Coherence... please?

2011-12 was a bitter sweet season, and so were the discussions on this forum. However, with all the differences of opinions here, it's safe to say the vast majority still wanted King Kenny to stay at the club for another year.

But he didn't. And then people started to get really angry with the owners and the choices they made.

Brendan Rodgers is one of their choices.

He's had a difficult start to his career with only 12 points from 11 games.

Last season, a lot of people seemingly didn't care about 8th being our worst league finish in decades, and they never took seriously the stats that said that at some point we had our worst run of form since the 50's. So isn't it funny to see the same people getting all worked up on how this season's is our worst start to a league campaign since... since... (I don't remember)?

Yes, it is!

After all, how is that even fair to judge a manager after only 12 games? If it supposedly wasn't fair to judge the previous manager on 1 year and a half, then please let's just have a little more coherence with the new one.

What does it matter our number of points in November, really? Absolutely nothing. It's the final position that matters and we're still very far from it. Last season we had an even worst league run over 12 games. And in the end, it just didn't matter one little bit when it happened - in the start, in the middle or in the end of the season. Don't you remember... this?

0-0 Spurs @ Anfield
1-2 Man Utd @ Old Trafford
1-2 Arsenal @ Anfield
0-1 Sunderland @ Stadium of Light
3-0 Everton @ Anfield
2-3 QPR @ Loftus Road
1-2 Wigan @ Anfield
0-2 Newcastle @ St James Park
1-1 Aston Villa @ Anfield
3-2 Blackburn @ Ewood Park
0-1 WBA @ Anfield

What's that? 8 points from 11 games (6 of whom were at home), if my math is right.

That is not to mention the difference in the amount of money each manager had to spend, and the fact that this season, we had the most difficult schedule of the whole league in the first games of the season. All of that with a new manager trying to change things at the club.


Don't get me wrong - I think Kenny deserved more time and I agree there are reasons to be angry with the owners. But if you think 1 year and half isn't time enough to judge a manager that spent quite a lot of money, then don't get all stupid after 12 F***ing games with the new one who's seen more players going than coming.

And most of all I hope you don't come back here in the future to lecture people about your understanding of "the Liverpool way".

Superb post - a lot of slaps of reality in there

Yip, there are some fans who just need to step back and realize it wont happen over night, we have not won the league for 22 years, we aint gonna win it any time soon, we are back to where we were when rafa took over IMO, and he had a 5 year plan that was going well till the first yanks took over, look how bad that ended.

Kenny did a great job getting the heart back after the old barn owl & hicks n co bled us dry and starved us of decent footi.

Kenny won us a cup and got to the FA cup final and got us Europa football, but that was not enough for the new owners, which in a way shows how ambitious they are now.

So lets get behind Brendan and the team, they are actually looking good, the young guys are coming through, suarez is on fire. Just watch if we put 3 wins together in the league we will be near the top 4, the leaue is very tight. it aint all that bad. #ynwa

Good post Diego, nice peice of reality..

I promised myself im not going to get involved in talk regarding the owners now until after the January window because that is their next chance to move the club forward and as we are still 6 week ahead of that time its time to let actions speak rather than re hash old debates..
So i guess this is my last chance to speak about them for 6 weeks or so.. I have criticised them for things they have gotten wrong in my opinion and rightly so.. I have also given them credit for things they have gotten right and rightly so..  But whilst we are talking realism i have seen over the last few days people saying that if they sold Suarez (Wont happen in January) that they will be in for a worse ride than the previous owners... Eh? Look they were bleeding the club dry and started the decline to what we are seeing now.. These whilst not perfect arent in the same boat, and whomever they decide to sell would at the end of the day be run through the management team.. Kenny and Comolli with Torres.. Brendan with Suarez. Brendan has stated he wont entertain offers. Case closed for now.
But people need to realise that there would be nothing we could do anyway.. Look at the Glazer's, pissing hated by the most part of UTD fans.. But where are they now? Have they forced them out with that pathetic Norwich city scarf thing? No.. Liverpool football got rid of the last owners because the banks told them so, they gave them no choice.. They dug their heels in against fans and it was the banks who got them out..
Owners dont care if they arte unpoplar, they will sell on their terms.. It may make us feel better to rant but its just hot air and a means to get it off our chest.. Nothing can be done.

We need to just hope they do move us forward, if not then eventually they will probably sell up anyway. We are secure as a club we need to just hope that their plan does indeed move us in the right direction starting January.

Thats me out until Febuary on the owners.

In terms of your post Diego, its a good one no doubt but... Certainly from my point of view anyway, i felt it was wrong sacking Kenny, i did and i do.. That doesnt mean im not fully behind Brendan.. I am.. I dont think ive read anywhere at all anyone even mentioning wanting Brendan out? Ive missed it if so.. There may have been the odd tongue in cheek post regarding last season to this.. And judging both the same..? But id think and hope 100% of fans are behind Brendan.. Im sure they are.
I am and he will always get my support.. He needs the full term of his contract to build something, ive said before and ill say again that we will get nowhere by sacking managers every season or 18 months.. Not with how we are doing it especially.. If we are doing it on a tighter bidget then the manager needs to plan for the next 4 windows, not just one and get instant success.
How i mean is this..

If Brendan gets 3 players this past summer.. (Borini, Allen, Assaidi) Plus one on loan.. Then thats not going to going to instantly solve our squad, if he knows he has say 30 million net per summer then he needs to be looking at the next 2 windows to bring in his type of players already.. To fit his ethos..
What we cant do even if we finish 8th this season is sack Brendan, a new manager comes in and doesnt fancy Allen, Assaidi and Borini and the process starts again.. and again... and again.. We as in the fans and the board need to show some balls and stick with the plan.. Or we will never move forward.. Wasting money that could be spent in the market on manager pay offs..

My view on kenny is he should have been given longer, take away that its Kenny, i mean for the reason above.. The fact that its Kenny sticks in my throat and makes it harder to let go though ill admit because its Kenny..


But thats being said im going to stay away from Kenny talk as we need to get behind the manager now and i dont want people to be forced away from the site by not wanting to read those debates all the time...

Kenny i love you boss... Ill always respect you and you will always be my football hero..


The sentiment is right though, lets all move on, lets debate the here and now.. Lets hope we bring in a couple of players in january...


Walk on

Thank you!

Well said bud.

Whether the word coherence is the right one ...........

Much of what you say makes perfect sense.

We are not exactly at a good point in the cycle of development and if we wernt good for the last two years with splashing the cash then we aint going to be in Dreamland any time soon.

Of course being debt free is good. Very good. Not just for us and hopeful transfer money but for the owners business.

Redeveloping Anfield probably is the most cost efficient option ( Ayres Quote : Why pay 3 to 400 million just for 20,000 more seats ?)
However dropping that out in a very big softening up message on the last edition of " Being Liverpool " giving the Fenway/Anfield love thing ...broadcast a couple of nights before the Official Announcement ...meant that the decision had been made way back at the latest earlier in the year.
You could see through that one.
Not even subtle.

Not buying just ONE proven striker FFS  during the whole of the Summer Transfer Window smacked of accounting practice.
Yes.
They justified the new contracts " Hey Its just like a new signing isnt it"  but no big money was spent.

We are told that January will be a great month ...... but even Kenny said that you can't get the players you perhaps want because any one good will be in the CL and tied for that.

It is the hoof in mouths by the club that are difficult to comprehend.

More than anything it is the fact that along the other end of the East Lancs another club sit a top the table. Again.
They went about their business clinically to solve a goalscoring problem with RVP and however unpalatable it may be to us all they seem able with sickening continuity not to shoot themselves whilst keeping their teams in transition and successful.
I never thought I would say that.

They have debt. A lot of but they have reduced it significantly.
Look at their income streams from their recently published accounts. We are just nowhere near ....at the moment.

They took our mantle with league titles (whilst we slept on our laurels)    ... but not the rest.
We want it back and we have the capability now ...over say a Rafa style 5 year plan ...to get it back.

Allowances are made for FSG to make it up as they go along but they have been in place for two years now.
Yes the league has changed with City and the Chav's deep pockets but that will iron itself out with Fair Play Rules.

At the moment we know there is "transition" which is basically a cop out word.

However.
This is a democratic open forum and if we ain't happy then we ain't happy and have the inalienable right to say it .... as well as what we think it will take to put right.

Get behind the manager and get behind the team.
That is a given for Liverpool Football Club.

At the moment it doesn't feel like Liverpool Football Club.
The soul is behind a shadow and the Boot Room has gone for a walk.

As my footer says.
If it wasn't for one Liverpool player ...the only really successful purchase in the last couple of years ...we would be propping up the rest of the Premier League in 20th position.

That is scary.

In terms of your post Diego, its a good one no doubt but... Certainly from my point of view anyway, i felt it was wrong sacking Kenny, i did and i do.. That doesnt mean im not fully behind Brendan.. I am.. I dont think ive read anywhere at all anyone even mentioning wanting Brendan out? Ive missed it if so

You know what?... I haven't seen any posts calling for Brendan's head either (I may have missed them tho') but I do like the call for consistency [Coherence] of thought.

Just like last season; our manager has tried to assimilate a group of "new" players into a team and stamp his "brand" of football. For Sterling, Suso, Borini, Allen and Sahin read; Carroll, Adam, Henderson and Downing.

Just like last season; our manager has stuck with those "new" players irrespective of results. Probably because, like last season, our manager has a belief in what he's doing.

Just like last season; our manager has witnessed his team "dominate" games without the points which maybe should have come with such "dominance". For Skrtle's back-pass (City) and Luis "goal" against the blueshite [4 more points right there] read; woodwork, missed penalties and MoTM, after MoTM displays from visiting goalies.

Just like last season; the mitigating circumstances are there for all to see.

For those reasons I am more than happy to afford Brendan the same understanding and tolerance as I showed Kenny.

However, my understanding (of mitigating circumstances) and tolerance means F**k all: I don't hire and (more importantly) fire managers. What is needed is "understanding and tolerance" from those who do.

Obviously such "understanding and tolerance" (this season), from FSG, whilst it would not be, in any way, "coherent" or consistent (with what happened last season); would be very welcome; as far as I'm concerned.   

To be honest; if the dick-splashes, in our midsts, would stop casting up where Kenny 'went wrong' and how much it cost; I'd happily concentrate on debating the here and now. So, yeah Diego, I'm all for more coherence (and consistency of thought) but we have to be aware it cuts both ways.

Good OP Diego - one of my frustrations about participating in forums is that opinions get polarised. My feelings re Kenny's departure have been well documented on here. That doesn't mean I'm not 100% behind BR. But I am conscious that concerns / complaints about dumbing down of expectations can get distilled down to Kenny vs BR - that's not and never has been my intention.

Its funny when everybody keeps talking about managers, owners et al.
In my own opinion each manager has his brief and he works according to that brief.
We as fans probably dont have all the information to make informed decisions so we just talk outta what we think should be.
If i may ask does anybody actually know the financial position of the club? Are u aware of the stategy for the next 5 years? Do u know the brief given to the manager when he was employed? I bet most of us cant accurately answer these questions?

I'm a realist and i like working with facts maybe thats why I love RAFA so much my heart still aches when i hear negative things said about the man who brought pride, greatness, achievements back to the club. I was disappointed when he was fired for missing out of champions league position once in 5or is it 6 years in charge. Dissapointed when fans criticized his transfer dealings cos of a few bad signings cos i dont consider players lower than 2 million pounds (Ngog et al) they were meant to be hit and miss and most of them were.

Whats my point and why bring Rafa into this discussion?

What were we hoping for when we fired Rafa? Was it champions league footie? Do we have it now? Most would say he destroyed the team before he left, but i'll ask what did he leave? Could they have qualified for champions league, my answer is the quality was still a lot better than now.

We have had 3 coaches after Rafa and the signs were on the wall which direction the club was heading. We are now more of a mid table team, mid table fans with mid table owners, Now we are getting used to lowering expectatuion across board, so why complain? For me we are where we are, and punching above our weights during the Rafa years but due to us having a great coach he spoilt us to believe, which we did.

Going forward, i think BR is a great coach in the making, i like his vibes regarding team selection, i didnt think he started ok in my opinion in terms of transfer dealings and how he managed the players initially but thats expected. But all in all i've been satisfied with the performance of the team bar a few games (Arsenal, WEST bROM and 1st half against Chelsea). He has been aggressive and taken risks with youngsters which was one of the things i have always been preaching, its a model that works and bings greatness, check majority of the great teams in the past. So for me we are heading in the right direction and i'm still optimistic we can still get 4th and dats me being realistic. Before i used to think about winning the title during Rafa years but now i'm comfortable with 4th. So why wouldnt i back the manager???

Now on King Kenny, i believe he needed 1 more full season to actually prove himself, dats my opinion, the team played great but didnt win matches, we hit the bar a record no of times and got to 2 cup finals, thats a record that makes u believe as a fan, and i think the decision to fire him was 1 season too soon.

How long am i willing to give BR? It depends on the resources at BR's disposal and how well he is using them and for me at this stage, signing or no signings in Januarary with the players we have i still believe we can make 4th barring any major injuries of course.

My point is before making comments, criticizing people please put things in perspective and be objective. And note he who pays the piper dictates the tunes.

You know what?... I haven't seen any posts calling for Brendan's head either (I may have missed them tho') but I do like the call for consistency [Coherence] of thought.

Seen a couple saying doubts were starting to creep in the other day and I've seen just one or two who, no matter how subtle they try to be, have never really given him the chance as Rafa was their man. Rafa was my man too but that ended the day Rodgers got appointed. I'll praise Rafa yes, but that doesn't mean I want Rodgers to fail. Some of the anti Rafa brigade don't see that though.

As PD pointed out, any changes at the end of the season are, on paper, wrong in every way but......what would the general consensus be if FSG gave him money to spend in January and we then still had a horrendous second half to the season and finished 15th or somewhere around there?

The general consensus should be the same as last summer - the manager needs to improve greatly in the second season.

There are doubts about BR - that is natural due to his situation. But I agree that talk about 12 points from 11 doesn't look at the bigger picture and we need to judge how BR is doing at the end of the season.

what would the general consensus be if FSG gave him money to spend in January and we then still had a horrendous second half to the season and finished 15th or somewhere around there?

That's where the coherent or "consistent", (if you prefer), approach comes into play and becomes tested Wahs. Personally speaking, I, as I've said would be willing to give Brendan the chance to learn from and rectify any mistakes. I'll stand over that.

Ironically enough tho'; those who openly called for Kenny's head, would also be showing consistency if they were to want rid of Brendan in similar circumstances. We may not agree with their opinion but at least it's consistent.

Where, I suspect, we wouldn't see a coherent (or consistent) attitude is among the small band of posters who pretended they wanted Kenny to stay (yet repeatedly reminded us of the rationale behind FSG sacking him). These folk, I believe, won't (should we finish with less points than last season) be calling for Brendan's head but (lacking a coherent attitude) they will be quiet... rather than promoting the rationale that FSG could sack the boss.

Now whilst I'm all for a coherent (consistent approach) the truth is; I genuinely hope that FSG do not adopt a consistent approach (in the circumstances you describe) as I that would mean they sack Brendan.

However, where I believe FSG should show a coherent attitude is that; just as they ask forgiveness for their mistakes and the chance to rectify them, they can afford the same luxury those around them... something that, so far, has been lacking.

In my opinion: we fans can and should get behind Brendan. He's going through hard times, under difficult circumstances. Let's show those, who don't really get what loyalty is, that we're better than them. Let them "learn" from us; eh?

Quick question as it seems a sticky point for some

Is it possible for people to have NOT wanted Kenny to be sacked and wanted him to be given another year BUT understand the reasoning behind the owners thinking and seeing him depart the club.

It seems from reading through various posts that people can't believe that to be possible - if you understand the reasons why Kenny was sacked then surely you by some unknown logic wanted him sacked ?

It's not black and white there isn't a right or wrong - there is opinions about what actions have been made.

Did many people on here demand Kenny to be sacked ? I have not seen much evidence of that looking through various threads.

Great post Diego

I think Brendan is doing a good job with what he has got.

I hold the owners responsible for the lack of striking options and need to see some positive backing for a new striker(s) in January.

Quick question as it seems a sticky point for some

Is it possible for people to have NOT wanted Kenny to be sacked and wanted him to be given another year BUT understand the reasoning behind the owners thinking and seeing him depart the club.

It seems from reading through various posts that people can't believe that to be possible - if you understand the reasons why Kenny was sacked then surely you by some unknown logic wanted him sacked ?

It's not black and white there isn't a right or wrong - there is opinions about what actions have been made.

Did many people on here demand Kenny to be sacked ? I have not seen much evidence of that looking through various threads.

Well a lot are still angry that Kenny got sacked.
I have a lot of respect for Brendan and what he will bring to the club.
That doesn't mean I agree with Kenny getting sacked. All managers make mistakes.
Some get the chance to rectify their mistakes. Others, along with the players they brought
in, don't get that chance.

Kenny knew what he had to do. He as much as said that in interviews, as did Clarke.
Of course we'll never get that chance to see that. So the biggest sticking point for many, myself
included, is that twice in the last few years, when managers deserved the club to stick by them,
they were scapegoated and ran out of the club.

2011-12 was a bitter sweet season, and so were the discussions on this forum. However, with all the differences of opinions here, it's safe to say the vast majority still wanted King Kenny to stay at the club for another year.

But he didn't. And then people started to get really angry with the owners and the choices they made.

Brendan Rodgers is one of their choices.

He's had a difficult start to his career with only 12 points from 11 games.

Last season, a lot of people seemingly didn't care about 8th being our worst league finish in decades, and they never took seriously the stats that said that at some point we had our worst run of form since the 50's. So isn't it funny to see the same people getting all worked up on how this season's is our worst start to a league campaign since... since... (I don't remember)?

Yes, it is!

After all, how is that even fair to judge a manager after only 12 games? If it supposedly wasn't fair to judge the previous manager on 1 year and a half, then please let's just have a little more coherence with the new one.

What does it matter our number of points in November, really? Absolutely nothing. It's the final position that matters and we're still very far from it. Last season we had an even worst league run over 12 games. And in the end, it just didn't matter one little bit when it happened - in the start, in the middle or in the end of the season. Don't you remember... this?

0-0 Spurs @ Anfield
1-2 Man Utd @ Old Trafford
1-2 Arsenal @ Anfield
0-1 Sunderland @ Stadium of Light
3-0 Everton @ Anfield
2-3 QPR @ Loftus Road
1-2 Wigan @ Anfield
0-2 Newcastle @ St James Park
1-1 Aston Villa @ Anfield
3-2 Blackburn @ Ewood Park
0-1 WBA @ Anfield

What's that? 8 points from 11 games (6 of whom were at home), if my math is right.

That is not to mention the difference in the amount of money each manager had to spend, and the fact that this season, we had the most difficult schedule of the whole league in the first games of the season. All of that with a new manager trying to change things at the club.


Don't get me wrong - I think Kenny deserved more time and I agree there are reasons to be angry with the owners. But if you think 1 year and half isn't time enough to judge a manager that spent quite a lot of money, then don't get all stupid after 12 f**king games with the new one who's seen more players going than coming.

And most of all I hope you don't come back here in the future to lecture people about your understanding of "the Liverpool way".

Great piece lad, you're far too rational to be a football fan !

Well a lot are still angry that Kenny got sacked.
I have a lot of respect for Brendan and what he will bring to the club.
That doesn't mean I agree with Kenny getting sacked. All managers make mistakes.
Some get the chance to rectify their mistakes. Others, along with the players they brought
in, don't get that chance.

Kenny knew what he had to do. He as much as said that in interviews, as did Clarke.
Of course we'll never get that chance to see that. So the biggest sticking point for many, myself
included, is that twice in the last few years, when managers deserved the club to stick by them,
they were scapegoated and ran out of the club.

Fully understand the feeling about the Kenny leaving

Despite what some think I'm certainly not pretending about not wanting him fired and I was as gutted and angry as the next person - he is the guy I grew up to hero worship. I think a lot of the anger comes from who he is - If it was someone having no connection with the club then I think the anger would be a lot less and the majority of people would think a little different - but our club had a foundation if sentiment and that's what makes us special so it is painful when someone the fans connect with leaves.

Sometimes we have to get pass the connection and think with our head at times - the reasons for each person leaving are clear - that doesn't mean you have to agree with them but they are clear.

The question is what do we do now - we have to look forwards - we have to get behind BR ( not suggesting anyone isn't ) but importantly we have place a bit of trust ( not 100% ) in what the owners are trying to achieve  - they didn't sack Kenny for the sheer fun of it , the same with sacking Woy or appointing BR - they are doing what they think is best for the club - that's all I ever ask from people - to do their best , 100% effort within their capacity - if it turns out that its not good enough then I'm sure they will be the first to recognise that and do something about it . I'm sick of the negativity around the club at the moment and I hate seeing splits in fans - it just breeds more bad vibes and that filters into the grounds and players and we get nowhere. We need to get behind each other , get behind the club and we need to show that support each game and we will get the rewards !

We will return

YNWA

Great post Diego

I think Brendan is doing a good job with what he has got.

I hold the owners responsible for the lack of striking options and need to see some positive backing for a new striker(s) in January.

Who else but the owners can shoulder responsibilty for the signings, the choice of manager, the demise of LFC and it's current status.
Only FSG have held the reigns and made the decisions that directly affect the asset.
Some of their directives have been ill informed and faulted by their own admission, while on other occasions nothing has been admitted and scapegoats sought.

Who else but the owners can shoulder responsibilty for the signings, the choice of manager, the demise of LFC and it's current status.
Only FSG have held the reigns and made the decisions that directly affect the asset.
Some of their directives have been ill informed and faulted by their own admission, while on other occasions nothing has been admitted and scapegoats sought.

That is half the problem - the tunnel vision to blame everything that happened over the last two year on FSG.

It's the unwillingness to realise there is blame to be shared on numerous people within the club over the last 2 years and a lot if blame on previous owners.

Yesterday was a perfect example of looking to pin any blame on the owners.

It's time to recognise other people need to take some responsibility for mistakes made over the recent years

Sometimes we have to get pass the connection and think with our head at times - the reasons for each person leaving are clear - that doesn't mean you have to agree with them but they are clear.

Why does there have to be a presumption that those who wanted Kenny to stay were not thinking with their heads?
It's a pretentious attempt to pidgeon hole fans on the Pro Kenny side. To insist that to argue in the defense of Kenny
is to argue on the basis of emotion rather than any substantial logic.

Why does there have to be a presumption that those who wanted Kenny to stay were not thinking with their heads?
It's a pretentious attempt to pidgeon hole fans on the Pro Kenny side. To insist that to argue in the defense of Kenny
is to argue on the basis of emotion rather than any substantial logic.

Just what I have witnessed with a majority but not everyone.

Have witnessed the line " You don't sack a Legend "

It's more a general feeling as opposed to the case for everyone - my post wasn't try to imply that and I apologise if it did as i fully understand there are people who didn't just go with their heart.

Why does there have to be a presumption that those who wanted Kenny to stay were not thinking with their heads?
It's a pretentious attempt to pidgeon hole fans on the Pro Kenny side. To insist that to argue in the defense of Kenny
is to argue on the basis of emotion rather than any substantial logic.

Exactly Racer

No matter how many times you try to explain your standpoint it just comes back that you're bitter because it's kenny.

I can see why some think it's repetitive and why I'm leaving these debates to people who must be able to explain themselves better

Exactly Racer

No matter how many times you try to explain your standpoint it just comes back that you're bitter because it's kenny.

I can see why some think it's repetitive and why I'm leaving these debates to people who must be able to explain themselves better

I've probably been one of the most vocal when it's come to explaining my believe and defense of Kenny.
That's why I'm at a loss to see the head vs heart debate come into it.

I'd like to think in our debates based around the transition from Kenny's to Brendan's team most of what
I would consider debate has been done so based on well backed up arguments.