Fullbacks aren't solely responsible for attack, Torres being injured played it's part, Dirk wasn't as good as in previous seasons, Benayoun was underused, Gerrard had a shocker. Team game and the onus lies on the team, not the individual. Everyone bar 4 or 5 people could've done more last season. For a team who lacks ability to defend and was constantly shown up explain why we had one of the fewest goals conceded both home, away and in total. Our attack was impotent away from home and it cost us, for a guy that loves his "football is a simple game" quote, you sure don't like simple answers to a very simple hypothesis.
Last season at home, we conceded more than Chelsea, United, Spurs, Birmingham only and as many as Arsenal and ironically Fulham. Only the top three scored more than us at home. So our home form, as you've pointed out, wasn't that bad. Our away form, however, was a shambles going forward. Out of the top ten of last season, only Blackburn scored fewer than us on our travels, though only United and Chelsea conceded fewer. Maybe the defence, looking at the facts, wasn't as bad as it looked when watching.
Going forward though, clearly shows that away from home - when we usually set up to play for a point - our entire midfield didn't do enough, nor did our front men. By the way I don't blame full backs for not scoring/creating. A full backs job is to be sound defensively.
No, you're misquoting me. I claimed last season we had a good defense made very good by Reina (ie. top 4 standards) and an average (ie. 7th-10th) attack force, as a result we finished in the lowest of the Europa League places (7th). That's not what I'm trying to say though. Games or seasons aren't won on attack or defense but the relativity towards each other, or as we know it goal difference. You don't win games by scoring 5 or by keeping clean sheets, you win by scoring 1 more than your opposition. Therefore, it is perfectly plausible to score a medium amount of goals but concede an extraordinarily low amount and win the league. Conversely it's just as possible to score an unheard of amount of goals and leak them like crazy (ie. think winning every match 5-3, 4-2, 6-3, 5-2 etc). Sure you'd end up with a 100+ goal season but you'd also be letting in a good 50, goal difference is the key here. Our defense was like I said, good enough (more than usual room for improvement of course) but our attack was pretty average (key area of improvment required).
Goal diference doesn't win anything. Scoring 1 more than the opposition wins you games, now we don't have many players who'll chip in with enough goals to win us enough games - hence my constant moaning about the central midfield pairing. Now I know I'm not allowed to say this because I didn't see it first hand, but Souness and Terry Mc would both chip in with plenty of goals as would Ray Kennedy, Steve Heighway, Ian Callaghan, Jimmy Case taking the strain off Keegan and Toshack. Molby, McMahon, Whelan, Johnstone, Lee, Houghton, Wark would all chip in with goals to take the strain off Rush, Dalglish and later on Aldridge.
Now, if the goals don't come from Torres or Gerrard, we're usually fu**ed. I know Kuyt will chip in with around 10-15 season. I remember a few years ago we ended up with about 5 or 6 players hitting double figures. But now, the goal threat is so reliant on Torres it's unreal. Sides just marked him and Gerrard out of the game, knowing there wouldn't be much other threat to their goal.
Again, thankfully you don't dictate how our midfielders should play or be utilised. I offer an explanation to anyone who wants to listen about why things are the way they are. For a guy that doesn't understand very simple terms like defensive midfielder or wingback, what makes you think you're qualified to be dictating how our current players should be doing things?
I understand the terms you mention. In fact I remember quite vividly Liverpool playing with wingbacks under Roy Evans. So what makes me qualified? Easy, every fan is a manager. Every fan can see where it's going wrong and how they'd win everything. That's why so many love football manager because it gives them their chance to do just that. (For what it's worth, Lucas has scored 8 goals in my first 20 games on my current Footy Manager side
)
You're selling Mascherano awfully short here, as a pure destroyer the guy is up there with the likes of Gattuso, Cambiasso, Toulalan, Diarra, Senna, Essien et al. To ride someone off because they're only "world class" instead of "perfect at it" is stupid. Makelele wasn't ever deployed as a central midfielder, yet you think he was amazing despite not doing "what central midfielders should do" and "chip in with goals".
Out of that list, the only two I've seen enough of is Essien and Makelele. And I'd take Essien day in day out over the other two. I've said Essien is one midfielder I'd break the bank to buy.
And no I don't think Makelele was amazing, I think he was decent because he perfected the art of protecting the back four but I'd have Didi and Essien over Makelele
Nope, Mascherano doesn't get any game time at Barcelona. They are that many levels above their opponents that Bsquets more than covers them defensively in the middle of the park despite not really being that good at defensive duties. Mascherano is a pure defensive player, he doesn't fit in at all with Barcelona's system (all players are encouraged to attack even their CBs). Strange they bought him really.
Well sorry to repeat myself but a pure defensive player is not what a Liverpool central midfielder should be. I know I'm not qualified to say that, but it's how I feel. Central midfielders, defensive midfielders, holding midfielders or whatever term you use to describe Javier Mascherano, should be opperating somewhat in the opposing half. One of Mascherano's best games in a Liverpool shirt was the opening day against Arsenal this year where he was an influence in their half, even playing it through for Ngog's goal.
I've said on numerous occassions that Mascherano had the ability, and engine, to be a more complete central midfielder. The majority of his work could be defensive i.e. Didi but should be doing more in the opposing half as well. Especially at a club like Liverpool where 9 times out of 10 sides are gonna be sat in their own half wanting us to break them down.
Of course you'd rather have Didi, he fits in with your philosophy of how the game should be played (see: Don Howe's FA coaching manual published in the 70s). Didi isn't better than either, not a chance though. FWIW, Didi cost us £8m and around the same time Makelele cost €14m (which was £9m back in those days). Gerrard isn't a central midfielder, only Sky Sports believe this is the case. He's a second striker/attacking midfielder (well he can be a central midfielder but he's incredibly wasted there, a point echoed by Sacchi, Lippi, Trappatoni, Del Bosque and Benitez - I'm sure more would agree but they're the first few that come to my head). The game is evolving and all round roles are being dumped in favour of specialists, I get the fact that it pains you to hear that, but it's the truth.
Actually I'd rather have a Javier Mascherano who can be reguarlly potent in the opposing half because he's quicker than Didi and can around the pitch easier because of it. And the game may be evolving where specialist roles come more into play, that doesn't mean however that they're not able to still another role. Ian Rush was a specialised goalscorer, when you get to heaven though ask Bob Paisley who his best defender was and he'll say Rushie.
As for Gerrard, he is a central midfielder who is able to do various roles. He broke into the side in the middle of the park, his became a legend in many people's eyes as a central midfielder and it's only because of his ability that he's just as good on the right wing, behind Torres, right back or anywhere else really.
If you didn't watch those players, how can you form an opinion about them was the point I was trying to get at. I've seen a few of the games from the 60s/70s/80s (by the 90s I could watch them in person) which I've managed to download or copy one way or another (I'd be happy to share some of those games with you via torrent if the new technology doesn't scare you too much). Your knowledge of the club doesn't scare me (although it would be rich calling it knowledge seeing as you haven't actually watched the games, I strongly maintain the opinion that I didn't see enough to judge fairly) and I think it's admirable that you've gone to such lengths to learn the history, I think it's one of the things that sets us apart from other supporters but you can't really give pass off your own opinion as fact about the past if you weren't there to judge it.
I never saw The Jam, but I've formed the opinion that they're one of the greatest bands of all time. I never saw Henry VIII but I've formed the opinion he liked to put his knob about. I never saw Adolf Hitler but I've formed the opinion that he was one hell of a c**t. I've never seen me dad's dad but I've formed the opinion that he was one of the nicest fellas ever to live. You can form opinions on people you've never seen - I've never seen you but I have an opinion on you. Alls I have of you is words like I do for those already mentioned.
So I've formed an opinion on our past players due to what I've heard, seen and read. And most on here will tell you that I actually have a pretty good assesment of most of our ex players. I don't claim my opinion to be fact on anyone or anything, what I claim to be facts are the records of the past. And, with my knowledge of the club's history, I know most of the records to back up my opinion.
Would it be unreasonable to make the assumption that cost cutting was very high on the list of priorities after the 08/09 season, I don't think it would be. If you see it differently, more power to you.
I don't see it differently.
Yes, I too would prefer to win the league next year but I completely understand that Europe should've taken priority for the good of the club. Winning the league is for the bragging rights of me, you and other fans. Winning Europe is for the continued growth of Liverpool Football Club. It's a sad state of affairs when we have to worry about finances but that was the reality of the situation under those two cu*ts.
It was the reality of the last few years but the reality was also as a football club the League should of been our priority like it should be every year. The League is the one every fan of this club wants to win, it's the one the players want to win. Financial worries off the pitch shouldn't alter that.
Yes, but it's hardly down to the business end of things when you start prioritising one over the other for a club of our calibre. We should beat Northampton because of our sheer quality, those losses happen once every 50 years to a club of our stature. It's not unreasonable to make the assumption that during the early rounds of the cup against opponents of that quality, we should be winning 100% of the time if we go into the match prepared, our manager wasn't and paid the price for it. The gulf in quality between the two sides is simply far too large that it's truly a statistical anomaly that we lost that or sheer incompetence, take your pick.
Those results happen more often than you think. We've lost to sides like Burnley, Bristol City and Brighton within the last 50 years. We should be beating those sides, but sometimes we don't. It just happens. And we went out on penalties which is a lottery anyway - not that it should get to that stage mind. But shock results will always happen, they just do that's the beauty of football.
Seems to work well for you, if you think you're right - again, more power to you.
Merci.
I'd definitely take the word of a t-shirt manufacturer over the official website.
Our official website does actually have some wrong factual information on there, as has been discovered on this site in the past. And I'm sure t-shirt manufacutrers have printed wrongly at some point in time.
Yes, Busquets would make a horrible addition the Liverpool team because he doesn't score. Quick sell Reina, been here 5 years and not a single goal. Barcelona's philosophy was essentially Liverpool's old one but evolved (much like the game has evolved). Pass and move alone won't win you trophies, Barcelona has laid out many years of work including some of the best coaches and youth programs in the world to make what they've achieved possible. It's naive to think that because they pass and move they are successful, it's grossly understating the hard work and foundations they've laid. I posted an article in the General board (FC Barcelona thread) about their philosophy and there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.
Reina comment is very silly and petty as my arguement has been about central midfielders not scoring - not goalkeepers. But if Basquets doesn't score, he wouldn't be the sort of midfielder I'd want at Liverpool. I like complete central midfielders, the sort this club has been blessed with throughout the years.
I'm sure there is a lot more to Barcelona's than meets the eye. I don't watch them a great deal so I don't know a great deal about what meets the eye either. Other than they play free flowing football in a similar to way we once did. And it's proven that when we did it, we were successful. They're doing it, they're now successful. Ajax, possibly the inventors of total football, were successful when they first used it.
Returning to the good old fashioned pass and move is where we need to begin. And we've needed a return to it for a number of months now. I don't want us to copy Barcelona, but rather return to the way we once played. We had attacking full backs back then but who could still defend properly. We had central midfielders who'd work in both halves of the pitch and we had wingers who could go past people and whip in a cross. And goals from people other than the front two. All these things will happen at the Nou Camp I'd imagine?
That's the level we should be at because we perfected the game of pass and move.
Thick would be the word I'd use to describe a comment like "a side who use pass and move are successful. Really strange that. Ah well, no point in worrying about it - must just be a coincidence." If it's really that simple, why isn't everyone doing it? Don't belittle Barcelona's achievement by saying it's simply a case of pass and move makes a team amazing, the players are extraordinary, the youth system is fantastic and a whole lot of money has gone into it.
I'm not belittling what Barcelona have done, I'm aware that it's a bit more than just passing and moving that's got them into this position. But it must just be coindence that the pass and move sides are successful right? Returning to that would be the best start we could make in our hope to return to greatness.
edit: DLS, we should probably get back on topic - we're F***ing awful at this. I enjoy the banter and will happily continue it if: the mods are cool with it/it's in another thread.
On topic though: I'd still comfortably take Rafa's squad over Houllier's. Like I said, 3 quality players and Rafa's squad is ready to challenge for any and everything. 3 quality players to Houllier's squad and you've got Rafa's squad IMO.
I'd say most of this has been somewhat on topic and I can't see anybody getting a cob on with it because it's not getting nasty or anything like that. It's two people discussing their points of view.
The only thing people might bemoan about is the length of the posts, but when there's a lot to discuss posts tend to be quite long.
