are undone by some squad mutterings of discontent and boardroom doubts that see Spurs back in the relegation spots, most notably after the squad was ravaged by a food poisoning outbreak. Spurs then part company with Ramos and finally get in Harry Redknapp and I ask in all honesty, is he really a truly vastly superior manager to Jol or even Ramos ?, however Redknapp gets them back to where Jol had them in the first place. The big difference now compared to Ramos that is, is that Redknapp had the full backing of his board. That for me makes a massive difference. Find me a club anywhere in Europe that is competing both Domestically & in Europe, winning things along the way with a board who are not 100% behind their manager, go on, find me one, just one. The only one I can remember in recent times was Fabio Capello at Real Madrid, Capello, one of the greatest managers in the modern game at Real Madrid who have a transfer budget to rival any club in the world. I personally would go with the notion that our Board/Owners are far worse than any of the above.

      Bad Start

      So there's several kicks in the teeth before we even get the season underway. Granted, we started the season very inconsistently, though we were denied a clear penalty for what would have been a vital point against Spurs. Injuries however are a big factor right from the very start as our vice captain (Carragher)  for some strange reason unknown to man decides to almost break Skrtel's jaw going for a ball that at any point was never his to challenge for. I do believe around this time Agger was also injured with a back injury, so right from the beginning we were shuffling defenders around and playing unfit players in key positions.

      Strangely enough, our woeful defending is one of the major contributing factors of our inconsistent start to the season, especially when it comes down to set pieces and especially when the ball is thrown into our 18 yarder, bearing in mind that Skrtel Carra and Agger have carried head injuries into a game or two this season, you could argue a month or two in Skrtel's case, which I suspect might just have been a factor. I mean, lets be honest head injuries could result in a lack of determination to really get your head in there Psychologically ?

      I should also add here that Rafa's desire for a defender such as Turner or Shawcross at  a reported £6million figure is suddenly looking like one on or the other should have been a certainty. However we get the OK but limited Kyrgiakos, saving our excellent owners £4.5 million to pump into the repayments of the debts they heaped upon us, it now seems that the £4.5 million saving has already become insignificant by our failure to qualify from the Champions League, during which we shipped no less than 3 devastating late goals against Lyon. I begin to wonder if Rafa had been allowed to purchase Shawcross or Turner would one of these providing they were fully fit not have helped us during our defensive injury crisis, could we still be in the Champions League, are we counting the costs of a serious lack of investment ?

      Right so we start badly, but we're still in touching distance and the title is still very much within our grasp, we're looking dangerous in attack at times, obliterating the dross that we all agree were our real problem last season. Then we start getting serious injuries, our first tough CL match we start with a just returning barely fit Aurelio in midfield. Maybe we could have played Mascherano, if Mascherano had arrived back from International Duty a day sooner and had been able to train  with the  squad, which he couldn't because we decided not to pay out for Mascherano to share a jet back to the club with none other than Carlos Tevez. Now this leaves me wondering, who would jeapordise an important match for the sake of saving a measly £30,000? Rafa Benitez or Our Penny Pinching Owners ?

      Injury Crisis

      Then, after the next international week, the real injury crisis starts. Gerrard and Torres out and both out for a prolonged period, both injured in meaningless International games. Kuyt plays a meaningless game in Australia on a injured ankle and has had to recover from that while playing almost every minute of every game since. Aurelio, Agger, Benayoun, Riera, Babel, Johnson and his replacements Degen AND Kelly all out, El Zhar out, sure, not a key player, but in essence its fair to say he would play play given all but one of our other wingers are also out.

      At several points most or all of these are out at the same time then we lose at Sunderland, to what should have been deemed non-goal from a deflection off the now world famous beach ball in a match where Spearing is utterly over-awed on his full debut, having only started thanks to the injury crisis we were going through. If I remember rightly the Sunderland match was before the crisis really highlighted the lack of depth in our squad. This kind of luck for me has typified our season, but I won't bother going into that because apparently blind luck isn't allowed as any kind of reason or explanation, and apparently isn't any kind of factor in football at all, not even when Kuyt is getting brought down in the box at the end of the City match after Bellamy falls onto him with no even remote attempt made to play the ball, or When Gallas quite clearly trips Gerrard in the box for a dead cert stone wall penalty, but as I say lets not go into that.

      I should also add to this in 24 games we've played this season over all competitions, we have been forced into trying 16 different defensive combinations, but injuries and inability to field a consistent settled back 4 surely has no impact on our season right ?

      In Summary so far

      Several off pitch kicks in the teeth before the season starts. Bad injuries to key players contributing to a very poor defensive record. An Injury crisis worse than any I can remember in 25 years of supporting Liverpool FC progressively getting worse after the second international break, key players missing in nearly all of our shocking performances that you might care to mention. An ongoing boardroom situation which in comparisons has seen clubs both bigger and smaller clubs than ourselves collapse into far worse perilous situations.

      State of Play

      Last few games we have seen some draws, the last one being the only one where we've really had trouble scoring, having put 6 past City, Everton and Brum who ALL have solid defences and have ALL been hard to beat this season. Funnily enough, we also have 3 clean sheets, having played the same back 4 for 3 games in a row for what I'm pretty damn sure is the first time this season. In between we had the Champions league match against Debrecen where we managed to keep yet another clean sheet and the match against Fiorentina where Darby god love him on his full debut due to injuries again made an error that cost use at the very least a draw, Then it came to Arsenal with seven or eight players not long returned or just returned from injury lay offs building their match fitness in a game where we dominated Arsenal for the first 45, Now I've heard some people say Rafa got it wrong at half time, I'm more inclined to believe the seven or eight players returning from injury lacking in match fitness tailed off in the second half as they could not keep up with the pace of the game and that is my reasonable way of looking at the situation as a whole and looking at things in perspective.

      Looking at the league table now, we are in a bad place, but only 5 points off the Champions League places or 2 points off had we not capitulated in the second half against against Arsenal as they were there for the taking,though granted we did struggle to make any clear cut chances in the second half, which has been a regular problem for us this season in my opinion, whatever anyone else may choose to believe, the signs in the first half showed a vast improvement on what we have been seeing of late with key players being involved in the first team set up.

      Hard Time

      Given all of that, I have a hard time believing that Rafa, who it appears to me as having done no more than replace players like for like an existing successful system, which by large has been good for 70+ points for 4 seasons running, topping over 80 points in two of them, with last seasons points tally being good enough to win the Premier League for 90% of the years since the league was formed.

      Sure, if Rafa had personally opted not to spend money and build on last seasons success, then were would be an argument for wanting Rafa's head on a silver plate, but we didn't have a Transfer budget that amounted to anything over than a 0 net spend. Sure, if Rafa had done something to create these injuries, like throwing cups at players for heads for example then there would be due cause for calling for Rafa's head, however the key injuries happened on international breaks and several of them were of the kind that just happen and could have quite easily happened at Anfield or at Melwood.

      Some Negatives

      Set against this, we have substitutions no more baffling than usual and which in some at the very least have a proven track record of working, I.E. we had and still do have a great record of scoring late on in games, the usual perceptions of negativity set against us yet still dominating all but a couple of games this season in terms of possession and chances, plus the feeling that maybe we should have bought someone like Sneijder or Van der Vaart or even Cattermole,  the first two of whom are known to have ego and attitude issues, both of whom are also on very big wages, and the latter who is clearly a more defensive option, nothing different to what we already have and certainly not a like for like replacement for Alonso in comparison to Aquilani, Of those afore mentioned players, Aquilani is the only one who has actually proven he can play as one of the '2' in a '4-2-3-1', as a more creative type beside a Defensive Midfielder.

      No doubt there are some criticisms of Rafa that hold some water, a question of motivation for example, but you can't motivate away a broken ankle, or a sportsman's hernia picked up whilst away with a Spain side that very obviously and conspicuously injure the very same player in similar ways almost every time he plays with them. Somewhat similar story with Gerrard, which may of course explain why Capello was very keen to have our physio work with the England squad, a move blocked by one David Gill, who's position as FA board member and Utd CEO and G14 board member is in no way a disgustingly dodgy conflict of interests.

      Nothing New

      Of course, none of the things Rafa has done are anything new,  the substitutions or perceived negativity or zonal marking or whatever. None of these things have stopped us doing well in previous seasons, certainly top 4 well anyway, with a wide variety of personnel, some of which Rafa decided were not of the right quality for Liverpool FC and were rightly so shipped out, where as last season's was much more his kind of team, as is this seasons Given his full strength line up is fit of course.

      Yet I'm supposed to believe that Rafa is the main issue here ?, and that sacking him is far more likely to solve our problems, than unfit players simply getting fit, thus allowing us to build some momentum gain some consistency and field what we all consider to be our strongest starting XI on a consistent basis, surely that would make more sense as who ever would be brought into replace would have the same crop of unfit players at his disposal and would need the same consideration/understanding and time for the players to get match fit no ?

      Just who exactly is supposed to be wearing the tinted glasses again? Or are those focusing on blaming our manager saying that injuries have no ill effect on player performance, and that a boardroom which undermines the manager and denies the investment we all believed we would get in the summer is something that has no effect whatsoever on players?

      Alonso, ooh err

      Even stuff like the Xabi saga is widely painted as all Rafa's fault, but here's the actual facts, and these are facts, these have all been quoted and reported in the media, wheras the supposed feud has never been actually quoted from either Xabi OR Rafa, all Rafa and Xabi have ever implied is that they had a professional working relationship.

      Xabi says the tax situation has worried him - that anyone would notice and think about it.
      Rafa turns dowm multiple large offers, in the face of constant media pressure from Real.
      Xabi says on more than one occasion that he wants his future sorted one way or another and that he'd be happy/contented to stay with us.
      Xabi then hands in a transfer request - directly contradicting himself - Rafa accepts an astronomical bid and he is sold.

      Of course, the Barry affair surely had an effect but again the facts, rather than speculation, no matter how justified - all the Xabi Rafa feud stuff is circumstantial and speculative, what is being laid out here out is undeniable fact.

      Rafa wanted both.
      Rafa ended up deciding he'd rather have Barry, having been forced into either/or.
      Rafa has no say in negotiations - that and youth have only been his job this season, which of course is another massive factor that could have helped us save money and build a better squad, but that's off point so apologies.
      Rafa tries to sell Alonso to fund Barry - no-one is interested in Alonso at £15million or so, bar a last minute Arsenal bid at £14million, when the asking price had been made clear, and was stressed as non-negotiable, which makes sense because we needed that much to fund Barry.
      Xabi then has his best season in a red shirt, with a steel in the tackle and a level of consistency that he'd struggled to find, certainly since his first 2 great seasons. The difference in performance is blatantly obvious from the difference in fees and status that said season earns him.

      I'm prepared to bet that last season will remain Xabi's best, but the point is that Rafa didn't try or want, or in any way encourage his sale this season. If it was 100% down to a falling out between Rafa and Xabi, then it was Xabi who ultimately put personal reasons over football reasons - again, he contradicted earlier claims and handed in his request.

      I bring that up only because the Xabi/Barry stuff remains one of the biggest criticisms, and one of the hardest to argue against. But the fact is we had a much harder time scoring at the beginning of last season, a team which featured Xabi and indeed Keane (I.E. a back up/alternative to Torres that so many see as a priority).

      Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Xabi, some of Rafa's decisions, even the lack of a back up striker aren't factors, aren't worthy of debate, aren't reasons to question Rafa about some things.

      But are people seriously trying to tell me, do people honestly believe, that these are all far more important than insignificant piffle like most of our best players all injured at the same time ? Like no money spent on the team other than what Rafa has earned himself in the CL over the years, and pretty much none at all for the last couple of seasons, certainly this one - when we all thought we were so very close? Even Xabi might have stayed if we could have just counted piles of £10,000 down in front of him until he signed, like Utd and Chelsea do with their oh so 'comitted' stars, like John Terry and Rio Ferdinand who unashamedly used the media and threatened to leave/made a big public stink until they were made among the most highly paid players in the world, especially for their positions? Same goes for the likes of Arbeloa.

      Are people really saying that the boardroom/ownership situation has no relevance or bearing with anything that happens on the pitch, even though we've all seen clubs like Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs collapse big time when the relationship between board and manager has broken down? When even Arsenal a couple of seasons suffered a sudden dip in form, coinciding exactly with some take-over stuff and a board member quitting with some strong words to say etc, a situation which led to St. Wenger publicly threatening to quit unless things were sorted again?

      Tinted Glasses

      So remind me again, who exactly is wearing the tinted glasses here? Because I'm not ignoring Rafa's decisions, or Xabi leaving, or our tactics, or our attitude going into matches. I've seen and duly noted all of these things one way or another.

      Yet not one of the many, many people I've defended Rafa's record against has ever met some of these key challenges - like, for example, naming a manager who has succeeded with penny pinching owners with less transfer funds available to him than his rivals.

      I'll give you another challenge - find me a team that's played consistently well with it's best players consistently injured. Tell me how well Arsenal have done since losing Van Persie - for example - though I will give due Kudos to Utd for a huge win without a back 4. A genuine injury crisis but one which doesn't really come close to ours in terms of numbers or length of time.

      I say again, who's wearing the tinted glasses here? Because I haven't seen one good explanation of how we're supposed to be doing so brilliantly with all the problems we have, all I've seen is people laying all the blame at Rafa's door time and time and time again, even though I'm 100% sure the biggest imbecile could see clear as day that he's improved our squad hugely, to a point where we finally have a team somewhat worthy of taking up the ropes Dalglish left somewhat untied?

      Name me that underfunded manager winning everything with all the boardroom troubles we have had/are having. Show me that club playing beautiful football and destroying all in it's path with it's best attackers injured.

      Do that and maybe, just maybe, I'll allow you to persuade me that my glasses are indeed tinted with rose, because, my fellow forumites, it very much seems to me like some of your glasses are tinted with bullshit, the very same bullshit Sky TV, Manc biased Media and ex players such as Collymore gratuitously spew out at them.

      I think that just about sums it up
      ayrton77
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 13,775 posts | 627 
      • © Established Quality Since 1977
      Re: Alonso - the reason Liverpool are losing
      Reply #114: Dec 21, 2009 04:30:21 pm
      ^^^^

      Haven't I already seen that somewhere else? ::)

      Quick Reply