Lucas Leiva (Liverpool > S.S. Lazio)

A post from September 22nd last year (from page 322), at the start of the "Is Lucas holding us back" thread...

... It was straight after we had been completely overrun at Home by Southampton...

Anyway it started some very heated discussion about Lucas and later on whether or not Gerrard could fill the role.

Yes Mick, I remember it well.

The discussions (and threads) which followed were very interesting and some of the best footballing discussions we've had on here. All angles were covered and rightly so, in my opinion.

The problem we are going to have should we reinstate Lucas for Sundays game is to convince Gerrard to leave him to it and not make it a "two holder" situation where him and Lucas are stood next to each other all game. I can appreciate the captains temptation to get back and help out, but we saw earlier in the season it suits neither player.

I fully understand where you're coming from Mick and was intending to type a full reply but then I remembered that I'd actually covered pretty much all I wanted to say in the various threads from the time. I think they still cover where I'm at, with the situation, to be honest...

It's not Stevie's place that should be in doubt (to my mind) but his role. Personally speaking I wouldn't be afraid to move Lucas aside and bring Henderson in beside Stevie...

To be honest, being serious here, for a minute; the Lucas/Gerrard partnership echoes the 'difficulties' with the Lucas/Masch partnership (to my mind anyhow). Both very good in their own right but, played together, they leave the team a bit immobile at the heart of midfield. It's all about the team and (in my opinion) the team would be better served without the 'two' playing, practically, beside each other.

In my opinion - if Stevie is to play a defensive role (which demands covering a lot of lateral ground) and the play-maker role; he'll need an awful lot of 'energy' around him. At the moment that 'energy' would be (for me) Henderson & Allen.

One thing I will add is that without Lucas' injury we may not have seen Stevie in that role. Sometimes 'fate' has a hand to play by 'forcing' decisions upon you. Brendan (who's never afraid to make decisions) had to move Stevie into that role - maybe earlier than he wanted. This time 'round our lack of strength in depth means we may have to adopt yet again. In the words of Monty Python: "Fine, fine. Well, um... adopt, adapt and improve. Just a pair of knickers then please." 

What I'm getting at is that Brendan will do what's best for the team and if that means playing Lucas in a more natural role, with Stevie 'in front', he'll do it [let's be honest: they're roles both lads should be familiar with] and have Stevie well rehearsed in what's required - not that he'll need it.

Good post mate and I'm with you rather than Beerbelly on this, if Sturridge isn't fit then moving Gerrard is definitely an option. That's not to say Gerrard isn't better than Lucas in the holding role (of course he is) but in fairness to the Brazilian fella, Gerrard is probably better than half the team in their preferred roles as well. Is he a better right back than Glen in the latters current form? Of course he is. Is he a better advanced midfielder than Joe in his current form, ditto. The thing is though, there is unfortunately only one Steven Gerrard and we must work out the best spot to play not only him, but the other ten players which make up the team.

Now Chelsea have a very tight two and a very pacey three in their 4-2-3-1 set up, and I'm not sure Lucas will be able to have much of an impact on the game further forward. Stick him in to sit in front of our back four though (and remember a draw would just about put Chelsea out of the title race once and for all) and the game ought to suit him OK. Gerrard obviously will have an impact on the game wherever he plays, and shunting him might just throw Mourinho's no doubt meticulously researched plan into disarray.

So I'm not 100% advocating the boss does it, but it's certainly a consideration and not a ridiculous idea by any means.

I thought Lucas was very impressive against West Ham and definitely played a part in a solid victory - the sort that wins you titles. I actually thought he was quite inventive and crisp in his passing.

On Sunday - I thought he was cumbersome and leggy looking at times, possibly as consequence of lack of games. His passing was poor at times and he seemed off pace in possession. But he also made some vital tackles and played a part in a solid victory - the sort that wins you titles.

I'm not going to over react. He has a role to play in the next two games and one thing we can be sure of is that if BR doesn't think whatever formation he chooses is working then he'll soon change.

Good post mate and I'm with you rather than Beerbelly on this, if Sturridge isn't fit then moving Gerrard is definitely an option. That's not to say Gerrard isn't better than Lucas in the holding role (of course he is) but in fairness to the Brazilian fella, Gerrard is probably better than half the team in their preferred roles as well. Is he a better right back than Glen in the latters current form? Of course he is. Is he a better advanced midfielder than Joe in his current form, ditto. The thing is though, there is unfortunately only one Steven Gerrard and we must work out the best spot to play not only him, but the other ten players which make up the team.

Now Chelsea have a very tight two and a very pacey three in their 4-2-3-1 set up, and I'm not sure Lucas will be able to have much of an impact on the game further forward. Stick him in to sit in front of our back four though (and remember a draw would just about put Chelsea out of the title race once and for all) and the game ought to suit him OK. Gerrard obviously will have an impact on the game wherever he plays, and shunting him might just throw Mourinho's no doubt meticulously researched plan into disarray.

So I'm not 100% advocating the boss does it, but it's certainly a consideration and not a ridiculous idea by any means.

Have to admit, when I first saw your post I thought you were on a wind-up.

I mean, call me cynical but I believe your stirring the wooden spoon, after all you are one of Lucas's biggest detractors on here and I for one minute am not inclined to believe that you hand on heart really mean what you say. Yes, of course, now it is an option but it's also an option to play Luis Alberto in midfield just the same way as it is to move Gerrard out of his role for Lucas, a player you clearly don't rate.

I'll put my mortgage on it, that your now "option" of swapping Gerrard and Lucas around since the last fixture won't happen.

Rodgers isn't that stupid.

And hand on heart I don't believe you are either  that said, if Lucas does start in Gerrard's place on the weekend I will pop back in here and hold my hands up.

So I'm not 100% advocating the boss does it.

Yes I realised that Mick. 

The word "should", in the line "The problem we are going to have should we reinstate Lucas for Sundays game" was the giveaway.

... but it's certainly a consideration and not a ridiculous idea by any means.

You're right mate - given that we've played the same 'formation' on many, many, occasions in the past.

If Sturridge is out then the accommodating should be done on the forward line and even though he's not the best player around Iago Aspas should come in to leave the midfield in tact and support an already potent forward line.

I am not sure Aspas is even a genuine option anymore mate. He has never made an appearance.... even in his usual role of "5 minute sub" since his "want away" declaration after we played the mancs. Obviously it could be coincidence, or simply that we have been winning games so his presence wasn't required.

If Sturridge is fit I don't think there is any argument that Lucas shouldn be the one that steps down, the problem only arises if Sturridge is not fit.

This is the problem with having such a small squad, options become limited and when you look at Brendan's options off the bench they are pretty thin. We could bring in Agger or Toure and play three at the back, we could play Alberto (never even made a sub appearance since January), we could play Aspas who is the like for like replacement, or Lucas, wherever and however we can play him.

None of the options really appeals to me , but I think Lucas may be the least bad option, which is why I am hoping Sturridge is fit !   

Now I've heard everything.  Stevie is in the middle of a renaissance in his career playing in a deeper holding role, he has revolutionized his game and has done so brilliantly, during this revolution in his game we have won 11 games on the trot, and he is one of the catalysts. 

And some here are suggesting.... moving him out of that role.  Moving him to do something else. 

Why?

well, because poor Lucas isn't as adaptable as Stevie is and can only play if HE is the only holding player. 

So some want to fix what isn't broken and gamble on us losing our rhythm just to accommodate the one-dimensional Lucas.  oh dear.  I always knew that "no player is bigger than the club" adage was wrong.  It turns out Lucas Leiva is bigger than the club. 


Lucas
Fellatio
Club

And some here are suggesting.... moving him out of that role.  Moving him to do something else.

I'm not sure (if you actually read what's been written) that anyone has suggested that Fed. Maybe you should take a deep breath and read the posts [even those which were edited, with hindsight, when the penny dropped  ] again mate and in order.

Off the back of an opinion that, a) he was poor, against Norwich, in a more forward role and b) we aren't exactly coming down with midfield options; an opinion was put forward, by Mick, for discussion that... there may be an option (if Lucas is to play against Chelsea) to play him in a role he's more familiar with.

That's all it was Fed - a hypothetical option put forward for discussion. Now rather than mocking that, with childlike posts why don't you put your big boy trousers on and give us your thoughts on the actual points raised?

Tell us, for example, if Brendan were play Lucas against Chelsea on Saturday - would the team be better served if he plays him further forward in the diamond [like the Norwich game] or in the role he's better at, with Stevie playing further forward?

sh*t... even if you don't believe Brendan shouldn't be playing Lucas at all [a valid opinion btw]; why not give us other options Brendan should be looking at?

You've long since become a caricature of yourself as a wum mate and maybe you enjoy being that tool but it could just be your comprehension of the written word is lacking, for example : Bigmick can be described as a lot of things but a Lucas fan Fed... if you actually took time out to read other people's posts you'd know that so quit with the sad-F**k, childlike, Lucas Fellatio Club bullshit.   

It's a strange one this, and one of those occasions where you have to wonder if people are actually reading when you post. IF STURRIDGE IS INJURED we have to put someone in the team to replace him. We cannot play Henderson because he is suspended, we cannot play Moses because we are playing against his parent club, and we probably will not play either Aspas or Alberto because they aren't very good (arguably YET in the case of Alberto).

Now, given all of that we may have little option but to play Lucas. IF THAT IS THE CASE what is the best way to use the players at our disposal? Is it to play Lucas further forward where to be honest he really isn't very good, but leave Gerrard as the holder (where we now unequivocally know he is superb)? Or is to move Lucas to being the holder (where we know he can hold his own) and move Gerrard forward where no doubt he will also be excellent?

It's really not a "I can't believe what I'm reading" situation, it's merely an option. I've been called a few things on this forum, but a Lucas fan is a first even for me.

I'm not sure (if you actually read what's been written) that anyone has suggested that Fed. Maybe you should take a deep breath and read the posts [even those which were edited, with hindsight, when the penny dropped  ] again mate and in order.

Off the back of an opinion that, a) he was poor, against Norwich, in a more forward role and b) we aren't exactly coming down with midfield options; an opinion was put forward, by Mick, for discussion that... there may be an option (if Lucas is to play against Chelsea) to play him in a role he's more familiar with.

That's all it was Fed - a hypothetical option put forward for discussion. Now rather than mocking that, with childlike posts why don't you put your big boy trousers on and give us your thoughts on the actual points raised?

Tell us, for example, if Brendan were play Lucas against Chelsea on Saturday - would the team be better served if he plays him further forward in the diamond [like the Norwich game] or in the role he's better at, with Stevie playing further forward?

Sh*t... even if you don't believe Brendan shouldn't be playing Lucas at all [a valid opinion btw]; why not give us other options Brendan should be looking at?

You've long since become a caricature of yourself as a wum mate and maybe you enjoy being that tool but it could just be your comprehension of the written word is lacking, for example : Bigmick can be described as a lot of things but a Lucas fan Fed... if you actually took time out to read other people's posts you'd know that so quit with the sad-f**k, childlike, Lucas Fellatio Club bullshit.   

Exactomundo mate, said it better than I did and five minutes before too!

It's really not a "I can't believe what I'm reading" situation, it's merely an option. I've been called a few things on this forum, but a Lucas fan is a first even for me.

Bizarre.

Personally I'd keep things as they are Mick.

As you said Gerrard has been fantastic in his current role and dictates the game from there and it's something Lucas didn't do in that position. Also I think Lucas 'poor performance', I'm not convinced it was as bad as some think it was, can be atrributed in some part to coming back from injury to a position he's not entirely up to speed with. Another week n the traing ground should see him fit in a bit more and I just don't want to see Gerrard moved as I think it may well leave us weaker in both positions and could even see us returning to Lucas/Gerrard sitting on top if each other that started the whole debate earlier in the season.

I've been called a few things on this forum, but a Lucas fan is a first even for me.

Worse still mate... you were accused of smoking his beef. 

why not give us other options Brendan should be looking at?

In fact I myself came to the defense of Lucas to a certain extent.  the simple fact of the matter is that we don't have enough healthy, capable midfielders right now.  So Lucas is a last resort.  It's not Lucas' fault that Henderson got a red and Sturridge is out.  Or when he had the chance in front of goal at Norwich and missed---I don't blame him for that at all.  He's not a goalscorer, that's not his job.  I don't blame Lucas for having a poor game, or for being a poor player since his injury.

And if we could all just look in the mirror and say "Alright, we have no other options right now, we know Lucas is not the player he once was, but what else are we going to do?"---if we could do that, I'd have no problem with it.  But there are some here who don't even ACKNOWLEDGE how poor Lucas has been.  Allen was MOTM at Norwich next to Sterling, Allen was everywhere, did everything, and yet, someone a few pages back said Lucas had an even BETTER game than Allen!  despite constantly giving the ball away, being well off the pace, giving away numerous fouls in vulnerable positions (including a foul in the last seconds of the game that could have cost us 2 points).  There really are some here who think Lucas played well.  If you don't believe me just go back a few pages.

So.  We're stuck.  The best case scenario is that Sturridge is fit for Chelsea, so Raheem can drop back into the diamond and Lucas can return to the bench.  that would make all of this null and void.  If that doesn't happen then Rodgers really has no choice but to play Lucas---the idea that we should move Stevie though, just to accommodate the one-dimensional Lucas, is beyond mind-boggling.  Leave Stevie in his best position right now, at holding DM.  We'll have to make do with Lucas on the right of the diamond.

If, however, we are going to insist on having Lucas sit back in his position as DM (which he really isn't good at anyway), then as I suggested a few months ago, there's no reason why we shouldn't give Agger a go in midfield.  He is much better on the ball than Lucas, he can put in a tackle, and he doesn't give away as many stupid fouls because of his lack of pace.  If we're going to play with two holding players then give Agger a go.  Rafa used Aurelio in midfield several times to great effect.  Of course Aurelio was a much more cultured player than Agger but Fabio was playing more CM and Agger would be more DM.  If we're going to play with 2 DMs then it can't be Lucas because he was a disaster at Norwich and quite frankly has been for much of the season.

So.  We're stuck.  The best case scenario is that Sturridge is fit for Chelsea, so Raheem can drop back into the diamond and Lucas can return to the bench.  that would make all of this null and void.  If that doesn't happen then Rodgers really has no choice but to play Lucas---the idea that we should move Stevie though, just to accommodate the one-dimensional Lucas, is beyond mind-boggling.  Leave Stevie in his best position right now, at holding DM.  We'll have to make do with Lucas on the right of the diamond.

See how easy that was Fed?

Lifted this excerpt because it's the crux of the matter (if you read what Mick has written). "One dimensional" Fed? What is that "one dimension"? How are we best served as a team by that "one dimension" mate? Has Stevie more than "one dimension" or can he play anywhere?

I mean; it seems a bit of a contradiction to me to be suggesting that Lucas is "one dimensional" (and not very good at that anyhow) then to suggest the team would be better served if he's used outside of that "one dimension". You'll need to explain that one, in more depth, as I may be missing something. 

There really are some here who think Lucas played well.  If you don't believe me just go back a few pages.

I don't need to go back mate: I read those posts and those "some" who think he played well are entitled to that opinion without being called names because we don't share their view. The strange thing is... most of those who believe he played well share your view that Lucas can play in the diamond, in front of Stevie. Go figure. 

In fact I myself came to the defense of Lucas to a certain extent.  the simple fact of the matter is that we don't have enough healthy, capable midfielders right now.  So Lucas is a last resort.  It's not Lucas' fault that Henderson got a red and Sturridge is out.  Or when he had the chance in front of goal at Norwich and missed---I don't blame him for that at all.  He's not a goalscorer, that's not his job.  I don't blame Lucas for having a poor game, or for being a poor player since his injury.

And if we could all just look in the mirror and say "Alright, we have no other options right now, we know Lucas is not the player he once was, but what else are we going to do?"---if we could do that, I'd have no problem with it.  But there are some here who don't even ACKNOWLEDGE how poor Lucas has been.  Allen was MOTM at Norwich next to Sterling, Allen was everywhere, did everything, and yet, someone a few pages back said Lucas had an even BETTER game than Allen!  despite constantly giving the ball away, being well off the pace, giving away numerous fouls in vulnerable positions (including a foul in the last seconds of the game that could have cost us 2 points).  There really are some here who think Lucas played well.  If you don't believe me just go back a few pages.

So.  We're stuck.  The best case scenario is that Sturridge is fit for Chelsea, so Raheem can drop back into the diamond and Lucas can return to the bench.  that would make all of this null and void.  If that doesn't happen then Rodgers really has no choice but to play Lucas---the idea that we should move Stevie though, just to accommodate the one-dimensional Lucas, is beyond mind-boggling.  Leave Stevie in his best position right now, at holding DM.  We'll have to make do with Lucas on the right of the diamond.

If, however, we are going to insist on having Lucas sit back in his position as DM (which he really isn't good at anyway), then as I suggested a few months ago, there's no reason why we shouldn't give Agger a go in midfield.  He is much better on the ball than Lucas, he can put in a tackle, and he doesn't give away as many stupid fouls because of his lack of pace.  If we're going to play with two holding players then give Agger a go.  Rafa used Aurelio in midfield several times to great effect.  Of course Aurelio was a much more cultured player than Agger but Fabio was playing more CM and Agger would be more DM.  If we're going to play with 2 DMs then it can't be Lucas because he was a disaster at Norwich and quite frankly has been for much of the season.

While you've been pulled up on the tedious point of a one dimensional Lucas in which I agree he is one dimensional, that would be the reason I'd have him completely out the starting eleven. If Sturridge is out, replace him, we don't need to start tinkering with a midfield to fix a problem up front.

Lifted this excerpt because it's the crux of the matter (if you read what Mick has written). "One dimensional" Fed? What is that "one dimension"? How are we best served as a team by that "one dimension" mate?

I say "one dimension" out of respect and deference to Lucas.  to be honest at this point I don't see what he offers.  He doesn't have any dimensions.  He is slow.  He has no agility.  He can't even keep hold of the ball.  He gives away fouls.  I didn't want to outright say he's useless but there you go.  Lucas doesn't add anything to the team right now.  I doubt he ever will again.  But right now, he definitely does not.  Against Norwich he was just a warm body running around the field.  His main purpose at LFC at this point is being best mates with Suarez so he doesn't get restless again.

Lucas can play in the diamond, in front of Stevie.

What exactly is meant here by "can play"?  can he go stand in that general area and kick the ball a few times?  sure.  But if we are going by that definition, then you could have Mignolet go play in the diamond in front of Stevie.  We don't just need an 11th body on the pitch, we need someone who can do a job.  Being on the right or left of the diamond also includes tracking back along the wing.  Do you think with Salah or Schurrle or Oscar in the side, that Lucas is going to be able to keep up with them?  of course not.  Result: more fouls.  More quick players blowing by him in midfield and putting more strain on Stevie and our back four which is already shaky as is.  And it's not as if Lucas offers anything going forward to compensate.  He is not an attacking player.  That doesn't bother me because even he would say he is not best going forward.  The point is: if he offers nothing going forward, and can't keep up with the pace of the game, and gives the ball away, and commits stupid fouls, then what does he contribute? 

Come to think of it, if Sturridge is still out, then Rodgers should consider throwing Teixeira in.  "Oh but he is 19 and has never played in a big..." yes.  it's true.  Lucas has played in more big matches.  Maybe that is his one dimension right now.  Salah and Willian will run at him and he will say "I forbid you to go by me because I have a lot of experience in big matches!"  Norwich away was yet again the biggest game of our season and Lucas failed that miserably.  Rodgers threw Teixeira on when we were tied away at Fulham (the game that truly made us start to believe we could win the title), and what did the lad do?  oh he only played the ball that Sturridge latched onto that won us the penalty that won us the game.  And then made two key tackles as we held on for the last few minutes.  So why not play him?  he's a hell of a lot more mobile than Lucas, he clearly offers more going forward, he has the speed to track back, etc.  Lucas possesses exactly zero of those qualities. 

So why not play him?  experience is useless if you can't actually call on it.  No amount of experience is going to make Lucas run faster or have a better touch.  If he was so experienced then he wouldn't have given away a stupid foul at the end of the match against Norwich that could have cost us the win.  Would Teixeira start if Henderson were available or Sturridge were fit?  absolutely not.  But considering we're scraping the bottom of the barrel here then I'd rather have someone in there who can actually do what is required of him than Lucas who has proven that he can't.

While you've been pulled up on the tedious point of a one dimensional

Seriously kid; would you forever grow up and move on? Your snide sniping and your constant need to have a dig at me, because I fell out with you months ago, is more than a tad obsessional mate and is getting tiresome now: the way you stalk me, looking for a row, used to be funny but now it's just weird.

If you believe I'm tedious mate - just ignore me. It's usually what I do when I know you are angling for yet another row. Time to show some mental maturity and let go; eh?   

I say "one dimension" out of respect and deference to Lucas.  to be honest at this point I don't see what he offers.  He doesn't have any dimensions.  He is slow.  He has no agility.  He can't even keep hold of the ball.  He gives away fouls.  I didn't want to outright say he's useless but there you go.

Fair enough Fed - I genuinely thought you wanted to join in on a sensible discussion but sadly, par for the course, you merely wanted to point out your hatred for yet another Liverpool player. I did try. Good luck with the continuing, unabated, wind ups and trolling fella... 

Fair enough Fed - I genuinely thought you wanted to join in on a sensible discussion but sadly, par for the course, you merely wanted to point out your hatred for yet another Liverpool player. I did try. Good luck with the continuing, unabated, wind ups and trolling fella... 

You just said people were entitled their views as to whether Lucas had a good game or not and shouldn't be insulted as a result. Now the tennis player has said he doesn't see what Lucas offers and rattles off why, yet you get stuck in with the Ad Homs.

Hypocritical much? 

Really don't get this poor since he came back crap.  He wasn't awful against Norwich, made an error or two like every Liverpool player did that day and didn't fade away as badly as Allen did.  Bringing him on against West Ham changed that game as well.  It's an old drum I've been banging, but he's a much better player than many give credit to and is more than worthy of a place in our squad.

You just said people were entitled their views as to whether Lucas had a good game or not and shouldn't be insulted as a result. Now the tennis player has said he doesn't see what Lucas offers and rattles off why, yet you get stuck in with the Ad Homs.

Hypocritical much? 

Nah mate.

The point about Fed is that he is thought of as being a troll/wum - rather than just call people names and air his hatred of numerous Liverpool players (thereby reinforcing people's perceptions) I offered him a chance to discuss what was actually written... the 'option' mick offered up for discussion. I think it's clear he didn't want to do that which, like I said, was "fair enough".

Like with everyone else, his opinion, doesn't offend me but I have little time for someone who prefers a row and name calling over debate so I bowed out.

The point between me and you and it's there for all to see; is that you constantly snipe at me with jibes about tedious because (in your mind) I fell out with you, months ago, in the Dalglish thread. I'm asking you to ignore me (which won't offend me and shows mental maturity) or let go. However, if you can't, or won't... fair enough - I'll ignore you and bow out of any further discussion. 

Nah mate.

The point about Fed is that he is thought of as being a troll/wum - rather than just call people names and air his hatred of numerous Liverpool players (thereby reinforcing people's perceptions) I offered him a chance to discuss what was actually written... the 'option' mick offered up for discussion. I think it's clear he didn't want to do that which, like I said, was "fair enough".

Like with everyone else, his opinion, doesn't offend me but I have little time for someone who prefers a row and name calling over debate so I bowed out.

The point between me and you and it's there for all to see; is that you constantly snipe at me with jibes about tedious because (in your mind) I fell out with you, months ago, in the Dalglish thread. I'm asking you to ignore me (which won't offend me and shows mental maturity) or let go. However, if you can't, or won't... fair enough - I'll ignore you and bow out of any further discussion. 

Or, how about we post more amicably towards one another - to really show our mental maturity?

Or, how about we post more amicably towards one another - to really show our mental maturity?

Fair enough - tell me what I've posted, which wasn't amicable, or offended you and I'll promise not to do it again... apart from a differing opinion off course.