Nowhere to hide - the harsh reality

I've stayed away from the forum for a few days. I was as disappointed as I've been in many a year in us against Bolton, and I just couldn't stomach discussing it. It's not that I don't think some posters are justified in their reactions, I just didn't want to hear it to be totally honest. Now I've had a chance to calm down though, I thought I'd try and get a bit of a level headed discussion going about where we are, and we need to be. How successful have we been, where do we go from here? I'd ask posters to try and leave pre-ordained agendas at the door here, and for once lets honestly assess things .

Firstly the signings under Kenny.

Clearly Suarez and Enrique are both unqualified successes, I don't think anyone would argue with that. Then though we have Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam. They represent an outlay of 80 million quid give or take a mill or two here and there, and they have contributed very little. We can argue till we are blue in the face about whether or not they are good enough to pull on the shirt, and in fairness to them all of have had decent games, but ultimately the return so far isn't nearly good enough. All four in my eyes either need to improve significantly before the end of the season, or they must be considered questionable buys at best or poor at worst. Only Adam could hide behind the "ah well he was relatively cheap so he's only a squad player anyway" line, the rest were big money and as such we are entitled to expect some impact. Unfortunately the last three managers have made too many poor buys (although in fairness to Benitez he made some excellent ones at first) and it's costing us big time.

Now as far as the signings are concerned, it matters not a bag of chips if anybody said in advance they didn't think they'd work out before we bought them. The point is we have the players now, and Kenny has the job of making them work to somewhere near the best of their ability or moving them on. So what is the best of their ability?

Carroll: For me he has gone backwards and is continuing so to do. People saying "I always said he wouldn't be any good" may well have had a point, but surely nobody can dispute the player we are seeing now is a shadow of the one we bought. The one we bought was a beast of pent up aggression, bullying defenders and winning everything. IMHO Carroll needs to get back to that or f*ck off. He needs a rocket up his arsehole does the lad and no mistake. No more pats on the shoulder, he needs to want it more pure and simple. Yes we can supply him better, but good strikers are a pain in the @rse to play against regardless of service.

Downing: I'd give him a go centrally, a little like Martin O'Neill did with Milner. He needs a rocket up his jacksy n'all though, looks like he's going to church not going to play football. I'm surprised he gave his bird a right hander, not that I'd condone that obviously but I thought it would more likely be the other way around. He needs to get his backside into the box when it's off the other flank (like he did for Villa when he scored against us) and he needs to work harder when we haven't got it.

Henderson: Soft as sh!te. Needs to get his foot in, needs pinning up against a wall by his throat and asking if he really wants to make it or not. Bags of talent, but not good enough to be able to float through games like he thinks he can without getting his kit dirty. He's talented, but he's nowhere near so gifted as a Modric or a Silva, and BOTH of them put far more work in than he does. Another rocket up the @rsehole needed here. He ought to score regularly and cause goals to be scored regularly, as well as getting some important tackles in.

Adam: Started well but the own goal and missed penalty have destroyed him. Currently an absolute liability, and if he doesn't pull his finger out of his erse we should sell him at the end of the season and get our money back. 




The team as a whole:

Yes we need time to "gel", and yes Rome wasn't built in a day. Yes Kenny is the king, and yes we all love him. That doesn't mean though that there's a blank cheque of patience, a blindfold which makes people oblivious to sh!t like we saw the other night. Kenny either needs to get this lot playing, or f*ck them off and start again. It's a horrible thought, but lose our next two and we could win feck all again and finish 7th again. Having spashed the big cash, that would be a poor effort. I would certainly have called it if Benitez were in charge (I did when he steered us into 7th two seasons ago) and I called it when Hodgson did the same.

No more of this bullsh!t, lets have the same pride for the shirt as the fans have. That is the very least we demand.

I agree, but what upsets me is that these players are not the worst players (technically), they are simply not giving 100% every game. I also believe that these guys arent good enough to win a title, however this team as a whole is good enough to get into the top4, which is our target.

These players need a reality check and need to take a good long look in the mirror regarding their effort each game and remember who they are playing for.

The sesnisble level headed person in me says, overall the squad have done pretty well.

Had it not been for poor finishing and a little bit if luck we'd be sat higher in the table than what we are currently.

Granted some players have not performed to the level that we expected and deserve criticism.

But overall there is only two maybe three times at a push this season I feel the squad of players let us down.

Spurs, Swansea and Bolton, those aside I feel we deserved more than we got out of all teh games we've drawn/lost.

Now I'm going to go against the grain and some may not like it.

But over the majority of the games we have created enough the chances to win the games in question.

So for me over all the situation we are in comes down to players not taking their chances.

Now people will point to Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Adam, Kuyt and put the blame at their doors.

But you also need to take a look at Suarez.

Suarez is our forward along with Carroll and his conversion rate and goals tally have been piss poor.

Also his ban is not helping us at all.

Now Suarez should never have got into that confrontation with Evra and the ban is his own doing.

Now I don't believe Suarez is as guilty as presumed, but I also don't think he's as innocent as he claims to be.

If he was not refrencing to Evra's sking colour, why did he pinch his skin ?

So whilst some may seem easy targets, there is other people who deserve some criticism too.

We've not been helped by the absense of Lucas for sure, but Steven Gerrard and Charlie Adam in central midfield should have been good enough to stop Bolton playing through them, bearing in mind two goals ahainst us came from straight down the middle with neither Gerrard or Adam tracking their runners.

So heres where I'm at over all in the majority of games of the season collectivelly our squad has been pretty much ok, they have let us and themselves down on three occassions, individually then there have been players who've let themselves and us down in more than three games.

I still think if we can add some more quality this squad of players without the need to really get rid off anyone barring Carroll, I just don't think Carroll will ever adjust to the type of football Kenny wants to play.

The only Culls in the squad I would be really considering at this moment in time is getting rid of some of the older heads in the summer, Kuyt, Maxi, Bellamy & Aurelio and then also Carroll and replacing them with hopefully better players.

bigmick

Good post mate, sad but true. 

 

Carrol does not suit our so called style of play and that stands ou tlike  a sore thumb so who bought him and why?.Henderson is a waste of space out wide and has probably played more because of stevies injuries.
Adam needs Lucas alongside just as Xabi Alonso did him and Stevie just don't do it. Downing dosen't seem to understand what his role is and lacks confidence.
We seemed to have a settled back 4 and have a few options at full back and C/B but wide right and central midfield is a problem and as we now know without Luis up front we are quite static and easy to handle.
Having said that we have beaten some good teams away from home were over the last few years we have struggled so wtf is going on it has to be attitude.
Souness would not have let players hide as they did against Bolton and either would Jamie so we are a quiet team on the pitch at the moment it needs someone to take charge Stevie isn't a vocal Captain and if you look around other than Bellamy they also seem quiet TBH.
We need an Animal in the side to put some fire into people's bellies and show a bit of passion when its needed.

Players who have not been good enough this season:
Gerrard - Injured far too often
Carroll - lacks pace, and frankly everything at the moment
Kuyt - Has been poor all season
Downing - Does not seem to know how to attack anymore
Adam - Started OK, but has declined massively.

Players who have been ok this season:
Johnson - but a little inconsistent
Enrique - Class - but needs to hoof it sometimes rather than dribbling all the time
Agger - Injury free run for a while - was poor Saturday though.
Suarez - Needs to score more and keep his mouth shut.
Maxi - Has been ok when selected
Henderson - Looks decent, needs to improve still.
Coates - Will be a 1st choice in 1-2 seasons time.
Spearing - done well when selected
Carragher - No nonsense - speed lets him down.

Players who have shone this season:
Lucas - Such a cruel blow with the injury
Reina - Has saved us many a times.
Bellamy- My player of the season so far.

We are where we've been for a number of years, a squad brimming with decent players who feel they play for Liverpool therefore need to only turn up against certain sides and we'll win. I don't know if these players coming from smaller clubs just assume that because they're at the most successful club in England they've made it and no longer need to graft but that's what it looks like. I'm not gonna slag one or two players off because we win, lose and draw as a team.

Also, in the last couple of weeks I've been more impressed by Carroll than I have some of the others. Still needs work obviously but he scored against Oldham, put in a proper shift against City only to be dropped against Stoke and then against Bolton he played two of the best passes we made all game as well as the flick on for Bellamy's goal. Henderson still has something, unfortunately though he's no right winger and does look lost at times out there. Again though, I thought he was one of the brighter sparks against Bolton - constantly got back to cover for Johnson. Downing needs to recapture the form he showed at the start of the season as does Adam.

For me, the mistakes and the poor play in recent weeks has come from players who've been here for two or three seasons now. It's not the "new" players but they're the easy targets. Can't have a go at Kuyt cos he scored a hattrick against United and many other crucial goals. Can't have a go at Maxi cos he's played x amount of games for Argentina. Can't have a go at Johnson cos he's the best right back in the League. Can't have a go at Gerrard cos he's Stevie G. So the easy targets are the "new" players which is totally F***ing wrong.

We're a team, not 11 individuals but 11 players playing together. The team wins, the team loses, the team draws together.

One thing constantly said when Kenny returned as manager was how the club, and more importantly the fans, would unite. I don't think we have. If anything, we're split more than we ever have been. Under Hicks and Gillett, we were united in getting rid of them. Under Hodgson, we were united in knowing we weren't good enough - though some of us, myself included, did still try and support the manager. Under Kenny, we're not united because there's some who think Kenny isn't right for the job, their opinions split on players, there's some down right hatred for certain players, there is split opinions on the Suarez race incident, there's split opinions on the owners. There isn't a togetherness among us as fans.

That's where we are and where we need to be is where we were the day Kenny took over. Kenny took over and we did unite, 12 months later and there's the infighting again.

Now is the time we do need to be as one because we are struggling on the pitch. Now is when Liverpool fans sing louder, prouder and more often. As soon as one song finishes, another starts. Now is the time when Liverpool Football Club stand together and F**k the bitchiness or the petty squabbles and simply stand shoulder to shoulder against the common enemy - every other F***ing c**t.

I'm not talking about the City or United games because everyone will be wired from the off for those games. I'm talking for a week's time when we travel to Wolves. A ground that we've actually won the League on with Toshack's goals. The fans coming running onto the pitch to celebrate. That's where we need to be together and hopefully the players respond.

It's been a disappointing season but it's not time for us to throw in the towel. We can still get where most would be happy with. We're in a major cup semi final for the first time in years, this time we didn't need to be knocked out of another competition to get in it either. We're in the driving seat in that semi final. We're 90 minutes away from Wembley and those 90 minutes are to be played in front of our own fans at the home of Liverpool Football Club.

So yeah, we're not playing as well as we can but that's the team, not just one or two players. And yeah we're not top of the League like we'd all wish we were but again that's the team who has gotten us 7th, not just one or two players. And yeah, we will win the Carling Cup, we will win the FA Cup and we will finish the season is the top four and that will be because we're a team and not just one or two players.

Billy that is a very good post.

I don't know if im alone in this, but overall I'm happy with our progression, I just think with a little bit of luck and for being more clinical in front of goal, we'd be sat in the top 4.

I was going to start a thread called "A Half Season Of Missed Opportunities", highlighting just how well we have done in games and mostly for scant reward.

Then the Suarez FA documents were released and it went to pot, then I thought I'd do it after that then the E-Petition came to light.

But if any one looks at our fixtures on LFC TV and looks at fixture individually, we've bossed most teams we've played against, we've just lacked that killer instinct.

Billy that is a very good post.

I do produce them from time to time mate

To post, Billy. Can't say I disagree with any of that.

 Top post Bill and I agree with most of it as well. I supported Hodgson too, simply because that's what we do. I 100% support Kenny and believe in him as well, but some of the lads he's signed need a rocket.

Top post Bill and I agree with most of it as well. I supported Hodgson too, simply because that's what we do. I 100% support Kenny and believe in him as well, but some of the lads he's signed need a rocket.

Some of the lads he didn't sign need that same rocket though mate.

Some of the lads he didn't sign need that same rocket though mate.

 Very true. Some have been good servants but have gone over the top, Kuyt being the most glaring example.

Top post Bill and I agree with most of it as well. I supported Hodgson too, simply because that's what we do. I 100% support Kenny and believe in him as well, but some of the lads he's signed need a rocket.

They got a rocket following the match against Bolton mate on live TV and I don't believe for a second it started or ended there.

Its how they react to it now that concerns me.

Will some hide and play it safe everytime because they are frightened of getting it wrong ?

Or Will they come out fighting and take it out on the opposition ?, Guess we'll find out Wednesday night.

I think this club is better than our record, that being said a great NFL coach once said "You are what your record says you are" and right now we are a 7th place team.

Two biggest factors to our struggles seem to be the Lucas injury and the Suarez ban. It was always going to take this team some time to really hit their stride together, so many new faces and with seemingly constant lineup changes that's just a growing pain that we have to deal with...but the injury and the ban really have handcuffed KK. I still think we need to add a clinical type striker in this window (or maybe two). Might just take someone to come in and lead the way to get everyone fired up and hitting their stride. Honestly don't think the likes of Downing, Adam, Hendo and Carroll aren't good enough...but at this point they just don't know what kind of effort is needed to be a first team player on a top flight club. That's what Kenny is hopefully trying to impress upon them and we can only hope they will get that message sooner than later. YNWA

They got a rocket following the match against Bolton mate on live TV and I don't believe for a second it started or ended there.

Its how they react to it now that concerns me.

Will some hide and play it safe everytime because they are frightened of getting it wrong ?

Or Will they come out fighting and take it out on the opposition ?, Guess we'll find out Wednesday night.

I have the same worries mate.

When I mentioned Kenny's reaction after the Bolton game to a friend, he asked if he was one of those managers who follow the philosophy "I win, we draw, they lose" - as a lot of Brazilian managers seem to do -, the kind of attitude I hate with all my heart.

I explained to him that even if it did look like that, Kenny is far from being that kind of man. He always defends his players in a way very few managers do. But the players did deserve to hear all he said this time. Maybe not publicly but if it helps him to make a point to his players, then so be it.

Now I worry about how they'll react, especially cause some of our worst performers this season have constantly been labeled as "confidence players" (or something like that). I've said time and time again that I think confidence can only be an excuse until an extent. If you're going to play for the biggest club in the country, you either have the balls for it or you don't. We must not act like babysitters to highly paid professionals forever. Hopefully they've got the message and will bounce back to winning ways.

bigmick - some good points raised in your OP.

Agree some of the signings have worked out, some haven't.

Suarez, Enrique, Bellamy have been good signings.

Adam, Downing, Carroll haven't.

Jury still out on Henderson.  In his defence he has been forced to play on the wing - he has looked much better in central midfield.

To be fair - if you get 50% of your signings doing great then in modern football you are doing fantastically well.  If we can keep doing well out of half our future signings then it won't take long to make huge leaps forward.

The problem is, perversely, that some LFC fans are so used to looking at the prices - and the fact is that our best 3 signings totalled £30M.  Our worst 3 signings totalled £60M.  If the price tags had been reversed then it wouldn't seem so bad.

The only other issue I have with your post is about Downing.  You say we should play him centrally.

In my opinion the boy is not doing what he could do at Villa on the wing.  He is not going past players.  He is not creating chances and scoring goals.  He either pulls his finger out and does the job he is supposed to in his natural position or he can practice in the reserves.  He has either got confidence problems or laziness problems.  Liverpool fans, at the very least, expect a similar level of ability that he was showing 12 months ago.

Suarez, Enrique, Bellamy have been good signings.

Adam, Downing, Carroll haven't.

The problem is Bellamy is a bit part player who'll hardly be here for much longer, and while Enrique theoretically solved a problem in the squad, we were actually doing quite well with Kelly and Johnson as our fullbacks. In terms of squad depth, our transfer market activity under Kenny has been massive. But in the starting lineup, the only player to make a significant improvement in the team was Suarez.

I post very little so not as informed as many. However everyone with an interest in the game deserves to comment. While i will never question Kenny in terms of what he means to LFC nobody is above the club so nobody is above criticism. What i mean by this is the ultimate responsibility is between manager and players. Buck stops with them and at the moment LFC are not good enough. The Suarez situation has not helped but i believe that show of support against Wigan was counterproductive and i would ask why Kenny as much as he loves the club took the stance he did. If the incident happened against a player from a club other than Man Utd i wonder would such a situation have materialised. Are we at the point of obsession about Utd that deflects from what we should be trying to achieve like they were about LFC when LFC dominated in the '70's and '80's. I mean the FA Cup match will come, Anfield will be rocking, the players will be massively up for it but will it not be just the same post Saturday. I mean why cannot the team be as up for matches with Bolton, Swansea, Norwich etc. as they are for Utd. The bigger picture seems to pass over us these days.

The only other issue I have with your post is about Downing.  You say we should play him centrally.

In my opinion the boy is not doing what he could do at Villa on the wing.  He is not going past players.  He is not creating chances and scoring goals.  He either pulls his finger out and does the job he is supposed to in his natural position or he can practice in the reserves.  He has either got confidence problems or laziness problems.  Liverpool fans, at the very least, expect a similar level of ability that he was showing 12 months ago.

The problem with Downing is that he scored/created so many of his goals for Villa on the counter.  They would use the pace of Young, Bent, Agbonlahor, Downing, and Albrighton to hit out on the counter and create opportunities when the opposition's back line was retreating.  However, due to the patient pass and move style that Dalglish has us playing, we offer little to no threat on the counter attack.  We could provide a reasonable threat on the counter when we get Suarez back if we can put Downing/Suarez/Bellamy as our front 3 with Gerrard in behind them.  That would give us enough pace & ability to cause some problems on the counter attack. 

Suarez's return to action just can't come soon enough....

We could provide a reasonable threat on the counter when we get Suarez back if we can put Downing/Suarez/Bellamy as our front 3 with Gerrard in behind them.  That would give us enough pace & ability to cause some problems on the counter attack.

totally agree with this. at the moment we are like a limp turtle in attack. but these 3 with Gerrard behind could offer us more cutting edge. Gerrard will hopefully get more of his speed back and with reina's passing ability we should defo be breaking quicker.

Now I worry about how they'll react, especially cause some of our worst performers this season have constantly been labeled as "confidence players" (or something like that). I've said time and time again that I think confidence can only be an excuse until an extent. If you're going to play for the biggest club in the country, you either have the balls for it or you don't.

I see where you're coming from regarding how they react and if payers can't respond after a public criticism then it might be best to find out now than go another season or two still not winning anything with players who don't realise the standards we expect.

I really don't care if a few players are sitting now pissed off because Kenny had a go as it doesn't happen very often and needed to be said after Saturday.

I know if I was a manager taking over a team I'd prefer to try to get the best out of Ryan Babel, Joe Cole and Aquilani or Meireles rather than Downing, Carroll and Adam. Some of the decisions that have been made were not putting enough emphasis on talent and we have ended up with less talented than we got rid of. We need to put more faith in buying skillful players than we have in the last year because we have bought predictable players and can see the results of it.