Benitez's Real Legacy

I don't think Hardcore gave "constructive comments on a former manager with no agenda implied" at all... The fact that he's said these comments in this topic shows imo that he has a Anti rafa agenda, despite him saying otherwise..

That's your prerogative mate but having read some serious anti-Rafa comment on the forum which are blatantly one sided he gives a comparetively unbiased informed opinion, personally I do rate Rafa and always have done but at the same time would be loathe to place him on a pedestal.

F**k me sideways again, it's like a f**king handbag fight in here. I've read every post in this topic so far and one thing has stood out more than anything.

Want to know what it is?.

I'll tell you then. Not one poster has thanked or credited José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell for the most important input into the youth system. As pointed out in the OP, the men that brought through players like Messi and Fabregas through the ranks at Barcelona. Well done to Rafa for securing their services, it was a masterstroke but it seems that almost everyone wants to credit Rafa for everything. Take a look at yourselves, this whole 'Rafa is God' bullshit is consuming the forum, so blind in belief that people forget the people behind the scenes who do all the ground work.

I've pretty much had a gutsful of the constant 'Rafa' inferrals in almost every thread recently. This won't stop me posting, even though I know that many don't want to read an unbiased viewpoint on the manager they held in such high esteem. I'll await the the usual 'pack' that will now try and shoot me down because I don't follow the majority. The same majority that paper over the cracks that appeared so glaringly during Rafa's last season in charge. We all know the truth behind Rafa's dismissal, he couldn't conquer the Premier League, some say that the Istanbul victory was an insurance policy, I'd go with that to be honest.

May I reiterate, I am not a 'Rafa hater', though many here will tar me with that brush and that is their prerogative. I saw a manager that was so obsessed with his philosophy that his failure to adapt or break from it ultimately led to his downfall. I am grateful for the Champions League and FA Cup, as grateful as I am to Dudek and Gerrard. I can look at Rafa objectively, that doesn't mean that I hate him.

Different people look at Rafa in different ways. Huyton Red has stated that Rafa gave him the greatest night of his life in Istanbul. Fair play, that was one hell of a night. I'm different, my greatest moment as a Liverpool fan was given by Kenny Dalglish. I was at Stamford Bridge the day we won our last league title in 1990, that was my greatest moment. So we have different views, no problem with that, it's the way it is.

I'll always judge a manager on the League, Rafa was a master in Europe but he never quite understood the League, his underestimation of 'supposedly' weaker opponents proved to be his achilles heel. As a fan myself I prioritise the League over anything else, it doesn't mean that I think any less of the other competitions as I want us to win every game we play. The Liverpool I was brought up on won League titles for fun. Ask any manager and they will always say that the League is always their number one priority. I think Rafa prioritised Europe before the League, that is just my opinion.

The real point of this post is that people have to try and understand why many fans have a gripe with Rafa. It doesn't mean they hate him and it doesn't warrant fellow fans trying to belittle other fans either. Just look at what Kenny is building here, he has brought everyone together as a unit. Every other word is 'we' or 'us'. We are a collective again, a family, a bastion, an institution.

Rafa did many great things during his tenure, but don't forget José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell, they deserve just as much praise as Rafa does.

 That's this thread summed up from my viewpoint. Brilliant post.

Which spaceship did Jose and Rodolfo beam down from I wonder. The arrogance of some people who just cant bare to speak of Rafa without a hint of negativity.The man is a champion not only in the country but in Spain too for someone to say how he can improve is laughable.Quite honestly I am sick of so called supporters having a go whenever the opportunity arises. He brought this club back to the top table of European clubs with 2 finals in just a couple of years and he came close to the league for the first time in 20 years.

Which spaceship did Jose and Rodolfo beam down from I wonder. The arrogance of some people who just cant bare to speak of Rafa without a hint of negativity.The man is a champion not only in the country but in Spain too for someone to say how he can improve is laughable.Quite honestly I am sick of so called supporters having a go whenever the opportunity arises. He brought this club back to the top table of European clubs with 2 finals in just a couple of years and he came close to the league for the first time in 20 years.

This sums it up exactly for me. Thankyou.

Sick of the Rafa bashers .

The man has more class in his little finger than the lot of the Rafa bashers put together.

Which spaceship did Jose and Rodolfo beam down from I wonder. The arrogance of some people who just cant bare to speak of Rafa without a hint of negativity.The man is a champion not only in the country but in Spain too for someone to say how he can improve is laughable.Quite honestly I am sick of so called supporters having a go whenever the opportunity arises. He brought this club back to the top table of European clubs with 2 finals in just a couple of years and he came close to the league for the first time in 20 years.

Just think the Rafa bashers saw him as a man who played negative football, did dodgy subs and transfers dealings. Basically, they are the type of fan who reads the daily mirror, watch SSN and watch the Reds on tv if there's nothing else on...in otherwords....Clueless clowns!

The amount of arguments Ive had with so called Reds about this is laughable. One of them even had the cheek to say what a signing Sterling was from QPR and what great shape our youth team is in. Im mean.....FFS!!!

Sort of proves the point !!!

Well I'm glad this thread didn't get destroyed by people going off on diatribes about how Rafa wasn't good enough . . .

Well I'm glad this thread didn't get destroyed by people going off on diatribes about how Rafa wasn't good enough . . .

Hehe what's the point racer, just read back through the thread only personal insults coming from people who think Rafa was god. Would never try and get people to change there opinion or say they are wrong because it's their opinion. But what grates are the people are idiots if they can't see this or that, people must watch sky sports or read the mirror if they don't agree with me threads, that's how arguments start on here.

But can we move on he has gone, I am sure posters could start threads ( loads of threads ) on his mistakes and what he did wrong whilst here, but guess what they don't as they have moved on. Your opinion is Rafa was good for the club I disagree it's life, but I am not going to start threads when another Journo puts the boot into Rafa so let's not start one when a Journo writes something you agree with let's move on.

I agree with Kenny Dalglish.

That is all.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm giving credit where it's due. After that I can't control the thread. Positivity regarding our youth system and giving Rafa credit for the changes he made gets shouted down by a lot of people on here. Yet it's amazing how quiet it would have been if it was posted in the youth thread because nobody would read it

This topic starts with a positive article with regards to Rafa's positive influence on the youth set up, should there be any room to criticise Benitez..?

People who find time to talk about how fans idolise Rafa (negative) in a topic like this one (positive) are self aware Rafa haters imo...
Even if they try to speak nicely of his achievements they ALWAYS finish with something negative...
I don't get fooled by the whole "Rafa was good BUT" facade ..

I don't think Hardcore gave "constructive comments on a former manager with no agenda implied" at all... The fact that he's said these comments in this topic shows imo that he has a Anti rafa agenda, despite him saying otherwise..

Do yourself a f**king favour, take your head out of your f**king arse will you?. You are a grade A numpty!. All you f**king do is throw accusations around without any form of back up, without any form of explanation.

Check through my post history and you'll find that I did back Rafa the majority of the time. I was also first to criticise when it was due. I'll tell you what, here's a f**king challenge for you.

Construct a detailed post, explaining your thought process or train of thought that leads you to the conclusion that I have an agenda or am 'anti' Rafa. Anti Rafa, how f**king childish does that sound.

I'll await patiently as you delve into the abyss of your cerebral cortex and reveal the tools of thought that would make Einstein jealous. Can't wait to read your reply to this post, should be really interesting.

Thank you kind sir.

That's your prerogative mate but having read some serious anti-Rafa comment on the forum which are blatantly one sided he gives a comparetively unbiased informed opinion, personally I do rate Rafa and always have done but at the same time would be loathe to place him on a pedestal.

Thanks stuey. It's obvious Rafa is a very good manager, he just isn't a great manager in my eyes. I particularly agree with the pedestal statement you made. I can give a very informed opinion on why he wasn't a great manager too, but i've posted it so many times and i'd really like to let Rafa go now. It's just when i see other posters placing him on this 'pedestal' i can't help myself.

Some posters only want to see the good in him and are loathe to chastise him for his terrible tactics and team selections in his final season here. For every one poster that can back up Rafa's flaws with coherent arguments there will always be 5 posters who'll pack hunt and try to grind them down with their 'lovely man' overtures.

The sentence i've highlighted in bold from your quote just about sums up my views, just that i can't sit back and say nothing when the 'pack' starts to hunt.

I'm a big fan of Rafa Hardcore but since Kenny took over I've been looking forward as I don't see the point in going over the same old ground in the Rafa debate.

He was an excellent manager for us, had a poor last season which I feel he deserved at least one more to put it right and left the club in a much better position than when he arrived.

But that's about it for me. He is gone now and we have to look forward and support Kenny and leave the past in the past.

This is a reply to waltonl4.

See it as you wish sir. Some people on here worship him and others chastise him. I do neither.

As you have the right to complain when supporters have a go, other supporters have the right to complain when supporters cream their pants just at the mention of his name. I find it quite sad that Rafa is constantly being dragged into topics when we currently have the last manager to win us the League in charge of us now.

Rafa had his chance and he fu**ed it big time.

I'm not saying I'm right but sometimes I think I'm the one of the few supporters who laughed at our team selection and tactics last season. Liverpool Football Club were playing some of the most dire and robotic, unnattractive football I have ever seen. Yet this hero manager couldn't find an answer where Kenny clearly has.

Oh yeah, I f**king forgot, it wasn't the managers fault, it couldn't possibly have been Rafa's fault, could it?. Please.

That's all well and good hardcoresoldier, and I understand that not every one thinks Rafa is a great manager, football is about opinions after all. Yet I think he is an unlucky manager. Unlucky in the timing of his stewardship as Liverpool manager. Think back to his good teams, particularly round 07-08, and finishing second to Man Utd we still needed two or three signings, but that was also the time that Hicks and Gillette's strangulation of Liverpool really started. I think any manager will have struggled with that situation, and i was lucky to see all the great Liverpool managers since Shanks.

I think with a lot of people it's frustration, that just as Rafa's teams were starting to really develop the yanks power really kicked in, so we were left with a moment of what if, rather than him having the chance of finishing what he stated.

Football is always about opinions at the end of the day, but I will curse the day those 2 arrived on the Anfield scene, as sadly it prevented Rafa from having his chance to finish the job. Sadly we will never know if that would of ended with our 19th Championship.   

I'm a big fan of Rafa Hardcore but since Kenny took over I've been looking forward as I don't see the point in going over the same old ground in the Rafa debate.

He was an excellent manager for us, had a poor last season which I feel he deserved at least one more to put it right and left the club in a much better position than when he arrived.

But that's about it for me. He is gone now and we have to look forward and support Kenny and leave the past in the past.

I agree with everything you say mate. Let's just say that it most certainly not me that is starting these debates. Unfortunately they get taken over by pack hunters and i can't help but defend the wounded animal. I said in the Rafa: Torres was worth £70 million topic that i wanted an end to it. I'm really happy with Kenny, he would be my first choice regardless. They really have 2 different philosophies on how football should be played, i'll go with that of Kenny everytime. We're not playing excellent football over the last couple of games but we're playing a damn sight better than we did under Rafa and Roy also.

That's all well and good hardcoresoldier, and I understand that not every one thinks Rafa is a great manager, football is about opinions after all. Yet I think he is an unlucky manager. Unlucky in the timing of his stewardship as Liverpool manager. Think back to his good teams, particularly round 07-08, and finishing second to Man Utd we still needed two or three signings, but that was also the time that Hicks and Gillette's strangulation of Liverpool really started. I think any manager will have struggled with that situation, and I was lucky to see all the great Liverpool managers since Shanks.

I think with a lot of people it's frustration, that just as Rafa's teams were starting to really develop the yanks power really kicked in, so we were left with a moment of what if, rather than him having the chance of finishing what he stated.

Football is always about opinions at the end of the day, but I will curse the day those 2 arrived on the Anfield scene, as sadly it prevented Rafa from having his chance to finish the job. Sadly we will never know if that would of ended with our 19th Championship.   

Fair enough, as you said, our opinions. We all know about the H&G effect. That doesn't change my opinion of Rafa as a manager though. I'd just like to get that point across. In his last season here we were underperforming severely, never mind the lack of funds. He was not getting the best out of the players at his disposal and there were factions in the squad. There was no unity, no cohesion and no belief left. The loss of one player and his inability to accommodate the loss ultimately cost him his job. The guarantee of fourth was his death warrant, he should never have said it.

Well I think Rafa is a great manager and always have and can say yes he did get a lot of things wrong in his final season, but I can also give him the benefit of the doubt due to lack of investment and the injuries we had in the 09/10 season, which were constant throughout the season from pre-season and at one point we had what would be considered 11 first team squad players ruled out and some members of the squad getting Horse Placenta rubbed all over them.

So whilst I can question his selections, tactics, substitutions a part of me thinks through an awful lot of the season he had no alternative but to put square pegs in round holes, then when it came down to choesion and unity in the squad, I honestly think we have all under-estimated the damage to player moral caused by lack of investment, looking back in hindsight, both Mascherano and Torres could not wait to get away and that tells a story in itself.

That's without mentioning the loss of Alonso, Hyppia, and Arbeloa who were 3 very solid players for us and the effect on the morale that must have had even more so when the owners were penny pinching and not allowing the money to be reinvested in the squad, bearing in mind we had to settle for Soto because the board wouldnt realease any more money, then there was the Aquilani deal, if the money had been available I really don't think we'd have signed him.

Then we had the dodgy refeering decisions (beachball goal anyone ?), so there's just far too many variables to lay all the blame at Rafa's door for the 09/10 season, it was lots of little things that if they had happened individually we'd have probably soldiered on, but combine them all and the snowball effect it gained, it crippled us and had a negative impact on our football and the results.

Most of our problems under Rafa started in the boardroom they just filtered there way down onto the pitch, the cancer at the top took the club to the brink of administration so realistically, we were lucky to have Rafa, it could so easily have went the other way and done a leeds and we've all seen how easy it for the wrong man to flirt with relegation.

Seriously though if your looking for the real reason it all went Pete Tong, look no further than the Goatee.

But anyway Kenny is in Charge so look forwards and not backwards, Thanks Rafa for your time here which I'll always remember fondly, both the high's and the lows and thanks for the parting gifts you left us at the academy, both the coaches and players.

It may have taken a 9-0 win for some of the changes to get media recognition, but some of us have already seen the impact the change has made. We have been talking about it on here for the last year. You're just another hater, but that's says more about you than it does the system that Rafa has left us

"Hater"?? What are you, some 15yr old council estate chavette?!

If you bothered to try and understand my post, it ridicules the suggestion that Houllier was largely responsible for our CL win therefore giving full credit to Benitez. I'd love you to explain how that makes me a "hater"!

I was a big fan of Rafa, thought he was a superb tactician but possibly lacked in other areas of management. But he's gone now.

"Hater"?? What are you, some 15yr old council estate chavette?!

If you bothered to try and understand my post, it ridicules the suggestion that Houllier was largely responsible for our CL win therefore giving full credit to Benitez. I'd love you to explain how that makes me a "hater"!

I was a big fan of Rafa, thought he was a superb tactician but possibly lacked in other areas of management. But he's gone now.

That's just like saying GH's legacy was us winning the champions league a year after he left. A ridiculous article by a journo with nothing better to do - for god's sake, it's one victory against a minnow at youth level!!! Hardly a "turning point in our history", as Dick Buxton is claiming!

No it's using the dismissal of Gerard Houllier's claims that it was his team that one the Champion's League to suggest we should dismiss Rafa Benitez's involvement in the overhaul of the youth system.

If there is anyone that needs to understand something here it's you, but I'm not about to waste my time trying to enlighten you on the vast improvement in our youth setup

Rafa Benitez is a great manager and a legend.

.

Excellent earlier post Daz and the final sentence puts the whole shooting match into perspective, it's a well deserved + for your goodself.

"Hater"?? What are you, some 15yr old council estate chavette?!

If you bothered to try and understand my post, it ridicules the suggestion that Houllier was largely responsible for our CL win therefore giving full credit to Benitez. I'd love you to explain how that makes me a "hater"!

I was a big fan of Rafa, thought he was a superb tactician but possibly lacked in other areas of management. But he's gone now.

You were always slagging Rafa off.

And what the F**k is  council estate chavette?

This some sort of southern language I'm missing out on.

We don't have chavs round here, only scallies!!