Is it Rafa or the players??

I have been a mega fan of Rafa since he took over at the helm of LFC, despite his somewhat dubious decisions in the past I always have held him in the highest respect!! I say this because last season we came within a whisker of winning the title and yet this season (with almost the same team.. Alanso apart) we have taken a dive!!
It was with a heavy heart to see LFC have only four players fighting the cause against Arsenal this avo.. Torres, Kuyt, Gerrard and Carragher where were the others?
Is that the fault of Rafa, the American jokers (sorry the owners) or the players... but in all seriousness there were only four LFC players on the park today the rest were a bl**dy joke and should hang their heads in shame.
I would not be surprised to see Rafa walk away before the end of season and that would be a great shame.
Fans view would be appreciated.

To be honest mate you've got the four players completely wrong.

Stevie was acting like a school kid, constantly whinging. Kuyt I didn't actually see other than the goal. Torres was bitching again. Carra was barking orders out but didn't lead by example like he has done in the past.

The ones who showed emotion and enthusiasm tonight were Reina, Agger, Masch. Often Reina was racing to the edge of the box only to find all the outfield players standing still. Masch put himself about like he usually does and Agger did try to bring the ball out from the back only to see no movement by those in front of him so he had to ultimately hoof it forward.

As for the question Rafa or the players? It's both. We can't praise Rafa when it goes right but slag the players off when it goes wrong. It's both. Win, lose or draw - it's both!

Ive always said that I cant see past Rafa as our manager. However Im starting to worry about there being no plan b under him. No matter what game what result or what the importance he sticks to the same set up. I started a thread about changing the system because the current form, now 3 wins in 15 is not good enough for Liverpool, in fact im pretty sure its not good enough for clubs like Hull or wolves,  and I started it because of exactly the run of results were having. But most seem to think that its ok to stick with a system that worked last year.

And who am I or anyone to argue with what Rafa thinks is best. Therefore the blame has to go on the palyers doesnt it? A team full of internationals who cant get a shot on goal at home in an entire half of football in a game that is supposed to "start there season"

To be honest mate you've got the four players completely wrong.

Stevie was acting like a school kid, constantly whinging. Kuyt I didn't actually see other than the goal. Torres was bitching again. Carra was barking orders out but didn't lead by example like he has done in the past.

The ones who showed emotion and enthusiasm tonight were Reina, Agger, Masch. Often Reina was racing to the edge of the box only to find all the outfield players standing still. Masch put himself about like he usually does and Agger did try to bring the ball out from the back only to see no movement by those in front of him so he had to ultimately hoof it forward.

As for the question Rafa or the players? It's both. We can't praise Rafa when it goes right but slag the players off when it goes wrong. It's both. Win, lose or draw - it's both!

I agree - all Kuyt did was score (great but more required) Yossi had a terrible game.  Gerrard/Torres look a yard off the pace (but I don't know if that's fitness) Torres really needs to keep it simple till we get some points (and score) as he tries clever trickery against 2 derenders and loses the ball.  Sincerely hope the players watch the game first thing tomorrow to address the clear weaknesses.
Travelling back from the match we were discussing the need for a different formation @ home 2 up front.  But it's not Rafa's preferred and he is stubborn!! 

Its nice to see another fans view of the game this avo and thats what makes this website so good, Kuyt I have to say has been a workhorse for LFC and will always give 100%, Torres will always chase down lost causes (yes he does sulk now and then) Carragher has played over 600+ games and is another who will always give100%, but the man I feel most sorry for is Stevie G, yes is is Capt Marvel but even he cannot keep on pulling LFC up by the scruff of the neck and winning games single handed!!
To be honest Rafa picks the team, they are highly paid and badly let the fans down, whose to blame?

To be honest mate you've got the four players completely wrong.

Stevie was acting like a school kid, constantly whinging. Kuyt I didn't actually see other than the goal. Torres was bitching again. Carra was barking orders out but didn't lead by example like he has done in the past.

The ones who showed emotion and enthusiasm tonight were Reina, Agger, Masch. Often Reina was racing to the edge of the box only to find all the outfield players standing still. Masch put himself about like he usually does and Agger did try to bring the ball out from the back only to see no movement by those in front of him so he had to ultimately hoof it forward.

As for the question Rafa or the players? It's both. We can't praise Rafa when it goes right but slag the players off when it goes wrong. It's both. Win, lose or draw - it's both!

There is so many contributing factors to our indifferent start to the season that you can not really lay the blame at any one door.

Failure to invest significantly in the squad over the last two years.

Players form/attitude/consistency/injuries

Rafa selections/tactics/substitutions/stubborness

Luck injuries/beachballs/decisions going against us

Creativity

Defense

Lack of squad depth.

Creativity

Lack of squad depth.

Pacheco is creative. Where was he today? And he answers, partly, the squad depth question as well. A lad who in a short time on the pitch on Wednesday cried give me a chance but his reward? Left out of the next matchday squad

There's a post match thread to talk about todays defeat. So let's keep it on topic please.

Well said RedLFCBlood.

Bloody hell mate ()....... What question do we answer first?
I will have to get my thinking cap on !!
But yes you are so right there is no easy solution.

There is so many contributing factors to our indifferent start to the season that you can not really lay the blame at any one door.

Failure to invest significantly in the squad over the last two years.

Players form/attitude/consistency/injuries

Rafa selections/tactics/substitutions/stubborness

Luck injuries/beachballs/decisions going against us

Creativity

Defense

Lack of squad depth.

There is so many contributing factors to our indifferent start to the season that you can not really lay the blame at any one door.

Failure to invest significantly in the squad over the last two years.

Players form/attitude/consistency/injuries

Rafa selections/tactics/substitutions/stubborness

Luck injuries/beachballs/decisions going against us

Creativity

Defense

Lack of squad depth.

Good point mate,I'll go with that as my answer.But as each disappointment appears,Rafa must increasingly shoulder the blame, or do something to rectify it.His current first team squad needs sorting in january,as we are now chasing a 4th place ambition.

To be honest I think you can carry two or three of the above in to every game and pick up enough points to stay competitive but when they are all heaped up on you at once your going to struggle whether your Liverpool FC or Hartlepool United.

Hi mate.. If Rafa walks who do LFC replace him with?
You raised several excellent points and non are easy to answer,I think its soley down to some of the players that Shankley and Paisley would never have dreamed of having on the tem sheet leave alone the bench !!

Good point mate,I'll go with that as my answer.But as each disappointment appears,Rafa must increasingly shoulder the blame, or do something to rectify it.His current first team squad needs sorting in january,as we are now chasing a 4th place ambition.

Rafa coached the same bunch of players to 86 points last season.

Injuries have no doubt played a part we should accept that.

My gut feeling is that the primary reason for our stuttering start is poor players performances.  Now, maybe Rafa isn't a great motivator of players - I don't know.  That may be a criticism that could be levelled at him. But my instinct from watching some of our performances compared to that of late last season is that some of those same players are putting in far less impressive performances.

If the players put the same performance in the second half as they did the first they would have won today.

I remember with Houllier you could tell the manager had taken us as far as he could - that the players simply weren't good enough.  This time around I feel like the players are not putting in the shift required.

Rafa coached the same bunch of players to 86 points last season.

Injuries have no doubt played a part we should accept that.

My gut feeling is that the primary reason for our stuttering start is poor players performances.  Now, maybe Rafa isn't a great motivator of players - I don't know.  That may be a criticism that could be levelled at him. But my instinct from watching some of our performances compared to that of late last season is that some of those same players are putting in far less impressive performances.

If the players put the same performance in the second half as they did the first they would have won today.

I remember with Houllier you could tell the manager had taken us as far as he could - that the players simply weren't good enough.  This time around I feel like the players are not putting in the shift required.

That's my point JD.IMO Rafa is a better manager than GH and of course he already knows the  shortcomings of the squad.So in January if things are not where they should be,I would expect him to make the necessary changes with the financial support of the owners,or if not I would respect his decision  to leave.

That's my point JD.IMO Rafa is a better manager than GH and of course he already knows the  shortcomings of the squad.So in January if things are not where they should be,I would expect him to make the necessary changes with the financial support of the owners,or if not I would respect his decision  to leave.

Roy mate were talking about signing James Beattie if thats the changes we need to  make well then were fooked!

Probably a mix of both, rafa had his (probably) full strength team out with a good attacking format, once on the pitch though the players have to have the passion to win, didn't look it tonight, too many passes going astray. Maybe Rafa should get back to basics at training, get them back to the old 5 a sides that Shankly loved, keep it simple.

Hi mate.. If Rafa walks who do LFC replace him with?
You raised several excellent points and non are easy to answer,I think its soley down to some of the players that Shankley and Paisley would never have dreamed of having on the tem sheet leave alone the bench !!

I'm a Rafa man and don't want to replace him with anyone,but the players are selected ultimately by the manager and his team.To put it simply,if they don't perform they should be binned.If we were on their wages we would accept that in a shot.That responsibility is down to the manager,for me he will be judged on his achievements at the end of the season,if no top four he has to go,because the gobsh*te owners have made that a financial pre-requisite of our survival.The consequence of this scenario are beyond belief.Liverpool Football Club with a "puppet " manager in control swerves towards a Leeds Scenario.

Roy mate were talking about signing James Beattie if thats the changes we need to  make well then were fooked!

Agreed mate ,that's not the sort of changes I personally want to see.

You are so right !!  
Where are the past masters[ of the game of Pass and Move (like of Jan Molby).
I suppose the likes Shankley, Paisley and dare I say the great Brian Clough the money men are the forgotten heroes of football.
The money men have ruined not only LFC but all football in general (including bl**dy Sky TV).
How can it be right that the working mans game can only be viewed by those able to afford Sky Sports subscription?
LFC has (like many other clubs) fallen under the spell of owners who promised so much but in reality delivered bugger all>
Its us the fans who support LFC not the so called owners !! quote author=joemack link=topic=26031.msg529549#msg529549 date=1260750400]
Probably a mix of both, rafa had his (probably) full strength team out with a good attacking format, once on the pitch though the players have to have the passion to win, didn't look it tonight, too many passes going astray. Maybe Rafa should get back to basics at training, get them back to the old 5 a sides that Shankly loved, keep it simple.
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rafa is going to run out of excuses soon. always the next game we will turn this ship around. just woefull performances. team selection should be based on performances. bring in guys who can deliver some passion and who give 100%. we played 45 minutes today you cant win games like that. bring in kelly ,pacheo guys who have really impressed

the toronto maple leafs [NHL HOCKEY] were woefull beginning of the seaon. then the coach threatened the players saying guys would be sent down to the minors and boy didnt the results turn around then. going to the minors mean deep pay cuts and riding the bus on long trips. wish they had this in the epl

Thats a good point wallbanger. Players in the current XI starting to think that they are undroppable. We need to reward those playing well - Pacheco, Ngog, Ayala (in his first game) because its not fair that they can do well yet not be in the squad next game and players who are consistanly not performing still play in the XI.

Players like Kuyt, Benayoun, Aurelio, Lucas can definatly be dropped and replaced, this would solve two issues
a) players want/desire/drive to be in the team giving 120% week in week out every minute of every match
b) squad depth, by rewarding good performance from the likes of Pacheco they will improve and be better next time called upon

rafa is going to run out of excuses soon. always the next game we will turn this ship around. just woefull performances. team selection should be based on performances. bring in guys who can deliver some passion and who give 100%. we played 45 minutes today you cant win games like that. bring in kelly ,pacheo guys who have really impressed

They've played one game each for gods sake! They dont deserve to replace lads like Johnson etc.