We need to talk about Henderson...

I don't think the setup is a huge factor as you will always have players free in those pockets of space, whether a limited amount or not, but the question I pose, how often does our deep lying midfielder look for those passes? And in our case, I think Hendo rarely does and struggles doing this.

I decided to watch a relatively easy match where we had the brunt of the possession vs a defensive team, and re-watching the Crystal Palace home match first half (haven't watched the 2nd yet!), Henderson had 10 opportunities to pass it into our players in those pockets of space (he only made one pass in the first half), but was over looked for killer or safe options (pretty much sums up Henderson), whether they would have been the right option or not I don't know, but the point is, he very rarely looks for those passes.

I get he is a different type of midfielder to Shelvey, and I'm not asking him to play Hollywood balls or to create like a Fabregas etc, I just want to see our #6 distribute the ball like how a #6 would/should and to be more positionally aware. I also get it is not Henderson's fault because he doesn't ask to be played there, right? And the question I keep asking myself, what does Klopp (and even Rodgers) like so much about Hendo in that role?

Personally think Hendo can pick out a long ball, and can switch play well to wings to get the FB going forward, and in behind. Problem there tho is our quality of crossing hasn't been great from FBs, and there's no center forward in there anyway taking up good positions to take advantage.

We don't vary our play enough (back to the old planB), and are too dependant on Cou or someone threading an inch perfect pass thro a narrow crowded middle. Which is why 'we need to talk about Cou's replacement..' probably more than Hendo.

In saying that, in bus parking matches, would like all our CMs to be more positive with the ball, and move it forward quicker. I'd have liked to have subbed him against Utd and gone for more attacking option. But Jürgen decided not to, which you'd have to think is due to Jürgen not wanting to LOOSE the game, and THAT's why Hendo is there, not necessarily to open the team up at other end.

Personally think Hendo can pick out a long ball, and can switch play well to wings to get the FB going forward, and in behind. Problem there tho is our quality of crossing hasn't been great from FBs, and there's no center forward in there anyway taking up good positions to take advantage.

We don't vary our play enough (back to the old planB), and are too dependant on Cou or someone threading an inch perfect pass thro a narrow crowded middle. Which is why 'we need to talk about Cou's replacement..' probably more than Hendo.

In saying that, in bus parking matches, would like all our CMs to be more positive with the ball, and move it forward quicker. I'd have liked to have subbed him against Utd and gone for more attacking option. But Jürgen decided not to, which you'd have to think is due to Jürgen not wanting to LOOSE the game, and THAT's why Hendo is there, not necessarily to open the team up at other end.

He's not particularly great a protecting the back 4 either you just need to look at his positioning with all the goals we concede.

I don't think the setup is a huge factor as you will always have players free in those pockets of space, whether a limited amount or not, but the question I pose, how often does our deep lying midfielder look for those passes? And in our case, I think Hendo rarely does and struggles doing this.

I decided to watch a relatively easy match where we had the brunt of the possession vs a defensive team, and re-watching the Crystal Palace home match first half (haven't watched the 2nd yet!), Henderson had 10 opportunities to pass it into our players in those pockets of space (he only made one pass in the first half), but was over looked for killer or safe options (pretty much sums up Henderson), whether they would have been the right option or not I don't know, but the point is, he very rarely looks for those passes.

I get he is a different type of midfielder to Shelvey in a different setup, and I'm not asking him to play Hollywood balls or to create like a Fabregas etc, I just want to see our #6 distribute the ball like how a #6 would/should and to be more positionally aware. I also get it is not Henderson's fault because he doesn't ask to be played there, right? And the question I keep asking myself, what does Klopp (and even Rodgers) like so much about Hendo in that role?

Still think you’re missing the point mate. Those spaces simply don’t exist versus a Palace or a Newcastle or even a Utd.

Look - I like kid and have always been honest about that - I’m not saying he isn’t more conservative than he used to be. He clearly has arguably the best passing range at the club but currently is only employing a fraction of it.

I am saying that calling him out for not making those passes and not calling out Phil, Gini or Can smacks a bit of looking for someone to blame.

He's not particularly great a protecting the back 4 either you just need to look at his positioning with all the goals we concede.

Not sure what to say to that apart from I think our defensive shambolix has less to do with Hendo than mutliple other things..

Not sure what to say to that apart from I think our defensive shambolix has less to do with Hendo than mutliple other things..

He is part of the defence playing the role he does.

Man...

I really feel like I'm talking to a brick wall sometimes.

His role is clearly to give it to our 'creative players' who in turn make the chances. However he also does create attacking moves from time to time. In fact here is where he ranks:

1. Coutinho - 3.89 chances created per game
2. Firmino - 2.42 chances created per game
3. Henderson - 1.57 chances created per game
4. Salah - 1.53 chances created per game
5. Moreno - 1.50 chances created per game
6. Can - 1.22 chances created per game
7. Mane - 0.99 chances created per game
6. Gini - 0.62 chances created per game

Clearly the other players around him are not pulling their weight. The fact that Henderson (in my opinion) isn't even in the team to create from deep and he is still making more chances than our other 2 midfield players actually makes me wonder what the f**k are Can and Gini even doing. They tackle less, pass less, run less, retrieve the ball less and create less than Jordan. In the league this year, Henderson is the midfielder in our team that wins the ball back the most, has scored the most and has created the most and yet gets the most stick.

So look, say all you want, trust 'what you see' all you want... However like I said earlier, people have what they see and I have what I see... but all I'm asking for is evidence. If I can find evidence to justify my views, I'm sure other people can too.

(This is a bit of a defence for both Henderson and Wijnaldum playing in our current midfield.)

Only going to comment on the bit in bold and Wijnaldum, because I think that playing Can isn't only causing Henderson problems, but even more so Wijnaldum. Wijnaldum, out of the three mentioned, is for me, by far our best midfielder, both on the ball and off the ball.

The problem though is that what he is currently doing, can't be measured by statistics. I don't know if anyone remembers the game where someone posted stats from his touches on the ball and passes in a game (he didn't have many), saying that he doesn't influence our game. While that may be partly true, it's not the whole story. Our midfield dynamic is completely different with Can in it compared to with someone like Lallana or Coutinho. I've been watching him individually ever since that Leicester game to see what he is doing and what's going wrong (as far as I can see, there are probably a lot of things that I'm missing).

People might think I'm clutching at straws here to "excuse" his performances, but please do look yourself at what he is doing. His running stats are still up there next to Henderson's, so he's constantly on the move, working his ass off. The thing is though, there is no measurement or statistic for "x amount of passing lanes cut off" or "x amount of times pressed the opponent into losing possession". That's his work off the ball which is very important for the way we play. With Can being culpable of leaving his position all too often, not picking up runners, ... Both Henderson and Wijnaldum are all over the place plugging gaps to try and avoid our defence getting exposed (which it has been multiple times this season when Can has started). He isn't getting forward nearly as much as he did last season and I can't remember him having too many chances this season. Off the top of my head, two against Hoffenheim at home, one against Arsenal and maybe a few others from outside the box, but that's it. 

With regards to his tackles and recoveries numbers. Klopp has said multiple times that "a gegenpressing situation is the best playmaker". To create gegenpressing situations, we try to push the opponents to the side of the pitch where we want them to go, by allowing them certain passing lanes into certain areas on the pitch, our pressing traps, where our most explosive players can then press and try to win the ball back.



That's one of the pressing traps that Klopp used at Dortmund for example. The setup (4-2-3-1) is slightly different, but the idea is the same. Gundogan there is Henderson, who should be a bit lower on the pitch, Kehl is Wijnaldum. What you'll often see in these situations is that Wijnaldum is on the base of the pressing situation. It's very important that he doesn't fly in or try to tackle there, that's not his job and it's something you'll very, very rarely see him do. That's where Firmino (or Mane for example) is of so much importance, you'll see him coming in from behind to try and nick the ball away from the opposition player with all our other players ready to pounce and get forward. If you'd have Wijnaldum flying in, trying to tackle, he leaves his position and allows himself to be turned by the opposition player, if that happens, look at the space that player finds himself in to pick a pass to one of the forwards.  That's why his recoveries / tackle numbers will always be low, even if he's playing brilliantly.

He also suffers from not having someone to link up with in midfield like he did last season with Lallana. When Can plays, Henderson and him are almost babysitting him with regards to his defensive duties. That's one of the reasons why he is getting forward less and getting on the ball less. The other reason is Coutinho. Coutinho pretty much sucks the ball towards him. Either he drops deep to get it or players prefer to play it to him rather than Wijnaldum (can't really fault them there). It's not that he isn't showing for the ball or afraid of getting it, you see him show for it a lot, he's just not getting it for a reason I don't know. With both Can or Coutinho in the team, his role is different from what it was last season, which is why I think we've seen such a massive drop in his creative / goal scoring numbers. Look at every single one of his seasons from his time at PSV up to last season, he has always been close to or in double figures for goals scored or assists. I can't wait for Lallana to come back or Keita to arrive, I think they will bring back the best out Wijnaldum.

(This is a bit of a defence for both Henderson and Wijnaldum playing in our current midfield.)

Only going to comment on the bit in bold and Wijnaldum, because I think that playing Can isn't only causing Henderson problems, but even more so Wijnaldum. Wijnaldum, out of the three mentioned, is for me, by far our best midfielder, both on the ball and off the ball.

The problem though is that what he is currently doing, can't be measured by statistics. I don't know if anyone remembers the game where someone posted stats from his touches on the ball and passes in a game (he didn't have many), saying that he doesn't influence our game. While that may be partly true, it's not the whole story. Our midfield dynamic is completely different with Can in it compared to with someone like Lallana or Coutinho. I've been watching him individually ever since that Leicester game to see what he is doing and what's going wrong (as far as I can see, there are probably a lot of things that I'm missing).

People might think I'm clutching at straws here to "excuse" his performances, but please do look yourself at what he is doing. His running stats are still up there next to Henderson's, so he's constantly on the move, working his ass off. The thing is though, there is no measurement or statistic for "x amount of passing lanes cut off" or "x amount of times pressed the opponent into losing possession". That's his work off the ball which is very important for the way we play. With Can being culpable of leaving his position all too often, not picking up runners, ... Both Henderson and Wijnaldum are all over the place plugging gaps to try and avoid our defence getting exposed (which it has been multiple times this season when Can has started). He isn't getting forward nearly as much as he did last season and I can't remember him having too many chances this season. Off the top of my head, two against Hoffenheim at home, one against Arsenal and maybe a few others from outside the box, but that's it. 

With regards to his tackles and recoveries numbers. Klopp has said multiple times that "a gegenpressing situation is the best playmaker". To create gegenpressing situations, we try to push the opponents to the side of the pitch where we want them to go, by allowing them certain passing lanes into certain areas on the pitch, our pressing traps, where our most explosive players can then press and try to win the ball back.



That's one of the pressing traps that Klopp used at Dortmund for example. The setup (4-2-3-1) is slightly different, but the idea is the same. Gundogan there is Henderson, who should be a bit lower on the pitch, Kehl is Wijnaldum. What you'll often see in these situations is that Wijnaldum is on the base of the pressing situation. It's very important that he doesn't fly in or try to tackle there, that's not his job and it's something you'll very, very rarely see him do. That's where Firmino (or Mane for example) is of so much importance, you'll see him coming in from behind to try and nick the ball away from the opposition player with all our other players ready to pounce and get forward. If you'd have Wijnaldum flying in, trying to tackle, he leaves his position and allows himself to be turned by the opposition player, if that happens, look at the space that player finds himself in to pick a pass to one of the forwards.  That's why his recoveries / tackle numbers will always be low, even if he's playing brilliantly.

He also suffers from not having someone to link up with in midfield like he did last season with Lallana. When Can plays, Henderson and him are almost babysitting him with regards to his defensive duties. That's one of the reasons why he is getting forward less and getting on the ball less. The other reason is Coutinho. Coutinho pretty much sucks the ball towards him. Either he drops deep to get it or players prefer to play it to him rather than Wijnaldum (can't really fault them there). It's not that he isn't showing for the ball or afraid of getting it, you see him show for it a lot, he's just not getting it for a reason I don't know. With both Can or Coutinho in the team, his role is different from what it was last season, which is why I think we've seen such a massive drop in his creative / goal scoring numbers. Look at every single one of his seasons from his time at PSV up to last season, he has always been close to or in double figures for goals scored or assists. I can't wait for Lallana to come back or Keita to arrive, I think they will bring back the best out Wijnaldum.

why does Klopp keep playing Can.

(This is a bit of a defence for both Henderson and Wijnaldum playing in our current midfield.)

Only going to comment on the bit in bold and Wijnaldum, because I think that playing Can isn't only causing Henderson problems, but even more so Wijnaldum. Wijnaldum, out of the three mentioned, is for me, by far our best midfielder, both on the ball and off the ball.

The problem though is that what he is currently doing, can't be measured by statistics. I don't know if anyone remembers the game where someone posted stats from his touches on the ball and passes in a game (he didn't have many), saying that he doesn't influence our game. While that may be partly true, it's not the whole story. Our midfield dynamic is completely different with Can in it compared to with someone like Lallana or Coutinho. I've been watching him individually ever since that Leicester game to see what he is doing and what's going wrong (as far as I can see, there are probably a lot of things that I'm missing).

People might think I'm clutching at straws here to "excuse" his performances, but please do look yourself at what he is doing. His running stats are still up there next to Henderson's, so he's constantly on the move, working his ass off. The thing is though, there is no measurement or statistic for "x amount of passing lanes cut off" or "x amount of times pressed the opponent into losing possession". That's his work off the ball which is very important for the way we play. With Can being culpable of leaving his position all too often, not picking up runners, ... Both Henderson and Wijnaldum are all over the place plugging gaps to try and avoid our defence getting exposed (which it has been multiple times this season when Can has started). He isn't getting forward nearly as much as he did last season and I can't remember him having too many chances this season. Off the top of my head, two against Hoffenheim at home, one against Arsenal and maybe a few others from outside the box, but that's it. 

With regards to his tackles and recoveries numbers. Klopp has said multiple times that "a gegenpressing situation is the best playmaker". To create gegenpressing situations, we try to push the opponents to the side of the pitch where we want them to go, by allowing them certain passing lanes into certain areas on the pitch, our pressing traps, where our most explosive players can then press and try to win the ball back.



That's one of the pressing traps that Klopp used at Dortmund for example. The setup (4-2-3-1) is slightly different, but the idea is the same. Gundogan there is Henderson, who should be a bit lower on the pitch, Kehl is Wijnaldum. What you'll often see in these situations is that Wijnaldum is on the base of the pressing situation. It's very important that he doesn't fly in or try to tackle there, that's not his job and it's something you'll very, very rarely see him do. That's where Firmino (or Mane for example) is of so much importance, you'll see him coming in from behind to try and nick the ball away from the opposition player with all our other players ready to pounce and get forward. If you'd have Wijnaldum flying in, trying to tackle, he leaves his position and allows himself to be turned by the opposition player, if that happens, look at the space that player finds himself in to pick a pass to one of the forwards.  That's why his recoveries / tackle numbers will always be low, even if he's playing brilliantly.

He also suffers from not having someone to link up with in midfield like he did last season with Lallana. When Can plays, Henderson and him are almost babysitting him with regards to his defensive duties. That's one of the reasons why he is getting forward less and getting on the ball less. The other reason is Coutinho. Coutinho pretty much sucks the ball towards him. Either he drops deep to get it or players prefer to play it to him rather than Wijnaldum (can't really fault them there). It's not that he isn't showing for the ball or afraid of getting it, you see him show for it a lot, he's just not getting it for a reason I don't know. With both Can or Coutinho in the team, his role is different from what it was last season, which is why I think we've seen such a massive drop in his creative / goal scoring numbers. Look at every single one of his seasons from his time at PSV up to last season, he has always been close to or in double figures for goals scored or assists. I can't wait for Lallana to come back or Keita to arrive, I think they will bring back the best out Wijnaldum.

So with both Lallana and Keita here - what do you see as the starting midfield? Gini was much more involved in the attack on Saturday, at least in the first half?

Also, off topic, but do you expect Emre to leave at the end of the season?

why does Klopp keep playing Can.

What other options does he have? Since Coutinho is back, we have had one game with pretty much everyone (bar Lallana) fit and Can wasn't in the starting eleven. Our midfield was Henderson, Wijnaldum, Coutinho. When was Can in the starting eleven last season? When either Henderson or Lallana was injured. He has never been a starter for us if our other midfielders were fit and he never will be. Chamberlain obviously isn't ready yet to be a starter in our midfield, so he isn't an option either.

At the start of the season, both Lallana and Coutinho were missing, leaving us with only Henderson, Can and Wijnaldum to play, so he was played. Then Mane was suspended / injured, so we had to move Coutinho out wide again, giving us one less option in midfield, so Can was played. See what's happening? He only gets in the side when we have issues somewhere else on the pitch or when our midfielders are injured / being rested.

So with both Lallana and Keita here - what do you see as the starting midfield? Gini was much more involved in the attack on Saturday, at least in the first half?

Also, off topic, but do you expect Emre to leave at the end of the season?

He was indeed involved in some attacking play because the first half was the only half in which United occasionally showed some intent to attack, leaving more space for our midfielders to get on the ball and start attacks, which he did very well.

With Coutinho probably leaving next season too, I see it being Henderson - Keita - Lallana (depending on how fit he gets). I hope Klopp brings in someone as a starter for Henderson's role. We'd have new starter - Keita - Lallana as our starting midfielders with Henderson - Wijnaldum - Chamberlain as second string. Wether he leaves or not is pretty much down to him. I think that if he wanted to stay, we'd have heard something about his contract situation by now. I also think that he's genuinely worried about playing time with Keita coming in too. Unless his awareness, concentration and tactical intelligence improves so he can be a #6, I don't see him staying here.

What other options does he have? Since Coutinho is back, we have had one game with pretty much everyone (bar Lallana) fit and Can wasn't in the starting eleven. Our midfield was Henderson, Wijnaldum, Coutinho. When was Can in the starting eleven last season? When either Henderson or Lallana was injured. He has never been a starter for us if our other midfielders were fit and he never will be.

At the start of the season, both Lallana and Coutinho were missing, leaving us with only Henderson, Can and Wijnaldum to play, so he was played. Then Mane was suspended / injured, so we had to move Coutinho out wide again, giving us one less option in midfield, so Can was played. See what's happening? He only gets in the side when we have issues somewhere else on the pitch or when our midfielders are injured / being rested.

He was indeed involved in some attacking play because the first half was the only half in which United occasionally showed some intent to attack, leaving more space for our midfielders to get on the ball and start attacks, which he did very well.

With Coutinho probably leaving next season too, I see it being Henderson - Keita - Lallana (depending on how fit he gets). I hope Klopp brings in someone as a starter for Henderson's role.

You are making excuses for Gini disappearing, don't get me wrong Can has been poor this season.

If Gini really was plugging the gaps that Can is leaving I would expect his tackling stats to show that.

You say he is making runs forward but yet he is hardly ever available because he is not finding space.

Look I like Gini but he has been playing poorly and to blame it on another player is not something I buy.

End of the day if Can is clearly causing so many issues as you claim and it's so obvious I guarantee Klopp can see it and he does have options in Grujic, Milner, Woodburn etc.

You are making excuses for Gini disappearing, don't get me wrong Can has been poor this season.

If Gini really was plugging the gaps that Can is leaving I would expect his tackling stats to show that.

You say he is making runs forward but yet he is hardly ever available because he is not finding space.

Look I like Gini but he has been playing poorly and to blame it on another player is not something I buy.

End of the day if Can is clearly causing so many issues as you claim and it's so obvious I guarantee Klopp can see it and he does have options in Grujic, Milner, Woodburn etc.

I wasn't making excuses mate, just making observations and trying to describe what I see when watching him individually during games. I agree that he hasn't been as good as he can be on the ball, you're right about that and I'm not trying to tell people otherwise.

What the statistics do tell though, is that he's getting on the ball far less than he was last season. So when assessing his game, you can't just say he's disappearing during games and solely base that on the time he has on the ball, when his work off the ball (which I was commenting on and which is a big part of his game this season) is still important, very good and that he's working very hard.

What I then did is try and find explanations for why he isn't getting on the ball as much (you're welcome to disagree, not stating them as facts). When he's playing with Coutinho in midfield, he's getting on the ball less because Coutinho (and Henderson) will have the lion share of possession in midfield with Wijnaldum being Coutinho's "watercarrier". When Can is playing, he isn't getting forward as much because Can is playing furthest forward (he is making the runs into the box Wijnaldum was making last season). It's not really putting the blame on someone, it's trying to figure out what other players are doing that is affecting his game and his role in the team.

He can do better, no denying that, just asking people to not base their opinions of players by amount of touches on the ball or amount of passes.

Also, I had really high hopes for Grujic, but he has looked very poor so far. Can, with his faults, is still miles ahead of him. And now you mention it, Milner HAS actually started ahead of Can in midfield this season too (Palace game, where our midfield was Henderson - Milner - Wijnaldum), so Klopp does see that as an option, just not in every game. Woodburn is still too young to have a starting role in League / CL games for us.

Still think you’re missing the point mate. Those spaces simply don’t exist versus a Palace or a Newcastle or even a Utd.

Look - I like kid and have always been honest about that - I’m not saying he isn’t more conservative than he used to be. He clearly has arguably the best passing range at the club but currently is only employing a fraction of it.

I am saying that calling him out for not making those passes and not calling out Phil, Gini or Can smacks a bit of looking for someone to blame.

I have re-watched the first half of Utd, and those spaces do exist, but very limited vs Utd, here are the missed opportunities from Hendo. The minutes are up there so you can see how the play flows too.


**Note: The black lines are the passes he could have made**

As I said, you can see a lot more vs Palace (10 missed opportunities in the 1st half). I actually think those passes would be made by the likes of Lucas, Jorginho etc.

He is getting the opportunities to make those passes, but he doesn't because he is not capable. Not even having Napoli's front 3, Allan and Hamsik in the middle would we see Hendo distributing like Jorginho, he is just too slow and safe as he is not a natural ball player and not a #6.

I mean...

If you even think they play in the same role I don't even know what to say to you.

You are getting boring son, I KNOW that Hendo and De Bruyne don't play the same role, but I do know one has great vision, great passing and makes things happen, that's all.

He is part of the defence playing the role he does.

Didn't say he wasn't.

Didn't say he wasn't.

 

You are getting boring son, I KNOW that Hendo and De Bruyne don't play the same role, but I do know one has great vision, great passing and makes things happen, that's all.

Yes but you're just proving one of my initial points. If you judge a fish on it's ability to climb a tree it's not going to come out well. We should not be comparing him to De Bruyne, he does not have the same role or attacking freedom. He should be compared to Fernandinho as he fills the same roles, as the statistics I posted earlier show, he holds up very well compared to someone else asked to do the job he is doing for us.

And just to make it clear, I am not saying Henderson is better than KDB, he may well be the best player in the league this season, absolutely spectacular talent.

Yes but you're just proving one of my initial points. If you judge a fish on it's ability to climb a tree it's not going to come out well.

That got a grin
Though am waiting to hear about some south american tree climbing fish...

I have re-watched the first half of Utd, and those spaces do exist, but very limited vs Utd, here are the missed opportunities from Hendo. The minutes are up there so you can see how the play flows too.


**Note: The black lines are the passes he could have made**

As I said, you can see a lot more vs Palace (10 missed opportunities in the 1st half). I actually think those passes would be made by the likes of Lucas, Jorginho etc.

He is getting the opportunities to make those passes, but he doesn't because he is not capable. Not even having Napoli's front 3, Allan and Hamsik in the middle would we see Hendo distributing like Jorginho, he is just too slow and safe as he is not a natural ball player and not a #6.

Er yeh - thanks for this 

I I’ve see  seen it all now

Yes but you're just proving one of my initial points. If you judge a fish on it's ability to climb a tree it's not going to come out well. We should not be comparing him to De Bruyne, he does not have the same role or attacking freedom. He should be compared to Fernandinho as he fills the same roles, as the statistics I posted earlier show, he holds up very well compared to someone else asked to do the job he is doing for us.

And just to make it clear, I am not saying Henderson is better than KDB, he may well be the best player in the league this season, absolutely spectacular talent.

F****** right we shouldn't  .

I have re-watched the first half of Utd, and those spaces do exist, but very limited vs Utd, here are the missed opportunities from Hendo. The minutes are up there so you can see how the play flows too.


**Note: The black lines are the passes he could have made**

As I said, you can see a lot more vs Palace (10 missed opportunities in the 1st half). I actually think those passes would be made by the likes of Lucas, Jorginho etc.

He is getting the opportunities to make those passes, but he doesn't because he is not capable. Not even having Napoli's front 3, Allan and Hamsik in the middle would we see Hendo distributing like Jorginho, he is just too slow and safe as he is not a natural ball player and not a #6.

If there were forum medals mate, you deserve one for re-watching that sh!te.

Yes but you're just proving one of my initial points. If you judge a fish on it's ability to climb a tree it's not going to come out well. We should not be comparing him to De Bruyne, he does not have the same role or attacking freedom. He should be compared to Fernandinho as he fills the same roles, as the statistics I posted earlier show, he holds up very well compared to someone else asked to do the job he is doing for us.

And just to make it clear, I am not saying Henderson is better than KDB, he may well be the best player in the league this season, absolutely spectacular talent.

My initial point was De Bruyne has more assists in one game than Hendo has in approx 100 games, yes Hendo does nor have the same freedom, but Hendo has not always been a DM, far from it, just stating his lack of a killer pass, and lack of assists, he gets into decent areas at times, but just does not have the ability unfortunately, I was at the game on sat and where I was sat we were getting so frustrated by his safe sideways passing, when he had time and space at times, never rated him

I have re-watched the first half of Utd, and those spaces do exist, but very limited vs Utd, here are the missed opportunities from Hendo. The minutes are up there so you can see how the play flows too.


**Note: The black lines are the passes he could have made**

As I said, you can see a lot more vs Palace (10 missed opportunities in the 1st half). I actually think those passes would be made by the likes of Lucas, Jorginho etc.

He is getting the opportunities to make those passes, but he doesn't because he is not capable. Not even having Napoli's front 3, Allan and Hamsik in the middle would we see Hendo distributing like Jorginho, he is just too slow and safe as he is not a natural ball player and not a #6.

Pretty safe to assume that Jordan Henderson won't ever be appearing on A Question of Sport's 'What happened next?' segment.

If there were forum medals mate, you deserve one for re-watching that sh!te.

Got it recorded if i fancy a kip