Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate

For me it wasn't the fact that we lost it was the way we did. Our performance to a man, was as bad as our horrible yellow kit!!! There was no urgency in our play and we did not have a clue what to do. Damn that yellow sh*te !!!!!

For me it wasn't the fact that we lost it was the way we did. Our performance to a man, was as bad as our horrible yellow kit!!! There was no urgency in our play and we did not have a clue what to do. Damn that yellow sh*te !!!!!

I totally agree with you on both counts,that strip needs dumping pronto.

Spot on. We should get Burnley's defensive coach in because that's the way our defence should be playing week in week out.

2 rows of 4 protecting that box like their lives depended on it.

We couldn't get a sniff and resorted to those stupid long shots, where normally at least 1 out of 20 will go in but we didn't look close last night.

Since time began when you faced two rows of four the plan is to keep your wide players on the line and get to the bye line and cut crosses back into the box I cant remember us doing that and one of the reasons is Clyne and Milner cant cross a ball (Milner not on his left foot).

I've calmed down now to some extent, but F**k me, that was so sh*t yesterday.

Basically it was 90 minutes of us passing sideways or doing small triangles without going anywhere. I can't remember getting in behind the burnely defence once.

Mignolet once again had moments where your left asking if he could have done better. I don't think it's an over reaction by stating he is the worst goalkeeper in the league.

Clynes pass for their opening goal was shocking. Klavan put him under pressure with a horrific pass himself but even so, Clyne had more than enough time to send the ball down the line. Sometimes the ball just has to go, sometimes you just have to clear it. We aren't good enough to keep it in tight areas around our box, we're not Barcelona and we never will be. Clyne should have launched it down the line and gave something for our forward to latch onto, putting the pressure on burnley.

The second goal was equally as sh*te with a couple of players, Klavan and Henderson, not being strong enough in their challenges which led to us conceding.

What we saw yesterday was how desperate we are for a left back. Milner is solid and can hold his position better than Moreno does but he can't attack effectively. We have no balance or natural width when Milner plays there which showed yesterday.

A solid DM would be useful too. i thought Henderson was shocking as usual yesterday. I can't wait until our supporters wake up and realise how poor he really is. Wijnaldum wasn't involved either but if you go on the Newcastle forums their supporters say he often went missing in away games when the going got tough so I wasn't surprised.

When we come up against those teams who park the bus then I think coutinho has to play in the middle. He is the only player we have capable of unlocking a defence with a pass. He will also find himself in more dangerous positions to shoot.  Why does he play on the left anyway? To accommodate firmino? Well im sorry but F**k firmino. Coutinho is our best player so we should put him in his best position and build the team around him.

It's also essential that we play two up top, strikers who will move and drag defenders away with them. If that means dropping sturridge to the bench and perhaps bringing him on for the last 30 if we still need a goal then so be it. What is the point in playing Danny in those type of games like yesterday when all he does is drop deep and come to the ball? We need somebody to be a nuisance upfront and to distract their defenders by making runs. We need somebody on the last man ready to run in behind.  Having sturridge dropping deep made it ten times easier for their defence.

We also need players who are going to hog the touch line, we were far too narrow.

These are very basic things that need addressing. Jürgen got it all wrong yesterday (which I know is easy to say so now) but had we looked so toothless in attack under Rodgers with aload of players out of position and his stubbornness to change things until late on then he would have got slaughtered for that.

Yesterday was so bad. Huge improvement needed. 

I have not read any post beyond the 17th page yet but would just like to add that I feel it is time to replace Sturrigde... for the past season or so with Sturrigde on the pitch we are hoping that he can produce the good, as appose to believing that he can produce the goods... I liken it to watching Gerrards last two seasons,  You are watching a once great player that no longer can perform at a top level... Yes there will always be moments when he will score great goals, but them moments will come less and less, hopefully players like Alexander-Arnold will one day pick up the mantel until then we need to seriously find a top striker...

Firmino...Like Lallana you can see that there is talent there in abundance, but just like Lallana he often contributes little to the squad... I would like to see him being use more as a attacking mid-fielder than a forward

Henderson and Lallana are squad players at best, but personally I would sell both and re-invest the money or bring in players on loan

Wijnaldum.... It is hard to see what it is he brings to the table

Klopp... A great manager, but proves that he is only human and will make mistakes... Do i trust him to take us up there into a challenging top four position?...Yes... will he... that is less clear (added) Klopp looked shell shocked yesterday




 

Since time began when you faced two rows of four the plan is to keep your wide players on the line and get to the bye line and cut crosses back into the box...

That's a fair obsevation, in my opinion, Walt - it was the tried and tested but Barcelona put paid to that theory, with their ability to rip teams asunder through the middle. Every f**ker and his brother now believes that this is the only  way it can be done. It's just vulgar to be doing what you described; don't you know?

Trouble is: not too many teams have players of the quality of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Suarez and Neymar (amongst others) and... let's be brutally honest here... we have no one who could lace their boots. We used to tho'; it wasn't too long ago either [Stevie feeding Suarez] and when we did those two, (just F***ing two mind you), top quality players, made an ordinary team good... almost great.

Lack of quality - there's your problem.

Sadly a number of our fan base have been conditioned, in a relatively short period of time, into meekly accepting this weird notion that it is somehow wrong to be buying the best. Yet the same fans will often be on here mewling about insipid performances from average players.

The world's most knowledgeable fans MY HOLE... half of them can't think for themselves and don't know if a ball is blown up or stuffed for F**k's sake.   

My two pence, for what it's worth:

Simon Mignolet - Obviously he wouldn't be playing ahead of Karius if it wasn't for the injury. I think he could of done a bit better for the goals but don't really blame him for either of them. That said I could see Lloris, De Gea, Cech or Courtois saving at least one of them goals and time and time again he is going to cost us points, even if if yesterday wasn't an example of that.

Nathaniel Clyne - Totally shackled down the right yesterday. It's hard to overlap when there are so many defenders. Can't really blame him for not providing more up top but totally at fault for giving the ball away for the first goal.

Ragnar Klavan - got skinned twice for the second goal. I've liked what I've seen of him so far, he's looked solid but you could of said the same for Kolo Toure at the end of last season if you'd never heard of him before. Is he good enough to be starting for a team pushing for top 4? I have my doubts.

Dejan Lovren - Made a brilliant block to stop it being 2-0 earlier on. Pretty solid throughout.

James Milner - Totally wasted at left back. As much as Moreno isn't the answer if Klopp is going to play him then he should be starting games like this instead of Milner. We needed width and crosses yesterday which Milner didn't provide, he cut inside every time he got on the ball yesterday and passed the ball into the middle of the park which was far too congested.

Jordan Henderson - Offered nothing, no creativity. Not good enough to be playing and definitely not good enough to be our captain. Get rid.

Adam Lallana - Lallana is probably our second most technical midfielder after Coutinho but I can never see him providing a killer pass or unleashing a goal from 20 yards. Just another midfielder that's good at everything and a specialist at nothing.

Georginio Wijnaldum - Really struggling to see why we bought him and can't see what he offers that we didn't already have. Give the ball away quite a few times yesterday, welll off the pace at the moment.

Roberto Firmino - Didn't even notice he was playing until he had a shot in the second half. He isn't a central striker.

Daniel Sturridge - I expect to see a lot more from Sturridge and would like to see him run at defenders more like mane did at Arsenal. He's got pace and quick feet but he doesn't seem to ever want to run at players.

Philippe Coutinho - Well off the mark yesterday with his shooting but at least he was having a go. He seemed to play more centrally in the first half yesterday and he saw a lot more of the ball. Shouldn't be relying solely on him to dig us out of holes this season though.

Divock Origi - Looked lively for the little time he had on the pitch.

Alberto Moreno - See James Milner

Marko Grujic - I really like the look of Grujic and think we could have a proper player on our hands if he's played in the right matches early on. Shouldn't be starting games like that and getting slated before we've seen what he can do.

For the rest of it I really don't understand why we were trying to start attacks from the back 4 yesterday either, especially against a team that were playing exclusively counter attacks. All it does is give them time to set up again.
With the absence of Mane, Coutinho was the only person who I felt could do something to get a goal yesterday and that's not a good sign.
Sturridge is really going to have to step up this season or Origi is going to have to prove himself consistently otherwise we're going to be short of goals up top.
And finally Can has to start the next game ahead of Lallana, Henderson or Wijnaldum. They are all too similar and our midfield is getting bullied off the ball.

Onwards and upwards. Klopp knows what he's doing and hopefully he has identified some areas that need to change and potentially bring in at least one more player.

That's a fair obsevation, in my opinion, Walt - it was the tried and tested but Barcelona put paid to that theory, with their ability to rip teams asunder through the middle. Every f**ker and his brother now believes that this is the only  way it can be done. It's just vulgar to be doing what you described; don't you know?

Trouble is: not too many teams have players of the quality of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Suarez and Neymar (amongst others) and... let's be brutally honest here... we have no one who could lace their boots. We used to tho'; it wasn't too long ago either [Stevie feeding Suarez] and when we did those two, (just f**king two mind you), top quality players, made an ordinary team good... almost great.

Lack of quality - there's your problem.

Sadly a number of our fan base have been conditioned, in a relatively short period of time, into buying this weird notion that it is somehow wrong to be buying the best. Yet the same fans will often be on here mewling about insipid performances from average players.

The world's most knowledgeable fans MY HOLE... half of them can't think for themselves and don't know if a ball is blown up or stuffed for f**k's sake.   

If as fans we took off our RED tinted glasses and compared our players to players who actually win stuff we would surely have to accept we lack quality all over the pitch. Jürgen made a comment regarding Couthin's free kick and Luis Suarez, well Luis Suarez has just scored 17 goals in 6 games including a wonderful free kick yesterday. We are an upper mid table squad and to use an old but appropriate saying
"the league table doesn't lie".

is this the last time a Liverpool player crossed the ball with his first touch.https://youtu.be/vOB7pcqBH-Y

We not top 4 club anymore we finish 7 or even 6 that our level now

we were(me included) complaining about our left back and keeper as our ''weakest links''..
Not saying that those positions have to be addressed
BUT the burnley loss showed clearly that our priority is in midfield especially defensively , we just need a good strong defensive midfielder, tipo  Alonso, mascherano , souness etc etc,, and most of all we need a leader in the team, which we clearly lack
YNWA

I have not read any post beyond the 17th page yet but would just like to add that I feel it is time to replace Sturrigde... for the past season or so with Sturrigde on the pitch we are hoping that he can produce the good, as appose to believing that he can produce the goods... I liken it to watching Gerrards last two seasons,  You are watching a once great player that no longer can perform at a top level... Yes there will always be moments when he will score great goals, but them moments will come less and less, hopefully players like Alexander-Arnold will one day pick up the mantel until then we need to seriously find a top striker...

Just to point out on this post, and the poster of this quote isn't the only one questioning Sturridge; but this kind of questioning over him happens EVERY time he comes back into the team after a lay-off.

If he doesn't slot straight back into goal scoring/sharpness mode people ALWAYS write his career off as though he is done and dusted, because he hasn't got a brace in his first 90mins back.

I wouldn't be so quick to write the lad off. The reason people always doubt his effort/pace/goal scoring ability straight after a lay off is because he actually takes a good few games to get back into things - and by then he's usually injured again. But the lad is quality and how anyone can doubt him among his current peers is quite astonishing. He is the closest thing to a natural finisher on the books, his movement and runs are what can get him into position that sets him apart from the likes of Ings, Origi and to a lesser extent Firmino (who's movement is also quite good).

I've seen him questioned also, as a lad you don't want in your team when your backs are up against it too. The absolute lack of belief some have in this fellas ability is amazing. Would I want him in this current crop who's backs are up against it - too F***ing right I would. The lad will get you goals and that's what gets you back on the front foot. Sure, he doesn't run round gengenpressing his arse off, nor role his sleeves up and go into tackles ala Souness but it's like half the fan base have become the 'Stepford Wives of Gengenpress' and drone the lack of 'work' in a players game while ignoring the undoubted qualities of a player.

Fact is, if Klopp doesn't spearhead our attack with Sturridge against stubborn defenses and continues to play him out of position, Danny will come in for this kind of criticism about how his game is diminishing but that's not his fault, that's on the manager's shoulder that.

We not top 4 club anymore we finish 7 or even 6 that our level now

we spend more that the vast majority in the league, we have brought some players who are top draw over the years, we deserve better

Pure pish by the way but this running theme where we have big problems breaking teams, who park the bus, down is exactly that... a "running theme"

It's being happening for a long time and under consecutive managers. A well drilled defence doesn't cost much so it's something all teams can work on and all 'lesser' teams do it against all 'higher' rated teams. The teams, with the ability to break this type of defence down, will win titles.

The fact that we have had little success, in doing that, and under consecutive managers dating way back, indicates (to me, anyhow) it is not something which can be solved easily by a manager alone. Better (or different) personnel maybe but clearly not a manager.

Jürgen clearly believes he has signed and kept the players he needs to do just that and let's remember it's only the second game after the transfer window (with no Mane) so I'm nowhere near to panicking just yet but time will tell if his faith in the players, he picks, is warranted.

Fingers crossed. 

I think it's a bit of a blight on the modern game Bubby. You see it at major championships all the time - it's very easy to set up defensively and hope to get lucky.

Beyond the professional game I  see it even in the under 14s I coach (and for years before this).

In our last year at 7s we went unbeaten for 6 months but one of our toughest games was against a side that set up 1 (goalie); 3; 3.......Now we had pace to burn through the team and a centre forward who was strong and a great finisher. He only needed a glimpse but yet we struggled against them because they were very well drilled and bluntly played for set pieces.

You're spot on - Jürgen has signed the men he believes he can work with and are equipped to win even tight games.......

But - we shouldn't kid ourselves (and I know you're not suggesting we are) either that he's suddenly going to sprinkle fairy dust and we'll start smashing defensively minded teams.

He won't and we won't - what we need to do is to be patient, incisive and most of all clinical. There might only be one half chance in games - we need to be better both at engineering them and taking them.

Our success will come from being able to make these teams work relentlessly and concentrate for 95, 96 minutes - making our pressure count.

It won't work every week - but it a) needs to more than it does now and b) we need to stop losing our concentration and shape and losing stupid goals.

Self inflicted wounds........

people seem to want to find a player or a couple of players to blame.

we all know what players are (take Liverpool biased glasses off) not good enough - primarily 90% of the defenders, keepers (Karius unknown), central midfield is weak with no character and our attackers (bar Sturry who is an injury issue on his own) typically can't shoot

the committee an Klopp and the previous managers/management have all been unable to purchase players needed in problematic areas and instead purchased in strange areas - ie. Gini

and we continue to play players out of position - ie Milner

and we have no leaders

and our players have no issues coming out in the papers and media shouting how much we need to do this and that week after week to only mess up come 3pm on the Saturday.

I know we will have many days when we win, however these Burley days come about far to often and are easily corrected if we go about things as well as we can and show some fu$king balls

Was a little surprised Danny Ings didn't get a start in this game with ex players coming back to haunt you and all that.
We needed someone quick and direct !!!ticked those boxes.ah well

Had mentioned that in the pre match thread and the fact he would have trained with some of the defence.
He knew their play.

However Jürgen and I for once weren't thinking on the same wavelength.

 

If as fans we took off our RED tinted glasses

Seems like I been saying this forever

compared our players to players who actually win stuff we would surely have to accept we lack quality all over the pitch.

Part of that reason is Liverpool supporters are too tribal in our thinking, there are players like Mata,(Out of favor at man Utd), Hernandez (sold to Bayer Leverkusen) Marcos Rojo, (Another out of favor at man Utd),all capable players that will improves us (LFC) and we will not try to buy these players or even put in a bid for them... Why?? because of some slight that goes back decades ago... So when a player like Hernandez was available  a solid replacement for Suarez we did not even show any interest, if we did we may well have bought the player from Man Utd, or at least let the player know that he was on our radar, and that may well have been enough to insure that if we still wanted him today he may have signed for us... Maybe SAF held sway as the Manager of Man Utd, and did not make many friends as manager in the boardroom, but he has retired from management and I believe that it is quite possible that he holds less influences today especially after he so publicly backed "The Chosen One", How those people on The Board who hated him must have love seeing him fall... I believe that those same people would be willing to sell those players on, Jose would have no problem with that as he was the Chelsea manager who sold Mata to Man Utd in the first place... All this "tribalism" is a large part of what is holding us back...

That and the lack of urgency in our transfer dealings noticing a potential target to making a bid for him

Jürgen made a comment regarding Couthin's free kick and Luis Suarez, well Luis Suarez has just scored 17 goals in 6 games including a wonderful free kick yesterday. We are an upper mid table squad and to use an old but appropriate saying
"the league table doesn't lie".

Yes and the longer we remain a mid table side the hard it will be to attracted Top talent, and the harder it will be to hold on to the talent we have...teams like Stoke, Southampton and West Ham can now compete with us for players we are now targeting... It is only a matter of time at this rate that either Barca' or real come calling for Coutinho and he will be gone

Still lets see how it goes if the Chinese get a stake in LFC or Take over the Club

Liverpool hit jackpot after £800m China bid
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/liverpool-hit-jackpot-after-800m-china-bid-c3qh3zgg0

Hopefully Klopp can sort that out, cause yesterdays performance will be repeated by every sh*t team against us. Its been going on FAR too long now.

We were blunt, rubbish and spineless.

Perhaps a better approach against sh*t teams would be to try pick them off as they do us. If they score early, we are so easily countered against its not funny. That 2nd was piss poor....we had ample opportunity to readjust.

Not a chance anyone of them is getting MOTM.

Just to point out on this post, and the poster of this quote isn't the only one questioning Sturridge; but this kind of questioning over him happens EVERY time he comes back into the team after a lay-off.

If he doesn't slot straight back into goal scoring/sharpness mode people ALWAYS write his career off as though he is done and dusted, because he hasn't got a brace in his first 90mins back.

I wouldn't be so quick to write the lad off. The reason people always doubt his effort/pace/goal scoring ability straight after a lay off is because he actually takes a good few games to get back into things - and by then he's usually injured again. But the lad is quality and how anyone can doubt him among his current peers is quite astonishing. He is the closest thing to a natural finisher on the books, his movement and runs are what can get him into position that sets him apart from the likes of Ings, Origi and to a lesser extent Firmino (who's movement is also quite good).

In all fairness I have always allowed for his lack of fitness or sharpness dew to injury, and again in all fairness it does not help his cause that he tries so hard to score when passing would give someone else a better chance to do so... Now having made those allowances... It is his lack of pace, his in ability to sprint for a ball, or run away from defenders, his lack or real drive or desire( by this I mean his willingness to chase the ball that is over hit like yesterday)  His lack of belief in his abilities, doing things he would have done some two seasons ago... even the things that he still does well he looks labored in doing... Yes injuries may have taken thier toll on Sturrigde but as you eluded to when you said "his movement and runs are what can get him into position that sets him apart from the likes of Ings, Origi and to a lesser extent Firmino (who's movement is also quite good)." we are seeing this less and less from him, just as we did watching Steven Gerrard in his last two seasons at LFC...
We may disagree with the reasons but surely you (and others here) can see that this is not the same player from two seasons ago, and we should not wait as we did with Gerrard two find a replacement...Yes Sturrigde still has plenty to offer LFC only in a more determinismed roll

Did not see the game, but after yesterday's poor result at Burnley, seemingly back to square one.

The back 5 needs addressing as priority we all know LB is a must but the partnership at CB is worrying Klavan showed yesterday why he was 4m because he is back up at best. Matip surely no 1 but with who ? Many on here still doubt Lovren me included and I think  Sahko is the other but not even seen that partnership. Even with playing poorly clean sheets at least allow us to get a point . Both goals yesterday completely avoidable but between Clyne and the two CB such basic tackling and in Klavan case positioning errors made.

Hendo and Lallana ahead of Grujic? ******** Joke. What is Mignolet even still doing here? He is not fit to be #2. Why won't Klopp understand he should not be at Liverpool end of story.

I know we're all miserable after the defeat yesterday and more so at the performance. I reviewed the game below, it would be great if you checked out the video and let me know what you think.

https://youtu.be/Qw7a_70Eq9k