'The Importance of the 'Spine Team'

*Apologies to staff if a relevant topic exists. Felt it deserved a fresh debate*

Firstly, I was struck with nostalgia this evening.  When I stumbled across an image of what used to be...



This team photo was taken, before kick-off, during our historic win over Real Madrid in the Champions League, March 2009.

Tell me this sight wasn't brilliant. That you felt at ease, that finally, we had a squad that was strong enough to take on any team, and compete for any trophy that we set our sights on.

We were a scary side to play against. A force to be reckoned with, the future was bright.  We finished the season in 2nd place, missing out on the League Title by 4 points. Too many draws at home...

Fast forward 3 years & 2 dismal seasons later, three of those important spine players are playing their trade elsewhere.  Although we did receive good business for each. (Although the Alonso & Mascherano fee's went 'missing', in to the back pockets of H&G).

So how have we replaced these all important figures in the spine of the team?

You could agree that we've had a definite step up in central defensive play, with Lucas Leiva, after the parting of Mascherano.

And what else could also be argued, that we've had one world class striker for another, in Luis Suarez. But that was Rafa's team. And the above team stayed that way (with the exemption of Johnson, who was signed the following summer) until he departed the club.

With Kenny in charge now, (and with the assistance of Damien Comolli on transfers). We've moaned, we've groaned, and once or twice rejoiced with some of the players coming in.

2009 Spine;
Reina
Carragher
Mascherano
Alonso
Gerrard
Torres.

Our spine team has been a story of two tales this season, due to injuries. So I've missed out Agger, Johnson, Lucas, & Bellamy.

2012 Spine;
Reina
Enrique
Skrtel
Gerrard
Suarez

We're just not the venomous Liverpool, that we used to be. We seem to be stable at the back, probably our strongest point in the squad. But we're simply not enough winning games. Squad consistency has been poor, selection & form wise.

Reina, who has always been one of our stand out players, is having a rather 'off season'. With Stevie, age & injuries seem to have taken their toll on his impact of play.  Suarez just doesn't appear to be the 20/30 goal a season striker, that he was in Holland.

The jury is still out there for the likes of Adam, Henderson, Downing, & Carroll, should any of them become important figures in the future.

Agger & Johnson always appear to be out with an injury. We all know once Lucas is fit, he normally doesn't miss a game. Even our 'captain fantastic' Steven Gerrard, could find himself back on the sidelines.  And out of the spine, as Carragher has sadly found himself.

So where do we go from here?

Summer 2012 is going to be a tricky one for us in the transfer market.  As we are out of the race for a Champions League place, currently lying 8th. The lure on star players will be a harder to get them to 'join the FSG plan'.

Will any of our under-performing signings become spine players in, 1 - 2 seasons time? What about 'the kids'? We've had a couple of them step up to the plate. Kelly and Spearing certainly have made a statement in proving themselves, when given the chance.

Maybe we need to start again.

Come what may.

IKWT

That team makes me want to cry. To think they use to beat Rafa with the 'crap transfer policy' stick is just fantastical. I mean our spine now is his apart from Suarez, even Babel looked better on his day than Adam or Downing. My question is that if Rafa knew the spanish market and could exploit this with astute pick ups (especially  at the ~1o mill range) what is Commolli doing. Presumably we need to have a quota of british players under the new rules. Even Rafa was starting to do this. Presumably our youth development plans are well underway as Rafa started this a while ago. If Commolli is director of football presumably signings are his area, not really Kenny's. Quite honestly the 80 million spent on Carroll, Henderson, Downing and Adam has been at this point spunked. Compared to Alonso, Mascherano, Torres and Agger say. What is the reason for this?

I can understand you not having Agger in your spine but Lucas is one for sure. His injury was a one off. He isnt injury prone, cant wait to see him back.

Hopefully we can add to the spine this summer. Every position doesnt have to be covered but just most.

What a night that was.
#depressingtopics

Tell me this sight wasn't brilliant. That you felt at ease, that finally, we had a squad that was strong enough to take on any team, and compete for any trophy that we set our sights on.

That it was Court.

There can be no underestimating the damage done to this club by Hicks & Gillett... their selling of players to pay down debt and their broken promises to others. It took four seasons to get that team to that point and three transfer windows to decimate it.

It took four seasons to get that team to that point and three transfer windows to decimate it.

That it did BBB and people thought Kenny could fix it in one, the mind boggles .

What a F***ing team. Number 1 ranked in europe. Long while before we see a team like that again. Looking at that makes me wanna cry when i see us now compared to that team

When you look at that photo and see the 'weak' links in the team are players as good as Aurelio, Arbeloa and,  on his day, Babel it really does show how good a side we had back then.

But we all know the reasons why we don't have such a side now and it will take a bit of time to get back there.

The spine of the team was a philosophy Bill Shankly used,he believed you should have a good goalkeeper,centre half and centre forward and then fill in the other positions.Now who could argue with Tommy Lawrence,Rowdy Yeats and Ian StJohn right down the middle,they were the catalyst to our successes.
                                          The players in the photo taken before the kickoff against Real Madrid look as though they wanted to take Real apart,and they did.

Leaders all over the pitch then too.
Best Liverpool team of my generation and probably will be for a long time.

I think you could easily make a topic about how important Alonso was to the spine of our team, but that might open up a can of worms for some.

Great picture that, anyway.

Mascherano is a massive loss as well looking at him last night made me sad thinking of what we sold him for

What a great post Court.
That picture really hammers home how ridiculously good we were that season and there's no doubt we shouldve won the league as well.

The spine of that team, at that time, could have played for any of the top teams in world football. Can the same be said now?
No F***ing chance!!

It took Rafa a few years to create that team and who knows maybe Kenny can do the same but if your comparing that spine to today's then we have no chance anytime soon.

Mascherano is a massive loss as well looking at him last night made me sad thinking of what we sold him for

Very true, and though Lucas is a different defensive midfielder to him, I do think that loss has been tempered somewhat by our Brazilian's best form to date of recent years. In fact you could argue that since Alonso and Mascherano left Lucas has really come into his own.

Still prone to complete lack of judgment is Masch though, what was he doing playing Nocerino onside for Milan's goal last night for example..

Still some people blamed Rafa and wanted him out.

Take out Gerrard & Carra out of the pic what is the combined purchase price for all the rest of the players in the pic?

Is it about £75-£80 million?

It would be great to have one again and I'm not talking about four or five key players in a team.

Take out Gerrard & Carra out of the pic what is the combined purchase price for all the rest of the players in the pic?

Is it about £75-£80 million?

Not sure, but under £100 million "for sure".

Now I wouldn't mind the media claiming Kenny has spent over £100 million so far if the first team looked like that!

Reina
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Gerrard
Suarez

That's our spine now, fully fit. They haven't played a minute together this season afaik.

You put IKWT at the end of the post.
That was positive.

Not sure, but under £100 million "for sure".

Now I wouldn't mind the media claiming Kenny has spent over £100 million so far if the first team looked like that!

But Kenny's team has already won more than that team ever won. Possibly the best Liverpool team to win nothing. Only 4 players out of that team ever won anything at Liverpool before Kenny, 5 of those players have already won something under Kenny.

Will they ever with Agger and Gerrard injuries play together.

Reina
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Gerrard
Suarez

That's our spine now, fully fit. They haven't played a minute together this season afaik.

Add the fullbacks we have to that side and it is only really the wide areas and up front the where we appear weak.

But Kenny's team has already won more than that team ever won. Only 4 players out of that team ever won anything at Liverpool before Kenny, 5 of those players have already won something under Kenny.

Don't start, wasn't saying I wanted Rafa back, just that the team in the photo was one of our most talented for years, and we paid the nowadays equivalent of peanuts for a lot of those players.

And if I must get into that debate, I would swap that team for the current one in a heartbeat.

Three things are sad about that 2009 spine.

1. They didn't win anything.
2. Three of those players asked for transfers due to the failure of our previous owners to kick forwards.
3. The remaining three have got older, lost form and look sadly a shadow of their former selves.

And if I must get into that debate, I would swap that team for the current one in a heartbeat.

Agree Ayrton and I'm not sure anyone could look at that photo and think any different as the team above has quality all over it.

But the current team is still a work in progress and in a few years we could be looking back at this one in the same way.

There's no doubting we had a very strong starting 11 that season but beyond those 11 we didn't have a strong squad. 

If I remember correctly it took Rafa 4 seasons to assemble them, with more than a few duds along the way.  So let's compare again when Kenny's had the same length of time 

Don't start, wasn't saying I wanted Rafa back, just that the team in the photo was one of our most talented for years, and we paid the nowadays equivalent of peanuts for a lot of those players.

And if I must get into that debate, I would swap that team for the current one in a heartbeat.

Wasn't "starting anything" was just stating a fact. That team had some great players but won nothing.  I never even mentioned Rafa....

Will they ever with Agger and Gerrard injuries play together.

Why wouldn't they Corb, this season is not over yet,and we have next season to look forward to, Gerrard maybe past his best but he is still class and head and shoulders above most midfielders in the league, why do always put a negative spin on things ?

I never even mentioned Rafa....

Just have.

You hardly think the current team is a patch on that team do you saint that team finished on 86 points what points are we now.

Just have.

But only after he did 

I think it's great to have a good spine, but unless they have good players around them you will still win nothing. It's the quality of the team/squad as a whole that counts.

You hardly think the current team is a patch on that team do you saint that team finished on 86 points what points are we now.

 

Ask me again when Kenny has been here 4 years and has bought and sold as many players as were needed to build that side.

Divide by 2, Corbs.

One of the biggest shames for me is that some fans are to blame for our downfall. Certain fans allowed the media to thrive on Rafa's one bad season and that's what ultimately allowed H & G to get rid without a huge backlash. The people who wanted Rafa gone either didn't understand The Liverpool Way or just made an enormous error in judgement. The sacking of Rafa was the beginning of the end.

One of the biggest shames for me is that some fans are to blame for our downfall. Certain fans allowed the media to thrive on Rafa's one bad season and that's what ultimately allowed H & G to get rid without a huge backlash. The people who wanted Rafa gone either didn't understand The Liverpool Way or just made an enormous error in judgement. The sacking of Rafa was the beginning of the end.

No mate, Kenny leaving was the beginning of the end.  Hopefully his return marks a new beginning.

Kenny is here this summer a year and a half. Im looking forward to two and a half yeartime  when we have as good a team and are hammering all before us in the champions league again.

That is the strongest team we had since 91 and was a joy to watch. Rafa deserves great credit for building as strong a team with hicks and gillette there.

Kenny is here this summer a year and a half. Im looking forward to two and a half yeartime  when we have as good a team and are hammering all before us in the champions league again.

That is the strongest team we had since 91 and was a joy to watch. Rafa deserves great credit for building as strong a team with hicks and gillette there.

As all the nice girls say, it's not what you have got ...... it's what you do with it.

Christ Court starts a thread with a very good opening post and within 30 replies it's turned into a Kenny v Rafa debate.

As for that team, yeah it was a F***ing brilliant team but very much like this side it failed to beat the "lesser" sides at Anfield. In the League that year we drew at home to Stoke, Fulham, West Ham, Hull, Everton, Man City, Arsenal. 14 dropped points at home, that's what cost us that year so as good as that side was in 2008/09 it still didn't have the player to unlock the sides that parked the bus. Everton is always a tricky game at any ground, Arsenal was a fluke result with Arshavin but the other five are games we should of won. I think the draw with West Ham took us top of the table though. This year, we've again struggled at home with draws, as well as a few home defeats.

When will we see an improvement on that side? Over time we will.

In fact I'd hazard a guess that people would take today's back four over the one in 08/09. Some would take Lucas over Mascherano. Some would take Suarez over Torres. Some would take anybody over Babel. So about half of today's team would of made the team of 08/09. Are we really that far behind where we were?

If we had our spine fully fit all season this year, we'd obviously be in a much better position than where we are. If we had Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Gerrard, Suarez, Carroll fit and available all season we'd be much better off. There's no denying that but we haven't and that's why you need competent cover. We, in crucial areas, do not have it this season. Unfortunately neither Henderson or Adam are cover for Gerrard. Neither Coates or Carragher are cover for Skrtel or Agger. Kuyt isn't cover for Suarez.

But if we can keep hold of the majority of this squad in the summer (obviously some will part) and we can bring in one or two decent buys then our spine is starting to look good enough again. It may not be as good as 08/09 but then again 08/09 wasn't as good as 88/89.

For me, we're not a million miles off what we want. We're close and it will come down to some smart signings in the summer. Doesn't have to be big name signings or big money signings just smart.

You hardly think the current team is a patch on that team do you saint that team finished on 86 points what points are we now.

And that was at the end of our former manager's FIFTH season in charge. 

Wow what a team that was, regardless if they didn't win anything. Seeing that picture makes me sad because of the quality we had in that team.

Regarding the spine, we simply haven't recovered from selling Alonso and Torres. To me, Lucas has filled in nicely for Mascherano, and Agger/Skrtel are a great partnership when fit. But, Gerrard can't replace Alonso (different type of midfielder), nor can Adam (quality) or Henderson (mystery - although I'd like to see him played in that role before the season's over).

The strike partnership is another thing. Torres and Gerrard were amazing together, and they had a great balance between their respective strengths. We don't have a striker that can play like Torres could, controlling the front line and being a pacey, dominate lone striker. As much as we love Luis, he just isn't that type of forward, and Carroll certainly isn't. Nor can Suarez replace the Gerrard of 08/09 playing off the striker. Gerrard and Suarez doesn't quite work, nor does Suarez and Carroll, nor does Gerrard and Carroll. In a weird sort of way, it's almost as if Gerrard can't really fit in anymore if we want the best from him.

The current spine is missing that deep-lying CM partner for Lucas and a dominate striker. Maybe Gerrard, at 32 next season, can develop into that regista, but whether or not we're dominate up front will dictate where Gerrard plays, if that makes sense.

We had the best keeper in the world, the best midfield in the world and the best forward in the world.

We now only have the best keeper in the world, who is having an off season and only one of the holy midfield trinity left.

Some well rounded posts in here. Thought I'd leave it until after work before having another crack at this topic.

I may have derailed myself slightly in my opening post, (nostalgia, & a bit of U2 had me quite inspired. With a tad of excitement). Didn't mean for a Rafa - Kenny debate.  What I meant to add was that, does anyone believe that the likes of our under performing signings that Kenny has brought in, will become key first team players in the future?  Aka spine players?

The likes of Henderson, Adam, Downing, Carroll.  Let's even throw 'the kids' in to the mix, Kelly, Flanno, Spearing, Sterling, Suso, Eccleston, ETC.

My personal opinion is that the players that have come through from the academy, have shown much more grit, determination, and dare I say potential, than the likes of the players brought in.

I'm completely lost on Adam. His early comparisons to Xabi Alonso are beyond a joke, & his 'specialist' set-pieces are even worse. Well at least he didn't cost £20m+. Over-rated waste of space.

Some could say the same for Downing. Completely on the fence with the lad.  Read a 'stat' that he's not made an assist all season? I'd still give him another chance, I thought he's played well, but gone really quiet in most parts of the season. Perhaps he needs confidence.

Henderson seems to do a lot of tracking the man, and the ball.  Goes missing throughout the game too often. Hope the experience from this season takes him on leaps and bounds next time around.

We finally come to our No. 9, Andy Carroll.  Last but not least. 

Price tag aside. He's had his up's and downs. I just can't work him out.  It's not that he's not good enough, there is definite potential in the lad, if played right.  He just seems to be... lazy? Or does he lack enough awareness? People are far too critical of him, than they should be. I think he's going to come good, if given enough games, and not dropped after he has a good game.  Another issue on confidence.

For me, we're not a million miles off what we want. We're close and it will come down to some smart signings in the summer. Doesn't have to be big name signings or big money signings just smart.

Spot on.  We need to be smart, and assess who stays and who goes, come the summer. The smart signings will be key.

It's amazing how quickly something so good can go so bad. But I really don't think it's THAT bad. Performance wise, this is the best team we've had since then I feel. We have played some outstanding football at time, we just can't finish. We've also been unlucky not having our current spine play together much, if at all. For the record, my spine is: Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Gerrard and Suarez, and Johnson just off that. Can't recall if they've played one minute together this year.

Obviously, results wise, we're in the shi**er, but I think football is one of those games where you just don't get your crack of the whip. Every team has sh*t performances. Ours would be far less worrying if we had won the games we should have earlier this season. But we didn't. Oh well. We also won a trophy, something which that spine never did. We're also in with a shout of making the FA Cup Final, and I don't think that spine even made the semis (could be wrong, can't really remember).

I'm not as down as many. I expect better, but I understand how it could be so much worse, and I have faith that we'll push out of this.

Reina
Enrique
Agger
Skrtel
Gerrard
Lucas
Suarez

They are our spine when fit. If we could add two players to that in the summer it would be great.

I think the point became a Rafa v Kenny debate. Whereas I think it should be a Rafa v Comolli debate. Of the spine above Suarez and Enrique weren't bought by Rafa (Gerrard aside). I Enrique better than Aurelio or Arbeloa. The point is you CANNOT spunk 80 million pounds on Hendo, Adam, Carroll and Downing. Everyone can make mistakes but that is too much money to throw away. THese players can be good players for some percentage of games but are they players who allow you to control the tempo of a game to avoid panic at the end!

We had the best keeper in the world, the best midfield in the world and the best forward in the world.

We now only have the best keeper in the world, who is having an off season and only one of the holy midfield trinity left.

This is the problem these players were not replaced,(Alonso and Torres) were never replaced thats the main problem for me !!!

Kenny is here this summer a year and a half. Im looking forward to two and a half yeartime  when we have as good a team and are hammering all before us in the champions league again.

That is the strongest team we had since 91 and was a joy to watch. Rafa deserves great credit for building as strong a team with hicks and gillette there.

He certainly does but then he also must shoulder some of the blame for the fact that it started to come apart the following summer. Alonso was the big one but Sami and Arbeloa were big losses as well.

Rafa was used by the owners as a scapegoat. The press ran with this willingly. He was set up by Hicks and Gillette. They pulled back and let Rafa try to compete without money. Everyone started debating his transfer policy.. it was a total sham. They even got Hodgson Why! to go back to traditional LFC values NO!!. TO MAKE THEM LOOK GOOD or at least focus the blame elsewhere.

Reina
Enrique
Agger
Skrtel
Gerrard
Lucas
Suarez

They are our spine when fit. If we could add two players to that in the summer it would be great.

The problem with our current "spine" is that two of them (Gerrard and Agger), whilst tremendous on their day, are injury prone.

Agger has shown the difference he can make to our defence when fit this season, our defence was carrying us pretty much, early on, and helped cover our attacking weaknesses.

Gerrard has been on and off for a couple of seasons now, and to be regularly recovering match fitness and form has, IMO, led to a significant drop in his consistency and overall influence on games.

I didn't mention Lucas, as this is his first long lay off, and should hopefully not be a recurring problem.

The point being, is it healthy for a team to build on these foundations? The spine should be playing most matches, which is clearly not the case for some of them.

I like Court's idea about our youth players that came into the first team being some of the most important, I hope that eventually Kelly will fill one of those roles, and perhaps the likes of Suso and Sterling could make it one day, but next season would be too soon IMO.

The summer signings will be crucial (obviously) in seeing which players Kenny sees as essential parts of our best eleven.

This is the problem these players were not replaced,(Alonso and Torres) were never replaced thats the main problem for me !!!

But to be fair, how often do you get to have players like Alonso and Torres?

I don't think we can exactly replicate the same spine we had in 2008/2009 but we certainly have to have a new one with the players we currently have and we could potentially have.

I hope Kenny starts playing some of the youngsters like Suso and Sterling more often so we know whether they'd be able to do a job for us next season, rather than having to spend money on other more established players to do the same job in the summer.

Our current spine probably consists of Reina, Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Gerrard and Suarez but Reina has been having an off season, Agger is injured half a season and so was Gerrard, Lucas missed more than half of the campaign, Suarez, while brilliant will not get us the goals Torres did and Skrtel is the only left who has been what a spine player should be but has his form dipped a little ever since Carra came back beside him.

I think Aquilania was a direct replacement for Alonso or maybe Javi Martinez was after being linked with us  but Rafa could only work on installments for player purchases and Roma owed us for Riise i think?

Torres has never been replaced and will be hard to for some while as strikers come at a premium ask city but that does not mean we cannot unearth a gem somewhere and take a gamble on a rookie.

Arbeloa was also a hard act to follow who was very versatile and good at his job and Mascherano too is missed but we have Lucas who compensates loosing Mascherano but it also stops Lucas being an Attacking midfielder we know he can be.

Impossible to comment without the discussion descending into a Rafa love in, so I won't bother. I will only say that it is telling that a team shot pre one of our best performances in the last 20 years is posted up as an example of what a great team we were. Where's the team shot before we drew 0-0 at Hull the following season?

I actually wished Aquilani was given a chance. From some of his games in 2009/2010, I actually felt he did quite okay. I know many feel he can't tackle and neither he is positionally spot on like Alonso (who compensates his lack of tackling ability with positional awareness) but Aquilani has flair when going forward, something we've been lacking in the last couple of years and especially this season.

Torres was one of a kind when he was here as he fitted so well with the club but I agree, we could still find a finisher. Wouldn't mind someone like Llorente or Villa here!

Arbeloa was almost reliable pretty much every game and he was consistent but I guess our right back position is the least of the problems at the moment when Kelly and Johnson are both fit.

Yep, Lucas looks better as a guy who actually bombs forward as well. I remember Mascherano did go forward a few times but he had Xabi who knew where to be (at the back) when Masch bombed forward. It was like, one go up, one stay back. Maybe getting someone to do the destroyer job at the back would help but of course, it leaves more competition between Gerrard, Lucas, Henderson, Adam, Shelvey and so on.

Impossible to comment without the discussion descending into a Rafa love in, so I won't bother.

 I will only say that it is telling that a team shot pre one of our best performances in the last 20 years is posted up as an example of what a great team we were. Where's the team shot before we drew 0-0 at Hull the following season?

You just did! 

Where's the team shot before we drew 0-0 at Hull the following season?

Probably the same place where our current footballing identity is.  Nowhere to be seen.

And that was at the end of our former manager's FIFTH season in charge.

It would seem the old adage "You win some, you lose some." is pretty universal when it comes to wheeler dealing in transfers. Who can forget...

Josemi
Nunez
González
Morientes
Babel
Pennant
Keane
Paletta
Riera
Degen
Dossena
Aquilani

There's about £85m quids worth of flop right there.

It would seem the old adage "You win some, you lose some." is pretty universal when it comes to wheeler dealing in transfers. Who can forget...

Josemi
Nunez
González
Morientes
Babel
Pennant
Keane
Paletta
Riera
Degen
Dossena
Aquilani

There's about £85m quids worth of flop right there.

Good point, it's all easier to judge upon with the benefit of hindsight.

Bridge players, not good enough for a top side but good enough to build on. Players good in one league but poor in another. Players with the potential to rip leagues apart but can't make the final step.

Every manager is made or broken on the development of his players, rare are the clubs where the finished article are bought and brought together. And even City are proving that this approach isn't infallible!

Poor players were bought and sold to create the 2009 "spine", and even worse ones came and went in an attempt to plug the debt-created holes afterwards.

No manager is flawless, but I trust Kenny to bring us back to the top. We'll see where we are in a few years, hopefully admiring some of our future line-ups in the same way we look at this one.

I personally feel that Henderson could indeed become a spine player, he for me would be the player who would make us tick in an attacking sense in future games, if he develops to his potential than him and Lucas in the center of midfield could be a great partnership.

Would like to think Carroll could become a spinal figure for the team but in all honesty i do not feel he will be given enough time by the club to develop, because of the price he was bought for. Logically the more you spend the more you expect of a player and the shorter time you give them, but he needs time in my opinion.

Coates i believe could become another player who is essential to the spine of our team, in two to three years time, i can see him taking over from Agger at center back maybe accompanied by Kelly or even Skrtel still, who knows, but for me he will become essential to our spine.

I would like to see Kenny bring in a proven goalscorer if Andy is not going to be given time, someone who will score goals, tap ins, headers, volleys anything, as long as they put the chances away. If we can gain a uprising or proven goal scorer to our team then i feel our spine in 3/5 years time will be just as strong as the one of Alonso & Co if not even stronger.

IKWT

I personally feel that Henderson could indeed become a spine player, he for me would be the player who would make us tick in an attacking sense in future games, if he develops to his potential than him and Lucas in the center of midfield could be a great partnership.

This is something I'd really like to see. We all know Henderson has a good skill set and great potential, he just hasn't shown his true ability yet. I said this in his player thread a few weeks ago, but I think he can develop into a deep-lying playmaker to partner Lucas. We know he isn't a RM, but we've also seen that he's not very good as a N0. 10, either. That throughball he played to Downing against City in the league got me thinking him playing deeper is his future.  But, he definitely needs to work on his aggression and tackling, though, and I would like to see him make the best of his full range of passing (it's not that he can't, it's that he just always plays it safe).