Houllier's last squad v Rafa's

If you look at DLS point of winning the league first, I think our league winning squads probably had an emphasis on quality rather than quantity and i would level that arguement at the clubs buying over the past 20 years. We should have bought more quality but seemed to buy a lot of potential. Gerard did have a good squad when he took over from Roy and without the exploits of young Michael Owen its history may have been less kind to Gerard. I still believe Rafa's squad is stronger now then when he came but I guess that its an argument we may never agree on.

Our attacking impetus was dire due to sh*t wingers, a central midfield pairing who didn't do a great deal going forward, an injury prone forward and Gerrard being out of sorts.

Another person who can't seem to grasp that we didn't play with wingers, and that our central pairing were there to provide cover for the fullbacks to bomb forwards and provide the width, and then help compress the play further up the pitch.

The defence wasn't good enough last year. Made to look good by Reina, as I mentioned earlier.

Our attacking problems were not down to Steven Gerrard alone. Yes he didn't have his best year by any stretch but the serivce to him from the central pairing and the wide areas wasn't good enough. Simply because the players weren't (still aren't) good enough.

Stats are bollocks usually. Reina takes a goal kick, goes straight through to the opposing keeper and we've got a shot on target. So the number of shots doesn't really do much for me. What does is the fact that neither Mascherano or Lucas scored a Premiership goal. That by anybody's reasoning is a F***ing shocking fact. Your central midfielders not scoring is a disgrace. Central midfielders by the way not some bollock term you'll use to excuse them from not scoring.

I can study all those stats you want me to and rewatch every game from last year. Not only would I be suicidial but I'd also be reassured that neither Lucas or Mascherano offered us enough going forward. Two goals between them all season, none in the League, is enough for me to know they didn't offer enough going forward. No scapegoat, just simple facts from a lad with a footballing brain thanks.

It didn't stop us in 08/09 - like I said earlier. We think coming 2nd isn't stopping us these days. If you're happy with 2nd and believe that we wasn't stopped in doing so then great. Personally I'm slightly embarrassed to have a home coming for a side finishing 2nd.

Alonso's sale obviously played a role in us going from 2nd to 7th. As did Arbeloa's sale and Sami Hyypia's. They were replaced by players of a lesser quality. If you replace top quality with lesser, you're gonna get worse results. That's the secret to us going from 2nd to 7th.

If the League shouldn't be our bread and butter under Hicks and Gillett but instead Europe, why is Roy Hodgson being linched? He's had one transfer window to spend money - under Hicks and Gillett - and while the League isn't going well, he's unbeaten in Europe. By your reasoning, he should be up there with Paisley and Shankly. No, the League will always be our bread and butter. If we fail in it, then it's not good enough.

The defense was good enough for a title challenging team but not good enough to be champions, like I said it wasn't ideal but there were greater areas of concern.  We had the 3rd least goals conceded and considering our fullbacks were one who "can't defend" and another who was 21 years old and thrown in the deep end it was a superb team effort.  Agger and Carragher formed a formidable partnership and the big Greek fella and Skrtel were both quite good when called upon (that's a lie, Sotis was F***ing outstanding when called upon).  Reina was absolutely amazing but make no mistakes, the defense was good, Reina's contribution made it very good.

You'd be correct in saying our attacking problems weren't entirely due to Steven Gerrard, but that was the primary reason.  We all know he had a shocker by his standards (still 7 goals and 7 assists) but the nature of our system required more input from him which last season he didn't provide.  Must reiterate, I'm not going to hold it against him because he's a gem and I love the fact that he's on our team and not theirs.  Other contributing factors include the poor form of Kuyt (relative to previous seasons) and the criminal underuse of Benayoun.

Stats are bollocks unless they are being used to criticise Glen Johnson though.  Stats aren't the be all and end all of determining something, but they're handy but prone to error and a number of other factors which can skew them wildly.  For what little it's worth an end to end goal-kick from Reina isn't classified as a shot on target (I can actually dig up how many he did but I'd hazard a guess and say less than 5 comfortably as our game was based around possession and control whereas end to end goalkicks are a time-wasting measure ordinarily).

Again you use stats to disprove Lucas and Mascherano's worth to the team which is interesting for something which you only one paragraph earlier described as 'bollocks'.  To apply your logic to the next sentence (ie. stats=load of bollocks) - That by anybody's reasoning is a F***ing shocking load of bollocks.  This is where we agree.  Lucas and Mascherano weren't in the team as goal scoring central midfielders, admittedly Lucas probably should've chipped in a little more but he was introduced to the team a little earlier than he should have been and for whatever reason he just didn't (Xabi himself only scored 4 in 08/09 so to expect more than that would've been ludicrous given the high regard Xabi was held in).  You could argue that Xabi's role was to create and spray passes from the deep but roles and duties are only important if they suit your own agenda.  As far as Xabi is concerned he's a deep-lying playmaker who did this and that but Lucas was a central midfielder who should be scoring.

Xabi Alonso never got forward and it wasn't a problem.  Your use of the term central midfielder to describe Mascherano would actually indicate to the contrary of having a footballing brain.  The brain is always acquiring new knowledge and information whereas you don't seem to be (but back in the good old days, we did things this way and it worked - no back in the good old days what we did was revolutionary and forward thinking for it's time, therefore it worked) and now we need to apply the same mantra to the ever changing and modern game of football.

You're misguided in believing that 'not stopping us' equates to us 'being all we can be' but you can't deny things were moving in the right direction, obviously not at the level we'd hoped but it was a fairly good indicator of things going well, not very well but certainly well.  Never once did I say that I was happy with 2nd, I always want to win.

Our decline from 2nd to 7th can be attributed to one thing: less points relative to the rest of the competition and they just so happened to be from our away fixtures.  If you honestly believe that the sale of Alonso, Hyypia and Arbeloa made us lose our confidence away from home to that extreme, more power to you but it would be naive in the extreme.  Of course their departures contributed but 2 out of 3 were going to be no matter what (Arbeloa was going back to Spain, we did well to get in a quality replacement in Johnson and Hyypia was already 35 years old and Agger was really showing his quality, I think we all wish Sami would've been 30 forever).  

The Alonso sale was one I agreed with given our current financial predicament, sad state of affairs but that was the reality of LFC under those two cu*ts.  Replacing top quality players with weaker players isn't why we went from 7th to 2nd, football isn't played on paper.  Why aren't Blackpool 20th?  They have the least amount of quality players.  Why didn't Barcelona win the CL last year, they had the best players?  Not enough mention is given to the system, the philosophy and the tactics.  Players are an very important part of it but not the be all and end all.  Prime example is Mascherano vs Meireles, Mascherano is a better player but Meireles partners Lucas better so the weaker player is actually better for us in this instance.  Football is a team game and you need to find the right dynamic for a team to work, anyone suggesting otherwise is simply wrong.

The league shouldn't have been our bread under butter under those cu*ts for financial reasons, it simply made no sense to give priority to winning the league over winning in Europe - it could be these days (as the financial rewards are no longer vital given that we're not haemorraging money on debt repayments) but it is entirely the prerogative of either our manager or our board.  

Hodgson's being lynched for a number of different reasons ranging from not being in touch with the fans, serving up absolute sh*t on a stick football (even worse than our worst games under the previous regime) on a regular basis, being defeatist, deep throating Ferguson, the worst press conferences in the history of Liverpool, poor results, disrespecting previous Liverpool managers, failing to accept responsibility for when things go wrong, having man-management skills on par with Mike Bassett, alienating players, alienating fans, not carrying himself in dignified manner... I could go on but you get the point.

He did have one transfer window to "spend money" (under the previous regime, the term spending money doesn't really apply) and he had a shocker:

Konchesky for £3.5m?  Maybe worth a punt.
Sending Insua out on loan and then paying £3.5m for Konchesky?  Bad move but we all make mistakes.
Paying £3.5m + Kacaniklic and Della Valle for Konchesky?  Absolutely F***ing horrible move (We refused a £4m + clauses offer from Fulham last year for LDV - That's valuing Konchesky at over £8m).

Poulsen for £5m?  Paid too much for him.
Sending Aquilani out on loan?  If the idea was to cut wages, why did we sign Joe Cole when his wages are more.  If we didn't send Aquilani on loan, we didn't need Poulsen.

I don't know what reasoning you think I have.  All I said was when we were being bled dry by those two dickheads, we should've prioritised going further in European competition than trying to build on 4th place to achieve 3rd (ie. if the options were 4th maybe 3rd and a CL final or 2nd maybe 1st and CL quarter final, take the 4th and CL final).  Explain how he should be held in the same esteem as Paisley and Shankly because he's undefeated in Europe at the early stages of the Europa League.

Now that we appear to be on the right track and being run well, I'm in agreeance with you about the league being our bread and butter but in financial dire straights (which we were in) the opposite is true.  Let's hope it never comes to that again.

If you look at DLS point of winning the league first, I think our league winning squads probably had an emphasis on quality rather than quantity and i would level that arguement at the clubs buying over the past 20 years. We should have bought more quality but seemed to buy a lot of potential. Gerard did have a good squad when he took over from Roy and without the exploits of young Michael Owen its history may have been less kind to Gerard. I still believe Rafa's squad is stronger now then when he came but I guess that its an argument we may never agree on.

I agree totally that we should of been buying quality over quantity. And our squads when we were winning the League were smaller with more quality but that's because footballers were men back then who'd carry on playing through injury not take six weeks off for a nose bleed.

Without Owen things may of been different but every side has their one main goalscoring outlet. Without Torres, how different would the last few years of been? Without Fowler, how would the 90s of looked? Without Rush in the 80s, Keegan 70s and Hunt 60s would we of won as much? Or without Liddell, Hodgson, Balmer before those would we even be in the top flight to win League titles?

The defense was good enough for a title challenging team but not good enough to be champions, like I said it wasn't ideal but there were greater areas of concern.  We had the 3rd least goals conceded and considering our fullbacks were one who "can't defend" and another who was 21 years old and thrown in the deep end it was a superb team effort.  Agger and Carragher formed a formidable partnership and the big Greek fella and Skrtel were both quite good when called upon (that's a lie, Sotis was f**king outstanding when called upon).  Reina was absolutely amazing but make no mistakes, the defense was good, Reina's contribution made it very good.

You'd be correct in saying our attacking problems weren't entirely due to Steven Gerrard, but that was the primary reason.  We all know he had a shocker by his standards (still 7 goals and 7 assists) but the nature of our system required more input from him which last season he didn't provide.  Must reiterate, I'm not going to hold it against him because he's a gem and I love the fact that he's on our team and not theirs.  Other contributing factors include the poor form of Kuyt (relative to previous seasons) and the criminal underuse of Benayoun.

Stats are bollocks unless they are being used to criticise Glen Johnson though.  Stats aren't the be all and end all of determining something, but they're handy but prone to error and a number of other factors which can skew them wildly.  For what little it's worth an end to end goal-kick from Reina isn't classified as a shot on target (I can actually dig up how many he did but I'd hazard a guess and say less than 5 comfortably as our game was based around possession and control whereas end to end goalkicks are a time-wasting measure ordinarily).

Again you use stats to disprove Lucas and Mascherano's worth to the team which is interesting for something which you only one paragraph earlier described as 'bollocks'.  To apply your logic to the next sentence (ie. stats=load of bollocks) - That by anybody's reasoning is a f**king shocking load of bollocks.  This is where we agree.  Lucas and Mascherano weren't in the team as goal scoring central midfielders, admittedly Lucas probably should've chipped in a little more but he was introduced to the team a little earlier than he should have been and for whatever reason he just didn't (Xabi himself only scored 4 in 08/09 so to expect more than that would've been ludicrous given the high regard Xabi was held in).  You could argue that Xabi's role was to create and spray passes from the deep but roles and duties are only important if they suit your own agenda.  As far as Xabi is concerned he's a deep-lying playmaker who did this and that but Lucas was a central midfielder who should be scoring.

Xabi Alonso never got forward and it wasn't a problem.  Your use of the term central midfielder to describe Mascherano would actually indicate to the contrary of having a footballing brain.  The brain is always acquiring new knowledge and information whereas you don't seem to be (but back in the good old days, we did things this way and it worked - no back in the good old days what we did was revolutionary and forward thinking for it's time, therefore it worked) and now we need to apply the same mantra to the ever changing and modern game of football.

You're misguided in believing that 'not stopping us' equates to us 'being all we can be' but you can't deny things were moving in the right direction, obviously not at the level we'd hoped but it was a fairly good indicator of things going well, not very well but certainly well.  Never once did I say that I was happy with 2nd, I always want to win.

Our decline from 2nd to 7th can be attributed to one thing: less points relative to the rest of the competition and they just so happened to be from our away fixtures.  If you honestly believe that the sale of Alonso, Hyypia and Arbeloa made us lose our confidence away from home to that extreme, more power to you but it would be naive in the extreme.  Of course their departures contributed but 2 out of 3 were going to be no matter what (Arbeloa was going back to Spain, we did well to get in a quality replacement in Johnson and Hyypia was already 35 years old and Agger was really showing his quality, I think we all wish Sami would've been 30 forever). 

The Alonso sale was one I agreed with given our current financial predicament, sad state of affairs but that was the reality of LFC under those two cu*ts.  Replacing top quality players with weaker players isn't why we went from 7th to 2nd, football isn't played on paper.  Why aren't Blackpool 20th?  They have the least amount of quality players.  Why didn't Barcelona win the CL last year, they had the best players?  Not enough mention is given to the system, the philosophy and the tactics.  Players are an very important part of it but not the be all and end all.  Prime example is Mascherano vs Meireles, Mascherano is a better player but Meireles partners Lucas better so the weaker player is actually better for us in this instance.  Football is a team game and you need to find the right dynamic for a team to work, anyone suggesting otherwise is simply wrong.

The league shouldn't have been our bread under butter under those cu*ts for financial reasons, it simply made no sense to give priority to winning the league over winning in Europe - it could be these days (as the financial rewards are no longer vital given that we're not haemorraging money on debt repayments) but it is entirely the prerogative of either our manager or our board. 

Hodgson's being lynched for a number of different reasons ranging from not being in touch with the fans, serving up absolute sh*t on a stick football (even worse than our worst games under the previous regime) on a regular basis, being defeatist, deep throating Ferguson, the worst press conferences in the history of Liverpool, poor results, disrespecting previous Liverpool managers, failing to accept responsibility for when things go wrong, having man-management skills on par with Mike Bassett, alienating players, alienating fans, not carrying himself in dignified manner... I could go on but you get the point.

He did have one transfer window to "spend money" (under the previous regime, the term spending money doesn't really apply) and he had a shocker:

Konchesky for £3.5m?  Maybe worth a punt.
Sending Insua out on loan and then paying £3.5m for Konchesky?  Bad move but we all make mistakes.
Paying £3.5m + Kacaniklic and Della Valle for Konchesky?  Absolutely f**king horrible move (We refused a £4m + clauses offer from Fulham last year for LDV - That's valuing Konchesky at over £8m).

Poulsen for £5m?  Paid too much for him.
Sending Aquilani out on loan?  If the idea was to cut wages, why did we sign Joe Cole when his wages are more.  If we didn't send Aquilani on loan, we didn't need Poulsen.

I don't know what reasoning you think I have.  All I said was when we were being bled dry by those two dickheads, we should've prioritised going further in European competition than trying to build on 4th place to achieve 3rd (ie. if the options were 4th maybe 3rd and a CL final or 2nd maybe 1st and CL quarter final, take the 4th and CL final).  Explain how he should be held in the same esteem as Paisley and Shankly because he's undefeated in Europe at the early stages of the Europa League.

Now that we appear to be on the right track and being run well, I'm in agreeance with you about the league being our bread and butter but in financial dire straights (which we were in) the opposite is true.  Let's hope it never comes to that again.

Top drawer lad.

Another person who can't seem to grasp that we didn't play with wingers, and that our central pairing were there to provide cover for the fullbacks to bomb forwards and provide the width, and then help compress the play further up the pitch.

Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better.

Football is a simple cry made complicated by people who should know better.

It used to be - it's not anymore. Some would say it's to the detriment of the game in this country, but I'd much rather watch now, than in the mid 80's to mid 90's, when many teams played a glorified kick and rush.

The influx of foreign players and coaches, and the increasingly sophisticated tactics employed have meant that we now see very few English managers, let alone top drawer ones.

And there's a reason for that - they played or were nurtered during a period of anti-football, and in much the same way hodgson is, they are stuck in the past.

I remember interviews in the dark ages of english football with players who played in germany or italy, and the one thing they all had in common was the absolute belief that English football was light years behind the top continental leagues when it came to tactics, formations, training methods, diet, lifestyle etc etc.

The game of football is a dynamic entity, and we either move with the times, or perish in a self created wilderness of technical ability.

Back on topic, Rafa left behind a better squad overall - but in the end, it's what you do with the players you have at your disposal, and at the moment we are nowhere near getting the best out of them.

I have stayed off this post and let it run to see what happens. Most surprising Is that Walton had not come out and called the people who are disagreeing with him a judas or a WUM. Can only put this down to the postcounts of the ones he's at odds with. Also you sidekick corbally and Huyton have also stayed away mmmm funny that. Pathetic at times children really is.

Back on topic but I still say GED left a stronger squad ( not including the kids ) as I think the ones left from GED may have been missed off.

Probably cos I've been in and out today and I'm no ones side-kick you cheeky c**t, at least I know my clubs history.

Remind us again of the squad Houllier left in 2004?

Who's name did you say first Fowler's wasn't it?

Fowler, Owen, KeweL, Heskey, Smicer, Hypia, Cisse, Risse, Dudek, Finnan actually Biscan was quite a legend on the Kop IGOR!!!!!!! Had some spectacular games. Hardly crap players.
Although I didn't like Baros he had flair and wouldnt swap him for babel or NGog. So I stick by what I say.

Sums you F***ing up lad!!

Your missing the point Huyton he only comes on here to attract attention best ignore him.

There is no way he has inherited a worse side. It sure as damn better than the Fulham squad he previously managed looking at it from his perspective.

The defense was good enough for a title challenging team but not good enough to be champions, like I said it wasn't ideal but there were greater areas of concern.  We had the 3rd least goals conceded and considering our fullbacks were one who "can't defend" and another who was 21 years old and thrown in the deep end it was a superb team effort.  Agger and Carragher formed a formidable partnership and the big Greek fella and Skrtel were both quite good when called upon (that's a lie, Sotis was F***ing outstanding when called upon).  Reina was absolutely amazing but make no mistakes, the defense was good, Reina's contribution made it very good.

Our full backs defensively were sh*t last year and have been again this year. Our centre halves were shaky last year and have been again this year. Reina was outstanding last year in almost every game, this year he's been a shadow of that player with one or two excetional performances. That there is the difference.

You'd be correct in saying our attacking problems weren't entirely due to Steven Gerrard, but that was the primary reason.  We all know he had a shocker by his standards (still 7 goals and 7 assists) but the nature of our system required more input from him which last season he didn't provide.  Must reiterate, I'm not going to hold it against him because he's a gem and I love the fact that he's on our team and not theirs.  Other contributing factors include the poor form of Kuyt (relative to previous seasons) and the criminal underuse of Benayoun.

Gerrard's form was below par and shown up more by those around him not performing well enough. We can agree there.

Stats are bollocks unless they are being used to criticise Glen Johnson though.  Stats aren't the be all and end all of determining something, but they're handy but prone to error and a number of other factors which can skew them wildly.  For what little it's worth an end to end goal-kick from Reina isn't classified as a shot on target (I can actually dig up how many he did but I'd hazard a guess and say less than 5 comfortably as our game was based around possession and control whereas end to end goalkicks are a time-wasting measure ordinarily).

Stats are usually bollocks full stop, regardless of the point they're trying to make. You can twist stats to suit any argument which is why they're usually bollocks.

Again you use stats to disprove Lucas and Mascherano's worth to the team which is interesting for something which you only one paragraph earlier described as 'bollocks'.  To apply your logic to the next sentence (ie. stats=load of bollocks) - That by anybody's reasoning is a F***ing shocking load of bollocks.  This is where we agree.  Lucas and Mascherano weren't in the team as goal scoring central midfielders, admittedly Lucas probably should've chipped in a little more but he was introduced to the team a little earlier than he should have been and for whatever reason he just didn't (Xabi himself only scored 4 in 08/09 so to expect more than that would've been ludicrous given the high regard Xabi was held in).  You could argue that Xabi's role was to create and spray passes from the deep but roles and duties are only important if they suit your own agenda.  As far as Xabi is concerned he's a deep-lying playmaker who did this and that but Lucas was a central midfielder who should be scoring.

One stat I do see some reason is though goalscoring. Now sometimes it's misleading because it's possible a player doesn't score because it's cleared off the line i.e. Lucas at Goodison a few years back. So it'll say Lucas didn't score and unless you saw the incident you'd believe he did nothing.

However in over 60 games between them, for neither he or Mascherano to have one League goal last year is worrying as F**k. As is Lucas and Meireles not having a League goal between them up to now. Any central midfielder in a Liverpool side is there to score as well as cover at the back. That's the job of a central midfielder. That's what Lucas and Mascherano are. They didn't score enough therefore weren't doing their job properly nor were they creating enough to excuse their lack of goals.

Xabi would always chip in with a handful of goals. Granted it wasn't as many as it should of been, he'd always get some.

Xabi Alonso never got forward and it wasn't a problem.  Your use of the term central midfielder to describe Mascherano would actually indicate to the contrary of having a footballing brain.  The brain is always acquiring new knowledge and information whereas you don't seem to be (but back in the good old days, we did things this way and it worked - no back in the good old days what we did was revolutionary and forward thinking for it's time, therefore it worked) and now we need to apply the same mantra to the ever changing and modern game of football.

Xabi got forward and influenced the game in the opposition half. But you carry on believing that he never got forward. I won't convince you otherwise.

Mascherano is a central midfielder. I'm not gonna make up some term to excuse him from doing what a central midfielder should be doing. Didi Hamman sat in front of the back four, he still did the job of a central midifelder. Lucas is protecting the back these days, he's still having some influence further up the pitch. Mascherano was a poor man's Didi. A very poor man's.

And yes it did work in the good old days, why? Because we played football in a simple way. And everybody connected with Liverpool Football Club used the same simple method unlike now where we're coming up with new terms for no reason. Coming up with more extravogant systems that aren't working. Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better.

You're misguided in believing that 'not stopping us' equates to us 'being all we can be' but you can't deny things were moving in the right direction, obviously not at the level we'd hoped but it was a fairly good indicator of things going well, not very well but certainly well.  Never once did I say that I was happy with 2nd, I always want to win.

Yes we were going in the right direction. Then we went in the wrong direction - drastically.

Our decline from 2nd to 7th can be attributed to one thing: less points relative to the rest of the competition and they just so happened to be from our away fixtures.  If you honestly believe that the sale of Alonso, Hyypia and Arbeloa made us lose our confidence away from home to that extreme, more power to you but it would be naive in the extreme.  Of course their departures contributed but 2 out of 3 were going to be no matter what (Arbeloa was going back to Spain, we did well to get in a quality replacement in Johnson and Hyypia was already 35 years old and Agger was really showing his quality, I think we all wish Sami would've been 30 forever). 

The Alonso sale was one I agreed with given our current financial predicament, sad state of affairs but that was the reality of LFC under those two cu*ts.  Replacing top quality players with weaker players isn't why we went from 7th to 2nd, football isn't played on paper.  Why aren't Blackpool 20th?  They have the least amount of quality players.  Why didn't Barcelona win the CL last year, they had the best players?  Not enough mention is given to the system, the philosophy and the tactics.  Players are an very important part of it but not the be all and end all.  Prime example is Mascherano vs Meireles, Mascherano is a better player but Meireles partners Lucas better so the weaker player is actually better for us in this instance.  Football is a team game and you need to find the right dynamic for a team to work, anyone suggesting otherwise is simply wrong.

Firstly of course those sales had an influence because we stuck with the same system and philosophy and something went wrong. They weren't the only reason for our decline from 2nd to 7th, obviously other factors contributed to that. But, those three sales played a part. None of them were replaced by better quality in my opinion.

Secondly, Mascherano is not a better player than Meireles. As hard as it may be for some to admit that, Meireles is much the better player. He may not come in with some wild tackles but as an all round central midfielder Meireles pisses all over Mascherano.

Thirdly, quite correct football isn't played on paper - if it was god wouldn't of given us grass. That's why money isn't the reason we haven't won the League. That's why Blackpool aren't 20th. But if you keep the same system, keep the same philosophy ect but change personnel then what else is there to go from 2nd to 7th. Recently Benitez blamed Purslow for making too many changes in terms of personnel, I bet everybody on here swallowed that didn't they? But the personnel on the pitch changed for the worse that season. And it showed.

The league shouldn't have been our bread under butter under those cu*ts for financial reasons, it simply made no sense to give priority to winning the league over winning in Europe - it could be these days (as the financial rewards are no longer vital given that we're not haemorraging money on debt repayments) but it is entirely the prerogative of either our manager or our board. 

But football isn't played on paper or the boardroom so the League should be our bread and butter always. The League should always be prioritised for this club, should always be the aim at the start of the year. 04/05 from about October onwards we prioritised Europe over the League and that year it worked European wise but we almost missed out on Champions League football the following season because of it. Last year we priortised the Europa League over the Premiership and did miss out on Champions League football for this year because of it.

Our priority should always be the League regardless of who our owners are.

Hodgson's being lynched for a number of different reasons ranging from not being in touch with the fans, serving up absolute sh*t on a stick football (even worse than our worst games under the previous regime) on a regular basis, being defeatist, deep throating Ferguson, the worst press conferences in the history of Liverpool, poor results, disrespecting previous Liverpool managers, failing to accept responsibility for when things go wrong, having man-management skills on par with Mike Bassett, alienating players, alienating fans, not carrying himself in dignified manner... I could go on but you get the point.

He did have one transfer window to "spend money" (under the previous regime, the term spending money doesn't really apply) and he had a shocker:

Konchesky for £3.5m?  Maybe worth a punt.
Sending Insua out on loan and then paying £3.5m for Konchesky?  Bad move but we all make mistakes.
Paying £3.5m + Kacaniklic and Della Valle for Konchesky?  Absolutely F***ing horrible move (We refused a £4m + clauses offer from Fulham last year for LDV - That's valuing Konchesky at over £8m).

Poulsen for £5m?  Paid too much for him.
Sending Aquilani out on loan?  If the idea was to cut wages, why did we sign Joe Cole when his wages are more.  If we didn't send Aquilani on loan, we didn't need Poulsen.

I don't know what reasoning you think I have.  All I said was when we were being bled dry by those two dickheads, we should've prioritised going further in European competition than trying to build on 4th place to achieve 3rd (ie. if the options were 4th maybe 3rd and a CL final or 2nd maybe 1st and CL quarter final, take the 4th and CL final).  Explain how he should be held in the same esteem as Paisley and Shankly because he's undefeated in Europe at the early stages of the Europa League.

You think under Hicks and Gillett Europe should be priortised, well Roy Hodgson has only had one transfer window and that was under Hicks and Gillett, therefore he should be prioritising Europe and judging by his European record whilst here, he has. (He hasn't judging by the his squad selections) So using your logic of putting Europe first under Hicks and Gillett, Hodgson has done a great job and should be held in high regard and not forced out which so many want. That's going on your point of putting Europe first.

Using my point of putting the League first, Hodgson should be signing on in the dole because our League form is a shambles. But, very much like last year, our home form is alright and our away form is a disgrace. That's not good enough from Roy Hodgson, Rafa Benitez or anybody else. We should be prioritising the League always.

As for Hodgson's transfer record, it isn't really all that great. However we all know had Benitez made the same deal for Konchesky under Hicks' and Gillett's ownership, they'd of taken the blame for not giving him enough money and the only way he could get the player was by offering them two youngsters. But that's not worth discussing because we know that's the case whether or not people will deny it.

Now that we appear to be on the right track and being run well, I'm in agreeance with you about the league being our bread and butter but in financial dire straights (which we were in) the opposite is true.  Let's hope it never comes to that again.

Yes lets hope that never happens again but as I've said, regardless of who our owners are/were the League should always be our bread and butter. That's what this club strives for.

I remember interviews in the dark ages of english football with players who played in germany or italy, and the one thing they all had in common was the absolute belief that English football was light years behind the top continental leagues when it came to tactics, formations, training methods, diet, lifestyle etc etc.

Not gonna bother with the rest because it's not worth it to be honest.

But this I will bring you up on, if during the dark ages of 70s, 80s, 90s football why was it English football dominated the European game? 77 Liverpool, 78 Liverpool, 79 Notts Forest, 80 Notts Forest, 81 Liverpool 82 Aston Villa 84 Liverpool. And we'd of won it in 85 if the Heysel disaster didn't happen.

The only way the rest of Europe could catch up and over take England's clubs on the European front was by banning the nation from Europe. England's sides (most notabally us), up until that point, was miles ahead of Europe's other top clubs because we played in a simple manner that overran the fancy European styles.

Woy inherited a better squad, but in a more competitive Premier League. That's no excuse for how poor our form has been at times, but it's just a simple observation. I also think Rafa's ambitions were greater initially. He felt he had a lot to prove, whereas Woy and his 35 years of experience speak for themselves.

I don't think the teams are terribly different in terms of quality. Spot on to whoever pointed out the quality of youth Woy inherited.  I think that was one of Rafa's best contributions, getting the youth system up and moving. We should have some quality coming up in the next 5 years.

Rafa inherited a younger Carragher and Stevie, two talismanic players for this club coming in to their primes, whereas Woy inherited an older Steven Gerrard (still World Class but declining slightly) and Torres, who while he is the best Center Forward in the world, is oft-injured. The cover at forward is worse in this era, so we will notice the loss of a Torres more than Ged's squad would have noticed the loss of an Owen.

Out of those groups, I'd be interested to see everyone's best XI and squad. For players like Stevie and Carra, I'd choose the version (either 2004 or 2010).

I dont remember playing kick and run football in the so called Dark ages i think the mantra was pass and move we could do a lot worse than adopt a similar mantra now instead of everyone back behind the ball.

Concerning this topic I'd implore you all to take a good look Vitez's posts. Class!

Our full backs defensively were sh*t last year and have been again this year. Our centre halves were shaky last year and have been again this year. Reina was outstanding last year in almost every game, this year he's been a shadow of that player with one or two excetional performances. That there is the difference.

Gerrard's form was below par and shown up more by those around him not performing well enough. We can agree there.

Stats are usually bollocks full stop, regardless of the point they're trying to make. You can twist stats to suit any argument which is why they're usually bollocks.

One stat I do see some reason is though goalscoring. Now sometimes it's misleading because it's possible a player doesn't score because it's cleared off the line i.e. Lucas at Goodison a few years back. So it'll say Lucas didn't score and unless you saw the incident you'd believe he did nothing.

However in over 60 games between them, for neither he or Mascherano to have one League goal last year is worrying as F**k. As is Lucas and Meireles not having a League goal between them up to now. Any central midfielder in a Liverpool side is there to score as well as cover at the back. That's the job of a central midfielder. That's what Lucas and Mascherano are. They didn't score enough therefore weren't doing their job properly nor were they creating enough to excuse their lack of goals.

Xabi would always chip in with a handful of goals. Granted it wasn't as many as it should of been, he'd always get some.

Xabi got forward and influenced the game in the opposition half. But you carry on believing that he never got forward. I won't convince you otherwise.

Mascherano is a central midfielder. I'm not gonna make up some term to excuse him from doing what a central midfielder should be doing. Didi Hamman sat in front of the back four, he still did the job of a central midifelder. Lucas is protecting the back these days, he's still having some influence further up the pitch. Mascherano was a poor man's Didi. A very poor man's.

And yes it did work in the good old days, why? Because we played football in a simple way. And everybody connected with Liverpool Football Club used the same simple method unlike now where we're coming up with new terms for no reason. Coming up with more extravogant systems that aren't working. Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better.

Yes we were going in the right direction. Then we went in the wrong direction - drastically.

Firstly of course those sales had an influence because we stuck with the same system and philosophy and something went wrong. They weren't the only reason for our decline from 2nd to 7th, obviously other factors contributed to that. But, those three sales played a part. None of them were replaced by better quality in my opinion.

Secondly, Mascherano is not a better player than Meireles. As hard as it may be for some to admit that, Meireles is much the better player. He may not come in with some wild tackles but as an all round central midfielder Meireles pisses all over Mascherano.

Thirdly, quite correct football isn't played on paper - if it was god wouldn't of given us grass. That's why money isn't the reason we haven't won the League. That's why Blackpool aren't 20th. But if you keep the same system, keep the same philosophy ect but change personnel then what else is there to go from 2nd to 7th. Recently Benitez blamed Purslow for making too many changes in terms of personnel, I bet everybody on here swallowed that didn't they? But the personnel on the pitch changed for the worse that season. And it showed.

But football isn't played on paper or the boardroom so the League should be our bread and butter always. The League should always be prioritised for this club, should always be the aim at the start of the year. 04/05 from about October onwards we prioritised Europe over the League and that year it worked European wise but we almost missed out on Champions League football the following season because of it. Last year we priortised the Europa League over the Premiership and did miss out on Champions League football for this year because of it.

Our priority should always be the League regardless of who our owners are.
You think under Hicks and Gillett Europe should be priortised, well Roy Hodgson has only had one transfer window and that was under Hicks and Gillett, therefore he should be prioritising Europe and judging by his European record whilst here, he has. (He hasn't judging by the his squad selections) So using your logic of putting Europe first under Hicks and Gillett, Hodgson has done a great job and should be held in high regard and not forced out which so many want. That's going on your point of putting Europe first.

Using my point of putting the League first, Hodgson should be signing on in the dole because our League form is a shambles. But, very much like last year, our home form is alright and our away form is a disgrace. That's not good enough from Roy Hodgson, Rafa Benitez or anybody else. We should be prioritising the League always.

As for Hodgson's transfer record, it isn't really all that great. However we all know had Benitez made the same deal for Konchesky under Hicks' and Gillett's ownership, they'd of taken the blame for not giving him enough money and the only way he could get the player was by offering them two youngsters. But that's not worth discussing because we know that's the case whether or not people will deny it.

Yes lets hope that never happens again but as I've said, regardless of who our owners are/were the League should always be our bread and butter. That's what this club strives for.

I wrote a long reply which my internet browser decided would be a perfect late snack and ate it all up.

In short: For a guy that compains we were too defensive, why would you pick apart our defense for being good instead of amazing instead of our attack that was average instead of good.  There was also the transition from man-to-man marking from zonal (takes time to adjust), Konchesky instead of Insua (Insua was a better defender).  

I'm glad you think that 7 clean sheets in 9 games without Johnson means it's possible you've twisted the stats in your favour to suit your agenda of him not being a good defender when in fact it's only his positioning that's average (he's good in the tackle).

Xabi scored on average 1-2 goals more a season, it's hardly as if that amount would catapult us to the next tier of footballing prowess.  Conversely, Lucas does more defensive work - if he stops one or two goal a season more, it evens out.

It's not your job to define the role of how Liverpool's central midfielders should play, stop thinking it is.

Mascherano is not a poor man's Didi, you're wrong.  We don't need to invent terms like defensive midfielder, they've been around for many years.  Stop clinging onto the past like a 2 year old with a teddy or a religious zealot who takes the bible literally.

Mascherano is a better player than Meireles.  Meireles just suits our game better at the moment so he's more useful to us.

Rafa blamed Purslow for changing the emphasis to cost-cutting which included change in personnel, big difference.

Our priority should be Europe if our finances are in dire straights.  The difference between winning the league and 4th is about £3m, the difference between a CL final and being knocked out in the group stages is about £30m.  You'd make an awful accountant.

Actually, he's prioritised the league but due to us shitting on 3 other opponents by right of being a big club we've qualified using young guns and fringe players.  Europe hasn't started yet.

I'd bet my house that Rafa wouldn't have allowed himself to be bullied in the transfer market nearly as heavily as Hodgson was.

edit: You're also undermining Rafa's abilities at coaching the defensive game (he's one of the best in Europe at doing so, while Hodgson prefers to concentrate on fitness).  Also the quote you keep repeating as gospel is actually “Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple”.  Also, just to keep it on topic - Rafa's squad is better than Houllier's.

I dont remember playing kick and run football in the so called Dark ages i think the mantra was pass and move we could do a lot worse than adopt a similar mantra now instead of everyone back behind the ball.

we were one of the few sides who played that way - which is probably why we were so successfull.

DLS - one overbiding memory of those Euro winning sides and all the sides playing in Europe were the words "And back to Clemence" or whoever the goalie happened to be...
The back pass rule was brought in precisely because of the WAY we dominated - go a goal up, keep the ball amongst the back four and pass it back to the goalie.
Of course it wasn't like that in every game, but you'd do well to remove those rose tinted glasses, and remember the reality.
As for ignoring the rest of my post - it's what you usually do when you can't address someone elses point, so I'm used to that kind of bullshit at this stage.

Key word is sanity

Vitez

You cannot claim that Johnson is a good defender just because he doesn't know how to position himself. That he doesn't know what to do and gets caught out of position time and again makes him a poor defender in my book.

Take Sami hardly the fastest defender on earth but it was his positioning and reading of the game that made him a great. Not as though Johnson is an 18 year old kid, he should not be getting caught out time and again at this stag in his career.

Vitez

You cannot claim that Johnson is a good defender just because he doesn't know how to position himself. That he doesn't know what to do and gets caught out of position time and again makes him a poor defender in my book.

Take Sami hardly the fastest defender on earth but it was his positioning and reading of the game that made him a great. Not as though Johnson is an 18 year old kid, he should not be getting caught out time and again at this stag in his career.

I'm claiming that all fullbacks will often get caught out of position and that Johnson is no exception.  Although it does happen more often than usual, regardless of that he's solid in the tackle, pretty good at blocking crosses, good anticipation with the pace to match and he positions himself well once he's actually goal-side of the man.

Sami was brilliant and his reading of the game was outstanding.  It's what allowed him to compete at such a high level despite being very slow.  Johnson's is worse but he has the pace to make up for it, what seems to be the problem here?

Kelly is simply not ready to play at RB week in, week out - he makes far more mistakes than Johnson and his positional play is actually worse (he doesn't get caught on the turn as much but once goal-side of the man, he's actually quite awful).  I like Kelly and have high hopes for him but he's just not ready to make the step up yet, we don't have another player who can play at RB so the crusade against Johnson is unnecessary, counter-productive and straight out of the sky sports textbook.

Would be interesting to see the average age of both squads I think.

Sami was fine until pulled out wide then it was a free kick and a booking. If Johnson didnt get so far forward he wouldnt get caught out but I thought we wanted attacking fullbacks.
Kelly is a centre back playing fullback adequate for back up only, hopefully he will get to play CB soon. I have seen Johnson put plenty of solid tackles in and cover his CB plenty of times although he is not naturally defensive minded thank god. Ho wmany goals have come from his "poor"defending.

Sami is the best defender we've had since Hansen.