Houllier's last squad v Rafa's

A bit of talk over the last few days concerning the squads left to both managers.

Andy Gray, who's opinion on football I value less than my missus, seems to have started it all up again and a few on here seem to go along with the theory.

Just thought I'd post the two squads together so everyone can see for themselves what was left to each manager.

Liverpool squad 2003-2004 Houlliers last season

1 Jerzy Dudek
2 Stephane Henchoz
3 Steve Finnan
4 Sami Hyypia
5 Milan Baros
7 Harry Kewell
9 El Hadji Diouf
10 Michael Owen
11 Vladimir Smicer
13 Danny Murphy
15 Salif Diao
16 Dietmar Hamann
17 Steven Gerrard
18 John Arne Riise
20 Anthony Le Tallec
21 Djimi Traore
22 Chris Kirkland
23 Jamie Carragher
24 Florent Sinama-Pongolle
25 Igor Biscan
28 Bruno Cheyrou
29 Patrice Luzi
32 John Welsh
- Emile Heskey
- Niel Mellor
- John Otsemebor

Liverpool squad 2009-2010 season rafas last

1 Diego Cavalieri
2 Glen Johnson
4 Alberto Aquilani
5 Daniel Agger
8 Steven Gerrard
9 Fernando Torres
10 Andriy Voronin
11 Albert Riera
15 Yossi Benayoun
16 Sotirios Kyrgiakos
17 Maxi Rodriguez
18 Dirk Kuyt
19 Ryan Babel
20 Javier Mascherano
21 Lucas Leiva
22 Emiliano Insua
23 Jamie Carragher
24 David Ngog
25 Pepe Reina
26 Jay Spearing
27 Philipp Degen
28 Damien Plessis
29 Krisztian Nemeth
30 Charles Itandje
31 Nabil El Zhar
32 Stephen Darby
34 Martin Kelly
36 Steven Irwin
37 Martin Skrtel
39 Nathan Eccleston
40 Daniel Sanchez Ayala
41 Martin Hansen
42 Peter Gulacsi
43 Dean Bouzanis
47 Daniel Pacheco

I don't know how any sane fan can look at that list and argue that Roy inherited a worse side and if you can I'd be interested to hear you justify it!!

I'm not sure if this should be in anither thread mods, just thought it would be good to have a clear picture of the squads.

agree 100%

I heard those fuckwits on SKY say the same thing.

Richard Keys thinks Gray is the ultimate tactician, motivator and general all round football icon whose knowledge on all things football knows no bounds.

Then again Keys does come from the animal kingdom so it is to be expected really.

Pair of cu*ts though still....

You said it. Andy Gray is not just being bitter he is doing what all 'pundits' do these days. they go for easy, devisive banter. They stir up irrational tribalism to sell units. It is a disturbing trend. They don't put themselves on the line by
explaining 'their' point of view, they just 'pose the question'. It is pointless, If andy gray coached a team he would be useless and he doesn't offer any analysis. So don't worry about it. Houlllier did what he could Rafa did what he could. If we were Real Madrid the list of players would have been more impressive on both counts.

Didnt the little idiot not say back in 2004/2005 that our squad was the weakest it has been for 3-4 years and that Rafa has a job on his hands.

The mans only knowledge of football is what he hears and watches on Sky Sports News!

 Well the first thing which strikes you between the eyes is that one of the squads has 32 players, and one has 47. Significant? Well perhaps, perhaps not, but certainly the latter one offers up more of the "options and possibilities" which we saw explored in every which way over Benitez's six year tenure.

 Another thing which is striking (though not necessarily wrong) is that the players already signed on pre-contracts aren't included. The squad Rafa inherited included Cisse for example, and at 14 million quid he is a fairly significant omission. Although he was largely a poor player, he did score important goals for Benitez's Liverpool, not least one in the FA Cup final which went some way towards pulling us back from a 2-0 deficit. Much like the Champions League final where we found opurselves in a 3-0 deficit, it was obviously very much the Steven Gerrard influence which hauled us to eventual glory, but nonetheless Cisse's contribution was significant once the "tactical masterplan" had unravelled somewhat. 

 Andrea Dossena had already been sold thank God long before Hodgson arrived (which is the point surely), Masherano had long since decided he didn't want to play for us anymore, Albert Riera's toys were all over the floor, Alberto Aquilani had a broken fingernail and splinters in his erse from sitting on the bench, while Nemeth had long since depated to a Kleftiko bar overseas.  The Hodgson squad was also about to be graced by the arrival of Milan Jovanovic too, signed before the manager got here for 80K a week and no doubt a 3 million quid signing on fee.

 Which squad was better? Well, neither were much good lets be honest. Benitez in the early stages and before he completely lost the plot made some excellent signings. Alonso and Reina came straight into the first team and strengthened it, whilest Luis Garcia made some vital contributions as well. Although we completely bombed out in the league and in all other competitions, we had an amazing Champions League run and thanks to Gerrards contributions both against Olympiacos and in the final, we won the thing. Although THAT squad was weak in places, we did have a couple of half decent forwards, we did have some very good full backs and centre halves, we did have a couple of very decent central midfielders, and in Kewell we had a fitfully decent presence out wide. Carragher summed it up when he said that Houllier left a team which were used to winning things.

 The squad which Benitez left behind? Obviously a top goalkeeper and a top striker when he's fit. No obvious cover for the latter though is a minus, as is the dearth of talent available down the left side. The centre half situation needs renovation IMHO, and overall we are weak in too many areas. The Houllier final team finished fourth in the league by the skin of its teeth. The Benitez one finsihed seventh, but was IMHO capable of better than that, probably a fourth place as well.

 As such, after much pontification and waffle, I'd say there was little between the two squads left behind but if pushed I'd say the Houllier legacy was slightly better. 

You said it. Andy Gray is not just being bitter he is doing what all 'pundits' do these days. they go for easy, devisive banter. They stir up irrational tribalism to sell units. It is a disturbing trend. They don't put themselves on the line by
explaining 'their' point of view, they just 'pose the question'. It is pointless, If andy gray coached a team he would be useless and he doesn't offer any analysis. So don't worry about it. Houlllier did what he could Rafa did what he could. If we were Real Madrid the list of players would have been more impressive on both counts.

Perfect description, he has made negativity an art form.

I don't see what is there to debate about. Fernando Torres, Steven Gerrard, Daniel Agger, Javier Mascherano, Alberto Aquilani, Pepe Reina and such are overall far superior to Milan Baros, Djimi Traore, Salif Diao, Harry Kewell, Jerzy Dudek and such. Some were better in the first squad and some are better in the second.

The problem with those two squads left by both managers is, they are missing some great signings made by Rafa. Peter Crouch, Luis Garcia, Xabi Alonso and Alvaro Arbeloa are all good players who played for the club and contributed at one point in their Liverpool career.

Fair enough that Sami Hyypia, John Arne Riise, Didi Hamann and Steve Finnan were good players whom I rate very highly but they were then 31, 24, 31 and 28 years old and would have been sold (except Riise probably, really wanted to keep him) at one point by any manager. We found it difficult to replace Sami but Kyrgiakos looks like the mini-replacement for him - usually wins the aerial duels and have scored twice this season already. Fabio Aurelio is good, injury-prone but good and Dossena and Konchesky aren't too convincing. Javier Mascherano is one of the best in his position. Steve Finnan was consistent at the back and also decent going forward. Glen Johnson is awesome going forward, but not so much at the back.

We did well under Houlier. About 7 trophies? FA Cup, two League Cups, UEFA Cup, UEFA Super Cup, Community Shield and UEFA Nitro Cup but we were hardly in the Champions League. Fair enough, he groomed Stevie and Carra, gave them their debuts and make them what they are today. Also brought in the above mentioned players.

Then came Rafa. We were always in the Champions League. In his 6 seasons in charge, we reached the final (2005), first round (2006), final (2007), semi-final (2008), quarter-final (2009) but failed to qualify for knock out (2010). Aren't/weren't we the top team in Europe? In a time shorter than Houllier, Rafa managed he won 4 trophies in his FIRST three seasons - Champions League (2005), FA Cup (2006), UEFA Super Cup (2005) and Community Shield (2007). Less trophies but also made it to another Champions League Final (2007), League Cup Final (2005) and Club World Cup Championship (2005). He didn't bring out Gerrard and Carra but he brought the best out of them. He turned Stevie from a less than 10 goal-a-season midfielder to a one who averages 17 goals a season in Rafa's time here. Rafa also brought world class players to the team - Reina, Torres and Alonso.

IMO, Houllier worked with a weaker squad and managed to win us silverware. Rafa inherited that weak squad, brought in good players and also won silverware. Our new man, Roy Hodgson, inherited a squad stronger than the one Rafa inherited from Houllier but it's up to the manager to get the results and bring in the silverware - something which I don't see Roy being able to do. Pretty evident that Rafa Benitez has so far fail to live up to the expectations left at Inter Milan after Mourinho brought them the treble or the fact that despite missing 35 matches from 114 possible league apperances, Torres has a wonderful goal-scoring record but right now, he only has 5 league goals in like 15 league matches. 15/16 suggests he has played in all but one!

It's up to the managers to get the best out of the squad. It may be the majority of Houllier's players who won the Champions League but it was Rafa's tactical genius who made it happen. Funnily enough, it was his signings that play parts in our trophy wins - Garcia, Alonso and Reina (2006 FA Cup). Saying that Roy's failing to get results and performances because the majority are Rafa's players is just stupid. Oh yeah, it wasn't Rafa who signed Christian Poulsen and Paul Konchesky.

You said it. Andy Gray is not just being bitter he is doing what all 'pundits' do these days. they go for easy, devisive banter. They stir up irrational tribalism to sell units. It is a disturbing trend. They don't put themselves on the line by
explaining 'their' point of view, they just 'pose the question'. It is pointless, If andy gray coached a team he would be useless and he doesn't offer any analysis. So don't worry about it. Houlllier did what he could Rafa did what he could. If we were Real Madrid the list of players would have been more impressive on both counts.

I might be swerving off topic a bit here but....

Monday Night Football/ The last word is the most boring, self indulgent sh*te I have seen in football.

You have Andy Gray, pausing a perfectly good goal for about 5 minutes, telling us the viewer what went wrong from the defenders point of view. Except its complete F***ing bollocks.

I hadn't even seen the goals of the matches on MOTD this week, but I still couldn't be arsed watching it, I even switched off when he was running through our goals at full time, because I don't need telling from this ape why the villa defence were at fault for all 3 goals.

So yeah, anything he says on that sh*t show is bollocks. Including this line about the Rafa squad and the Houllier squad. He probs just said it because Carra did and doesn't like to annoy a 'true' scouser.

 Good post that Adran, I don't agree with most of it but good post. I didn't include the "Super Cup" or the charity shield in my analysis because I think they are irrelevent. As for Chamipons League qualification, wasn't it the case that the "top four qualify" rule was brought in late in Houlliers tenure?

 Equally, of the players you named at the start of the post there are a couple of points to make. Masherano was left behind in name only as he already had his suitcases packed (which is fine by me as I think Mereiles is a better player for us in any case), Aquilani was and is a player who is never going to make it in English football, and while Torres is obviously World Class we have no alternative strikers of any credibility. Agger I don't rate anywhere near so high as some on here, and in any case he looks to me like a lad who may well be pensioned off out of the game before much longer.

 Anyway like I said, good post although I don't agree with all of it.

Firstly that is not the sqaud Hodgson inherited, nor is it Benitez' last squad. Dossena fu**ed off in January, Hodgson didn't inherit Aurelio - he had to bring him back (still wondering why to be honest). San Jose had been sold before Hodgson got here and Benayoun left a day after Roy joined because his transfer was already done.

And it's not Houllier's final squad because players such as Mellor, Harrison and Otsemboar are missing off the list. So if you're gonna start these sort of threads, get the information spot on to begin with.

Firstly that is not the sqaud Hodgson inherited, nor is it Benitez' last squad. Dossena fu**ed off in January, Hodgson didn't inherit Aurelio - he had to bring him back (still wondering why to be honest). San Jose had been sold before Hodgson got here and Benayoun left a day after Roy joined because his transfer was already done.

And it's not Houllier's final squad because players such as Mellor, Harrison and Otsemboar are missing off the list.

Ok DLS they are the squads that we had in Houlliers and Rafa's last season and I'll admit there are a few players who Rafa and Roy didn't inherit but the majority of the squad list is right give or take the few players you mentioned.

I copied the squads from another site and am busy at the minute and didn't have time to double check them but it was just to give an example of what the squads were like for both managers as it has been discussed over the last day or two on the forum.

So if you're gonna start these sort of threads, get the information spot on to begin with.

Also if any of the mods have a problem with me starting this thread or the accuracy of it they will pull me up on it as I don't need to be told what I can and can't do by you mate!

  Benitez in the early stages and before he completely lost the plot

And where exactly did Rafa 'completely lost the plot'?

Most people posting dont feel the need to go to thew history books to get accurate info the general point of their post is easy to understand.
Rafa could have also sent men to the moon but you Rafa bashers would still counter with yeah but he wasnt the first.
The football Houlier left us with was dire  boring defensive and without Michael Owen in the team we would have been in serious trouble.I'd take Torres over Cisse and Pepe over Dudek any day of the week.

Ok DLS they are the squads that we had in Houlliers and Rafa's last season and I'll admit there are a few players who Rafa and Roy didn't inherit but the majority of the squad list is right give or take the few players you mentioned.

I copied the squads from another site and am busy at the minute and didn't have time to double check them but it was just to give an example of what the squads were like for both managers as it has been discussed over the last day or two on the forum.

It doesn't need double checking, it's common sense. And you can't be too busy if you're able to copy, paste and start the thread.

These type of threads, need the information to be correct. Otherwise what's the point? Lets compare squads but actually not give the right squads to compare isn't really on now is it?

Also if any of the mods have a problem with me starting this thread or the accuracy of it they will pull me up on it as I don't need to be told what I can and can't do by you mate!

Well you do need to be told because the information at the top is wrong. Makes no odds who tells you, fact of the matter is, it's wrong.

If you want an answer though, then Houllier had a better front line in terms of quality in reserve. I'd prefer to see Mellor, Pongolle, Heskey, Baros and Owen than Torres, Ngog and erm.... And in the same way, Benitez' side had better cover at the heart of the defence - Skrtel, Agger, Sotis and Carra compared to Sami, Henchoz and Carra.

Neither squad was good enough and neither are drastically better or worse than the other. They're both short by a great deal of Liverpool standard, that's why the manager's ultimately paid the price and had to go because the squads they'd built after 6 years weren't good enough.

Most people posting dont feel the need to go to thew history books to get accurate info the general point of their post is easy to understand.
Rafa could have also sent men to the moon but you Rafa bashers would still counter with yeah but he wasnt the first.
The football Houlier left us with was dire  boring defensive and without Michael Owen in the team we would have been in serious trouble.I'd take Torres over Cisse and Pepe over Dudek any day of the week.

Benitez' football last season was dire, where without Torres we'd of been sh*t like we where because we didn't have Torres for a great deal of the season. Benitez' final year was almost a mirror image of Houllier's final year except the Frenchman still got us into the Champions League in his final year.

I thought Houlier was sacked and Rafa resigned.

I thought Houlier was sacked and Rafa resigned.

Both left by mutual consent

You'd be wrong about the football being 'dire' in Rafa's final year.  Our away form was dire, our attacking impetus was dire (partially due to an over reliance on Steven Gerrard who was woeful and not dropped all season).  Our home form and our defensive record (yes, even with Insua and Johnson as our fullbacks) was fine.

It doesn't need double checking, it's common sense.

If I copied the squad from another site and it was from the beginning of the seasons not the end then I think you'll find my mistake was not double checking that they were right.

I found the squad list, presumed they were right and posted them. That is not a lack of common sense it's a mistake on my part which I will apologise to all who have posted on here for slightly getting the squads wrong.

But the squad lists do give a good idea of what Rafa and the Roy had to work with give or take the few mistakes that you pointed out.

Well you do need to be told because the information at the top is wrong. Makes no odds who tells you, fact of the matter is, it's wrong.

I don't want to fall out DLS as I always try to stay clear of petty arguments on here but I just didn't like the way you went about posting my mistake.

Like I said there are plenty of mods about who's role is to correct mistakes and I don't need to be told if I can or can't start threads.

I'm sure I'm not the first who has made a mistake in quoting or copying something that turns out to be inaccurate.

You'd be wrong about the football being 'dire' in Rafa's final year.  Our away form was dire, our attacking impetus was dire (partially due to an over reliance on Steven Gerrard who was woeful and not dropped all season).  Our home form and our defensive record (yes, even with Insua and Johnson as our fullbacks) was fine.

No our defence wasn't fine, our goalkeeper was fine. That's why, without a shadow of a doubt, Reina was our player of the year. He was the reason we kept such a good defensive record - as well as seven clean sheets in nine games without Johnson at right back.

Our attacking impetus was dire due to sh*t wingers, a central midfield pairing who didn't do a great deal going forward, an injury prone forward and Gerrard being out of sorts.

Gerard's final season was 60pts and +18 goal diff Rafa's was 63 points and + 26 goal diff. The difference was 60 pts got you 4th as apposed to 63 pts getting you 7th.
The atmosphere at Anfield is a good barometer of the style of football being played and Gerards final season Anfield particularily on night matches was very quiet and i cant say the same about last seasons home games. We will never agree on this a small amount of people just dont like Rafa and will not credit him where he deserves credit.Gerard ( who taught at my school) was never the same after his heart problems and I dont think less of him than I do of Rafa or any of our previous managers they all gave their best and they all deserve a place in our hearts.

If I copied the squad from another site and it was from the beginning of the seasons not the end then I think you'll find my mistake was not double checking that they were right.

I found the squad list, presumed they were right and posted them. That is not a lack of common sense it's a mistake on my part which I will apologise to all who have posted on here for slightly getting the squads wrong.

But the squad lists do give a good idea of what Rafa and the Roy had to work with give or take the few mistakes that you pointed out.

I don't want to fall out DLS as I always try to stay clear of petty arguments on here but I just didn't like the way you went about posting my mistake.

Like I said there are plenty of mods about who's role is to correct mistakes and I don't need to be told if I can or can't start threads.

I'm sure I'm not the first who has made a mistake in quoting or copying something that turns out to be inaccurate.

We're not falling out, I just believe these sort of threads need to be spot on in terms of information as that's what we're judging.