We're coping without them, but has the loss of Gerrard/Sturridge made us better?

One or two people are kind of asking the question jokingly with the captain "will he get back in the team?". The more we play well without him though, the question will be asked more seriously. Although it hasn't really been touched on as of yet, it's surely only a matter of time before somebody asks whether we have benefitted from being able to return to more authentic 4-3-3 in Sturridge's absence. If we go to Man City and/or Chelsea and get good results, there will out loud rumblings aplenty. So what has happened to us in the absence of two of our best players, do they get back in when fit?

 
 Clearly Henderson in particular has really stepped up to the plate in the absence of Stevie (and made a few of us look like right mugs into the process), but Allen has grasped his opportunity too. Lucas is holding it together behind them better than he was earlier in the season, and the three of them look a decent unit. I think the addition of Allen for Stevie has certainly given us more running power and we are able to press higher and better, I don't think anyone would dispute that either. Another thing which I don't think many would take issue with is that on the evidence of what we're seeing, the midfield has a better balance at the moment than it has for much of the season. If this last few games has shown anything, I think it's been demonstrated  clearly that we look a better team if it includes EITHER Gerrard or Lucas, but not both. On this question, and I know many will disagree, I'd bring Gerrard in as a straight swap for Lucas when he's fit. For me there's no comparison, Gerrard comes in as the sitter. For those who say "but he doesn't have the discipline" I say well he'll have to find it (I actually believe he has anyway) but he certainly doesn't have the legs to play either the Allen or Henderson role, so he must compete with Lucas for the sitter spot.

 Up top I think Danny Sturridge probably needs us to get European football even more than Luis Suarez does. By that I mean, at least then he's going to get a game a fair few times as an authentic striker. As it is, we definitely look a better side in my view if we play Brendans favoured 4-3-3, and as such if Danny is going to get a regular start he is going to have to compete with Stirling. Even that won't be easy as Raheem is becoming the player we always thought he would, but much as he doesn't like it Danny is going to have to learn to dovetail with Luis and play a little wider than he'd prefer.

 It's a nice problem to have. Ultimately although both Gerrard and Sturridge are very good players, both are IMHO going to have to slightly adopt the way they play in order to not only get in the team, but also to be of maximum benefit to it when they do play.

I was thinking the same about Stevie as regard to playing holding midfielder.  I believe he does have the discipline these days to play in that position - and I also believe he will be excellent in the holding role for a few years to come.  For me, Lucas is the man to drop to the bench. However, what's really positive for us is that, after years of lacking depth, we are finally beginning to have some selection options/headaches.  I think Suso may be back next year to add to this headache, and Ibe could also step up over the next year or two.  These are exciting times, and if the next couple of transfer windows are well managed, we may just be about to compete at the top again.  I'm enjoying being a Liverpool fan at this moment, and it's been a few years (2008/9) since I could say that.  Big credit to Rodgers for his part in that and, although an unpopular view, credit also goes to the owners who, I think, are running the club expediently. 

I think sometimes we as supporters want things a little too easy. We want a well defined first team rather than a strong first team squad all competing for places.

I think 4 good players competing for 3 places is much better for the team than having 3 automatic selections and one who is only considered good enough when we have injuries.

Same with Sturridge, he now has to compete for his place with Sterling or even Suarez, if Suarez loses focus or form.

We need a strong squad of good players all fighting for their position rather than accepting that certain players automatically get a first team recall as soon as they are fit.

Maybe it would make team selection harder for us as supporters (and for Brendan too) if Mignolet had to compete with Reina rather than Jones, but surely it would make us stronger? 

Similarly once Gerrard and Sturridge return it will make team selection harder, it may even make balancing the team more difficult but it should make the team BETTER. 

Too many players for too long have had an easy ride with little or no genuine competition for their places, but as Bob Dylan said .... Times they are a changin'.

We have good competition at CB, once Gerrard returns we will have (some) competition in midfield and with Sturridge's return reasonable competition up front.

Yes, we may get a few more team selections wrong, but as long as Brendan gets them right that's all that really matters.

One or two people are kind of asking the question jokingly with the captain "will he get back in the team?"

Why do you write this like you're walking on eggshells?  "oh, ha, ha, it's a joke, will Stevie get back in the team, ha, I don't actually think he shouldn't, you know, just kind of for fun, just wondering..."

Just say it, FFS, everyone and their mother can see it.  We play better without Stevie. 

There's no reason he should come back into the team right now even if he is fit tomorrow miraculously.

you don't have to be afraid to acknowledge what you see in front of your eyes.

I'm not walking on eggshells, why would I?. I think Stevie should get straight into the team when he's fit, so why would I "be afraid to acknowledge" that I don't think he should? Some people are more intent on doing some sort of bullsh!t phsyco analysis on the mindset of the poster who started the thread than they are actually discussing football. If some of the people on this forum were half as f*cking clever as they thought they were we could launch our own mission to Mars.   

I'm not walking on eggshells, why would I?. I think Stevie should get straight into the team when he's fit, so why would I "be afraid to acknowledge" that I don't think he should? Some people are more intent on doing some sort of bullsh!t phsyco analysis on the mindset of the poster who started the thread than they are actually discussing football. If some of the people on this forum were half as f*cking clever as they thought they were we could launch our own mission to Mars.

There certainly seems to be a fair share of Sigmund Freud's on here - and you seem to attract the wannabe psycho babble analysts. 

So there you have it - I think both Sturridge and Stevie will be accommodated when fit and (to the 'relief' of some); it will be Lucas who is dropped to accommodate Stevie.

I think you could be right however, I think if BR wanted just to put Stevie in the line up then he could put Lucas where Allen is at the moment. I believe Lucas could play that role well, whereas if Stevie plays it I think he will naturally drift back. Trouble is when he plays the holding role he tends to watch the ball. I think this issue has some potential to be bigger than people think. When the one time saviour of the team no longer has that role. Personally I would play him where Lucas plays and stick Lucas further forward. I would always try an accommodate Lucas in this team. Stevie is still a very good footballer and a talisman. If however we smash City at Eastlands by 5 goals I would offer him a coaching role.

Some people may criticise me for this but the way Suarez has been playing and acting I believe he deserves to have the armband permanently. Gerrard has always and will always be my favourite player but some of his performances as captain in recent times have made me think if the team would benefit from someone with a bit more energy? Kind of like when Stevie took over from Sami, he brought that energy that the other players feed off. Oh and I am not saying Gerrard has lost it before anyone decides to have a pop.

Some people may criticise me for this but the way Suarez has been playing and acting I believe he deserves to have the armband permanently. Gerrard has always and will always be my favourite player but some of his performances as captain in recent times have made me think if the team would benefit from someone with a bit more energy? is Kind of like when Stevie took over from Sami, he brought that energy that the other players feed off. Oh and I am not saying Gerrard has lost it before anyone decides to have a pop.

Giving Luis the armband does make sense and I mean no disrespect to Steven Gerrard when I say that.
 Stevie for his wish to extend his playing days with us obviously will have to be rested, in that situation I'm sure the great man could see the advantage to the club and the player in making Luis the regular skipper.
His status and attachment to LFC would be enhanced to the level of a living legend.

I for one think we do play better without Gerrard
But that doesn't mean we are a better team without him.

The problem doesn't lie with Gerrard the problem lie's with the other's
If the like's of Henderson Allen Lucas or whoever put in as much of a shift
when Gerrard was in the side we'd be an even better team.

The younger fitter player's should have the attitude i'll show this 'al codger when they play with Gerrard
That's the attitude he showed the like's of Ince & Redknapp when he was a teenager..

Reading this thread you'd have the impression Gerrard and Sturridge are out since eight games, and after a disastrous start of the season the reds suddenly managed some results due to that.

I mean, I'm as happy as anyone about Suarez's form and Hendo / Sterling / Allen / Lucas performances of late, but seriously, WTF with thinking two games (including one where Liverpool had a poor half) are a sufficient sample to say there's a big improvement and expect it will remain like that as long the criminal Gerrard and Sturridge don't return to the team ? Can't you at least wait for after City and Chelsea games, to see how "new Liverpool" performs against serious opposition ? 

And about Suarez permanently replacing Gerrard for captaincy is he even candidate ? It seems he thinks it's better for the team to say "there's only one captain it's Steven Gerrard" and to give the armband to vice-captain Daniel Agger as soon he enters the field, I wonder why some fans would want to add that pressure on Suarez and tensions in the team mid season (for when Gerrard retires, I agree, Luis if still here would be one to consider, but there is time).

"We" aren't "angling" at anything fella, behave yourself. The opening post spells out quite clearly what I'm getting at, and the thrust of it is more to do with whether "we" have benefitted more from the switches which have been forced upon us (particularly now "we" are back to 4-3-3, than anything else). I like reading your posts BBB, but like the rest of us sometimes you let yourself down. Unfortunately, here you have got entirely the wrong end of the stick and are being an @rse.

How is 'BBB' being an arse Mick? He has a perfectly valid point , unless of course you think his opinion or anyone else's for that matter doesn't match those of yours,
In which case you'll be the one being an Arse,

Merry Xmas


YNWA

How is 'BBB' being an arse Mick?

I think mick believes I'm being an arse because I'm suggesting he can't let an opportunity pass without mentioning how he believes Lucas is the weak link in midfield.

I don't know what came over me or how on earth I could have jumped to that conclusion so I apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick. 

Suggesting anyone is the "weak link" in midfield (or even up top for that matter) when we have just turned in two brilliant performances is the last thing on my mind. I'm a huge advocate of Danny Sturridge these days for instance, but it seems fairly clear to me that we look a better team with one striker not two. Equally, since Gerrard has been out of the team, only a fool would deny that the form of Henderson in particular has shot up, and also that our midfield as a unit looks better.

The question posed in the OP was quite simply do they get back into the team or not, and if they do, where and how would you have them play? There's no "not letting an opportunity pass" about it, and if it WAS the case that I was having a pop at Lucas and being called for it, I'd hold my hands up and admit it. It isn't the case though, just like it wasn't the case that I "introduced the 40 points at the halfway stage because I thought it helped my argument" a few weeks back. The same poster got a little slur in then which went un rectified, and the same thing has happened here with the silly response.


Fortunately, most people seem to have taken the OP in the spirit it is/was intended. It will become something of a moot point if we don't do well at Man City and Chelsea as everyone (including me no doubt) will be clamouring for the return of two of our better players. As it stands though, it is entirely legitimate when we are spanking the likes of Spurs 5-0 to ask whether we shouldn't just leave things as they are.

Still think Lucas-Allen looks the strongest CM pairing we have, when all are fit.  At home against so-called weaker opposition, it's not something I'd use and we do tend to, as Rodgers puts it, flip the triangle for those games and when all fit, we have a strength in depth in midfield that wasn't perceived by many before now. 

Still think Lucas-Allen looks the strongest CM pairing we have, when all are fit.  At home against so-called weaker opposition, it's not something I'd use and we do tend to, as Rodgers puts it, flip the triangle for those games and when all fit, we have a strength in depth in midfield that wasn't perceived by many before now. 

I think with Brendans 4-3-3 it makes more sense actually to talk about who is the best midfield three than the midfield pairing. As is stands at the moment, the current midfield three is the best looking combo we've had all season, I don't think anyone could deny that. The question going forward is could we improve on it with the personel available. I think we could, but I'm not as 1 million per cent certain as I was a few weeks back. What's changed the dynamic more than anything is the form of Henderson in particular and Allen to a slightly lesser extent. Both have rendered themselves undroppable in my view. Henderson with hios overall play, and Allen with his high pressing and mobility.

I think with Brendans 4-3-3 it makes more sense actually to talk about who is the best midfield three than the midfield pairing. As is stands at the moment, the current midfield three is the best looking combo we've had all season, I don't think anyone could deny that. The question going forward is could we improve on it with the personel available. I think we could, but I'm not as 1 million per cent certain as I was a few weeks back. What's changed the dynamic more than anything is the form of Henderson in particular and Allen to a slightly lesser extent. Both have rendered themselves undroppable in my view. Henderson with hios overall play, and Allen with his high pressing and mobility.

Can't agree with Allen being undroppable any more than I could agree with those that said they thought Lucas had a good game because they didn't see him against Cardiff.  Both, especially compared to Henderson, are eminently droppable depending on the situation.  Allen was poor against Cardiff, had a very heavy touch, but impressed me by realising that his passing game was off and proceeded to keep it simple and let other parts of his game flourish, such as his closing down and tackling.

Can't agree with Allen being undroppable any more than I could agree with those that said they thought Lucas had a good game because they didn't see him against Cardiff.  Both, especially compared to Henderson, are eminently droppable depending on the situation.  Allen was poor against Cardiff, had a very heavy touch, but impressed me by realising that his passing game was off and proceeded to keep it simple and let other parts of his game flourish, such as his closing down and tackling.

Sorry mate didn't explain myself very well. Henderson is "undroppable" at the moment because he is playing really well. Allen is "undroppable" IMHO because we haven't got a single other player in the whole squad who does what he does. Gerrard can't do it, Alberto can't do it, Lucas can't do it and I don't think Henderson can either. Ever since we've had two players in there with energy as opposed to one, we look a much better team in  my view, which is why at the moment I couldn't leave either out.

All that said, my guess is that when Gerrard is fit again Brendan will leave Allen out unless one of the three gets injured/suspended etc. I think Brendan also will leave Raheem out and bring Danny Sturridge in, but I do think he will ask him to play right and track back. Given the players reluctance in the past to do this, it'll be a test of the manager to see if he can get his idea accross. 

To ask whether we've become better without Sturridge is ridiculous, had it not been for him we won't have won any of the games before Suarez was back, not to mention him and Suarez picked up where they left off last season and were lethal once more before Sturridge got injured! If we'd have had Sturridge against Hull then no way would they have beaten us IMO, a team like Hull, no matter how good they were on the day, they wouldn't have handled both Suarez and Sturridge! No team with an attack like SAS are better without one half of it.

There were genuine concerns expressed, about our midfield performances, earlier on this season. The consensus being that the 'problem' lay with the personnel rather than formation.

Well, although it might just be a coincidence, the thing is, those earlier 'problems' seem to have disappeared.

The assumption being that the personnel, in situ, are doing a better job than those before them. If that is indeed the case - why change it?

To ask whether we've become better without Sturridge is ridiculous, had it not been for him we won't have won any of the games before Suarez was back, not to mention him and Suarez picked up where they left off last season and were lethal once more before Sturridge got injured! If we'd have had Sturridge against Hull then no way would they have beaten us IMO, a team like Hull, no matter how good they were on the day, they wouldn't have handled both Suarez and Sturridge! No team with an attack like SAS are better without one half of it.

I'm sorry you think it's "ridiculous" to suggest the team has a better balance with an authentic 4-3-3 than it did with a convoluted 3-5-2 or even 4-4-2. I think that's the point. It's not that Danny Sturridge isn't good enough to get into the team because he clearly is, it's whether he will be able to adapt his game to the current style or whether we ditch it in order to accommodate him.

You're quite right too, had it not been for Danny and his goals early in the season we wouldn't be where we are now. Were Suarez to do something daft again, at least we are safe in the knowledge that we can stick with the 4-3-3 and Danny is a brilliant alternative to the best player in the land. As it is though, for me I'd be reluctant to revert back to the 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 in order to accommodate Danny. I'd be telling him it's 4-3-3 and it's his job to make it work, from the right, with Suarez. "Ridiculous"? We'll see.

There were genuine concerns expressed, about our midfield performances, earlier on this season. The consensus being that the 'problem' lay with the personnel rather than formation.

Well, although it might just be a coincidence, the thing is, those earlier 'problems' seem to have disappeared.

The assumption being that the personnel, in situ, are doing a better job than those before them. If that is indeed the case - why change it?

Is the whole question. I personally don't think it's an "assumption" that we operate better as we are than we did previously, it's so much of an improvement that it's almost impossible to deny it. We've won our last four games very comfortably, the constant factors in that have been that EITHER Gerrard or Lucas have played and not both, and that BOTH Allen and Henderson have played. Also, it is absolutely impossible to deny that Henderson has played far better in the last two matches than he has in his whole Liverpool career. Coincidently, those were two matches in which Gerrard didn't play. Are the two linked? I personally don't think so no, but I totally get why people think there is something there.

Also, I think it is impossible to dispute that we look at our best with a 4-3-3. Hence the point about Danny Sturridge, clearly he doesn't get in in front of Suarez, so what do you do with him? 

I'm sorry you think it's "ridiculous" to suggest the team has a better balance with an authentic 4-3-3 than it did with a convoluted 3-5-2 or even 4-4-2. I think that's the point. It's not that Danny Sturridge isn't good enough to get into the team because he clearly is, it's whether he will be able to adapt his game to the current style or whether we ditch it in order to accommodate him.

You're quite right too, had it not been for Danny and his goals early in the season we wouldn't be where we are now. Were Suarez to do something daft again, at least we are safe in the knowledge that we can stick with the 4-3-3 and Danny is a brilliant alternative to the best player in the land. As it is though, for me I'd be reluctant to revert back to the 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 in order to accommodate Danny. I'd be telling him it's 4-3-3 and it's his job to make it work, from the right, with Suarez. "Ridiculous"? We'll see.

So do you have some inside knowledge or something because who's to say we would go back to 3-5-2 with both SAS starting? Also if you look back it was the defensive side of that formation that was having the problems, we were still scoring plenty of goals. They can both play without it going to 3-5-2. Even 4-4-2 like you say, why do you suddenly think that our current 4-3-3 wouldn't work as well with them both in the team? We played them both in a 4-3-3 last season and that was when our impressive run of results started! Apologies on using the Hull game as another example here, but when you look at that 4-3-3 we had Moses starting in it and he was so damn woeful he nearly raised the question of whether he is actually a footballer at all! When we have SAS in a 4-3-3 they still score a lot of goals and that's proven it works by the fact we have scored more goals than anybody else in 2013. IMO you should always play your strongest 11 and our strongest 11 includes both Suarez and Sturridge starting so yes he should go straight back into the team IMO, whether Gerrard should, well that's a different story because with him out at the moment this has been our most effective looking midfield for a while though should anyone make way I think it will be Allen because he done himself no favours in the 2nd half against Cardiff.

We have had no problems scoring goals for a year now and that's because SAS have been so lethal so when you combine them with Coutinho and an extremely impressive Henderson at the moment it can only be a good thing surely?

Our problems this season have been defensively but we have looked stronger without Gerrard, I remember him being arguably at fault for more than one of the goals we have let in this season! But then we all know he can be unplayable when he essentially seems to be in the mood so he is a very tricky one IMO, maybe him being on the bench instead of coming straight back into the team would push him on and make him start play both well and consistently again.

The only position for Gerrard now is at CB. And I'll be happy with him there, instead of nervous, sloppy Skrtel. As for Sturridge he's a central player so Suarez will take Sterlings position when Daniel is back fit. He played there at Ajax so no problem for Luis to adapt when our only recognized centre forward is leading the line again. Two arguably best Liverpool players simply must start when fit. Up to Rodgers to get a team balance right.