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      Voting closed: Nov 28, 2013 02:43:20 pm

      Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates

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      s@int
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #667: Nov 25, 2013 10:45:30 am
      I was always confused with that one.Was it the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end.

      It is just Mick's Eton and Oxbridge education showing through mate. It was a quote by Churchill " Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

      Not really the damning downer that this is the beginning of the end might indicate.
      bigmick
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #668: Nov 25, 2013 10:46:18 am
      I thought I had explained why I modified my stance from "we will challenge for the title at some stage" to "I think we are going to seriously challenge for the title" at the time I started the thread. Remember the post where I went through all the potential winners? Never mind, I'll have to go re-read it because I obviously didn't make it as clear as I'd hoped.
      little-Luis:)
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #669: Nov 25, 2013 10:48:17 am
      I haven't had a chance to read the rest of this thread, but here's my 2 cents worth.

      That is probably the best Everton team I have seen us face in the Premier League. Admittedly not the biggest sample size, but they were very balanced and could play too. I thought before the game that a point would have been a decent result, away to a rival, and I'll take it even more after the game, considering we were down with a few minutes to go. Still can't get over how good the game was, it had everything as has & will be mentioned a lot.

      Before the game, we all thought that like before, that Everton would attack predominantly down the left and in particular through Baines. I must say I thought that Baines was quite enough while he was on the pitch and that was mainly down to Henderson's defensive game. He has helped us so much in the defensive side & pressing this season, getting many plaudits. Needs to keep this at a constant level now and add that extra attacking level aswell to really show his top level potential. 

      It wasen't until Baines went off tho that Everton showed their best play. Credit to Martinez, he went for it. He could have brought on a defender for Baines, but bringing on a forward was very ballsy. Delefou's pace certainly stretched us and thus allowed to bring Lukaku into the game more. Lukakuy didn't do much apart from miss a 1 on 1 until the 2nd half where he really took control of the game by scoring the 2 goals. Their pace on the counter really hit us.

      Another factor to add to this was that Allen went off. Now as poor as he was on the ball during the game, very poor in fact from what I can remember (as I don't remmeber him even passing much to be honest, I could be proved wrong tho), but off the ball, Allen actually helped a good bit. He pressed Everton and that extra body in centre midfield certainly helped. In the 2nd half, we started to get overrun in midfield, even more so when Allen went off tho. That miss was atrocious and certainly one of a very unconfident player, any confidence he had certainly is gone now after that miss & being subbed off. Needs a game quick, perhaps against Norwich, just to even make a few passes to get some confidence back.

      Mirallas - knacker! I read today (not sure how true) that he said to Suarez that he remembered the tackle from last year. If it is true, it only adds to my assumption that he meant to do Suarez. Should get a retrospective ban if possible the dick.

      Our subs were poor tbh. We changed the shape completely and it ruined us. We should have kept 3 in midfield. Moses didn't do much and maybe Sterling would have been the better option up against Barry. We could & should have ran at Barry more to expose his pace. Martinez's subs were proactive, while Rodgers were to counteract Martinez. Now I do commend bring on a striker to try win the game, but you have to say balanced at the same time. 

      Flanagan had a good game, surprisingly! It sounds disrespecting but after the glut of performances under Kenny (most notably Blackburn) we couldn't expect much could we. We needed his desire & passion in the derby too.

      Just a small note on Gerrard. Some fantastic deliveries again and it is interesting to see that he had more passes, more passes completed, more forward passes & crucially more assists & chances created that Barkley had. Now Barkley had a fantastic game, mainly due to his running at our defence, but Gerrard quietly had a great game too, and sometimes gets taken for granted what he does.

      All in all, take the point, easier games will come for us. 
      bigmick
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #670: Nov 25, 2013 10:51:54 am
      As for the ongoing debate as to whether or not we have improved. Surely the point is whether or not we have improved relative to everyone else, not whether or not we've improved against corresponding fixtures for us alone last season.

      I couldn't really care less if we only get the same points as last season, as long as it's more than our rivals get. So far, there is only one of our rivals who has gathered more points than us, whereas last season six of our rivals did. Therefore, to me anyway, that is progress.

      The title race is long and things will go up and down. What me must do though is never give in, never, never, never give in.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #671: Nov 25, 2013 10:54:17 am
      Never mind, I'll have to go re-read it because I obviously didn't make it as clear as I'd hoped.
      I wouldn't worry about it mate it was a tongue-in-cheek remark and nothing more. I certainly didn't mean to put words into your mouth, that weren't there, just to try to prove a point or mock you. 'Cause that would have been a cuntish thing to do.  8)
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #672: Nov 25, 2013 11:00:48 am
      As for the ongoing debate as to whether or not we have improved. Surely the point is whether or not we have improved relative to everyone else, not whether or not we've improved against corresponding fixtures for us alone last season.

      I couldn't really care less if we only get the same points as last season, as long as it's more than our rivals get.

      If you feel that, come May, that points mean less than League position re: progress, on our behalf, then fair enough.

      I, personally, wouldn't see a 55 point and 5th place finish (for example) as showing improvement on our part - more regression on the part of others but each to their own. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  8)
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #673: Nov 25, 2013 11:10:36 am
      I, personally, wouldn't see a 55 point and 5th place finish (for example) as showing improvement on our part - more regression on the part of others but each to their own.

      What if we finished 8th but with more points? Would that be an improvement then?
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #674: Nov 25, 2013 11:12:45 am
      What if we finished 8th but with more points? Would that be an improvement then?
      Yes; it would show that we have improved, which is what we are discussing: weren't you 'listening'?

      The fact that others may improve or regress is immaterial as far as our progress is concerned. Improve our points tally and the league position will look after it's self; that [league position] is not in our hands, other than points we rack up.
      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2013 11:42:23 am by bad boy bubby »
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #675: Nov 25, 2013 11:19:35 am
      Yes; it would show that we have improved, which is what we are discussing: weren't you 'listening'?


      Couldn't it also show that the bottom half teams had perhaps weakened, much akin to your 5th with 55pts stance? 
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #676: Nov 25, 2013 11:38:11 am
      Couldn't it also show that the bottom half teams had perhaps weakened, much akin to your 5th with 55pts stance?
      Indeed it could with regards league position which is why I wrote (in the part following the bit you quoted)...
      I, personally, wouldn't see a 55 point and 5th place finish (for example) as showing improvement on our part - more regression on the part of others but each to their own.
      It looks like you may have stopped reading a bit too early 'berry but I get where you're coming from. The fact that others may have regressed, just like league position, is nothing we have any bearing on.

      In 2009/10 we finished 7th on 63 points - 2010/11 we finished 6th on 58 points. Was that [2010/11 league finish] down to us improving as a team or others regressing?

      Take it further - we finished last season 7th on 61 points; if we again finish 7th but on 65 points - I would see that as progression where others obviously wouldn't. The league looks after it's self mate.

      So far we are on course to improve on last season's points tally and I'll take that. If others want to measure improvement by league position; fair enough, like I said earlier: I'm happy to agree to disagree (in the truest definition of the phrase).  8)


      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2013 11:46:17 am by bad boy bubby, Reason: amend post due to slow LFCREDS connection. »
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #677: Nov 25, 2013 12:20:06 pm
      As I was responding to your reply to the 8th with more points comment, that's just moving the topic back to a point you'd already made.  You said 8th with more points would show more progression  than 5th with 55.  I'm not so sure it necessarily would, it may do, but without knowing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the other teams in this hypothetical situation, both POV's could hold true and many stances inbetween. 

      If we take just Liverpool in isolation, as we are all wont to do, I don't think we've performed, match to match as a team, as well as we did during the second half of last season and yet we've garnered almost identical records in the first twelve of this season (24pts) to the last twelve of last season (25pts). 

      If we do take other teams in to account, losing to Southampton, whilst not great, isn't a huge surprise given their level of performance and beating Man United at home, whilst a great result as fans, given United's level of performance isn't such a 'big thing'.  Not saying Southampton wasn't a disappointing result, but given strengths and performances, I find, in retrospect, our two draws earlier in the season were as, if not more, frustrating and the Derby that's always a separate case in point.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #678: Nov 25, 2013 12:23:54 pm
      "The league table never lies"

      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #679: Nov 25, 2013 12:25:51 pm
      As I was responding to your reply to the 8th with more points comment, that's just moving the topic back to a point you'd already made.  You said 8th with more points would show more progression  than 5th with 55.  I'm not so sure it necessarily would, it may do, but without knowing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the other teams in this hypothetical situation, both POV's could hold true and many stances inbetween.
      Indeed which is why I'm still happy to agree to disagree by the way and leave it at that.  8)
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #680: Nov 25, 2013 12:40:58 pm

      It does, all the time.  Terrible fibber.

      Indeed which is why I'm still happy to agree to disagree by the way and leave it at that.  8)


      Which is weird, because in some contexts we would have been agreeing rather that twisting words.

      :)
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #681: Nov 25, 2013 12:43:04 pm
      Couldn't it also show that the bottom half teams had perhaps weakened, much akin to your 5th with 55pts stance?

      Only if you wish to draw conclusions to support your argument. Otherwise no.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #682: Nov 25, 2013 12:57:00 pm
      Indeed it could with regards league position which is why I wrote (in the part following the bit you quoted)...It looks like you may have stopped reading a bit too early 'berry but I get where you're coming from. The fact that others may have regressed, just like league position, is nothing we have any bearing on.

      In 2009/10 we finished 7th on 63 points - 2010/11 we finished 6th on 58 points. Was that [2010/11 league finish] down to us improving as a team or others regressing?

      Take it further - we finished last season 7th on 61 points; if we again finish 7th but on 65 points - I would see that as progression where others obviously wouldn't. The league looks after it's self mate.

      So far we are on course to improve on last season's points tally and I'll take that. If others want to measure improvement by league position; fair enough, like I said earlier: I'm happy to agree to disagree (in the truest definition of the phrase).  8)

      Look, let's be fair. Kenny made a complete mess of things in his season in charge and was sacked as a result. Brendan Rodgers comes in and the team is effectively dismantled in order to be rebuilt from the ground up. One season after that we're 2nd in the League.

      It is simply not possible to judge how Kenny would have done in the same situation had he been given a second season in charge any more than it is to judge how Rodgers would have done had he been appointed a year earlier instead of Kenny. For all we know Rodger may have made a complete mess of it or Kenny might have won us the league last year. Every season is different, every manager is different and we really need to move past these ridiculous comparisons, put the past behind us and judge Rodgers as his own man.
      MIRO
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #683: Nov 25, 2013 01:11:01 pm
      What a game of football.

      Man of the Match   Flanno?  Out of this world .

      Mignolet runs close.



      Next Transfer Out ?   
      Said it before say it again  F***ing Allen.  Heap of sh*te .
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #684: Nov 25, 2013 01:30:01 pm
      Yes; it would show that we have improved, which is what we are discussing: weren't you 'listening'?

      The fact that others may improve or regress is immaterial as far as our progress is concerned. Improve our points tally and the league position will look after it's self; that [league position] is not in our hands, other than points we rack up.


      I understand where you're coming from - your definition of progress being the comparison between absolute number of points each season - but I disagree.

      If we win the title with less points than a prior season in which we achieved more points, it might not mean that we have regressed while others regressed even more, as you suggest, but possibly that many other teams also progressed ('progress' here defined as being better, more capable teams), thus making it harder to score points as a whole in the league. The fact is that both scenarios are possible so, in the end, the analysis is way more subjective than your approach indicates, in my opinion.

      That's why I think the definition of progress you're using insufficient, but each one to their own.
      FL Red
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #685: Nov 25, 2013 02:10:01 pm
      Good read on the red card that should have been and how EPL officials seem be going blind......
      http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/liverpool/id/2011?cc=5901
      heimdall
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #686: Nov 25, 2013 02:18:17 pm
      I thought it was a great game of football, some passionate play, some dodgy defending, typical derby game, was great viewing, especially when we equalised to 3-3. I thought the players played well, can't really fault any of them to much, although how on earth Allen missed that sitter is quite beyond me, I just can't understand it and Gerrard is unfortunately becoming more and more of a liability for us, although he does still contribute a lot as well.

      All in all perfectly happy with the draw and we have a nice run of fixtures now so build up some points before the scary Christmas games of Citeh and the chavs away :-(
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #687: Nov 25, 2013 02:24:39 pm
      Look, let's be fair. Kenny made a complete mess of things in his season in charge and was sacked as a result. Brendan Rodgers comes in and the team is effectively dismantled in order to be rebuilt from the ground up. One season after that we're 2nd in the League.

      It is simply not possible to judge how Kenny would have done in the same situation had he been given a second season in charge any more than it is to judge how Rodgers would have done had he been appointed a year earlier instead of Kenny. For all we know Rodger may have made a complete mess of it or Kenny might have won us the league last year

      Yeah... let's be fair - what, in the name of sweet the F**k are you talking about and why the F**k are you bringing Kenny into this?

      I'm not sure you understand what's been discussed mate but if you do and If you disagree with how I look at measuring progress [Brendan's last season against this] fair enough; like Diego, for example, just say so. You've no need to sh*t stir and start a row which isn't there fella.

      I understand where you're coming from  ...but I disagree.
      And I'll agree to disagree Diego because that's all I'm doing - comparing the number of absolute points between seasons. I'll leave the stuff which can't be measured for others to worry about. Come May I'll see how far out I am.  8)
      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2013 02:32:35 pm by bad boy bubby »
      waltonl4
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #688: Nov 25, 2013 02:28:28 pm
      Look, let's be fair. Kenny made a complete mess of things in his season in charge and was sacked as a result.
      Is that why Brendan regularly plays 8 of Kenny team?.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Everton 3-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match Debates
      Reply #689: Nov 25, 2013 02:31:13 pm
      Is that why Brendan regularly plays 8 of Kenny team?.
      FFS don't bite mate. Don't feed the troll.

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