Several things wrong at our club and it starts at the top.

Which again disproves your point - Brendan has received more backing from the owners than Rafa did yet Rafa's team was better despite the "restrictions".

Yes Rafa's team was better because he spent the money on Quality in the first XI and slops on squad players, where as we''ve gambled on potential in the first XI and the squad players.

Brendan spent more so according to you he should have done far better.

He spent it to buy the best players he could - as did Rafa. All transfers are calculated gambles - it's just that Rafa was better at making those gambles. It's not as though Brendan has gone "i'll spend the money on worse players". You only know whether the transfer has worked a season or two after it is complete.

And what you fail to point out is that Rafa bought his fair share of second-string players too. We sold Crouch and Bellamy in order to fund Torres because we were never in the position to just buy world stars without restrictions. that;s why it took five years to assemble the team rathe rthan just buying it in the first transfer window.

Brendan spent more so according to you he should have done far better.

Where did I imply that ?

What I did Imply is, without the wage restrictions/transfer strategy, he may well have done far better.

He spent it to buy the best players he could

No he spent it on what he believed was the best players he could within a rigid transfer strategy/wage restrictions.

And what you fail to point out is that Rafa bought his fair share of second-string players too. We sold Crouch and Bellamy in order to fund Torres because we were never in the position to just buy world stars without restrictions. that;s why it took five years to assemble the team rathe rthan just buying it in the first transfer window.

I'm not saying he didn't buy his fair share of second string players or that it didn't take 4/5 years to build his squad, but when he did build his squad, it had 8 really strong players that would have walked into most squads in Europe....

Can you say the same about our squad after 4 years huh ?

Can any one on this board point me to 4 players in our current squad that would walk into just about any squad in Europe ?

Nope me neither, its a lack of quality, quality that costs money in terms of transfer fee's and wages that's hampering us, lets not kid ourselves.

Of course we can spend money on quality players FFS we have the 7th most expensive assembled squad in Europe. We spent more than Arsenal and Chelsea this year. £300M during the tenure of Rodgers.
We have just chosen the wrong players, Rodgers identifies the players he wants and definetely got this year, so if you want to blame anyone there is your target.

Show me the real outstanding quality players we've spent money on mate, as to be honest I don't see them.

I don't doubt we've spent money, but we've spunked it up the wall, Suarez was genuine Quality, Benteke is not, Agger was genuine Quality, Lovren is not.......

Buy mid table players and it won't be long before you become a mid table club.

Show me the real outstanding quality players we've spent money on mate, as to be honest I don't see them.

I don't doubt we've spent money, but we've spunked it up the wall, Suarez was genuine Quality, Benteke is not, Agger was genuine Quality, Lovren is not.......

Buy mid table players and it won't be long before you become a mid table club.

I agree, I thought thats what my post intimated.

Brendan had more money and less restrictions than Rafa.

Rafa had better quality players.

So the problem is being able to pick better quality players not the fact that he hasn't been adequately backed financially.

Giving him twice the money doesn't improve his judgement.

I don't doubt we've spent money, but we've spunked it up the wall, Suarez was genuine Quality, Benteke is not, Agger was genuine Quality, Lovren is not.......

Buy mid table players and it won't be long before you become a mid table club.

Point proven - Suarez came from a "minor" league. Agger came from Brondby. "mid table" transfers.

There were far bigger and more expensive stars we could have bought but we didn't - and still succeded with those transfers.

So the problem is being able to pick better quality players not the fact that he hasn't been adequately backed financially.

Read the opening post, no one is doubting FSG have backed him financially its been said in the opening POST.

The argument is based on wage restrictions/performance related contracts, a transfer strategy that includes players of a certain age group with potential and resale value.

Were already at a disadvantage competing with Chelsea, City, Arsenal and UTD and were putting ourselves at an even greater disadvantage by limiting the pool of the available players by being rigid in our transfer strategy/wage structure.

Is it really that F***ing hard to grasp ?

You're arguing that we should have bought proven, top quality stars on unrestricted wages and using mid-table stars on average wages (Suarez/Agger), Academy players (Gerrard) and low-wage youth prospects (Sterling) as examples to support your case.

What you are saying doesn't make sense.

Additionally, you are not "limiting the pool" because spunking the transfer fee on one world-class star - even if they decide to come - is a major problem when you can't sell them on if they flop.

In the example I gave of Borini, we were able to recoup a lot of our transfer money for him which "opens up the pool" in terms of the money available to the manager in the next transfer window.

I hate agreeing with HB      but he has a point we cant compete with the likes of City and United so we have to be better with how we spend our money, Torres, Suarez, Masch etc were not super stars when we bought them.

Look at some one like Griezmann at Atleti £24M........Lallana £25M...........who would you rather have?

Milner or Xabi ( he would have jumped at the chance of coming back) even Pjanic?

We are sh*t at scouting for a long time and its only got worse recently.

You're arguing that we should have bought proven, top quality stars on unrestricted wages and using mid-table stars (Suarez/Agger), Academy players (Gerrard) and low-wage youth prospects (Sterling) as examples.

What you are saying doesn't make sense.

Ha ha ha what a load of bollocks.

Gerrard (the Academy player) was tipped as something special from the off and fulfilled his potetial and at the time when we were great was an England International, Club Captain, Champions League winner and classed as World class by his peers.

Suarez came from the biggest Dutch club Ajax after scoring 74 goals in 97 league appearances, was already and established international and has since gone on to show his world class status and clean up with Barcelona eclipsing both Neymar and Messi whilst he went about it.

Agger was already a fully established Danish international centerback, who had teams like Barca courting his signature.

Torres, Suarez, Masch etc were not super stars when we bought them.

Only in England, they weren't stars.

Torres was Atletico captain and a Spanish interntional.

Suarez had banged in 74 goals in 97 league appearances at Ajax and was a Uruguay interntional.

Mascherano was an Argentine Interntional who's rights were owned by a ermmm third party, being whored around Europe, If Italian football hadn't been in despair at the time, both Tevez and Mascherano wouldn't have landed in the premiership at West Ham.

Only in England, they weren't stars.

Torres was Atletico captain and a Spanish interntional.

Suarez had banged in 74 goals in 97 league appearances at Ajax and was a Uruguay interntional.

Mascherano was an Argentine Interntional who's rights were owned by a ermmm third party, being whored around Europe.

Yes but they were not the super stars that they became and hence were in our price range, that is the sort of player we have difficult targetting at the moment just below the global established super star status.

You're still missing the point.

All those players are quality but none of them were top drawer stars on top wages when they came to the club so using them as examples supports my case not yours.

The best defenders in 2005 were Puyol, Maldini and Lahm. If we had bought those and they did well you could have used them as examples.

But we didn't - we bought Agger from Brondby.

In other words you DON'T need to buy proven world-class stars on top wages to succeed - you need to know how to spot and develop the best players. Same goes for Gerrard, Suarez and Sterling.

In other words you DON'T need to buy proven world-class stars on top wages to succeed - you need to know how to spot and develop the best players. Same goes for Gerrard, Suarez and Sterling.

I've never said proven world-class stars on top wages though have I ?

I've said proven quality, quality costs money in terms of transfer fee's and wages.

All the players you've mentioned had that 'Quality' you could see it in them from the off, unlike some of our recent acquisitions.

I've never said proven world-class stars on top wages though have I ?

I've said proven quality, quality costs money in terms of transfer fee's and wages.

All the players you've mentioned had that 'Quality' you could see it in them from the off, unlike some of our recent acquisitions.

Ah - the penny has dropped finally.

It's what we have been saying all along - the problem is identifying quality players.

Ah - the penny has dropped finally.

It's what we have been saying all along - the problem is identifying quality players.

Here's a bit of perspective for you, in 2006 when we signed Agger who was already a Danish International and voted Danish talent of the year 3 or 4 years off the bounce, can't remember excatly which but one of the two, he was 22 years old and on £52k a week, 6 years ago in 2009 at 25 year old he signed a contract extension to the tune of £80k a week, in 2012 at 28 year old he signed another contract extension £120k a week.

Dejan Lovren in comparisons at 26 year old in 2015 is on £65k a week.

Here's a bit of perspective for you, in 2006 when we signed Agger who was already a Danish International and voted Danish talent of the year 3 or 4 years off the bounce, can't remember excatly which but one of the two, he was 22 years old and on £52k a week, 6 years ago in 2009 at 25 year old he signed a contract extension to the tune of £80k a week, in 2012 at 28 year old he signed another contract extension £120k a week.

Dejan Lovren in comparisons at 26 year old in 2015 is on £65k a week.

Notwithstanding the fact that Lovren in his last couple of matches and for much of Liverpool career has been over-paid, the point you make is a perfectly fair and reasonable one mate.

It's what we have been saying all along - the problem is identifying quality players.

Because our scouting sucks and has largely been crap for over a decade.

Anyone remember that Liverpool can be the Dortmund of England thread? Dortmund's scouting is top notch, ours is awful considering all the resources we have.

Notwithstanding the fact that Lovren in his last couple of matches and for much of Liverpool career has been over-paid, the point you make is a perfectly fair and reasonable one mate.

Quality players demand quality wages mate, not many will sign up for lower wages and performance related bonus's when they get better elsewhere.

The contracts we offer (wage structure) and transfer strategy (age, resale value etc) dictate our transfer policy.

That's why were signing Lovrens, instead of Aggers.

Really need quality players that have the desire to perform for the club, as much as improving their own bank balances, me reckons.

Reina £110k a week - Mignolet £35k a week.

Here's where it gets interesting, 75k a week (the difference in Reina's wage and Mignolets's) x 52 weeks in a year equals £3.9m, x 5 years of Mignolet contract and Reina off the wage bill equals £19.5m.

Mignolet cost £9m.

Agger £120k a week - Lovren £65k a week

Same rules apply 55k x 52 =£2.86m x 4 =11.44m

So if we add the £19.5 to the £11.44 = £30.94m or basically your Dejan Lovren £20m and Simon Mignolet £9m with their wages already accounted for.

#Moneyball.