Benitez's Real Legacy

Funny how even Kenny gave Rafa credit for overhauling the youth system Gaz. . . You you who constantly puts forward the case for the old system ignores this to continue your flat refusal to give Rafa credit. Truth is the one man who has seen us at our best and worse can acknowledge that Rafa got this right. That says more than any of our debates ever will

Funny how even Kenny gave Rafa credit for overhauling the youth system Gaz. . . You you who constantly puts forward the case for the old system ignores this to continue your flat refusal to give Rafa credit. Truth is the one man who has seen us at our best and worse can acknowledge that Rafa got this right. That says more than any of our debates ever will

Racer mate, don't ya know that The Devil that is Rafa sacked Gazza's mate Steve Heighway when he reorganised the Academy. 

This is a personal vendetta on Gazza's part.  He is someone that will never, while he has breath in his body, accept that Rafa did anything good for LFC.

Racer mate, don't ya know that The Devil that is Rafa sacked Gazza's mate Steve Heighway when he reorganised the Academy. 

This is a personal vendetta on Gazza's part.  He is someone that will never, while he has breath in his body, accept that Rafa did anything good for LFC.

He's that much of n*b - yeah?

He's that much of n*b - yeah?

I reckon Stuey.

Racer mate, don't ya know that The Devil that is Rafa sacked Gazza's mate Steve Heighway when he reorganised the Academy. 

This is a personal vendetta on Gazza's part.  He is someone that will never, while he has breath in his body, accept that Rafa did anything good for LFC.

Wrong he did some good, he left

Wrong he did some good, he left

WUM

I know Debs. Always good to remind people of his unwaving bias though. No doubt when youth once again can be utilised for the first team on a regular basis we can thank Segura, Rodolfo, McMahon, Kenny and the man who brought them together not so long ago. . . Rafa - before anyone says John Henry

Wrong he did some good, he left a very excellent academy,i for one will be very greatfull to rafa and wish him back one day and i have to admit i love rafa but am scared to admit it because my freinds wont play with me anymore.

Fixed it for you.

And hatred always leads to bitterness and disappointment.

Imagine in a few years when these youngsters are regular first teamers and we win the title - how can he bring himself to celebrate knowing that it's an acknowledgement of Rafa's work.

Poor guy, that must be an awful situation to put yourself in  

It appears that some criticism of the youth set up (and the person that initiated the changes) is centred on 'yeah but how many of them will break through to the first team.'  A valid point, but not the be all and end.  As Kenny said himself, not all, if any, will break through.  The point is, the youth set up had a massive overhaul with some key people brought in to establish a playing philosophy and ongoing recruitment of youth players at the club long term. 

At the time Heighway left, there were rumours he was less interested in developing foreign players.  I am not sure how true that is.  His wiki page says he 'retired' from LFC in 2007.

F**k me sideways again, it's like a F***ing handbag fight in here. I've read every post in this topic so far and one thing has stood out more than anything.

Want to know what it is?.

I'll tell you then. Not one poster has thanked or credited José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell for the most important input into the youth system. As pointed out in the OP, the men that brought through players like Messi and Fabregas through the ranks at Barcelona. Well done to Rafa for securing their services, it was a masterstroke but it seems that almost everyone wants to credit Rafa for everything. Take a look at yourselves, this whole 'Rafa is God' bullshit is consuming the forum, so blind in belief that people forget the people behind the scenes who do all the ground work.

I've pretty much had a gutsful of the constant 'Rafa' inferrals in almost every thread recently. This won't stop me posting, even though i know that many don't want to read an unbiased viewpoint on the manager they held in such high esteem. I'll await the the usual 'pack' that will now try and shoot me down because i don't follow the majority. The same majority that paper over the cracks that appeared so glaringly during Rafa's last season in charge. We all know the truth behind Rafa's dismissal, he couldn't conquer the Premier League, some say that the Istanbul victory was an insurance policy, i'd go with that to be honest.

May i reiterate, i am not a 'Rafa hater', though many here will tar me with that brush and that is their prerogative. I saw a manager that was so obsessed with his philosophy that his failure to adapt or break from it ultimately led to his downfall. I am grateful for the Champions League and FA Cup, as grateful as i am to Dudek and Gerrard. I can look at Rafa objectively, that doesn't mean that i hate him.

Different people look at Rafa in different ways. Huyton Red has stated that Rafa gave him the greatest night of his life in Istanbul. Fair play, that was one hell of a night. I'm different, my greatest moment as a Liverpool fan was given by Kenny Dalglish. I was at Stamford Bridge the day we won our last league title in 1990, that was my greatest moment. So we have different views, no problem with that, it's the way it is.

I'll always judge a manager on the League, Rafa was a master in Europe but he never quite understood the League, his underestimation of 'supposedly' weaker opponents proved to be his achilles heel. As a fan myself i prioritise the League over anything else, it doesn't mean that i think any less of the other competitions as i want us to win every game we play. The Liverpool i was brought up on won League titles for fun. Ask any manager and they will always say that the League is always their number one priority. I think Rafa prioritised Europe before the League, that is just my opinion.

The real point of this post is that people have to try and understand why many fans have a gripe with Rafa. It doesn't mean they hate him and it doesn't warrant fellow fans trying to belittle other fans either. Just look at what Kenny is building here, he has brought everyone together as a unit. Every other word is 'we' or 'us'. We are a collective again, a family, a bastion, an institution.

Rafa did many great things during his tenure, but don't forget José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell, they deserve just as much praise as Rafa does.

F**k me sideways again, it's like a f**king handbag fight in here. I've read every post in this topic so far and one thing has stood out more than anything.

Want to know what it is?.

I'll tell you then. Not one poster has thanked or credited José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell for the most important input into the youth system. As pointed out in the OP, the men that brought through players like Messi and Fabregas through the ranks at Barcelona. Well done to Rafa for securing their services, it was a masterstroke but it seems that almost everyone wants to credit Rafa for everything. Take a look at yourselves, this whole 'Rafa is God' bullshit is consuming the forum, so blind in belief that people forget the people behind the scenes who do all the ground work.

I've pretty much had a gutsful of the constant 'Rafa' inferrals in almost every thread recently. This won't stop me posting, even though I know that many don't want to read an unbiased viewpoint on the manager they held in such high esteem. I'll await the the usual 'pack' that will now try and shoot me down because I don't follow the majority. The same majority that paper over the cracks that appeared so glaringly during Rafa's last season in charge. We all know the truth behind Rafa's dismissal, he couldn't conquer the Premier League, some say that the Istanbul victory was an insurance policy, I'd go with that to be honest.

May I reiterate, I am not a 'Rafa hater', though many here will tar me with that brush and that is their prerogative. I saw a manager that was so obsessed with his philosophy that his failure to adapt or break from it ultimately led to his downfall. I am grateful for the Champions League and FA Cup, as grateful as I am to Dudek and Gerrard. I can look at Rafa objectively, that doesn't mean that I hate him.

Different people look at Rafa in different ways. Huyton Red has stated that Rafa gave him the greatest night of his life in Istanbul. Fair play, that was one hell of a night. I'm different, my greatest moment as a Liverpool fan was given by Kenny Dalglish. I was at Stamford Bridge the day we won our last league title in 1990, that was my greatest moment. So we have different views, no problem with that, it's the way it is.

I'll always judge a manager on the League, Rafa was a master in Europe but he never quite understood the League, his underestimation of 'supposedly' weaker opponents proved to be his achilles heel. As a fan myself I prioritise the League over anything else, it doesn't mean that I think any less of the other competitions as I want us to win every game we play. The Liverpool I was brought up on won League titles for fun. Ask any manager and they will always say that the League is always their number one priority. I think Rafa prioritised Europe before the League, that is just my opinion.

The real point of this post is that people have to try and understand why many fans have a gripe with Rafa. It doesn't mean they hate him and it doesn't warrant fellow fans trying to belittle other fans either. Just look at what Kenny is building here, he has brought everyone together as a unit. Every other word is 'we' or 'us'. We are a collective again, a family, a bastion, an institution.

Rafa did many great things during his tenure, but don't forget José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell, they deserve just as much praise as Rafa does.

This !! All day. Superb post and +1 !

The academy is looking up and we have some fantastic talent and Kenny is the man to bring it through...but there are many that deserve credit and rafa is just one of many!

Hardly a "turning point in our history", as Dick Buxton is claiming!

You mean re-writing, take someone else's piece, change a few words, then add your name to the top.

That's how journalism works these days!

I did thank our youth team coaches, McMahon also. The reason it's veered towards the Rafa defense is because all the haters have arrived in to say Rafa deserves no credit, which is far from the truth. The men there obviously deserve praise for how the system is being run, Kenny included, but I see no reason why we should erase Rafa from memory when discussing the overhaul of the youth system

Personally my view of Benitez hasn't and will never change, any comparison with Kenny in charge is futile because of the profound issues regarding the owners that existed when Rafa was here. H&G would undermine him at every opportunity and any success achieved was in spite of and not because of their involvement. Kenny has the unanimous backing of the owners and the Torres sale is an illustration of the point-if he had been sold under the liars ownership how much of the £50m would Rafa have got hold of? If other transactions then are anything to go by very little-whereas the full amount has been used to improve the squad if anything and give Kenny a fighting chance.
On the question of the academy the appointment of Segura and Borrell was totally instigated with great foresight by Rafa and while I could never detract from the amazing work they are doing some credit for the healthy state of the academy must surely go to Benitez.      

Personally my view of Benitez hasn't and will never change, any comparison with Kenny in charge is futile because of the profound issues regarding the owners that existed when Rafa was here. H&G would undermine him at every opportunity and any success achieved was in spite of and not because of their involvement. Kenny has the unanimous backing of the owners and the Torres sale is an illustration of the point-if he had been sold under the liars ownership how much of the £50m would Rafa have got hold of? If other transactions then are anything to go by very little-whereas the full amount has been used to improve the squad if anything and give Kenny a fighting chance.
On the question of the academy the appointment of Segura and Borell was totally instigated with great forsight by Rafa and while I could never detract from the amazing work they are doing some credit for the healthy state of the academy must surely go to Benitez.     

Would love to know how much juggling rafa had to do to get segura,borrell and dalglish back at the club,that alone is a masterstroke on its own.

Personally my view of Benitez hasn't and will never change, any comparison with Kenny in charge is futile because of the profound issues regarding the owners that existed when Rafa was here. H&G would undermine him at every opportunity and any success achieved was in spite of and not because of their involvement. Kenny has the unanimous backing of the owners and the Torres sale is an illustration of the point-if he had been sold under the liars ownership how much of the £50m would Rafa have got hold of? If other transactions then are anything to go by very little-whereas the full amount has been used to improve the squad if anything and give Kenny a fighting chance.
On the question of the academy the appointment of Segura and Borell was totally instigated with great foresight by Rafa and while I could never detract from the amazing work they are doing some credit for the healthy state of the academy must surely go to Benitez.      

Good points there stuey but I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I can strip away the owners, the debt, the constant power struggle.

I evaluate Rafa from a footballing perspective, how he managed the team, how he changed tactics, how he used the players at his disposal, etc.

I always post on Rafa as a football manager. Not as a nice man, not as a martyr, not as a fellow Scouser, not as a great man who does a lot of charity work and not as fine upstanding member of the community. While I respect him a great deal for the points I mentioned in the last sentence I will ultimately judge him as a football manager.

As that was his job then I feel it is only fair that he is judged by his ability to manage a Football Club and nothing else. Is this not how a manager should be truly judged?. There were too many factions under Rafa, something that Kenny has eliminated, as the sale of Torres proved.

F**k me sideways again, it's like a f**king handbag fight in here. I've read every post in this topic so far and one thing has stood out more than anything.

Want to know what it is?.

I'll tell you then. Not one poster has thanked or credited José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell for the most important input into the youth system. As pointed out in the OP, the men that brought through players like Messi and Fabregas through the ranks at Barcelona. Well done to Rafa for securing their services, it was a masterstroke but it seems that almost everyone wants to credit Rafa for everything. Take a look at yourselves, this whole 'Rafa is God' bullshit is consuming the forum, so blind in belief that people forget the people behind the scenes who do all the ground work.

I've pretty much had a gutsful of the constant 'Rafa' inferrals in almost every thread recently. This won't stop me posting, even though I know that many don't want to read an unbiased viewpoint on the manager they held in such high esteem. I'll await the the usual 'pack' that will now try and shoot me down because I don't follow the majority. The same majority that paper over the cracks that appeared so glaringly during Rafa's last season in charge. We all know the truth behind Rafa's dismissal, he couldn't conquer the Premier League, some say that the Istanbul victory was an insurance policy, I'd go with that to be honest.

May I reiterate, I am not a 'Rafa hater', though many here will tar me with that brush and that is their prerogative. I saw a manager that was so obsessed with his philosophy that his failure to adapt or break from it ultimately led to his downfall. I am grateful for the Champions League and FA Cup, as grateful as I am to Dudek and Gerrard. I can look at Rafa objectively, that doesn't mean that I hate him.

Different people look at Rafa in different ways. Huyton Red has stated that Rafa gave him the greatest night of his life in Istanbul. Fair play, that was one hell of a night. I'm different, my greatest moment as a Liverpool fan was given by Kenny Dalglish. I was at Stamford Bridge the day we won our last league title in 1990, that was my greatest moment. So we have different views, no problem with that, it's the way it is.

I'll always judge a manager on the League, Rafa was a master in Europe but he never quite understood the League, his underestimation of 'supposedly' weaker opponents proved to be his achilles heel. As a fan myself I prioritise the League over anything else, it doesn't mean that I think any less of the other competitions as I want us to win every game we play. The Liverpool I was brought up on won League titles for fun. Ask any manager and they will always say that the League is always their number one priority. I think Rafa prioritised Europe before the League, that is just my opinion.

The real point of this post is that people have to try and understand why many fans have a gripe with Rafa. It doesn't mean they hate him and it doesn't warrant fellow fans trying to belittle other fans either. Just look at what Kenny is building here, he has brought everyone together as a unit. Every other word is 'we' or 'us'. We are a collective again, a family, a bastion, an institution.

Rafa did many great things during his tenure, but don't forget José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell, they deserve just as much praise as Rafa does.

Calm down Mrs Doubtfire...

Its obvious how this post went...

Positive article about Benitez,
Praise from fans,
Rafa haters come out the woodwork..


Nobody was saying Rafa was solely responsible for our current progress with the youngster's.. And you know this.. Its obvious it would naturally progress into a pro/anti Rafa tussle..

So put your knitting needles down and keep it movin lad...

Calm down Mrs Doubtfire...

Its obvious how this post went...

Positive article about Benitez,
Praise from fans,
Rafa haters come out the woodwork..


Nobody was saying Rafa was solely responsible for our current progress with the youngster's.. And you know this.. Its obvious it would naturally progress into a pro/anti Rafa tussle..

So put your knitting needles down and keep it movin lad...

Your wit knows no bounds sir. And as for the 'anti' and 'pro' Rafa brigade, it's pretty F***ing sad really. I am neither 'pro' nor 'anti' Rafa. I see Rafa for what he really was, a good manager that wouldn't learn from his mistakes to become a 'great' manager. Hopefully he will learn from his mistakes and come back a better manager, if he doesn't then he'll suffer by the philosophy that he tried to create.

Good points there stuey but I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I can strip away the owners, the debt, the constant power struggle.

I evaluate Rafa from a footballing perspective, how he managed the team, how he changed tactics, how he used the players at his disposal, etc.

I always post on Rafa as a football manager. Not as a nice man, not as a martyr, not as a fellow Scouser, not as a great man who does a lot of charity work and not as fine upstanding member of the community. While I respect him a great deal for the points I mentioned in the last sentence I will ultimately judge him as a football manager.

As that was his job then I feel it is only fair that he is judged by his ability to manage a Football Club and nothing else. Is this not how a manager should be truly judged?. There were too many factions under Rafa, something that Kenny has eliminated, as the sale of Torres proved.

Fair enough mate but the factions you speak of under Rafa's tenure were invariably the work of H&G and therefore were inoperable, he could do nothing about them- and as I posted previously the Torres sale would not have been as fortuitous for the club under the liars

F**k me sideways again, it's like a F***ing handbag fight in here. I've read every post in this topic so far and one thing has stood out more than anything.

Want to know what it is?.

I'll tell you then. Not one poster has thanked or credited José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell for the most important input into the youth system. As pointed out in the OP, the men that brought through players like Messi and Fabregas through the ranks at Barcelona. Well done to Rafa for securing their services, it was a masterstroke but it seems that almost everyone wants to credit Rafa for everything. Take a look at yourselves, this whole 'Rafa is God' bullshit is consuming the forum, so blind in belief that people forget the people behind the scenes who do all the ground work.

I've pretty much had a gutsful of the constant 'Rafa' inferrals in almost every thread recently. This won't stop me posting, even though i know that many don't want to read an unbiased viewpoint on the manager they held in such high esteem. I'll await the the usual 'pack' that will now try and shoot me down because i don't follow the majority. The same majority that paper over the cracks that appeared so glaringly during Rafa's last season in charge. We all know the truth behind Rafa's dismissal, he couldn't conquer the Premier League, some say that the Istanbul victory was an insurance policy, i'd go with that to be honest.

May i reiterate, i am not a 'Rafa hater', though many here will tar me with that brush and that is their prerogative. I saw a manager that was so obsessed with his philosophy that his failure to adapt or break from it ultimately led to his downfall. I am grateful for the Champions League and FA Cup, as grateful as i am to Dudek and Gerrard. I can look at Rafa objectively, that doesn't mean that i hate him.

Different people look at Rafa in different ways. Huyton Red has stated that Rafa gave him the greatest night of his life in Istanbul. Fair play, that was one hell of a night. I'm different, my greatest moment as a Liverpool fan was given by Kenny Dalglish. I was at Stamford Bridge the day we won our last league title in 1990, that was my greatest moment. So we have different views, no problem with that, it's the way it is.

I'll always judge a manager on the League, Rafa was a master in Europe but he never quite understood the League, his underestimation of 'supposedly' weaker opponents proved to be his achilles heel. As a fan myself i prioritise the League over anything else, it doesn't mean that i think any less of the other competitions as i want us to win every game we play. The Liverpool i was brought up on won League titles for fun. Ask any manager and they will always say that the League is always their number one priority. I think Rafa prioritised Europe before the League, that is just my opinion.

The real point of this post is that people have to try and understand why many fans have a gripe with Rafa. It doesn't mean they hate him and it doesn't warrant fellow fans trying to belittle other fans either. Just look at what Kenny is building here, he has brought everyone together as a unit. Every other word is 'we' or 'us'. We are a collective again, a family, a bastion, an institution.

Rafa did many great things during his tenure, but don't forget José Segura and Rodolfo Borrell, they deserve just as much praise as Rafa does.

Pretty much sums up my opinion, good post

Calm down Mrs Doubtfire...

Its obvious how this post went...

Positive article about Benitez,
Praise from fans,
Rafa haters come out the woodwork..


Nobody was saying Rafa was solely responsible for our current progress with the youngster's.. And you know this.. Its obvious it would naturally progress into a pro/anti Rafa tussle..

So put your knitting needles down and keep it movin lad...

Your criticism is well over the top buddy, your man there is giving a constructive comment on a former manager with no agenda implied.

Your criticism is well over the top buddy, your man there is giving a constructive comment on a former manager with no agenda implied.

This topic starts with a positive article with regards to Rafa's positive influence on the youth set up, should there be any room to criticise Benitez..?

People who find time to talk about how fans idolise Rafa (negative) in a topic like this one (positive) are self aware Rafa haters imo...
Even if they try to speak nicely of his achievements they ALWAYS finish with something negative...
I don't get fooled by the whole "Rafa was good BUT" facade ..

I don't think Hardcore gave "constructive comments on a former manager with no agenda implied" at all... The fact that he's said these comments in this topic shows imo that he has a Anti rafa agenda, despite him saying otherwise..