Loris Karius (End of Contract)

Still showing faith in him, think he's got the talent raw talent to be cooked into a beautiful juicy steak....unfortunatley it seems Achterburg would be confused in a Mcdonalds kitchen!

Reckon he's as good as we can get in a young keeper but don't think we have the coach to bring the best out in him!

https://twitter.com/talkSPORT/status/805750458316976132

https://twitter.com/talkSPORT/status/805750458316976132

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

That said they managed 8 shots on target against us, i'd be interested to see how many other teams have had that many or more this season?

Our defence and midfield should be preventing them from shooting so Karius isn't the only one to blame.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

That said they managed 8 shots on target against us, i'd be interested to see how many other teams have had that many or more this season?

Our defence and midfield should be preventing them from shooting so Karius isn't the only one to blame.

To be Fair, our team has prevented a lot of shots, infact I just saw a stat that showed we had the least number of shots conceded per game in the whole Europe(prior to this game). The midfield and the defence has always made it quite easy for him( by limiting the number of shots from opponent). But when midfield and defence failed, he needed to show far better shot stopping than he showed in this game.

To be fair th keeper is there to do a job , saying the midfield  and or defense didn't do theirs is absolving him a bit , he has been poor ever since he replaced the hapless Ming , bit rich Bournemouth coming out and saying they targeted him they didn't do much of that till the tranquillisers kicked in after the 3/1  , he was poor again yesterday but that's nothing new , as he's been poor since he got between the sticks

Lack of class for a player to go on the radio and say they targeted a specific opposition player as a weak link.

Enjoy your day in the sun Steve Cook, whoever you are, and then F**k off back to obscurity.

Lack of class for a player to go on the radio and say they targeted a specific opposition player as a weak link.

Enjoy your day in the sun Steve Cook, whoever you are, and then f**k off back to obscurity.

Funny really when you think about how many times King got torn apart in the first half by James Milner, so much so that he got hooked at half time. Short memories obviously.

To be fair th keeper is there to do a job , saying the midfield  and or defense didn't do theirs is absolving him a bit , he has been poor ever since he replaced the hapless Ming , bit rich Bournemouth coming out and saying they targeted him they didn't do much of that till the tranquillisers kicked in after the 3/1  , he was poor again yesterday but that's nothing new , as he's been poor since he got between the sticks

I wasn't absolving him, I was more interested in how many shots they had on target and wondered how many other teams had managed 8 or more in a match this season.

He still should of done better though.

I wasn't absolving him, I was more interested in how many shots they had on target and wondered how many other teams had managed 8 or more in a match this season.

He still should of done better though.

I think most think that , watched all the goals back tonight , and while the defence was poor ultimately you rely on the man between the sticks , unfortunately for us our two could turn out to be our achilles heel  , heres hoping he improves sharpishly though .

Funny really when you think about how many times King got torn apart in the first half by James Milner, so much so that he got hooked at half time. Short memories obviously.

I think I read somewhere Cook is a bitter so it makes sense.

I think I read somewhere Cook is a bitter so it makes sense.

That's why then.

To be fair th keeper is there to do a job , saying the midfield  and or defense didn't do theirs is absolving him a bit , he has been poor ever since he replaced the hapless Ming , bit rich Bournemouth coming out and saying they targeted him they didn't do much of that till the tranquillisers kicked in after the 3/1  , he was poor again yesterday but that's nothing new , as he's been poor since he got between the sticks

Agree with this Andy. While I do think the burden of responsibility should be shared when there are such a multitude of mistakes leading to a goal there's also no denying that Loris has been relatively disappointing. He'll know it, Jürgen knows it, we all know it.

It is interesting to note the number of calls that are around for Migs to come back in though, no matter how poor you think Loris has been he's still performing to a higher standard than Migs. Karius was brought in to replace Mignolet and if he ultimately proves not good enough (not simply an upgrade) then we must look to replace Karius, but Migs is not the answer.

In 5 games in the league this season Migs saved only 1 shot per goal, Karius has saved 1.3 shots per goal right now (over 9 games). So when I hear "Migs would have saved that", or "Migs wouldn't have made that error", well on both counts I disagree. Migs saves fewer shots on target than virtually any keeper in the league, let alone Karius, and he also makes more mistakes that lead to goals than the majority of keepers in the league (worst last season I believe).

The focus should be on whether Karius is finding it hard settling in, as a lot of foreign keepers do, or do we go shopping again? In Karius' case I believe there are a few reasons it's too early to start hammering the nails in his coffin and getting the cheque book out:

New to the league.

Clearly nervous after breaking his hand and having a rough start.

Unfamiliar with facing so few shots. I understand that some will probably be unable to contain themselves and think of the rational behind this and will most likely pass it off as an excuse. We've seen the statistics that show just how few shots we face as a team, in fact we are extremely close to being the best team in the whole of Europe and that only listed shots faced. I believe if we saw the 'shots on target' statistic then we would probably stand out even further because in that department we have been truly exceptional for the majority of time that Jürgen has been managing us.

My thought process is that when any player goes to a new team they are eager to impress and in a couple of ways Karius was denied that. Firstly through the hand injury but and secondly through our incredible defending. From my perspective that would not only increase the nerves and frustration but also over emphasise the errors. Being ready for those few moments in a match and maintaining alertness while not being involved is an art in itself one that Karius clearly doesn't have right now, but rather than giving up on him I'm going to give him patience.

Just for further statistical evidence to back up why we shouldn't be throwing in the towel:

In 2016:

Saves per goal: 2.1
Errors for the entire season: 0

In 2015:

Saves per goal: 2.35
Errors for the entire season: 2

So he's clearly performing well below his own standards, give him a bit of time to build his confidence and there's a good chance that his good form will return. Class is permanent as they say.

Agree with this Andy. While I do think the burden of responsibility should be shared when there are such a multitude of mistakes leading to a goal there's also no denying that Loris has been relatively disappointing. He'll know it, Jürgen knows it, we all know it.

It is interesting to note the number of calls that are around for Migs to come back in though, no matter how poor you think Loris has been he's still performing to a higher standard than Migs. Karius was brought in to replace Mignolet and if he ultimately proves not good enough (not simply an upgrade) then we must look to replace Karius, but Migs is not the answer.

In 5 games in the league this season Migs saved only 1 shot per goal, Karius has saved 1.3 shots per goal right now (over 9 games). So when I hear "Migs would have saved that", or "Migs wouldn't have made that error", well on both counts I disagree. Migs saves fewer shots on target than virtually any keeper in the league, let alone Karius, and he also makes more mistakes that lead to goals than the majority of keepers in the league (worst last season I believe).

The focus should be on whether Karius is finding it hard settling in, as a lot of foreign keepers do, or do we go shopping again? In Karius' case I believe there are a few reasons it's too early to start hammering the nails in his coffin and getting the cheque book out:

New to the league.

Clearly nervous after breaking his hand and having a rough start.

Unfamiliar with facing so few shots. I understand that some will probably be unable to contain themselves and think of the rational behind this and will most likely pass it off as an excuse. We've seen the statistics that show just how few shots we face as a team, in fact we are extremely close to being the best team in the whole of Europe and that only listed shots faced. I believe if we saw the 'shots on target' statistic then we would probably stand out even further because in that department we have been truly exceptional for the majority of time that Jürgen has been managing us.

My thought process is that when any player goes to a new team they are eager to impress and in a couple of ways Karius was denied that. Firstly through the hand injury but and secondly through our incredible defending. From my perspective that would not only increase the nerves and frustration but also over emphasise the errors. Being ready for those few moments in a match and maintaining alertness while not being involved is an art in itself one that Karius clearly doesn't have right now, but rather than giving up on him I'm going to give him patience.

Just for further statistical evidence to back up why we shouldn't be throwing in the towel:

In 2016:

Saves per goal: 2.1
Errors for the entire season: 0

In 2015:

Saves per goal: 2.35
Errors for the entire season: 2

So he's clearly performing well below his own standards, give him a bit of time to build his confidence and there's a good chance that his good form will return. Class is permanent as they say.

The problem with the stats you love to use as evidence to say that Migs can't save this or that is whether they are actually 'savable' shots.

For e.g. the penalty against us on Sunday will go down against Karius in the shot to save ratio, a shot where a keeper has minimal chance of saving. Taking all that context out of the argument and using bare faced numbers for a binary argument is such a rudimentary argument that a colander can hold more water than it. 

There are many shots 'in game' that are like this too.

Two goals that Bournemouth scored we're 'savable' the spillage goal (4th) and young Fraser's goal (2nd IIRC), that went virtually under him.

Stats are therefore rendered meaningless in this context, and only allow spin.

Can someone explain to me what exactly Karius is supposed to be good at?

Can someone explain to me what exactly Karius is supposed to be good at?

He probably needs time - but even then it's doubtful how good he'll be.

He hasn't been convincing and that's putting it nicely, and when you've got players from Bournemouth pointing this out, you know that everyone else know's what you know or at least should know about your goalkeeper.

The problem with the stats you love to use as evidence to say that Migs can't save this or that is whether they are actually 'savable' shots.

For e.g. the penalty against us on Sunday will go down against Karius in the shot to save ratio, a shot where a keeper has minimal chance of saving.

There are many shots 'in game' that are like this too.

Two goals that Bournemouth scored we're 'savable' the spillage goal (4th) and young Fraser's goal (2nd IIRC), that went virtually under him.

Stats are therefore rendered meaningless in this context, and only allow spin.

For all his faults, Migs looks a better shot stopper than Karius and only someone with an agenda who's been that desperate to see the back end of Mig's will try and defend Karius over Mig's here.

Rubbish.

I'm looking at stats over years, not just small sample sizes like people claiming Karius is useless on just 9 games after returning from a broken hand.

You'd have a point if I was basing my opinion only on the 5 games Migs has played this year but:

Migs shots saved per goal conceded in the past 4 seasons (time with us):

1 (5 games)
1.27 (34 games)
1.63 (36 games)
1.7 (38 games)

Karius

1.3 (9 games)
2.1 (34 games)
2.35 (33 games)
2.29 (23 games)

There's one clear pattern and that's Karius produces more saves per goal conceded, over that length of time it is absurd to suggest that he has just been unlucky in facing more difficult shots. The one clear anomaly is the 1.3 and that is over Karius' shortest stretch of games, so I'm much more inclined to believe there are factors keeping his form down than there are reasons to believe he is simply garbage as is being portrayed.

As for agenda against Mignolet, the only agenda I have is that I want better players playing for Liverpool. Mignolet has proven over the years he isn't good enough. I believe Karius at least could have some hope, if he also fails also then we should buy another keeper but the delusion is that people think Karius is performing worse than Migs even now but even at his worst point in 4 years he is still performing better than Migs has this season or the previous one.

Rubbish.

I'm looking at stats over years, not just small sample sizes like people claiming Karius is useless on just 9 games after returning from a broken hand.

You'd have a point if I was basing my opinion only on the 5 games Migs has played this year but:

Migs shots saved per goal conceded in the past 4 seasons (time with us):

1 (5 games)
1.27 (34 games)
1.63 (36 games)
1.7 (38 games)

Karius

1.3 (9 games)
2.1 (34 games)
2.35 (33 games)
2.29 (23 games)

There's one clear pattern and that's Karius produces more saves per goal conceded, over that length of time it is absurd to suggest that he has just been unlucky in facing more difficult shots. The one clear anomaly is the 1.3 and that is over Karius' shortest stretch of games, so I'm much more inclined to believe there are factors keeping his form down than there are reasons to believe he is simply garbage as is being portrayed.

As for agenda against Mignolet, the only agenda I have is that I want better players playing for Liverpool. Mignolet has proven over the years he isn't good enough. I believe Karius at least could have some hope, if he also fails also then we should buy another keeper but the delusion is that people think Karius is performing worse than Migs even now but even at his worst point in 4 years he is still performing better than Migs has this season or the previous one.

Mig's isn't playing in the same team now that used to allow more shots on goal, and neither obviously is Karius for that matter.

Using Karius' stats in a different league is also meaningless.

All the stats you dig up are too binary and don't factor in 'context' - a word if I remember rightly you used to love.

Using Karius' stats in a different league is also meaningless.

All the stats you dig up are too binary and don't factor in 'context' - a word if I remember rightly you used to love.

How is using his shot stopping ability over 4 years not providing context? My argument is that there's a good chance what we're seeing is a player who is performing way below his best and I've presented the reasons for that quite clearly.

I also suggest that Mignolet isn't the better option, despite how absence can make the heart grow fonder, we shouldn't forget just how bloody useless he is! The context for that is his form with us, couldn't be more relevant and reliable.

I've also shown why even at this point Karius is giving us, on paper, better numbers than Migs has for the previous year and his short amount of games this year. What we see with Mignolet is a steady decline and that is something that also happened to Reina. While I don't think he was anywhere near as bad as some made out, there's no doubting his form definitely got worse under us once Achterberg became coach. Now Karius comes in and also performs below his standards, there's definitely questions to be asked of our goalkeeping coaching staff, as has long been suggested.

How is using his shot stopping ability over 4 years not providing context? My argument is that there's a good chance what we're seeing is a player who is performing way below his best and I've presented the reasons for that quite clearly.

I also suggest that Mignolet isn't the better option, despite how absence can make the heart grow fonder, we shouldn't forget just how bloody useless he is! The context for that is his form with us, couldn't be more relevant and reliable.

I've also shown why even at this point Karius is giving us, on paper, better numbers than Migs has for the previous year and his short amount of games this year. What we see with Mignolet is a steady decline and that is something that also happened to Reina. While I don't think he was anywhere near as bad as some made out, there's no doubting his form definitely got worse under us once Achterberg became coach. Now Karius comes in and also performs below his standards, there's definitely questions to be asked of our goalkeeping coaching staff, as has long been suggested.

Using solely numbers to make definitive judgements is something I'd expect a number cruncher in the TC department to do. It gives you an indicator and builds up a player profile, but when you start comparing these profiles across different leagues, times and teams the stats then open up more holes than a colander. I'd rather  factor in all the variables and context around them and make a knowledgeable assessment of a player using my own judgement and knowledge of the game.

It's your prerogative to scramble for the statistics everytime you feel the urge to prove something. But I don't buy what you do, and that's my prerogative.

As for blaming Achterberg, well there maybe some legs on that theory too, but I also think that we simply don't buy right in the GK department.

Karius clearly needs time, as with him we clearly haven't bought right for this moment in time and now depend on him to come good. In the mean time, it will be natural for people to call out his unconvincing performances, and for others to call for a return to goal for Mignolet. We've probably got to stick it out with Karius for the time being in order not to shoot his confidence anymore, however, I am certain in my belief and experience that Mignolet would have saved two of those shots that Karius failed to make on Sunday - and even though it is speculation on my behalf your use of stats don't in anyway whatsoever halt that speculation.

Using solely numbers to make definitive judgements is something I'd expect a number cruncher in the TC department to do. It gives you an indicator and builds up a player profile, but when you start comparing these profiles across different leagues, times and teams the stats then open up more holes than a colander. I'd rather  factor in all the variables and context around them and make a knowledgeable assessment of a player using my own judgement and knowledge of the game.

Which of course I'm also doing, I've watched Mignolet for almost every minute of his games with us and only went searching for stats when the argument of "he's a great shot stopper" developed. At that point it became obvious to me that this was simply a myth born out of the occasional top class save muddying people's perceptions. When you factor into the equation of how poor he is with distribution, how he slows our game down to a crawl and has absolutely no command of his box you'd start to think he was bad but there's more! The lad puts other players under constant pressure with poor passes out from the back because that's not his natural game and he flaps at crosses consistently. So for me that player is already a lost cause.

It's your prerogative to scramble for the statistics everytime you feel the urge to prove something. But I don't buy what you do, and that's my prerogative.

It's not scrambling it's finding supporting evidence that goes beyond simply my perspective and my opinion.

Karius clearly needs time, as with him we clearly haven't bought right for this moment in time and now depend on him to come good. In the mean time, it will be natural for people to call out his unconvincing performances, and for others to call for a return to goal for Mignolet.

No problem at all with calling him out but as you then go on to say:

We've probably got to stick it out with Karius for the time being in order not to shoot his confidence anymore,

Is exactly the right answer and the argument I'm making.

I am certain in my belief and experience that Mignolet would have saved two of those shots that Karius failed to make on Sunday - and even though it is speculation on my behalf your use of stats don't in anyway whatsoever halt that speculation.

See this is where we disagree completely because I've seen Migs let in very simple shots that are almost right at him and over the long run (hence the use of statistics) it's my belief that Karius will prove that this is a low point for him rather than his level and as such we should (and will) stick with him.

.See this is where we disagree completely because I've seen Migs let in very simple shots that are almost right at him and over the long run (hence the use of statistics) it's my belief that Karius will prove that this is a low point for him rather than his level and as such we should (and will) stick with him.

The stats don't tell you what shots were actually 'savable' and what shots weren't, that's why they are useless.

Karius' shot to save ratio on that pen was heavily favoured in Wilson's favour and therefore it would be entirely wrong to blame Karius for not saving that shot. But using the stats as rudimentarily as you do means that goes against Karius as a shot stopper.

And of course those stats are the same for Mignolet, who did not have the luxury of playing in a team who is much better at dominating games, and at preventing copious amounts of shots on goal.

Mignolet has many faults, shot stopping and reflex saves aren't one of them and Karius is certainly not better than him at this. And Karius while hasn't convinced on that front (a primary for a GK), he hasn't convinced on crosses either, he does sweep better. However, his kicking at times has played his own team mates into trouble, he played a ball straight out to Pogba which if Ibrahimovic would have stayed onside and scored he would have been rightly slaughtered for, like his goal kick that went out for a corner last week. 

There isn't, as some we still try and suggest any 'night and day' between them, and that is the sad indictment of it all.

The supposed upgrade doesn't actually look any better.

Mignolet is the worst goalkeeper in the league. Karius is in his first season, new to the league and green.

We knew there would be a period like this. It happens with every new goalkeeper to this league with the exception of Cech. De Gea struggled at first, Lloris struggled to the point that Spurs fans wanted a 40 year old Brad Friedel back. Pepe Reina let in loads of clangers in his first season. We need to take the rough with the smooth with young Karius.

I guess absence is making the heart grow fonder with Simon for some. Please don't be that bloody stupid. This man has been statistically proven to be the worst keeper in the league year after year who's mistakes have again been proven to cost us more points than any other goalkeeper lets down a team. Mignolet is not fit to wear the shirt and if you're calling for him to come back in you need your head checked. Have some F***ing patience and if you're one of those cu*ts who only post when we lose, do me a favour and F**k off.

Mignolet is the worst goalkeeper in the league.

I'd put him ahead of Boruc. Just.