Why is our defence so shaky?

The big question. Why all of a sudden does our usually solid back 4 look so suspect? Why does the best centre half of this decade look shaky? And his defensive partner, a revelation last year, look like he's taken a few steps back?

In my humble opinion the answer lies in our success at the other end of the park. We are banging the goals in. Simply were attacking more as a team and not leaving it all to 1 or 2 players. Damned if ye do damned if ye don't scenario.

Experts told us we didn't attack enough didn't score enough goals. After the defeat to Boro last season we went on a goal glut. Rafa seems to have stuck by that policy since then. Look at the facts. Johnson has come in at right full. He's a massive plus going forward a great signing. Defensively is he has solid as Arbeloa? Insua on the left is a very attack minded full back while also being young so still learning. He will get caught out a lot more this season but he will give as much going forward.

The balance will come in time and we will see our back 4, whoever that maybe longterm this season, settle down and keep a lot more clean sheets, we still have the best keeper in the league too, whilst still seeing the goals fly in at the other end, Tactics don't change and work straight away theres always glitches. When they are ironed out I think we will be some very happy people. In the meantime bite our tongues at some of the defending at the minute and realise that the big picture is us attacking to win games to win trophies  

I think it because they haven't had the protection from midfield that they have got any other season. Its has being unlucky we haven't seen a full fit Masch yet this season. I think also our full backs have being more attacking and this has made us a bit more open.

Yeh i reckon its to do with the full backs,
With that Giovanni goal v Hull it was this in the box :
 ________________________ ____________________
 |                            |_________ |                           |
 |                                                                          |
 |                    H L       H L                                      |
 |                                                    H                    |         L

H = Hull, L = Liverpool
Insua being the one out far right
This SURELY has to have something to do with that goal

As i say, this is just an example of the full backs
Yes they are quality, but just maybe better wingers than defenders

Yeh i reckon its to do with the full backs,
With that Giovanni goal v Hull it was this in the box :
 ________________________ ____________________
 |                            |_________ |                           |
 |                                                                          |
 |                    H L       H L                                      |
 |                                                    H                    |         L

H = Hull, L = Liverpool
Insua being the one out far right
This SURELY has to have something to do with that goal

As i say, this is just an example of the full backs
Yes they are quality, but just maybe better wingers than defenders

Well in that goal, Both Carra and Skrtel went to the ball, and Carragher came away from Giovanni towards the ball, he should've known better.

Fair play , its just the fact Insua wasn't really doing anything that tended to bother me

I thought Carra was in a better position to clear than Skrtel? Skrtel like tried his best to get a touch and it ended up at Geovanni's feet.

I believe with time, our back 4 will be more settled.

In a lot of the games so far this season when you watch the pairing of Carra and Skrtel it seems that Carra doesn't trust Skrtel to successfully get the ball clear. The goal that Geovanni scored is my case in point, watching it in replay it seemed Skrtel was well positioned to clear the ball and it's as if Carra didn't think he was capable so left Geovanni alone to go 'help' Skrtel and we conceded.

Johnson and Insua need to re-learn the basics of defending and quickly, attacking they're fine but that's not what they're paid to do.

There just doesn't seem to be a shedload of confidence knocking about at the moment.

I agree that the full backs are attacking more ,that the absence of Masch is clear to see & unlikely mistakes from the centre halves all provide the answer.

I do feel we're still trying to find the balance in our new way of playing. I'm fully confident that once this is found, clean sheets will come on a more regular basis while the goals keep flowing at the other end.

So keep playing the same way and working hard to destroy this inconveinence.

IRWT

YNWA

I think its just Carra's desire to do everything it was evident at spurs when he tried to do Skrtel clearance and broke his Jaw and against Hull for Giovanni's goal. I love carra as much as the next guy but if he carries on this attitude he will cost us in big matches... I think Agger's comeback will have him under pressure for the first time in awhile....

I think are a number of reasons why we are so shaky
1. Our defenders clearly are not up to zonal marking when it comes to set pieces.
2. We now have attacking full backs which obviously has its minuses when it comes to defending.
3. Lack of confidence (it spreads quickly)
4. Not as much protection from midfield as last year.

Well, with Insua being called up to the Argie squad, we have two international gaffers and they won't want full-backs who can't defend will they? No.
So with Capello, Maradona + Rafa they WILL become the best full-backs in the prem, and maybe the world

Teams have found us out that's why.

Teams have realised that we struggle when the ball is above chest height, neither Carra or Skrtel are commanding in the air in the way Hyypia was. That's why we concede from set pieces more than not because we don't have somebody who'll throw their head on it and Pepe, as good as he is, isn't the best at coming out and claiming the ball. Carra and Skrtel's strength is those crunching tackles both of them love, but neither dominate the arial battles.

As for the full backs being more attacking that's why we're conceding more - bollocks. The goals we've conceded in open play (Hull 1 and the two against Fiorentina) we've had both full backs defending and F***ing up. The Hull goal came about from Johnson (full back) losing the header in our box before Skrtel failing to head it away with any conviction and the Fiorentina goals came from Insua (full back) playing the lad onside and the second came from Johnson (full back) failing to close the ball down. And every other goal has been from a set piece where we have all 11 back (including the full backs) defending. It's not because they're more attacking why we're conceding, it's because both are pretty average defenders.

Only time we've been caught without a full back an conceded was against West Ham, where Carragher gave the penalty away. Even then Johnson was getting back just failed to get back and Carra got done for pace.

Truth is teams have worked us out and found out we don't deal with the ball in the box too well. And since our full backs don't close the opposition down enough out wide it's easy for the ball to come in. So often you'll see the ball come in an if it's above chest height then we're likely to lose the header. That's where we struggle, and I'd imagine that was the purpose of signing of the Greek fella. Carra and Skrtel may be alright heading the ball away when it's traveling 60 yards from the opposing keeper's boot, but when they're challenged in our box they don't have that conviction of winning enough headers.

I have to agree with DLS...it's so depressing that we have enjoyed such a good defensive record and now we look like 'incompetents'  love Carra but his lack of pace needs to be shielded by our full-backs a bit more by closing attacks down.  Sunday is going to be such a nervy match for we fans - hope they're addressing this @ Melwood PLEASE 

Maybe we could have more options in defence by using Agger ( when he's fit ) and the greek guy Kyrgiakos, this might take some weight off Carra's shoulders and Skertel's,Agger does tend to turn defence into attack easily and is very comfortable on the ball and Kyrgiakos was good against Leeds i thought not losing many headers ,and yes i tend to agree with previous statements that teams have got used to us and our potential weak points in defence,that could be helped by our midfielders holding on to possession better and not being wasteful at times ,maybe introduce a sweeper to help protect the back four .?

It's the one gripe I have with Rafa - he only subs on the hour and not before when sometimes we are crying out the this say bring Kyrgiakos early on when he sees we lack ariel superiority - it wouldn't have hurt last night! I know he's boss most of the time but also stubborn

Truth is teams have worked us out and found out we don't deal with the ball in the box too well. And since our full backs don't close the opposition down enough out wide it's easy for the ball to come in. So often you'll see the ball come in an if it's above chest height then we're likely to lose the header. That's where we struggle, and I'd imagine that was the purpose of signing of the Greek fella. Carra and Skrtel may be alright heading the ball away when it's traveling 60 yards from the opposing keeper's boot, but when they're challenged in our box they don't have that conviction of winning enough headers.

That makes a fair bit of sense dls.  Hadn't thought about it like that. 

Sotis did look good in the air against Leeds, especially second half.  It does seem like Carra is trying to get to everything but falling short, almost like he doesn't trust his teammates at times.  A plus is that Agger had a decent runout yesterday for the reserves.  Hopefully he will be back in the mix soon.

Teams have found us out that's why.

Teams have realised that we struggle when the ball is above chest height, neither Carra or Skrtel are commanding in the air in the way Hyypia was. That's why we concede from set pieces more than not because we don't have somebody who'll throw their head on it and Pepe, as good as he is, isn't the best at coming out and claiming the ball. Carra and Skrtel's strength is those crunching tackles both of them love, but neither dominate the arial battles.

As for the full backs being more attacking that's why we're conceding more - bollocks. The goals we've conceded in open play (Hull 1 and the two against Fiorentina) we've had both full backs defending and f**king up. The Hull goal came about from Johnson (full back) losing the header in our box before Skrtel failing to head it away with any conviction and the Fiorentina goals came from Insua (full back) playing the lad onside and the second came from Johnson (full back) failing to close the ball down. And every other goal has been from a set piece where we have all 11 back (including the full backs) defending. It's not because they're more attacking why we're conceding, it's because both are pretty average defenders.

Only time we've been caught without a full back an conceded was against West Ham, where Carragher gave the penalty away. Even then Johnson was getting back just failed to get back and Carra got done for pace.

Truth is teams have worked us out and found out we don't deal with the ball in the box too well. And since our full backs don't close the opposition down enough out wide it's easy for the ball to come in. So often you'll see the ball come in an if it's above chest height then we're likely to lose the header. That's where we struggle, and I'd imagine that was the purpose of signing of the Greek fella. Carra and Skrtel may be alright heading the ball away when it's traveling 60 yards from the opposing keeper's boot, but when they're challenged in our box they don't have that conviction of winning enough headers.

I mean attacking full backs as in they are much better attacking than they are at defending, not that they are caught out attacking leaving it open at the back. To be honest i would still rather a attacking full back than a defensive one.

hansen said on MOTD we are making basic errors and that effects the confidence of the CB's,  also we now have a more attacking rightside with Glen and Dirk so maybe we have sacrificed some defensive duties to play a more attacking style of football

i don't think we look that suspect. from set pieces maybe.

My own gut feeling is that Johnson's attacking runs are a bit more adventurous than Arbeloa's ever were.  It's giving the other defenders a lot to think about.

And Insua is just as bad.

Couple that with the fact that Carra and Skrtel are not looking at the top of their game...

I agree JD I think the positioning of Johnson when going forward leaves the centre half pairing in limbo and in a state of panick. As has been mentioned on a number of occassions we have conceded this season Johnson or Insua have failed to track back their man. As a result Carra or Skrtel have had to come across and get done for pace or other reasons. But I do agree with the opening post also I think the whole team approach and mentality has shifted after that dizzmal run in January we have become a more attack minded side and have neglected our basic defensive duties.

My own gut feeling is that Johnson's attacking runs are a bit more adventurous than Arbeloa's ever were.  It's giving the other defenders a lot to think about.

I agree. It's usually where Mascherano would come across and cover though. When Arbeloa or Insua went forward last year we'd often see Masch either drop into right or left back or just come across and stand the player with the ball up until the full back got back into position. Doesn't seem to have clicked yet this time round.

I agree. It's usually where Mascherano would come across and cover though. When Arbeloa or Insua went forward last year we'd often see Masch either drop into right or left back or just come across and stand the player with the ball up until the full back got back into position. Doesn't seem to have clicked yet this time round.

It's not their attacking runs that have cost us though as I stated earlier. It's been the inability to defend from our full backs which has cost us, not because our full backs have gone on mazy runs up the field.

Other than the West Ham penalty where Johnson was up the field and tried to get back, every other goal we've conceded we've had at least one of the full backs back defending. The three goals we've conceded from open play have been down to bad defending from at least one of the full backs.

Hull - Johnson lost the header, Skrtel made a balls up of the following header
Fiorentina 1st - Insua playing the lad on
Fiiorentina 2nd - Johnson failing to close the ball down