NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC

I'm not saying this is or isn't true or aiming the comment at you or anyone else, but this part has just reminded of something I heard said the other day.  History used to be written by the winners, nowadays it's rewritten by the whiners.

I see an awful lot of people trying to re-write history, and to be honest it gets on my tits. I find it really dishonest when done deliberately.

As an example, when I first joined here I had an impression of Rafa that seemed solid enough to me until I started reading s@ints posts, particularly regarding money spent and what he did (or didn't) say in speaking out against the owners.
S@int changed my mind in quite a few ways about Rafa, and exploded a few myths.
Then there's the "FSG saved us from bancruptcy" line which also turns out to be less than truthful as well.

My point is that some seem less interested in "truth" than they are in promoting a particular viewpoint, and with all the myths and nonsense flying around it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff at times.

I see an awful lot of people trying to re-write history, and to be honest it gets on my tits. I find it really dishonest when done deliberately.

As an example, when I first joined here I had an impression of Rafa that seemed solid enough to me until I started reading s@ints posts, particularly regarding money spent and what he did (or didn't) say in speaking out against the owners.
S@int changed my mind in quite a few ways about Rafa, and exploded a few myths.
Then there's the "FSG saved us from bancruptcy" line which also turns out to be less than truthful as well.

My point is that some seem less interested in "truth" than they are in promoting a particular viewpoint, and with all the myths and nonsense flying around it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff at times.

I do agree .. There is no point trying to sensationalise just to make a point.

I hope I don't come across that way with my view on the owners.

What you replied to Debs..

Sorry to pick out one part of an excellent post reddebs, but surely this part isn't quite true?
They came in, saw what the fans thought of Hodgson, sacked him, brought in the fans favourite KK and gave him a load of money to spend (loaned).
It was only after their KK venture failed (and at a guess I reckon KK told them if they gave him money he would get top 4 etc in first season) that they turned back to their preferred method which they have since carried on under BR.

Am I remembering wrongly here?

If you take away the actual detail..

They came here with the ultimate goal of sorting us out of the field, clearing the debt and making us self sufficient?

Now the points you made are valid yes but still don't ultimately steer from that do they? As to what they have done overall?
They came in with a lack of knowledge and have had to learn as they go and have corrected 'mistakes' they believe were there or they made themselves.. But their ultimate goal hasn't changed it's fair to say.

Hodgson was never going to survive with attendances dropping

Kenny and Brendan [or their buying/scouting teams] have been given the money we generate..
That feel like a lot of money but we generate a lot of money.. But ultimately it's not a mass amount in terms constantly restarting the process with the squad again and again for varying reasons. It's 30 million net or thereabouts per season.. It's what we generate.. That's what they said from the get go.

They have changed manager and structure a few times, their 'mistakes'.. But the ultimate goal hasn't changed from day one..
They haven't once bankrolled us against what they originally said and then put a stop to it.

As I said mate I think I try to be level on them.. They aren't crooks, they aren't asset stripping.. They aren't terrible men from across the pond
But their original and indeed current idea for us won't get us winning things. It has a ceiling.
I don't class that as rewriting history.. I've bored you for 3 years on it mate 

Sorry to pick out one part of an excellent post reddebs, but surely this part isn't quite true?
They came in, saw what the fans thought of Hodgson, sacked him, brought in the fans favourite KK and gave him a load of money to spend (loaned).
It was only after their KK venture failed (and at a guess I reckon KK told them if they gave him money he would get top 4 etc in first season) that they turned back to their preferred method which they have since carried on under BR.

Am I remembering wrongly here?

Depends on your interpretation of those events Swab. 

They only "listened" to the fans with Hodgson when they stopped turning up at Anfield, they admitted they were happy to wait till the summer before getting in their preferred choice, despite the dire football on display. 

They brought Kenny in to buy them time, he was only ever a stop gap to them despite the 3 year deal, get the fans back on side and allow them to concentrate on sorting out the financial mess we were in.  I don't have a problem with that, it was needed. 

I'm talking about the "never spending more than we earn", "buying potential and developing them", "never again wasting money on inflated fees and wages". 

That's what they've never wavered from mate yet people still think that they will.

Depends on your interpretation of those events Swab. 

They only "listened" to the fans with Hodgson when they stopped turning up at Anfield, they admitted they were happy to wait till the summer before getting in their preferred choice, despite the dire football on display. 

They brought Kenny in to buy them time, he was only ever a stop gap to them despite the 3 year deal, get the fans back on side and allow them to concentrate on sorting out the financial mess we were in.  I don't have a problem with that, it was needed. 

I'm talking about the "never spending more than we earn", "buying potential and developing them", "never again wasting money on inflated fees and wages". 

That's what they've never wavered from mate yet people still think that they will.

No offense mate, but I really don't get this.
They listened to the fans, which seems a plus point to me.

KK as a stop gap, to buy them time?
Why would they need to buy time?
Indeed why would they bring in a club legend, knowing that sacking him would be an unpopular move and would cost them millions as well, on top of what they'd already paid out to Hodgson? Not to mention Comolli (who also cost them) who was the committee of 2 along with KK.
I mean it's a nice theory if you want to paint them as wankers, but for me, it just doesn't add up.

Of course your points about what they said are spot on, but they are only "wrong" ideas in the twisted world that is modern football where every bugger and his dog wants a meal ticket.

No offense mate, but I really don't get this.
They listened to the fans, which seems a plus point to me.

KK as a stop gap, to buy them time?
Why would they need to buy time?
Indeed why would they bring in a club legend, knowing that sacking him would be an unpopular move and would cost them millions as well, on top of what they'd already paid out to Hodgson? Not to mention Comolli (who also cost them) who was the committee of 2 along with KK.
I mean it's a nice theory if you want to paint them as wankers, but for me, it just doesn't add up.

Of course your points about what they said are spot on, but they are only "wrong" ideas in the twisted world that is modern football where every bugger and his dog wants a meal ticket.

Like I said mate, it's all about the interpretation and opinions.  For me they've done excellently on the business side but then I doubted that side of it however they've been sadly lacking on the football side of things. 

What you or anybody else thinks about them is entirely up to you.  There is no right or wrong with opinions, it's personal choice.

Depends on your interpretation of those events Swab. 

They only "listened" to the fans with Hodgson when they stopped turning up at Anfield, they admitted they were happy to wait till the summer before getting in their preferred choice, despite the dire football on display. 

They brought Kenny in to buy them time, he was only ever a stop gap to them despite the 3 year deal, get the fans back on side and allow them to concentrate on sorting out the financial mess we were in.  I don't have a problem with that, it was needed. 

I'm talking about the "never spending more than we earn", "buying potential and developing them", "never again wasting money on inflated fees and wages". 

That's what they've never wavered from mate yet people still think that they will.

It's been an excellent debate reddebs mate and in general I agree with people who have said that FSG have been a safe pair of hands. We won't go bankrupt, we won't be asset stripped and we will get a new stadium. They have stabilised things much than anyone oin the previous 5 years before that. But crucially, with the current approach, it's difficult to see us challenging for the title regularly.

I do have a point to raise about their intentions though. You are absolutely right, they have always said the goal is to make us self sufficient, which is exactly the message you hear at Chelsea and City (no need to raise it for United and Arsenal, they are already self sufficient). In that sense, I don't have an issue with themethod. It doesn't mean to say they can't tweak the structure. They can do away with a transfer committee, or at worst, give the gaffer more of a say in the committee and also target less players of quality with higher wages. We won't be breaking FFP rules, or go against the who "self-sufficieny model" but we may be able to compete for better players.

In that sense, I, as a fan, have every right to presume things can be changed without wavering from the FSG ethos. We're not really talking about big changes, just some operational changes to the football matters whilst the board and the chief executive can focus on the commercial side of the business, the way it should be.

In that sense, I, as a fan, have every right to presume things can be changed without wavering from the FSG ethos. We're not really talking about big changes, just some operational changes to the football matters whilst the board and the chief executive can focus on the commercial side of the business, the way it should be.

Certainly things can change mate and as you've also said here, they don't need to be huge changes, just a tweak here or there, just a slight relaxation of the policy, just for one window could/would make a massive difference.

I'm not getting my hopes up for the summer, it'll be a bit like the kid on Xmas morning hoping upon hope for that one big present that they've wanted all year who wakes up to a sh*t load of stocking fillers that probably cost more than the one thing they really wanted.  It's still Xmas but not the one you wanted.

hang on...

did FSG really appoint Woy all those years ago? I have to think back a fair while now... that was the most anti-LFC thing they could have done in their first act..

hang on...

did FSG really appoint Woy all those years ago? I have to think back a fair while now... that was the most anti-LFC thing they could have done in their first act..

No that was Hicks and Gillette mate.

Original cowboys hired the barn owl. FSG replaced him with King Kenny.

I still think they could have gave kenny another season at least, 2 finals, 1 cup and sacked so we can starta gain with a new philosphy, ok we got the carroll transfer wrong, but apart from that kenny did ok. And actual When carroll is on form & fit he is some player.

hang on...

did FSG really appoint Woy all those years ago? I have to think back a fair while now... that was the most anti-LFC thing they could have done in their first act..

No Shamway didn't appoint Woyston.
But I do remember just after their takeover and Tweedledum and Tweedledee (aka Henry and Werner) appeared on an LFC phone in, in the studio in Lpool.

The fans were ringing up irate that Woyston had put us in a relegation battle. Obviously they wanted Woyston out. Henry was all for letting things carry on - after all, he's not a football fan is he.

After about EIGHT calls, the penny dropped on Werner (the one with TV experience) that a pr disaster would be unfolding. Finally Werner accepted that Woyston's current performances were not acceptable. And that things would have to change. Henry however continued with his glib sh*t.

Sadly, 4.5 yrs later (and barring last yrs Miracle of Luis Suarez) we're still not  a top 4 team, let alone winners of major silverware. Year on year, they chip away at the expectation the fans have of a formerly great football club. Yr on yr, they think they can give the fans less, and charge them more.
Death by a thousand cuts is the phrase.

As an aside, this is the result of analysing positions of teams’ average season-ending positions over the last 50 years. Only teams that have appeared in the top four English leagues for at least 15 seasons since 1964/65 have been included – although any ventures into non-league are also reflected.

So, FSG, don't let this slip eh and investment is key to keeping us at the top of this league.

BRENDAN RODGERS has defiantly claimed he will bring success to Liverpool “if I can get the tools” as he said the club must be “forceful” in the transfer market this summer.

Reading this it's pretty clear what Brendan is wanting from the owners.
A change in transfer policy! Yes made these kind of statements before though, and they fell on death ears.
I'd like to believe that it will happen, but I think FSG are happy to stick to the plan.

BRENDAN RODGERS has defiantly claimed he will bring success to Liverpool “if I can get the tools” as he said the club must be “forceful” in the transfer market this summer.

Reading this it's pretty clear what Brendan is wanting from the owners.
A change in transfer policy! Yes made these kind of statements before though, and they fell on death ears.
I'd like to believe that it will happen, but I think FSG are happy to stick to the plan.

You could view that also as someone who is setting the narrative incase he gets sacked..

I personally would love to see the policy change however I'd rather Brendan pick the phone up and speak to them about it or fly there and demand it than the narrative be played out as a face saving activity in public

The thing people need to remember is that its only us fans who truly give a f**k about the actual club.. The rest are normally in it for themselves ultimately.

...
I'm talking about the "never spending more than we earn", "buying potential and developing them", "never again wasting money on inflated fees and wages". 

That's what they've never wavered from mate yet people still think that they will.

Reminded me of a Simpsons episode I think. One where Homer kept trying to pick up a bun, and Bart had it rigged to shock him each time he tried.  But he kept on trying anyway Good old Homie.

More and more I'm starting to agree that FSG will just stick to their 'plan'. We'll see.  Deffo don't think Homer would ever stop trying to pickup the bun ...

You could view that also as someone who is setting the narrative incase he gets sacked..

I personally would love to see the policy change however I'd rather Brendan pick the phone up and speak to them about it or fly there and demand it than the narrative be played out as a face saving activity in public

The thing people need to remember is that its only us fans who truly give a f**k about the actual club.. The rest are normally in it for themselves ultimately.

It's true that Brendan would need to be telling this directly to the owners, rather than the English media, where JWH won't hear anything about it. Maybe he is!

Brendan does have a lot of faith in himself, so I've no doubt he believes what he's saying. I kinda do too!

It's true that Brendan would need to be telling this directly to the owners, rather than the English media, where JWH won't hear anything about it. Maybe he is!

Brendan does have a lot of faith in himself, so I've no doubt he believes what he's saying. I kinda do too!

I like Brendan mate but don't not think he isn't playing the long game as well

It's one of the things fsg liked about him and saw in him, that he is media savvy and has had media training.

Just imagine it..

Three months after his sacking having dropped things like this through the press and he's back on talking to his mate Alan Brazil on Talkshite

Yeah Alan, the transfer policy didn't help me.. We needed more experienced players.. Etc.


Now that's true for you and me, of course but if he believes it I'd rather he be demanding this of the owners and if he feels so strong about it then demand or or walk and then his claim on Talkshite 3 months down the line  would carry more water.

Like I say, it may be me being cynical but I feel he's laying a public narrative in case he gets sacked.

I like Brendan mate but don't not think he isn't playing the long game as well

It's one of the things fsg liked about him and saw in him, that he is media savvy and has had media training.

Just imagine it..

Three months after his sacking having dropped things like this through the press and he's back on talking to his mate Alan Brazil on Talkshite

Yeah Alan, the transfer policy didn't help me.. We needed more experienced players.. Etc.


Now that's true for you and me, of course but if he believes it I'd rather he be demanding this of the owners and if he feels so strong about it then demand or or walk and then his claim on Talkshite 3 months down the line  would carry more water.

Like I say, it may be me being cynical but I feel he's laying a public narrative in case he gets sacked.

All pretty F***ing depressing Jon

Brendan won't bite the hand that feeds him, I'd be surprised if he would even ask FSG to deviant from their long term plan, as I'm sure he was made aware of it.
Clearly he would like to though!

I like Brendan mate but don't not think he isn't playing the long game as well

It's one of the things fsg liked about him and saw in him, that he is media savvy and has had media training.

Just imagine it..

Three months after his sacking having dropped things like this through the press and he's back on talking to his mate Alan Brazil on Talkshite

Yeah Alan, the transfer policy didn't help me.. We needed more experienced players.. Etc.


Now that's true for you and me, of course but if he believes it I'd rather he be demanding this of the owners and if he feels so strong about it then demand or or walk and then his claim on Talkshite 3 months down the line  would carry more water.

Like I say, it may be me being cynical but I feel he's laying a public narrative in case he gets sacked.

Good points Jon which is why I was pissed off when he came out about 5th being par for the course and we are about in line where we should be on wages spent.

That comment came just a day or so after that report was in the media and Brendan is a smart guy and I think he seized on it to take the heat off him both with the support and possibly Fenway as well.

Brendan won't bite the hand that feeds him, I'd be surprised if he would even ask FSG to deviant from their long term plan, as I'm sure he was made aware of it.
Clearly he would like to though!

He is saying it by saying it in the press but not directly to them to actually change things

That's what I mean by setting a narrative mate

Of course he shouldn't bite the hand that feeds him.. But a better way to achieve change would be to talk direct to them rather than talk about them in the press

All we seem to have done under American ownership is fight ? first it was the fight against the two fckwits , and now we are fighting amongst ourselves a very sad state of affairs we find ourselves in , oh to just talk about the football .

All we seem to have done under American ownership is fight ? first it was the fight against the two fckwits , and now we are fighting amongst ourselves a very sad state of affairs we find ourselves in , oh to just talk about the football .

Yep.

We all talk far too much about finance, owners, F***ing club doctors and the like and it sickens me to the core at times.

Football shouldn't be about that for us.