We're not tough enough.

I think the Stoke match really hit home for me. Were not physical enough.  Stoke pushed us all over that pitch.  I'm not saying we need a team of goons or hit-men to rack up red cards, but their is fine line between physical, bruising play and outright cheap shot football and we dont have either.

I think we agree that on set pieces and in the box were giving up too much weight and getting pushed off the ball on numerous occasions. It doesnt take much to get a change in attitude and thats what we need. We need more presence in the box, we need clean but hard tackles and take no sh*t play.  I saw too many guys getting elbows to the head, face etc.  They get pushed in the box and give up goals and dont hold their ground. If opposing players are throwing elbows and not getting a yellow or red, then we need to do the same. I think you can be succesful and tough as F**k, look at Alan Shearer.

no teams seem to repect us any more they find we have no plan if they bring the game to us. then they use intimidation tactics to supress us. and then players throw the towel in and give up

I'd rather have a team that can actually play football!

We'll end up like Blackburn or Bolton with too many physical players(not that wer any better at the moment like).But....

I'd say we need a new defence and someone in the mold of Didi then the team should be able to match the lesser teams which set out to bully us. The rest of our team should be able to cope with teams like Stoke, but like you said our team attitude stinks. Personally I'd use the rest of this horrid season to blood our youngsters, see if they can show the so called "pro's" how to actually pass a ball and make play in the final third count.

But sadly we have a negative arl b***ard of a manager who has ran out of ideas if ever he had one in the first place.

Toughness and pace both help tons, IMO but it's the brains you should have.

I just don't get it. Why can't we freaking pass the ball to each other and play like a team regardless of whether we're tought or not, fast or not, Hodgson or Benitez, NESV or H&G, home or away and Madrid or Northampton?

We have a better group of players than the likes of Sunderland, Blackpool, Stoke, Northampton but we can't even play football at it's simplest level and yet those teams I mentioned out passes and out plays us?

We're hardly playing football.

Ryan Babel big....strong......very quick.......useless.

I don't think its a case of that to be honest, personally for me its all about tactics and pressing the opposition when we havent got the ball.

Take Chelsea for example in the first half we pressed them tirelesley and made them make mistakes which led to two goals and in the second half we were like a different team we dropped deep and let Chelsea play football and lets be honest we were very lucky to get 3 points if it wasn't for some great saves by Pepe.

The same apllies in the rest of the games this season we have not pressed the oppostion and we have allowed them to play football.

If as a team you play like a sponge looking to soak up pressure and trying to hit them on the break, eventually your going to concede, Stoke for example we all knew what was coming and we all knew it was only a matter of tim before they scored.

when did Liverpool play so deep and then play so many long balls.He has got us into this mess with his tactics that the players do not believe in. Everything now is centred around the manager we cannot move forward until he has gone. Everytime he opens his mouth he puts his foot in it. We have sufficient quality in this team to beat Stoke and Wigan  and Blackpool and Northampton for that matter he is the problem him and him alone.

How can a team with Carragher, Skrtel, Sotis, Gerrard and Kuyt not be deemed physical enough?

Anyway if we cant match sides like Stoke for physicality why don't we learn to play around them get the ball down the flanks and open them up? Why are we (or in particular Carra) hoofing long balls up to our attack?

First loss there since 84. Physicality? What about mentality and tactical awareness

Not since the Days of Ron Yeats and Smithy have we had players who use their physicallity( Smithy was also a very acomplished player)We have been playing pass and move football for the best part of 50 years a lot of teams are only now thinking they have invented this but they need to look back at some of our football from 30 years ago to see how well we passed the ball.

Arsenal are looking good this year and there as tough as Audley Harrison on a Saturday night in Manchester.

Tatics are wrong, players are divided, no motivation and as Sunderland proved Chelsea are having a bad spell which we caught on. Lower teams play physical to stop the fast, pass and move grace you expect from the top teams, I would not advocate at all for that approach.

We went out much too negative, like all our away games so far. We wouldnt need to be tough in the box if we werent playing in our half the ENTIRE game, like we did at Stoke. Even in some of the home games, as soon as we go one goal up we seem to sit back deeper and deeper and invite the oppsition to come on to us, thats asking for trouble. It boils down to either negative tactics or lack of confidence. I think its understandable in the second half playing against the champions, but the entire game at Stoke ffs.!

Arsenal are looking good this year and there as tough as Audley Harrison on a Saturday night in Manchester.

Bollocks.  They are bottom of the fair play league in the Mail and mid-table in the PL one - they are not afraid to get physical and certainly put the tackles in!

What pissed me of more than anything on saturday was player for player you wouldnt swap any Stoke player for one of ours, so the problem lies in motivation and tactics ,the players dont need motivation for the likes of Chelsea but Wigan and Stoke away in mid november is a different story ,as for Hodgson he is caught between being afraid of getting beat and trying to win in pretty much the same way as Rafa,winning the odd away game will only get RH his P45 ,so looking at his away record it would be better for MR JW HENRY to sever the ties asap

Get Craig Johnston, only 3/4 the size of many of our current players, to come back and teach our international players how to harass the opposition players.

Not since the Days of Ron Yeats and Smithy have we had players who use their physicallity( Smithy was also a very accomplished player)We have been playing pass and move football for the best part of 50 years a lot of teams are only now thinking they have invented this but they need to look back at some of our football from 30 years ago to see how well we passed the ball.

Jimmy Case and Graeme Souness used to dish the dirt quite a bit though, they were hard but fair men.

Players these days are scared in case their hair gets put out of place  seriously though, you can't go near anyone these days and the ref blows his whistle, and the way some, or a lot actually go down like they've been shot is quite honestly pathetic, what I would like to see us do more is get in the face of an opposing player, harass him off the ball, don't give him any time to play the ball to a team mate, close him down and make him make a mistake.

I honestly feel that one of our biggest limiting factors is a lack of pace.  When we play against teams that put pressure on us when we have the ball, but also try to keep 10 men behind the ball (Wigan, Stoke, etc) we lack the pace on the outside to really take advantage of the counter attack opportunities when we get them.  We do alright against some of the bigger teams because they only defend with 7 or 8 behind the ball, and our players are given more space to play in.

I saw a few times against Stoke and Wigan when we would pick up the ball in midfield and look to start a counter, only for it to break down because our flanks (Maxi and Raul) don't have the pace or ability to take the ball on a 40 yard run and find Dirk or Nando in the box.  They hold the ball up and try to build an attack, but that just gives those teams that extra bit of time to get all of their players back into position.

I know Jovanovic doesn't have the skill on the ball that Maxi/Cole have, but his pace and direct running puts defenders under pressure, and he can make things happen for us.  The same goes for Babel.  For every 4 times he runs right into a defender or takes the ball straight out of bounds, there is one time that he beats a man and either gets in a decent shot or cross.  

I don't think Jova or Babel are going to be our saviors, but I do think that we need to play one of them against these type of teams just to keep some of the opposing defenders on the back foot and buy a little extra time and space for Nando and Kuyt to operate in.  But we clearly need to make a classy winger with pace a priority in Jan!

Jimmy Case  **    used to dish the dirt quite a bit though, ** hard but fair .

Players these days are scared in case their hair gets put out of place   seriously though, you can't go near anyone these days and the ref blows his whistle, and the way some, or a lot actually go down like they've been shot is quite honestly pathetic, what I would like to see us do more is get in the face of an opposing player, harass him off the ball, don't give him any time to play the ball to a team mate, close him down and make him make a mistake.

Jimmy Case.
A hero of mine.

Although he got an under 21 cap he never made the full England team whilst playing in a Liverpool side full of internationals.
He could stand head and shoulders above his team mates on some days and his work rate was unbelievevable.
A Garston lad he could mix it with the best out there.

Scored a blinder in the 77 Final against the Scum...

Jimmy Case

I don't think its a case of that to be honest, personally for me its all about tactics and pressing the opposition when we havent got the ball.

Take Chelsea for example in the first half we pressed them tirelesley and made them make mistakes which led to two goals and in the second half we were like a different team we dropped deep and let Chelsea play football and lets be honest we were very lucky to get 3 points if it wasn't for some great saves by Pepe.

The same apllies in the rest of the games this season we have not pressed the oppostion and we have allowed them to play football.

If as a team you play like a sponge looking to soak up pressure and trying to hit them on the break, eventually your going to concede, Stoke for example we all knew what was coming and we all knew it was only a matter of tim before they scored.

I agree that tactics and all around great football can overcome cheap, body breaking football.  But, I think you also need to have a presence on the field and send a message to teams that we can play tough when needed. Stoke was all over us, it wasnt diving or acting our players were getting lumped up, pushed, elbowed, grabbed from behind etc...Yes, a certain amount of that happens every match, but were not giving back. The hardest tackle I saw was Nando and he got a Yellow for his effort. Not too mention that I dont want our striker and goal scorer to be the one dishing out the physical play.

I just think we need to add some more physical play to the game.

Jimmy Case.
A hero of mine.

Although he got an under 21 cap he never made the full England team whilst playing in a Liverpool side full of internationals.
He could stand head and shoulders above his team mates on some days and his work rate was unbelievable.
A Garston lad he could mix it with the best out there.

Scored a blinder in the 77 Final against the Scum...

Jimmy Case

You and me both Eurored 
 
We need some more Jimmy Case's in the team today don't we,  such a power house of a player, a local lad with guts and determination and he scored some cracking goals as well, that 1977 FA Cup Final goal was the best one on the day by far.

Bollocks.  They are bottom of the fair play league in the Mail and mid-table in the PL one - they are not afraid to get physical and certainly put the tackles in!

Dirty does not mean tough. Were talking about Physical presence on set pieces and similar, read the OP. Stoke picked up the highest % of goals from set pieces, 67% last year. My point was Arsenal, conceded the highest proportion to set pieces yet are doing well in the league.

Not Bollox.

Tough does not mean "Dirty".  I dont for a second want a player who hits another player in the face when the ref isnt looking or trying to ruin a career by taking out someones knees.  I dont want that and would be ashamed if someone like that wore a Liverpool Jersey.  But, I think we need a attitude change and to create an environment both on the field and in the stands at Anfield.  Stoke were physical and in equal to that was the atmosphere at their ground. The supporters were fueling the play and it showed.  Anfield and the Liverpool supporters in the stands were the originators of " Home Field Advantage"  It used to be that Anfield was just as much a part of the winning at Liverpool as the players.  I have not been to Anfield, so this is purely what I see and hear from watching the matches online and TV, but it seems like the home support is not as much a factor as its been in the past. Just what I have seen so far this season. Not necessarily true for the KOP end, I hear them every match, but from the remaining stands, I dont hear as much.

I may be wrong their and I dont get the full feeling watching it on TV, but their was certainly a difference that I noticed immediately watching the Stoke match.

We're plenty tough enough.

Reina, Sotis, Skrtel, Carra (maybe) Gerrard, Lucas (yes he's a tough little f**ker) Kuyt and Torres are tough players.

Raul doesn't strike me as a shrinking violet, and neither does konchesky.

So yes, we're plenty tough enough, physically.

Mentally? That is another story under our current manager.

Jimmy Case.
A hero of mine.

...and mine  

I remember standing in the Anny Road - versus Wolves, Andy Gray had just signed for them for one and a half million (British record fee) from Villa. About one minute in, Jimmy hit Gray, in a 50/50; put the c**t five foot in the air. Gray didn't get a kick the rest of the game - too busy looking over his shoulder. We won 3-0.  

A proper hard man: our Jimmy.  

Loved Jimmy Case lost his place to Sami Lee that must have hurt. didnt he leave because of a misdemeanour.Scored some wonderful goals.

I just think we need to add some more physical play to the game.

Its hard to add physical play to the game when the manager sets you up as "Once you lose the ball retreat to the half way/18 yard line and get back into two banks of four and maintain your shape"

We played Physically against Chelsea in the first half, we hurried and hassled them and were in their faces to retrieve the ball.

In past seasons, we never really had a problem dealing physically with such teams as Stoke once Rafa had the measure of these more physical teams.  In essense, we had to press them and let them know we were there.  Roy's approach is to stand off and sit back, which immediately gives them the upper hand.  How he can not see that is just unbelievable.

So, no, I don't agree that we are not physical enough, it's the tactics.

We are tough enough our manager has us F***ing sitting off teams though that is the F***ing problem.

I don't think lack of physicality was the problem except maybe at centre-half -Skrtel has the physique to be a good centre half but isn't. 

His approach to defending set-pieces involving the constant manhandling of his man should have led to one, possibly two, Stoke penalties.  Although shirt pulling is de rigueur nowadays, Skrtel seems to be one of the worst and most blatant offenders and his marking technique needs to be addressed sharply.

If anything, the game called into question the mental toughness of the side and by extension the ethos of the manager.  Roll back 6 hours and look at the response at Villa Park to an adverse situation - much as you hate him, the mental qualities that SAF instils into his side are what make his sides so difficult to beat and ones that seem so lacking in the side under Roy Hodgson.

We don't press enough. But crucially we don't move at all off the ball. It looks absolutely horrific on tv. That's been the case for the past year and a bit so it's not just a problem that has been dug up by Hodgson.

That's been the case for the past year and a bit so it's not just a problem that has been dug up by Hodgson.

Agreed. ...

...but Hodgson is the man who's been detailed to "improve" on that. Oh. Holy. F**k. 

In past seasons, we never really had a problem dealing physically with such teams as Stoke once Rafa had the measure of these more physical teams.  In essense, we had to press them and let them know we were there.  Roy's approach is to stand off and sit back, which immediately gives them the upper hand.  How he can not see that is just unbelievable.

So, no, I don't agree that we are not physical enough, it's the tactics.

Spot on!

To be honest, a lot of teams struggle against teams like Stoke, Bolton and Wolves. They struggle with toughness. Its a a problem but there are other pressing matters, such as player-recruitment, that need to be addressed first.

To be honest, a lot of teams struggle against teams like Stoke, Bolton and Wolves. They struggle with toughness. Its a a problem but there are other pressing matters, such as player-recruitment, that need to be addressed first.

I'v been saying for months that Lucas gets bullied against these sort of teams, and just isn't up to it at this level. Then he has a stormer against Chelsea, just hope he keeps that up against Spurs.

I think Skertl is a monster and has no problem taking it to anyone on the pitch and Lucas is 50/50. Sometimes he is physical and plays tough and at other times he just seems to sit off the ball and waits for something to happen.

I think Reina is probably the baddest f**ker on the team. He challenges every striker that comes into that box and at times to a fault.

I just want to see more physical play. I think the game has changed from the silky smooth passing and finesse shots, to a more physical and tactical game which is faster, harder and were slowly seeing that only a few players now have the skills to actually dribble it past the defense and score. Were seeing more goals from long shots and straight up power.   Do you think someone like Pele could still play and be as successful as he was?

We need stronger CB. my choice is Hangeland.  

Kyrgiakos is strong enough to be our back four, he simply must be starting XI

We shouldn't be relying on being tough enough.  There's enough quality in this squad to pass the likes of Stoke/Blackburn/Wolves/Sunderland off the pitch.  We've got Kyrgiakos in defense to deal with their long-ball approach, hardly rocket science.

I don't think it's all about being tough. At the end of the day, tactics have to be right an it all comes down to managerial decisions. To think of it, we created many more chances under Rafa.

Down to tactics, not being tough. If we attack then and pass the ball well then no matter how tough the opposition is they will have to play.

Jimmy Case.
A hero of mine.

Although he got an under 21 cap he never made the full England team whilst playing in a Liverpool side full of internationals.
He could stand head and shoulders above his team mates on some days and his work rate was unbelievevable.
A Garston lad he could mix it with the best out there.

Scored a blinder in the 77 Final against the Scum...

i love that man, he was a tough nut but was so good on the ball.

In past seasons, we never really had a problem dealing physically with such teams as Stoke once Rafa had the measure of these more physical teams.  In essense, we had to press them and let them know we were there.  Roy's approach is to stand off and sit back, which immediately gives them the upper hand.  How he can not see that is just unbelievable.

So, no, I don't agree that we are not physical enough, it's the tactics.

This.
imo, no team can win the league with only physically tough players, anyway it's still necessary especially lack of physically tough might causing injury.