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      Alisson Becker (AS Roma)

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      GegenPressClub
      • Forum Vladimir Smicer
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #391: Jun 14, 2018 12:46:45 pm
      For a sec, I was like, why is the Australian Dean Jones commenting on football transfers?  :D

      https://twitter.com/DeanJonesBR/status/1007206943121903616

      If Alisson goes to Madrid then De Gea stays at Man Utd (meaning they won't need a top replacement keeper), and Courtois isn't able to go there either. Objectively, if I was Courtois, would I stay at a club that is no longer going to be spending massive and there's a good chance they won't qualify for CL again next year? I'd have strong doubts. And even if he'd consider accepting that risk, would Chelsea risk losing him on a free next year if they do fail to challenge for the title or even make CL. We're talking a further 60-100 mil down the drain. I know, Courtois has said he won't play for another PL club, but if Real Madrid don't get him, Atletico have Oblak, and Bayern have Neuer, it really only leaves PSG next year (as they'd unlikely be able this year with FFP.

      Chelsea definitely won't sell him to city rivals Tottenham or Arsenal (and the latter definitely wouldn't meet the transfer fee this year it would seem), then surely Liverpool is the only landing spot? Sure, it's further from his fam in Madrid than London, but surely he knows that a Klopp side will be seriously challenging for important titles now? I think it'll be interesting how this plays out, hence why I'm not disheartened that we haven't overpaid yet for a keeper who isn't top 5 or so.
      GegenPressClub
      • Forum Vladimir Smicer
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #392: Jun 14, 2018 01:09:14 pm
      Oh and I didn't realise Arsenal are going in for Bernd Leno from Leverkusen for about 20 mil. To be honest, I'd rather pay that much for him too than 60+ mil for Alisson. It would take some world cup to convince me he is in that fee bracket.
      http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/11403833/arsenal-in-advanced-talks-to-sign-bernd-leno-from-bayer-leverkusen
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #393: Jun 14, 2018 03:20:16 pm
      Seems set for Madrid...hopefully we don’t end up with Navas!

      With a bit of luck, Madrid spending this much on Alisson will open the market up for the keepers and might be what makes us then spend big for Oblak. But I doubt it.
      FL Red
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #394: Jun 14, 2018 03:28:07 pm
      Seems set for Madrid...hopefully we don’t end up with Navas!

      With a bit of luck, Madrid spending this much on Alisson will open the market up for the keepers and might be what makes us then spend big for Oblak. But I doubt it.

      Yea, I think we are moving forward with Karius.

      I mean when you think about it, how many game changing keepers are there really and what's the probability of them being let go by their current team.

      Which means we'd be in that second tier down of guys that could develop into world class. I thought that was supposed to be the deal with Karius. So do we snag a guy from that tier and then what....competes with Karius....keeper rotation. I just don't see how it would be beneficial to be honest. I have a feeling Klopp's going to stick with Karius and see what happens.
      heimdall
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #395: Jun 14, 2018 03:36:04 pm
      Yea, I think we are moving forward with Karius.

      I mean when you think about it, how many game changing keepers are there really and what's the probability of them being let go by their current team.

      Which means we'd be in that second tier down of guys that could develop into world class. I thought that was supposed to be the deal with Karius. So do we snag a guy from that tier and then what....competes with Karius....keeper rotation. I just don't see how it would be beneficial to be honest. I have a feeling Klopp's going to stick with Karius and see what happens.

      You want us to carry on with Karius don't you?

      Why do you want us to carry on with a goalkeeper who produced the worst goalkeeping performance in any final ever and is at his best average.
      Also why do you think we can't attract top players?
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #396: Jun 14, 2018 04:03:39 pm
      You want us to carry on with Karius don't you?

      Why do you want us to carry on with a goalkeeper who produced the worst goalkeeping performance in any final ever and is at his best average.
      Also why do you think we can't attract top players?

      It probably was, yes, just 2 catastrophic errors, but 1. it's one game, and 2. he may have been playing under a concussion. My main concern after the Madrid game regarding his future at the club was whether he could recover mentally from that game, but i think the medical diagnosis of his concussion will go a long ways towards helping him put that behind him. One thing is for sure, if he comes back next season and performs well, no one can question his mental ability, because he has been put through hell by media, ex-players and clueless fans (death threats) since the CL final ended.

      You saying Karius is average at his best is way off mark. We have a big enough sample size from the 2nd half of last season, 19 league games over a few months, where the team had the best defense in the league with him in goal (and Arnold-Lovren-Van Dijk-Robertson as the back 4) to see he played well above average. His 10 clean sheets in those 19 games further tell you that.

      As for replacing him, i agree with FL Red regarding game-changing keepers. How many are there and how many are available? furthermore, would it make sense to spend a large portion of the transfer money on a goalie when we have other needs in midfield and forward?

      We saw over the last 19gms of the season that we are very good defensively with the back 5 (defense + Karius) currently on the team, and collectively we will be better defensively next season with the addition of Keita and Fabinho, who is a fantastic DM and will go a long way at breaking up attacks. Seeing that, what's the point of spending 25-50M on another goalie who's not really any better?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #397: Jun 14, 2018 04:24:54 pm
      You want us to carry on with Karius don't you?

      Why do you want us to carry on with a goalkeeper who produced the worst goalkeeping performance in any final ever and is at his best average.

      We get it you hate the lad, you don't want him in goal and probably want him sold too! But can you stop droning on about it and attacking every poster who has an opinion & actually wants to support the lad!!

      You're gonna be gutted when Klopp starts him as number one at home to West Ham aren't you?



      CT_LFC
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #398: Jun 14, 2018 05:14:01 pm
      Speaking of goalies, did anyone see the goal Lloris gave up to the US during the friendly last week (or whenever it was)? To get beat short side like that is freaking awful. He takes "overrated" to a whole new level.
      MIRO
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #399: Jun 14, 2018 05:48:55 pm

      Reservations about living in Liverpool ?
      Didn't Mr Sanchez not want to move up' t ' North West after Luis left ..... but then did a few years later when the Scum's  £2,000,000 per month mazoolah called.

      GegenPressClub
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #400: Jun 14, 2018 05:59:22 pm
      I actually agree that Karius should not be the first choice keeper if we cannot sign one of the top 5 or so. I watched all of our games last year (as no doubt did most of you), and I never felt confident with either Karius or Mignolet. I always felt that if a ball was whipped into the box at or above head height, both were a good chance of fumbling it or leaving it, and that lack of conviction could be seen in the rest of our defence when they'd make those oddly sketchy decisions. I never watched a Man U game thinking the very average Smalling and co would just randomly let a goal in the way I always felt we were vulnerable. Nor Chelsea, well, that is until their team as a whole decided to give up along with their manager towards the end of the season. Sure, Karius had a better run than we'd expected, but our defence improved because of Van Dijk minimising some of those jitters in players like Karius, Lovren, and Matip. I don't feel like we must sell him yet, but it would be criminal to rely on Karius again next year.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #401: Jun 14, 2018 06:00:04 pm
      Speaking of goalies, did anyone see the goal Lloris gave up to the US during the friendly last week (or whenever it was)? To get beat short side like that is freaking awful. He takes "overrated" to a whole new level.

      Marcel marceau of the goalkeeping fraternity
      hardcoresoldier
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #402: Jun 15, 2018 06:35:04 am
      You have my response mate

      I don't care.. I'm getting too old to worry about transfers..  I leave that for my lad now.

      If Karius is still number one sound..

      If not.. sound

      👍

       I guess you're pleading the fifth amendment on this one then Kopite :D :D :D
      hardcoresoldier
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #403: Jun 15, 2018 06:42:44 am
      It probably was, yes, just 2 catastrophic errors, but 1. it's one game, and 2. he may have been playing under a concussion. My main concern after the Madrid game regarding his future at the club was whether he could recover mentally from that game, but i think the medical diagnosis of his concussion will go a long ways towards helping him put that behind him. One thing is for sure, if he comes back next season and performs well, no one can question his mental ability, because he has been put through hell by media, ex-players and clueless fans (death threats) since the CL final ended.

      You saying Karius is average at his best is way off mark. We have a big enough sample size from the 2nd half of last season, 19 league games over a few months, where the team had the best defense in the league with him in goal (and Arnold-Lovren-Van Dijk-Robertson as the back 4) to see he played well above average. His 10 clean sheets in those 19 games further tell you that.

      As for replacing him, i agree with FL Red regarding game-changing keepers. How many are there and how many are available? furthermore, would it make sense to spend a large portion of the transfer money on a goalie when we have other needs in midfield and forward?

      We saw over the last 19gms of the season that we are very good defensively with the back 5 (defense + Karius) currently on the team, and collectively we will be better defensively next season with the addition of Keita and Fabinho, who is a fantastic DM and will go a long way at breaking up attacks. Seeing that, what's the point of spending 25-50M on another goalie who's not really any better?

      Way too much emphasis being placed on the clean sheet rationale in my opinion. The reason for the upturn in form over the second half of the Season was the outstanding contributions from van Dijk, Robertson and Arnold. Nothing more, nothing less.

      Karius is not yet of the required quality to represent a team with title aspirations. He has the potential to be, he just hasn't yet. We are comparing him to Mignolet for fucks sake, that's like comparing dog sh*t to horse sh*t.

      That is not a slight on Karius by the way, it's just not the right way to look at this issue. It's not about is he better than what we've got or had, it's just about is he actually good enough yet.

      In my opinion he is not.
      KeepTheFaith
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #404: Jun 15, 2018 09:58:05 am
      People need to ask themselves do they want us to be competing to win the big trophies ? If the answer is yes then karius cannot be our number 1

      People can make all the excuses for him they want and I don’t wish Anything bad on him but he is a paid progressional who is not good enough and there always seems to be an excuse for him

      Every top team has had a top keeper, remember that

      We must get a keeper, we cannot make the same mistakes as last season with no plan b

      Please klopp, I geniuinly believe with a solid keeper we can compete for the league
      heimdall
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #405: Jun 15, 2018 10:09:45 am
      We get it you hate the lad, you don't want him in goal and probably want him sold too! But can you stop droning on about it and attacking every poster who has an opinion & actually wants to support the lad!!

      You're gonna be gutted when Klopp starts him as number one at home to West Ham aren't you?





      Oh my God yes, if Karius starts in goal against West Ham I will be so very extremely pissed off and the droning will just get louder and louder, I can assure you of that!!

      I'm baffled why so many want to persevere with an average keeper though. BTW I don't buy this concussion excuse at all, if we was suffering so bad he would have notified the bench or it would have been obvious in other ways. It was 2 mistakes in 1 game, another mistake against Citeh and lots of other small mistakes which he by and large got away with. The lad has a serious issue with his intelligence and/or concentration and we cannot risk having him as our #1 goalkeeper. All this crap about the last 19 games is much much more down to Virgil, Robbo and Trent than it was Karius although he was better than Migs, but then the only person worse than Migs was Bogdan!
      Kopite78
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #406: Jun 15, 2018 10:21:02 am
      Oh my God yes, if Karius starts in goal against West Ham I will be so very extremely pissed off and the droning will just get louder and louder, I can assure you of that!!


      Don't worry no one listens anyway.

      People remember your weird posts and claims such as he took money for his final performance etc etc..

      You have no credibility anyway so drone away 👍
      heimdall
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #407: Jun 15, 2018 11:57:16 am
      Don't worry no one listens anyway.

      People remember your weird posts and claims such as he took money for his final performance etc etc..

      You have no credibility anyway so drone away 👍

      Oh you meanie, that hurt my feelings. Imagionr if I ever cared what your opinion of me was, oh that's a scary thought!
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #408: Jun 15, 2018 01:43:46 pm
      Oh my God yes, if Karius starts in goal against West Ham I will be so very extremely pissed off and the droning will just get louder and louder, I can assure you of that!!

      I'm baffled why so many want to persevere with an average keeper though. BTW I don't buy this concussion excuse at all, if we was suffering so bad he would have notified the bench or it would have been obvious in other ways. It was 2 mistakes in 1 game, another mistake against Citeh and lots of other small mistakes which he by and large got away with. The lad has a serious issue with his intelligence and/or concentration and we cannot risk having him as our #1 goalkeeper. All this crap about the last 19 games is much much more down to Virgil, Robbo and Trent than it was Karius although he was better than Migs, but then the only person worse than Migs was Bogdan!

      Agreed about the concussion thing, I think that was the club covering their arse either way. Bogdan's a gonna and I see us getting rid of Mignolet. I'm thinking realistic and that is I can't see us binning off Karius as well. Klopp has told the club not to get ripped off by Roma for Alisson, so I think we can rule a bid out for Oblak as well!!

      Looking at the way Klopp has dealt with Lovren after the Spurs game, the lad was getting slaughtered on forums, social media etc, yet Jürgen stuck with him, again imo Klopp will stick with Karius, so it's either we'll go with Karius and Ward or he'll bring in a back-up keeper if he wants to have the full complement of 3 keepers.

      Our manager just doesn't strike me as someone who throws players under the bus for a mistake they make during a match, he'll probably bollock them in private, hopefully work on deficiencies in training, but unless a player acts a tw*t or breaks rules ala Sakho, I just don't see us replacing Karius.

      That's why I think Karius will start in goal for us start of the season!

      CT_LFC
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #409: Jun 15, 2018 02:26:41 pm
      People need to ask themselves do they want us to be competing to win the big trophies ? If the answer is yes then karius cannot be our number 1

      People can make all the excuses for him they want and I don’t wish Anything bad on him but he is a paid progressional who is not good enough and there always seems to be an excuse for him

      Every top team has had a top keeper, remember that

      We must get a keeper, we cannot make the same mistakes as last season with no plan b

      Please klopp, I geniuinly believe with a solid keeper we can compete for the league

      Why not? City won the Premier League from Ederson, who as we all saw in the 4 games we played them last season, is not very good other than with his feet. Real has won 3 straight CL finals with Navas, who is also not in the top echelon of goalies. Leicester won the Premier League with Schmeichel, who no one would put as one of the best goalies out there unless they were talking about his father. We won the CL with Dudek, and reached 2 other finals under Klopp with Mignolet and neither loss was due to our goalie.

      Klopp, as he has told us before when everyone was criticizing the back 4 (pre-VVD days), sees defense as a team effort, not just individual positions and i guess that is why he was fine using Weidenfeller all those years at Dortmund and why i think he'll stick with Karius, and rightfully so after the way the team performed defensively over the 2nd half of the season.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #410: Jun 15, 2018 02:28:14 pm
      Don't worry no one listens anyway.

      People remember your weird posts and claims such as he took money for his final performance etc etc..

      You have no credibility anyway so drone away 👍

      wait, he really said that?  :lmao:
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #411: Jun 15, 2018 02:42:08 pm
      Way too much emphasis being placed on the clean sheet rationale in my opinion. The reason for the upturn in form over the second half of the Season was the outstanding contributions from van Dijk, Robertson and Arnold. Nothing more, nothing less.

      Karius is not yet of the required quality to represent a team with title aspirations. He has the potential to be, he just hasn't yet. We are comparing him to Mignolet for fucks sake, that's like comparing dog sh*t to horse sh*t.

      That is not a slight on Karius by the way, it's just not the right way to look at this issue. It's not about is he better than what we've got or had, it's just about is he actually good enough yet.

      In my opinion he is not.

      This cracks me up. The past couple years under Klopp when we had an inconsistent defense everyone was frustrated that we were not able to keep a clean sheet, but when we do and are the best at it over half a season, suddenly they are overrated. Can't make this sh*t up. By the way, he also had the fewest goals allowed per 90 minutes since he took over  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:

      As for your reason for the upturn, that is just brutal. Point out flaws and areas for improvement, sure, but to completely disregard someone's contribution to the team and say it was all due to someone else is as shitty as it gets. Even posters like Heimdall, who has a Karius pin doll, has admitted, even vaguely, that he did well once he took over as the #1. And why would you care who the goalie is when it's all really due to Van Dijk, Robertson and Arnold, anyways? :roll:
      GegenPressClub
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #412: Jun 15, 2018 03:44:10 pm
      This cracks me up. The past couple years under Klopp when we had an inconsistent defense everyone was frustrated that we were not able to keep a clean sheet, but when we do and are the best at it over half a season, suddenly they are overrated. Can't make this sh*t up. By the way, he also had the fewest goals allowed per 90 minutes since he took over  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:

      As for your reason for the upturn, that is just brutal. Point out flaws and areas for improvement, sure, but to completely disregard someone's contribution to the team and say it was all due to someone else is as shitty as it gets. Even posters like Heimdall, who has a Karius pin doll, has admitted, even vaguely, that he did well once he took over as the #1. And why would you care who the goalie is when it's all really due to Van Dijk, Robertson and Arnold, anyways? :roll:

      Let's please not forget that context is key, particularly when evaluating player performance based on stats. For example, Karius and Mignolet played half of our PL fixtures each. However, Mignolet had to face 35% more shots on target (SoT) than Karius had to. That is not a small difference, and is a very good indicator of how much better our team defended in the latter part of the season before Karius has to step up to make a play as a goalie.

      Another stat (that should be taken with a bigger pinch of salt, but still should be considered), is that Karius took 50% less high claims than Mignolet. One of the biggest worries for me with Karius is that he isn't a commanding goalkeeper who owns the box. Regardless of stats, our eyes were never convinced of this, from either him or Mignolet.

      In the end, both keepers are capable of saves, and yeah Karius probably more so than Mignolet. But goalkeeping is so much more than that. It's about commanding an area and instilling confidence in the whole defensive unit with communication and actions. We certainly don't have a keeper who does that, or whom I personally think would grow into that.

      The other thing is, when our keepers make their mistakes, it is often in big matches where we probably won't get another 10 shots on target against our opponent in order to have a good chance of equalising or regaining a lead. Against lesser teams we often can create the opportunities to get back into a game if a howler is made with enough time left in the match.

      It's all about temperament. You see it in other sports as well. Just look at the NBA playoffs. James Harden had an MVP regular season with the Rockets, but when it counted most in the playoffs, he and his team went something like 1 from 29 from the 3-pt line (which was their bread and butter). Paul George from OKC just can't step up when the real pressure is on.

      And then back to Real Madrid. Played pretty awful for most of the year, but had the temperament to focus and win when it counts most.

      Anyway, if you can watch a game with both Karius and Lovren and not always feel like we're vulnerable when a ball is crossed in, then I'm envious, because it will rack my nerves for as long as they play for us hahaha.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Alisson Becker (AS Roma)
      Reply #413: Jun 15, 2018 05:02:26 pm
      Let's please not forget that context is key, particularly when evaluating player performance based on stats. For example, Karius and Mignolet played half of our PL fixtures each. However, Mignolet had to face 35% more shots on target (SoT) than Karius had to. That is not a small difference, and is a very good indicator of how much better our team defended in the latter part of the season before Karius has to step up to make a play as a goalie.

      Another stat (that should be taken with a bigger pinch of salt, but still should be considered), is that Karius took 50% less high claims than Mignolet. One of the biggest worries for me with Karius is that he isn't a commanding goalkeeper who owns the box. Regardless of stats, our eyes were never convinced of this, from either him or Mignolet.

      In the end, both keepers are capable of saves, and yeah Karius probably more so than Mignolet. But goalkeeping is so much more than that. It's about commanding an area and instilling confidence in the whole defensive unit with communication and actions. We certainly don't have a keeper who does that, or whom I personally think would grow into that.

      Mignolet had to face more shots, yes, but i don't think the defense was as bad as it'd appear based on things like goals allowed because they were heavily skewed by the 2 games against City and Spurs that were heavily impacted by a red card and individual errors from Lovren. Overall the defense was good, just inconsistent prior to Van Dijk, Karius and Robertson taking over as starters.

      While the impact of Van Dijk and Robertson is easy for everyone to see, Karius was part of the reason for that improvement and consequent fewer shots he had to face. One of the reasons Karius was brought in is because of his ability to play like an additional field player, something that just simply isn't in Migs tool box.

      After a bit of a settling-in period when Van Dijk first arrived, our defense played very well and comfortable and we were able to play a high defensive line. There was a big change in how we handled long balls. With Karius aboard, the defensemen knew they could have the higher line and let the long ball go over their head and instead move to an open position to receive a pass because Karius was already 20ft outside his box ready to play the ball. With Migs, the same long ball would result in a footrace towards goal trying to fight off both the rushing attacker as well as defending the trailing player looking for the pass. Also, we saw a very high amount of plays where one of our defensemen would have the ball near the halfway line and when put under pressure they were very comfortable kicking it back to Loris, who was well outside his box, who'd receive the ball and re-distribute to the open player. There is just a lot of familiarity and trust between our "back 5" and they play as a unit. These were 2 key differences / changes in our play between Migs and Karius that improved our play and lowered the amount of scoring chances / shots against us. One (not saying you specifically) cannot be so blinded by the anti-Karius bias to deny this.

      As for commanding the box, that is actually something that Karius is pretty good at. One of the problems with Migs coming out is that he'd flap at the ball while Karius actually punches or catches it. In the CL game against Sevilla he came out and almost knocked out cold a Sevilla player (though the play was called offsides) and did the same against Porto (i believe). He also HOLDS ONTO the ball, which is refreshing to see. As a good example, there's that play against Newcastle where he caught a cross (maybe it was a free kick?) and ended up with the Newcastle player's head in his arms between the ball and his face. Not just is Karius better all-around that Simon, but his style fits ours perfectly.

      As for Migs in general and his stats, i don't think he's great, but i don't think he's as bad as many fans think he is. It's almost like it's ingrained in Liverpool fandom to hate the guy, but the closest this team has come in ages to winning the PL was with him between the pipes as well as reaching the EC finals with him and in neither occasion you can say it was because of him that it did not happen. He'll probably move on to a mid-table team, or a top-ish team in a less strong league, and do well.

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