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      "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."

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      srslfc
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #207: Oct 06, 2013 07:41:15 pm
      I still haven't got to see the game yesterday but by most people's accounts Jordan done a good job beside Stevie and his energy and pressing of the ball was impressive.

      I still think that Lucas is the better out and out DM between him and Gerrard but I wouldn't mind a two of Gerrard and Hendo as a better 'blend' in there especially with Coutinho back soonish to add the creativity.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #208: Oct 06, 2013 08:04:49 pm
      Si Henderson and Gerrard were awful in the first 30 minutes yesterday, they had no synergy, didn't press together, didn't cover for each other and the holes in the middle were absolutely massive. Against anyone better than Palace who hadn't scored in 400minutes or something, we would have been punished heavily.

      I don't think Henderson put in a tackle in the entire game, neither did Gerrard from memory. The one occasion I saw him try to press his opponent they went round him and had a superb chance and space. I am stunned by the credit he's getting on the back of that performance, it wasn't even close to being good enough to fill that position. They couldn't step up, they couldn't press up together and the forward passes were none existent from Henderson, he was said by Tadders I think "a good side to side midfielder" :D

      Neither came through the game with great credit, when you watch Malumbu and Yacob today against Arsenal you see the difference and that's honestly not being sarcastic.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #209: Oct 06, 2013 08:10:55 pm
      Si Henderson and Gerrard were awful in the first 30 minutes yesterday, they had no synergy, didn't press together, didn't cover for each other and the holes in the middle were absolutely massive. Against anyone better than Palace who hadn't scored in 400minutes or something, we would have been punished heavily.

      I don't think Henderson put in a tackle in the entire game, neither did Gerrard from memory. The one occasion I saw him try to press his opponent they went round him and had a superb chance and space. I am stunned by the credit he's getting on the back of that performance, it wasn't even close to being good enough to fill that position. They couldn't step up, they couldn't press up together and the forward passes were none existent from Henderson, he was said by Tadders I think "a good side to side midfielder" :D

      Neither came through the game with great credit, when you watch Malumbu and Yacob today against Arsenal you see the difference and that's honestly not being sarcastic.

      Henderson made 7 tackles, actually. More than anyone else on the team.

      http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/720015/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2013-2014-Liverpool-Crystal-Palace
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #210: Oct 06, 2013 08:17:56 pm

      I'd love to know what those 7 "tackles" were because from I watched he never once competed for a 50/50, he never went ground once so I'm at a loss what they're classing as "tackles" there.


      Just watched a highlight reel of Hendo's performance, he went to ground once in the 70th minute and 1 more that you could possibly class as a tackle late in the game, even that would be pushing it. As oppose to that he simply got in the way of passes rather than tackled, if they're classing them as tackles I'm amazed there aren't so many more for each player.


      Jordan Henderson vs Crystal Palace
      « Last Edit: Oct 06, 2013 08:33:15 pm by KopiteLuke »
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #211: Oct 06, 2013 08:30:00 pm
      I'd love to know what those 7 "tackles" were because from I watched he never once competed for a 50/50, he never went ground once so I'm at a loss what they're classing as "tackles" there.

      Not sure how it is technically defined by Opta, but I think it's something along the lines of taking/(even poking) the ball away from the player in possession. I don't know if you have to regain complete control for it to count.

      And as you can see in this video, Henderson did dispossess the opposition a lot yesterday and he was involved in a few 50/50s as well. Also, he does in fact go to ground ;)

      Jordan Henderson vs Crystal Palace
      YANK_LFC_FAN
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #212: Oct 06, 2013 09:59:56 pm
      I dont see Gerrard as being detrimental or even costing us a goal. I still think he is clearly capable of being captain. He plays 90 minutes, has made great passes, tackles, he scored against Palace and has done what a captain should do. Yes, he has slowed and at times his play may be less than perfect, but he does his job and he is the Captain of the team at the top of the EPL table. So, enough said.
      BKLFC
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #213: Oct 07, 2013 05:00:24 am
      I think Stevie needs to be getting a better conversion rate for his free kicks otherwise Brendan needs to tell him to be the old Gerrard bursting forward.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #214: Oct 07, 2013 05:07:47 am
      Si Henderson and Gerrard were awful in the first 30 minutes yesterday, they had no synergy, didn't press together, didn't cover for each other and the holes in the middle were absolutely massive. Against anyone better than Palace who hadn't scored in 400minutes or something, we would have been punished heavily.

      I don't think Henderson put in a tackle in the entire game, neither did Gerrard from memory. The one occasion I saw him try to press his opponent they went round him and had a superb chance and space. I am stunned by the credit he's getting on the back of that performance, it wasn't even close to being good enough to fill that position. They couldn't step up, they couldn't press up together and the forward passes were none existent from Henderson, he was said by Tadders I think "a good side to side midfielder" :D

      Neither came through the game with great credit, when you watch Malumbu and Yacob today against Arsenal you see the difference and that's honestly not being sarcastic.


      I think you need to get down to specsavers lad.







      Beerbelly
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #215: Oct 07, 2013 05:14:19 am
      Not sure how it is technically defined by Opta, but I think it's something along the lines of taking/(even poking) the ball away from the player in possession. I don't know if you have to regain complete control for it to count.

      And as you can see in this video, Henderson did dispossess the opposition a lot yesterday and he was involved in a few 50/50s as well. Also, he does in fact go to ground ;)

      Jordan Henderson vs Crystal Palace


      He also pressed and passed the ball forward, contrary to popular myth.


      He had a very good game.


      There's none so blind as those who cannot see.
      unwashedmasses
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #216: Oct 07, 2013 05:54:10 am
      There's none so blind as those who cannot see.

      Not to be the idiom police but you're mistake has cocked up the meaning there big time.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #217: Oct 07, 2013 06:31:04 am

      I think you need to get down to specsavers lad.









      Not at all 'belly. So from memory I missed 1 sliding challenge and 1 half tackle, for a defensive midfielder those stats are not good against Crystal Palace at home.

      Continue banging the Henderson for DM drum 'belly because while you may feel justification for your "specsavers" jibe, the proper judgement on who actually needs to reassess their criteria for a good display in that position will only come when we face someone of any substance and all this "the answer" to our midfield issues will unfortunately be blown out of the water.

      Henderson is no more "the answer" to the defensive midfield position next to Gerrard than a bucket would have been "the answer" when the titanic was sinking.
      BKLFC
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #218: Oct 07, 2013 06:37:42 am
      I agree with Kopiteluke, whilst I agree Hendo had a great game against Palace and with all due respect to Palace, when we are playing top top opposition we need top top players. And Hendo who has improved no doubt still needs time to become that top top player.
      BKLFC
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #219: Oct 07, 2013 06:42:13 am
      On topic please this is the we need to talk about Gerrard.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #220: Oct 07, 2013 10:07:45 am
      Not to be the idiom police but you're mistake has cocked up the meaning there big time.


      It's just as well you're not trying to be the idiom police then.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #221: Oct 07, 2013 10:12:24 am
      Beerbelly
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #222: Oct 07, 2013 10:23:40 am
      Not at all 'belly. So from memory I missed 1 sliding challenge and 1 half tackle, for a defensive midfielder those stats are not good against Crystal Palace at home.

      Continue banging the Henderson for DM drum 'belly because while you may feel justification for your "specsavers" jibe, the proper judgement on who actually needs to reassess their criteria for a good display in that position will only come when we face someone of any substance and all this "the answer" to our midfield issues will unfortunately be blown out of the water.

      Henderson is no more "the answer" to the defensive midfield position next to Gerrard than a bucket would have been "the answer" when the titanic was sinking.


      I'm not banging a drum for Henderson at DM. To be clear I'm banging the drum that Henderson should at least be given another chance at CM. I believe (if you have to insist on a DM) that Gerrard could do that job, or at least sit deeper and dictate the game from there where as Henderson would be, as seen yesterday the box to box midfielder this Liverpool midfield have missed since Gerrard's legs have slowed down. Alas, I don't think he will get the chance to play there against Newcastle because Rodgers will play the immobile crab Lucas in that position. Just watch us lose territorial possession with Gerrard and Lucas.

      Righting off Henderson's performance yesterday because it was Palace is nothing short of ridiculous. Perhaps we should right off Sturridge and Suarez's performance too, and chalk off both their goals?


      In short, I'd like to give him another chance to settle in that position against a myriad of teams because he looked very assured in his natural position against lowly Palace.
      « Last Edit: Oct 07, 2013 10:42:24 am by Beerbelly »
      bigmick
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #223: Oct 07, 2013 10:35:17 am
      I'm not a fan of Henderson particularly, but at least he brings some energy to it. He is a far better foil for our best holding midfielder by miles (Gerrard) than Lucas. It's as simple as that really, from now on Lucas only gets in my team if Gerrard isn't available.
      s@int
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #224: Oct 07, 2013 10:37:37 am
      Henderson completed 92% of his passes
      Gerrard completed 87% of his passes

      Henderson made 100% of his tackles 7 out of 7
      Made the most blocks (2)

      For someone who is adapting to a new role I don't think he did too badly. He showed a welcome energy in a position where it has been a while since we have seen much. Kept possession, made a few good clearances (4) and while I wouldn't say he is a great or even enthusiastic tackler, he won 7 out of 7.

      http://eplindex.com/41802/player-performance-analysis-jordan-henderson-crystal-palace.html

       

      Beerbelly
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #225: Oct 07, 2013 10:44:51 am
      Henderson completed 92% of his passes
      Gerrard completed 87% of his passes

      Henderson made 100% of his tackles 7 out of 7
      Made the most blocks (2)

      For someone who is adapting to a new role I don't think he did too badly. He showed a welcome energy in a position where it has been a while since we have seen much. Kept possession, made a few good clearances (4) and while I wouldn't say he is a great or even enthusiastic tackler, he won 7 out of 7.

      http://eplindex.com/41802/player-performance-analysis-jordan-henderson-crystal-palace.html


      Yes, agreed S@int.


      On that performance, he's worthy of another chance in central midfield IMO.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #226: Oct 07, 2013 10:49:14 am
      I thought Hendo did quite well, he seems more confident on the ball as swell and seems to be looking forward a lot more instead always looking to gid rid as soon as possible. Yes there are tougher test to come but to say he was sh*t is streching it a bit, I assume KopiteLuke was watching the same match as me, I suppose it's all about opinions. Not sure if he's the long term answer but I can only go on the game where he played in that role and say I though he had a good game.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #227: Oct 07, 2013 10:53:43 am
      I thought Hendo did quite well, he seems more confident on the ball as swell and seems to be looking forward a lot more instead always looking to gid rid as soon as possible. Yes there are tougher test to come but to say he was sh*t is streching it a bit, I assume KopiteLuke was watching the same match as me, I suppose it's all about opinions. Not sure if he's the long term answer but I can only go on the game where he played in that role and say I though he had a good game.


      I thought that too mate. He's never looked so assured.


      I can't see into the future either, so I don't have a clue whether he'll be the long term answer but on merit he's surely worth a go, considering what we've seen from midfield this season, thus far.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #228: Oct 07, 2013 11:00:26 am

      I'm not banging a drum for Henderson at DM. To be clear I'm banging the drum that Henderson should at least be given another chance at CM. I believe (if you have to insist on a DM) that Gerrard could do that job, or at least sit deeper and dictate the game from there where as Henderson would be, as seen yesterday the box to box midfielder this Liverpool midfield have missed since Gerrard's legs have slowed down. Alas, I don't think he will get the chance to play there against Newcastle because Rodgers will play the immobile crab Lucas in that position. Just watch us lose territorial possession with Gerrard and Lucas.

      Righting off Henderson's performance yesterday because it was Palace is nothing short of ridiculous. Perhaps we should right off Sturridge and Suarez's performance too, and chalk off both their goals?


      In short, I'd like to give him another chance to settle in that position against a myriad of teams because he looked very assured in his natural position against lowly Palace.

      So in this comment you go from saying he's better in the second (box-to-box) midfield position and would prefer Gerrard to play the DM midfielder, then you claim he was shown in a better light in his natural position? Can't have it both ways.

      For my take on it, Henderson's best position would be the box-to-box player you describe, unfortunately he doesn't have the creativity or goal threat to actually make that position his own, if he did then he could perhaps develop into a useful player there. Similarly the same problem arises when you try to fit him in the defensive midfield role, because he doesn't have the strength, tackling ability or positional sense to fill that role effectively against anything attack with any teeth. To further demonstrate this watch our games when we've played Henderson and Allen in there, possibly our worst performances in central midfield in my recent memory.

      This 7 tackle thing keeps cropping up though and from what the youtube vid shows you is there are not 7 "tackles" there are 5 blocks, 1 tackle and 1 in between, so be kind and say 2 tackles. If a block of a pass is now considered a tackle then I'm sorry I completely disagree with that description and full-backs must be doing well with their number of "tackles" per game from all the crosses they "tackle".

      Also your assertion that we "lose territory" with "the immobile crab Lucas" couldn't be further from the truth in the first half of all our games, he's actually been winning possession on the edge of the opposition on many occasion. I don't know if you expect him to be winning possession in their box but there isn't much more territory for him to win than that. In the 2nd half against Palace we dropped deeper and deeper too and in fact that suited Henderson better because the game became congested around him and he wasn't caught out of position as much. When the game was stretched in the first half due to us attacking more he was caught completely cold on a good few occasions and was simply chasing shadows. The fact that Palace don't have nearly enough in their team to cause proper problems for our excellent 3 central defenders should not in anyway excuse the faults that were occurring in front of them. I also hold Gerrard responsible for this too by the way.

      It would be very interesting to see what would come of playing Lucas with Henderson because I do think Gerrard is escaping a lot of criticism that is being shipped onto his midfield partners.

      As for the Suarez and Sturridge statement, irrelevant because they've proven it against better opposition, the exact thing part of my argument against Henderson is based on.

      It is also interesting to note that your assertion that Rodgers will resort to Lucas as soon as he's available. Either you believe you know better than our Manager or you accept that you're wrong, because I'm sure Lucas will come straight into the side too and rightly so.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: "We Need To Talk About Gerrard."
      Reply #229: Oct 07, 2013 11:03:20 am
      I thought Hendo did quite well, he seems more confident on the ball as swell and seems to be looking forward a lot more instead always looking to gid rid as soon as possible. Yes there are tougher test to come but to say he was sh*t is streching it a bit, I assume KopiteLuke was watching the same match as me, I suppose it's all about opinions. Not sure if he's the long term answer but I can only go on the game where he played in that role and say I though he had a good game.

      I never said he was sh*t, no reason to put words in my mouth. I said he and Gerrard were awful for the first 30 minutes. I actually said that Henderson got better as the game went on and his undoubted relentless energy came into effect when the Palace side began to tire. Nobody is doubting he's an accomplished sideways passer of the ball, rarely loses possession, these are things I'd expect as a bare minimum to even be considered a squad player at this club.


      As for "looking forward a lot more" that's your opinion, I think he's scared to take any risk and rarely passes forward unless the player is in masses amounts of space and in those examples the movement should be credited as much as the pass. It's a very easy skill to pass to someone in masses amounts of space, so "looking forward a lot more" we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

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