Firmino and Holgate

You misread me mate. I never said he was cursing in Spanish. I was just replying to the post I quoted which made reference to the use of "puto" by South American crowds.

The use of "puta" (in Portuguese) and "puto" (in Spanish) mean different things.

And Firmino did not say "puta" in isolation, he said "filho da puta", which means "son of a bi*ch"

That answers my question, thank you very much

I see. thanks. So "Filho da puta" is Portuguese not Spanish? That's the bit that confused me.

Yes, "filho da puta" is Portuguese.

The same expression in Spanish would be "hijo de puta", something you might have heard about a million times if you watched Narcos.

It was "filho da puta", which means "son of a bi*ch", a very usual insult when people are angry.

Puta means bi*ch/whore, what Spanish speaking football supporters in South America yell is "puto", which is in this case something offensive towards gays, like "faggot" or something like that (not sure of the best translation).

But Brazil is not a Spanish speaking country, and supporters don't yell that here. They yell "bicha" which is quite different.

It was very easy to read Firmino's lips at the time, I actually burst out laughing because it was a very usual angry reaction from a Brazilian, "cê tá louco?" is something like "are you crazy?" but kinda meaning "have you lost your f**king mind?", as in "you must be nuts do to that to me" - there's a threat implied. "Filho da puta" is just that, son of a bi*ch, as common in Portuguese as "motherfucker" probably is in English.

What people have been saying is that Holgate supposedly reacts angrily at something said later, when you can't really see Firmino's lips. And there's a video somewhere on twitter that shows Holgate supposedly saying "he just called me nigger" to the referee.

Nigger isn't even a word in Portuguese, but of course Firmino could have changed from Portuguese to English at some point. No idea.

I do find it unlikely though.

Yes you were very quick to interpret what Firmino said,but up to that minute Holgate hadn't reacted, he was just eyeballing Firmino. Firmino said something we cannot see as Kenny's head is in the way, and that's when Holgate reacts. He drags at the Ref making a complaint. Later Holgate can be seen complaining to Lallana that Firmino had racially abused him.

The Ref decided to leave the incident and the push to the FA and he ran over to the 4th official to tell him that an allegation of racism had been made and that he would put it into his report and let the FA investigate. He expected the 4th official to explain that to the managers and that's the reason the Ref didn't act against Holgate.

If any angle or footage exists where it can be seen what Firmino says when Kenny blocks the view, then that would obviously clear up the incident.

But was the Ref right in deferering the decision to the FA. On the racism allegation...yes...but he should of booked or sent off holgate. The foul had nothing to do with the allegation. The Ref should of acted against Holgate. That decision not to act against Holgate was wrong and Everton benefitted from it.

If you watch replay of shove,seconds from colliding with the two Everton subs walking along touch line,that would have been interesting,also both Bobby and fans could have been injured,i said at the time Bobby should have been clever lay down fakeing injury milk the situation ,receive treatment,get the first aiders involved the crowd would have went mental putting ref under pressure to red card him,hard to say at time when Bobby was furious but sometimes you have to be clever at times.

Well said. The push is no ordinary push. Been watching football for nearly 4 decades and many matches not involving LFC and I haven't seen a push so nasty and wicked until this incident, except for the overated player on a karate kick. That could have injured Bobby badly and sent him to the treatment for many months or even ended his career prematurely. This holgate fellow must be banned for 10 matches for lack of professionalism on the pitch. If I were one of the fans when Bobby came crashing in I would take up a legal action against the club and to teach this holgate fellow to behave like how a professional footballer should do. 

If Stevie was sent off for a rash tackle and this holgate fellow did not even get a yellow card, is the ref fit for the PL. Not even a yellow card. I thought the quality of the refeerring in the PL is poor but I didn't realize it is that bad until this incident.

Yes you were very quick to interpret what Firmino said,but up to that minute Holgate hadn't reacted, he was just eyeballing Firmino. Firmino said something we cannot see as Kenny's head is in the way, and that's when Holgate reacts. He drags at the Ref making a complaint. Later Holgate can be seen complaining to Lallana that Firmino had racially abused him.

The Ref decided to leave the incident and the push to the FA and he ran over to the 4th official to tell him that an allegation of racism had been made and that he would put it into his report and let the FA investigate. He expected the 4th official to explain that to the managers and that's the reason the Ref didn't act against Holgate.

If any angle or footage exists where it can be seen what Firmino says when Kenny blocks the view, then that would obviously clear up the incident.

But was the Ref right in deferering the decision to the FA. On the racism allegation...yes...but he should of booked or sent off holgate. The foul had nothing to do with the allegation. The Ref should of acted against Holgate. That decision not to act against Holgate was wrong and Everton benefitted from it.

Why are you so insistent to act like there could be ulterior things at play here? Do you want Firmino to be charged with something?  You seem to be going out of your way to try and make a mountain out of a molehill. NONE of Holgate's teammates reacted the way he did at that point in time. That tells me that he was trying to make up or sell something that wasn't there. The referee was standing RIGHT THERE closer to Firmino than Holgate...he didn't react at all to what was said. That tells me that no one other than Firmino likely knew what Firmino was saying and Holgate was trying to sell something. Just drop it. It's nothing and nothing's going to come of it.

Yes you were very quick to interpret what Firmino said,but up to that minute Holgate hadn't reacted, he was just eyeballing Firmino. Firmino said something we cannot see as Kenny's head is in the way, and that's when Holgate reacts. He drags at the Ref making a complaint. Later Holgate can be seen complaining to Lallana that Firmino had racially abused him.

The Ref decided to leave the incident and the push to the FA and he ran over to the 4th official to tell him that an allegation of racism had been made and that he would put it into his report and let the FA investigate. He expected the 4th official to explain that to the managers and that's the reason the Ref didn't act against Holgate.

If any angle or footage exists where it can be seen what Firmino says when Kenny blocks the view, then that would obviously clear up the incident.

But was the Ref right in deferering the decision to the FA. On the racism allegation...yes...but he should of booked or sent off holgate. The foul had nothing to do with the allegation. The Ref should of acted against Holgate. That decision not to act against Holgate was wrong and Everton benefitted from it.

Holgate realised he fu**ed up and thought this was his way out of that situation. He’s no better than Evra. How many people has he accused of racism without proof?

It was "filho da puta", which means "son of a bi*ch", a very usual insult when people are angry.

Puta means bi*ch/whore, what Spanish speaking football supporters in South America yell is "puto", which is in this case something offensive towards gays, like "faggot" or something like that (not sure of the best translation).

But Brazil is not a Spanish speaking country, and supporters don't yell that here. They yell "bicha" which is quite different.

It was very easy to read Firmino's lips at the time, I actually burst out laughing because it was a very usual angry reaction from a Brazilian, "cê tá louco?" is something like "are you crazy?" but kinda meaning "have you lost your f**king mind?", as in "you must be nuts do to that to me" - there's a threat implied. "Filho da puta" is just that, son of a bi*ch, as common in Portuguese as "motherfucker" probably is in English.

What people have been saying is that Holgate supposedly reacts angrily at something said later, when you can't really see Firmino's lips. And there's a video somewhere on twitter that shows Holgate supposedly saying "he just called me nigger" to the referee.

Nigger isn't even a word in Portuguese, but of course Firmino could have changed from Portuguese to English at some point. No idea.

I do find it unlikely though.

thanks for explaining the puta/puto bit. I knew it was different languages, but thought the word was the same form, like with jugador to jogador or jugador in spanish and giacotre in Italian (and other such words). (and yes, F****t is how i've heard translated to English as well).

Why are you so insistent to act like there could be ulterior things at play here? Do you want Firmino to be charged with something?  You seem to be going out of your way to try and make a mountain out of a molehill. NONE of Holgate's teammates reacted the way he did at that point in time. That tells me that he was trying to make up or sell something that wasn't there. The referee was standing RIGHT THERE closer to Firmino than Holgate...he didn't react at all to what was said. That tells me that no one other than Firmino likely knew what Firmino was saying and Holgate was trying to sell something. Just drop it. It's nothing and nothing's going to come of it.

No, I'm just saying we can't see to interpret what Firmino is saying as Kenny's head is blocking the view.. I actually think Holgate was trying to divert the Ref from sending him off and I clearly say that the Ref should of acted against Holgate, regardless of the allegation.

Holgate realised he fu**ed up and thought this was his way out of that situation. He’s no better than Evra. How many people has he accused of racism without proof?

Well yes and in earlier posts I said the FA can't be trusted. I think Firmino just said something Holgate didn't understand and he was playing a dirty trick. But as I said the only way it can be proved one way or the other and for the FA to dismiss the case, is to get footage of what Firmino say's when Kenny blocks the view.

The FA probably won't give us the benefit of the doubt, so getting the full SP will be vital.

I keep reading that the referee went to the  4th official to report the claim of racism

I was at the match and didn't see all this til today because it just looked like a scuffle from  where I was but i read earlier that the ref was called over by the 4th official not the  other way around and one of the Everton coaching staff had been sent to the stands and that's why the ref was called over

I've not seen it on tv only the close ups on Bobby so I'm not sure if that was the case.

As for this? From what you can see, there is no case to answer and Diego has explained it perfectly. The only thing we can answer is what was said if anything when we can't see.

As Diego said though I would doubt very much that he switches from Portugese to English in the moment, he doesn't speak great English at all so in a moment like this to switch to a language you aren't comfortable with seems very unlikely to me.

I think it's all been confused in the heat of the moment, at least I really hope so as we don't need another issue like this over the club, and I love Bobby, I'd hate for him to be vilified over a reaction that wasn't caused by him whatsoever.

I really hope this is dealt with very swiftly though, Monday at the latest because no one needs this

Well here's where I'm at on the situation. If it's proven that Bobby said something, he needs the full force of the game's laws brought down on his head. Racism has no place in society. If Holgate is lying, then he's the one who should be facing a lengthy ban for bringing the game into such disrepute. What will probably happen is F**k all. Bobby will be found with no case to answer and the whole thing will be forgotten.

Well here's where I'm at on the situation. If it's proven that Bobby said something, he needs the full force of the game's laws brought down on his head. Racism has no place in society. If Holgate is lying, then he's the one who should be facing a lengthy ban for bringing the game into such disrepute. What will probably happen is f**k all. Bobby will be found with no case to answer and the whole thing will be forgotten.

If Bobby is found with no case to answer then I hope Holgate is brought to book, because if not, then anyone can claim the race card to deflect attention from their misdemeanour. Crying racism when none exists is as bad as racism itself and harms the kick racism out of football cause.
If Holgate persists with this and it’s found there is no case to answer he deserves everything that comes his way!

Absolute non-story. Don’t know how many times I’ve seen South Americans mouth ‘puta’ when fired up. Seems to be the go to word for them, much like ‘c**t’ up here in Scotland.

Thanks for linguistic lesson.

C**t the Go To Scottish word.

Sure the SNP will adopt that.
BTW shes been quiet lately whats wrong with her? She really does look like the small one in the Krankies.

Ref was right there, did nothing, so F**k all should come out of this apart from the world now knowing Holgate is a c**t.

https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/949757275211788288

https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/949757792403050497

https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/949757275211788288

https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/949757792403050497

So the only one that said n***er was Holgate?

It was "filho da puta", which means "son of a bi*ch", a very usual insult when people are angry.

Puta means bi*ch/whore, what Spanish speaking football supporters in South America yell is "puto", which is in this case something offensive towards gays, like "faggot" or something like that (not sure of the best translation).

But Brazil is not a Spanish speaking country, and supporters don't yell that here. They yell "bicha" which is quite different.

It was very easy to read Firmino's lips at the time, I actually burst out laughing because it was a very usual angry reaction from a Brazilian, "cê tá louco?" is something like "are you crazy?" but kinda meaning "have you lost your f**king mind?", as in "you must be nuts do to that to me" - there's a threat implied. "Filho da puta" is just that, son of a bi*ch, as common in Portuguese as "motherfucker" probably is in English.

What people have been saying is that Holgate supposedly reacts angrily at something said later, when you can't really see Firmino's lips. And there's a video somewhere on twitter that shows Holgate supposedly saying "he just called me nigger" to the referee.

Nigger isn't even a word in Portuguese, but of course Firmino could have changed from Portuguese to English at some point. No idea.

I do find it unlikely though.

also Puto or Putos in Portugal means Boy, Children

So Holgate heard him but ref didn't? Yeah, sure... hope you get a F***ing ban for lying and dragging Firmino's name through the mud.

Is it only me that Firmino is a little darker than the c**t

That's just silly. Nothing was picked up on TV mics and there's worse than that said (and lip read) just about every match to the referees.

This is all much ado about nothing. Holgate knew he'd pushed his luck (literally) and thought he was going to get a red so he tried to create a distraction. Pretty smart actually except when all's said and done hopefully he's going to get rung up for lying.

Of course it's silly but this is tge FA and they have their (double) standards to keep

Lip reader analyses Roberto Firmino and Mason Holgate footage as Liverpool offer full co-operation with FA racism probe

Liverpool have promised their full co-operation after the FA launched an investigation into the allegation by Everton defender Mason Holgate that he was racially abused by Liverpool striker ­Roberto Firmino.

The Anfield club have been left shocked by Holgate’s claim that their ­Brazil international delivered the most humiliating of insults after a first-half ­flare-up in Friday night’s televised ­Mersey derby.

A lip reader ­employed by the ­Sunday Mirror has studied video footage of the game and says that ­21-year-old ­Holgate twice claimed Firmino had used the “N-word”.

According to the lip reader, there was, ­however, no evidence from TV pictures to ­suggest that the Liverpool striker had said anything more ­offensive than a crude insult uttered in Portuguese.

FA disciplinary chiefs have ­confirmed that they are looking into the matter after the England Under-21 star ­complained to referee Bobby ­Madley.

And Liverpool are ready to do ­whatever it takes to get to the truth.

A club source said: “We are ­committed to treating any process with the respect it deserves.”

The race row could also be ­investigated by the Merseyside Police, following the decision to charge John Terry with a racially aggravated offence in October 2011 following ­comments made ­during Chelsea’s ­Premier League clash at QPR.

The police have yet to ­receive a complaint. http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/lip-reader-analyses-roberto-firmino-11809382

About point number 3 I was thinking that it could be a case where he uses that word, just like Suarez did, which is fairly common in Latin America and it’s not a racists thing to say, but I guess you guys in Brazil don’t use that word.

This is the thing, in that context negrito is 100% a spanish word and we speak portuguese in Brazil. 

The word "negrito" in portuguese has nothing to do with humans, can not be used as an insult, would be exactly the same as calling someone a pen, a pencil, or a rock.

Maybe Firmino called him the "n word" in English and we could not see in tv.
Its not an excuse but those racial slurs do not have the same weight in South America.

Is it only me that Firmino is a little darker than the c**t

Thats is the funny part..by the part of Brazil that Firmino comes from hes mixed Portuguese + native people. Thats why some people are confused sometimes, because he looks like someone from an asian island.