Jordan Henderson (Liverpool -> Al-Ettifaq (5 months) -> Ajax)

That leaves two other places in the midfield. As PM asks above me, what can henderson do that gini, Fabinho, Milner can't? Genuine question. What makes henderson so special? What makes him stand out? I wouldn't drop any of those three in favour of henderson right now and I'm completely gobsmacked if somebody genuinely would. Final thing to say is that those stats posted by Mag are just utter bollocks. We have looked much better without Henderson in the team this season, end of. In particular, Milner and Wijnaldum have looked very good alongside Keita too. That midfield three have worked really well and gelled nicely. When Henderson has played, the performances of Milner and gini have dropped considerably, especially Wijnaldum. Their stats are bound to he afffected - not that I ever take those type of stats into consideration anyway. Just a load of nonsense to be honest and they never tell the full story. Anybody can see for themselves we've played a lot better without henderson in the team.

Your rant is a bit O.T.T for me. It's really about midfield balance for me. If you play Hendo, Gigi and Milner together as a 3 you've got three lads who will run all day, they'll mark, track and tackle and recycle the ball but it's all a bit industrial. There's not much magic in that trio, all three of them are 7/10 players (despite a spike in Milner's form in recent months). Now if you play 2 from those 3 and insert Keita into the line-up suddenly it looks a lot better. You've now got hard work, industry & a platform alongside a player who plays on the turn, can pass a ball, can run with the ball and is always forward thinking.

The reason it gets a bit silly for me in this thread is because Henderson and Wjinaldum can both have the same sort of game ie. a bit average, not doing anything of note but you can guarantee it is Henderson who gets the shoeing whilst Gigi barely gets a mention even if he puts in an invisible performance. People like yourself and Ribs are bemoaning the reactions of others (and I know the defences of Hendo can be a bit over the top as well) but you kinda do the same thing in the opposite direction. It just goes to show what a polarizing player he is.

For me, I like the balance and mobility that a midfield trio of Keita, Gigi and Milner gives us right now and that would be my first choice BUT I can also understand Klopp running with Henderson AND Milner together because the back end of last season they were both superb as a tandem (which surprised me at the time). So it isn't about blindly trusting in Klopp but understanding that he (and LFC) have had success with these lads playing together in midfield together and that includes Henderson.

Keita is the star dust that needs to be sprinkled over our 'Steady Eddie' midfield and i'm fairly certain he will be entrenched as the first name on the midfield team-sheet before long. As for Fabinho, I still think he has a little ways to go and am glad Klopp is giving him time to get up to speed with the English game.   

Your rant is a bit O.T.T for me. It's really about midfield balance for me. If you play Hendo, Gigi and Milner together as a 3 you've got three lads who will run all day, they'll mark, track and tackle and recycle the ball but it's all a bit industrial. There's not much magic in that trio, all three of them are 7/10 players (despite a spike in Milner's form in recent months). Now if you play 2 from those 3 and insert Keita into the line-up suddenly it looks a lot better. You've now got hard work, industry & a platform alongside a player who plays on the turn, can pass a ball, can run with the ball and is always forward thinking.

The reason it gets a bit silly for me in this thread is because Henderson and Wjinaldum can both have the same sort of game ie. a bit average, not doing anything of note but you can guarantee it is Henderson who gets the shoeing whilst Gigi barely gets a mention even if he puts in an invisible performance. People like yourself and Ribs are bemoaning the reactions of others (and I know the defences of Hendo can be a bit over the top as well) but you kinda do the same thing in the opposite direction. It just goes to show what a polarizing player he is.

For me, I like the balance and mobility that a midfield trio of Keita, Gigi and Milner gives us right now and that would be my first choice BUT I can also understand Klopp running with Henderson AND Milner together because the back end of last season they were both superb as a tandem (which surprised me at the time). So it isn't about blindly trusting in Klopp but understanding that he (and LFC) have had success with these lads playing together in midfield together and that includes Henderson.

Keita is the star dust that needs to be sprinkled over our 'Steady Eddie' midfield and i'm fairly certain he will be entrenched as the first name on the midfield team-sheet before long. As for Fabinho, I still think he has a little ways to go and am glad Klopp is giving him time to get up to speed with the English game.   

Bit confused, what do you mean Henderson and Milner were terrific together in tandem, was that before or after Ox got injured? One thing I do agree with is that Wijnaldum, Milner and Henderson simply doesn't work and I'm baffled why Klopp seems to think it suddenly will.

I see a vast difference when Wijnaldum or Fabinho plays as our 6 compared to Hendo, but I am curious for the supporters of Hendo as our 6, would he be your first choice #6? And if so, what does Hendo offer that Wijnaldum, Keita or Fabinho can not?

Fabhino hasn't played has he so why even mention him?. Kieta is the one who gives a different dynamic to midfield he is the one going to give us more umph and more goals from midfield .

tosser you have been asked time and time again to prove your ridiculous statements about people claiming he is world class he is clearly not. Another perfect example of winding up on this forum its not even subtle its just pathetic.
A ban would be a blessed relief from your pathetic childish posts . As soon as someone posts anything about Henderson that is negative your like a dog on heat humping the leg of the poster.
If I am being accused of supporting a Liverpool player what a terrible accusation to make of someone.
Your a pathetic twisted little attention seeking WUM.

Walton, you implied he is world class with comparisons to Alonso and Gerrard, basically stating he is like both in one. That was utter tripe. Henderson is nowhere near Gerrard or Alonso, who were world class. Your statement implied it without using those actual words. If I said you had around the same intelligence as a plank of wood, I'd be calling you stupid without saying you are stupid. I already provided evidence in a qoute about your statement Henderson like Alonso and Gerrard in one. Honestly, everyone bar Mags, Scotia and a couple of others are fedup people boasting Hendo up. I didn't even say he's rubbish like some, I said he's not our best option and right now he's the worst in the position he's playing in. That's because we have much more  quality now Gini imoroved and Keita is looking for a place.. Fabinho will really push him when he starts getting games and what about when Ox is back? Your claims about WUM and tosser just show your personality, not just as a fan but as a person. You should be embarrassed.. it's depressing you even support Liverpool because polite fans don't deserve to be associated with people who act like you. I can advise you to calm down before it backfires on you, because from my opinion you're starting to look a bit foolish.

Bit confused, what do you mean Henderson and Milner were terrific together in tandem, was that before or after Ox got injured? One thing I do agree with is that Wijnaldum, Milner and Henderson simply doesn't work and I'm baffled why Klopp seems to think it suddenly will.

Bit of both mate (with and without Ox). Our midfield played well the back end of last season. A lot of this was down to the performances of our front three. With Mo, Bobby and Mane during on all cylinders the requirement for the midfield to be creative is much less (and subsequently we can celebrate the effort and industry they bring every game). It’s when they aren’t quite firing (as has been the case this season) that posters go looking for someone to blame in midfield. Sometimes it’s Milner, sometimes Gini but more often than not it’s Henderson who gets the biggest portion of the blame. Now I would sit Hendo right now, I’m not his biggest fan but play him in a midfield WITH Keita and he will do fine for me. Keita has to be the first name on the sheet.

Bit of both mate (with and without Ox). Our midfield played well the back end of last season. A lot of this was down to the performances of our front three. With Mo, Bobby and Mane during on all cylinders the requirement for the midfield to be creative is much less (and subsequently we can celebrate the effort and industry they bring every game). It’s when they aren’t quite firing (as has been the case this season) that posters go looking for someone to blame in midfield. Sometimes it’s Milner, sometimes Gini but more often than not it’s Henderson who gets the biggest portion of the blame. Now I would sit Hendo right now, I’m not his biggest fan but play him in a midfield WITH Keita and he will do fine for me. Keita has to be the first name on the sheet.

Sorry but I can't agree with you on this one, at the end of last season when we were down to Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum in midfield we lost almost all of our impact and if you recall only just limped into the final of the CL and into 4th place in the league. A lot of that was down to Henderson and Milner who negate each other on the football pitch, mostly down to Henderson in my opinion.

I see a vast difference when Wijnaldum or Fabinho plays as our 6 compared to Hendo, but I am curious for the supporters of Hendo as our 6, would he be your first choice #6? And if so, what does Hendo offer that Wijnaldum, Keita or Fabinho can not?

Mate, Fabinho has played very few minutes of competitive football for us, during which he looked pretty slow and cumbersome with a couple of OK passes.
If you're basing it on pre-season that's your choice, but can I just remind you of all the players who've looked great in pre-season, but then couldn't force their way into the team?
I don't think this will be the case with Fabinho, but it's something to keep in mind.

Bit of both mate (with and without Ox). Our midfield played well the back end of last season. A lot of this was down to the performances of our front three. With Mo, Bobby and Mane during on all cylinders the requirement for the midfield to be creative is much less (and subsequently we can celebrate the effort and industry they bring every game). It’s when they aren’t quite firing (as has been the case this season) that posters go looking for someone to blame in midfield. Sometimes it’s Milner, sometimes Gini but more often than not it’s Henderson who gets the biggest portion of the blame. Now I would sit Hendo right now, I’m not his biggest fan but play him in a midfield WITH Keita and he will do fine for me. Keita has to be the first name on the sheet.

To be honest, last season was a lack of depth. The team got to a stage where it selected itself.. the midfield was a bit lackluster but there was no alternative. Our defence was good but the goalkeeper made them look average... The front 3 carried us more than people give them credit for. I agree with you about Kieta, when he came on against Chelsea it felt like a piece of a puzzle was placed in.

Mate, Fabinho has played very few minutes of competitive football for us, during which he looked pretty slow and cumbersome with a couple of OK passes.
If you're basing it on pre-season that's your choice, but can I just remind you of all the players who've looked great in pre-season, but then couldn't force their way into the team?
I don't think this will be the case with Fabinho, but it's something to keep in mind.

More a case of getting him used to the incredibly complex midfield system Klopp puts in place.
Same for Keita.

You don’t gamble £50M on a player and hope he makes the grade.

Ox last season looked a bit lost the first few games he played.

More a case of getting him used to the incredibly complex midfield system Klopp puts in place.
Same for Keita.

You don’t gamble £50M on a player and hope he makes the grade.

Ox last season looked a bit lost the first few games he played.

I noticed it with Robertson. Klopp doesn't just throw players in. Excellent manager.

More a case of getting him used to the incredibly complex midfield system Klopp puts in place.
Same for Keita.

You don’t gamble £50M on a player and hope he makes the grade.

I don't see the price as an issue.
5 years ago, what now cost £50 m would cost £15-20m.
I've seen many players in that price bracket not quite up to the job, and some real flops as well.

Like I said, I don't see it being the case with Fabinho, but to say he's worth a spot over our established Captain, and Klopps "General" when he's played so few minutes AND looked slow as F**k is stretching it more than a little.

It's based on pre-season against lower league sides where he had loads of time and space, and still got skinned a few times.

He can also come in and play the 8 (ish) as Klopp himself said.
Klopp also said "he is ready now" before the international break, but draw your own conclusions from that.

We've had this before with Henderson and with other players "oh, such and such is being brought in to replace playerX" and it never works out that way.
Fabinho was brought in to replace Can, and he will play the same role, sometimes deep, sometimes further up depending on requirements and rotation.

Your rant is a bit O.T.T for me. It's really about midfield balance for me. If you play Hendo, Gigi and Milner together as a 3 you've got three lads who will run all day, they'll mark, track and tackle and recycle the ball but it's all a bit industrial. There's not much magic in that trio, all three of them are 7/10 players (despite a spike in Milner's form in recent months). Now if you play 2 from those 3 and insert Keita into the line-up suddenly it looks a lot better. You've now got hard work, industry & a platform alongside a player who plays on the turn, can pass a ball, can run with the ball and is always forward thinking.

The reason it gets a bit silly for me in this thread is because Henderson and Wjinaldum can both have the same sort of game ie. a bit average, not doing anything of note but you can guarantee it is Henderson who gets the shoeing whilst Gigi barely gets a mention even if he puts in an invisible performance. People like yourself and Ribs are bemoaning the reactions of others (and I know the defences of Hendo can be a bit over the top as well) but you kinda do the same thing in the opposite direction. It just goes to show what a polarizing player he is.

For me, I like the balance and mobility that a midfield trio of Keita, Gigi and Milner gives us right now and that would be my first choice BUT I can also understand Klopp running with Henderson AND Milner together because the back end of last season they were both superb as a tandem (which surprised me at the time). So it isn't about blindly trusting in Klopp but understanding that he (and LFC) have had success with these lads playing together in midfield together and that includes Henderson.

Keita is the star dust that needs to be sprinkled over our 'Steady Eddie' midfield and i'm fairly certain he will be entrenched as the first name on the midfield team-sheet before long. As for Fabinho, I still think he has a little ways to go and am glad Klopp is giving him time to get up to speed with the English game.   

It probably appears a little OTT but that's only because after watching him perform poorly on Saturday and being very frustrated with him, I come on here and see his supporters defending him once more and it's just annoying. There is no way they can believe he actually had a good game on Saturday so why not just say so? Why not discuss it properly?

I disagree with you that I behave in  the same way as them. I have no problem admitting that henderson has played well.  The problem is, it's quite rare that he does actually play well. Playing well in my eyes is giving a 8/10 type of performance. Henderson very rarely reaches that mark. When he has 'done ok' and given a 6/10, I'm not going to go out my way and praise him. He's the Liverpool captain and doing just ok with an average 6/10 performance isn't good enough. He has to give 8s every single week. The rest of the team are, but he's not.

Look at this season alone. Milner, Wijnaldum and Keita have all given MOTM performances already. Has Henderson? Then refresh your memory. Look back at last season. Can you ever remember henderson being the best player on the pitch? Refresh your memory further. Can you ever remember jordan Henderson being the best player in any game he's EVER played for us? By all means tell me about them and point out these games.

Is there a way to check how many times henderson won the MOTM poll on this forum last season? I'll be surprised if it's one.

His fans flip that and say 'We understand the job he does for the team, it doesn't matter if he's motm'. Sorry, but that's a load of rubbish. There are players all over the world who play and do the job that henderson does and pick up motm's every week. As stated, wijanldum already has himself this season! So far, gini has been excellent in that role and has performed much better than Henderson ever has to be honest. If anybody disagrees with that then I'm really struggling to understand what they're actually watching whenever we play. I understand people have different opinions but that is one that is just mind boggling to me.

I also agree with heimdall that we actually struggled in midfield last season and a lot was down to Henderson. He did play well on some occasions and he played his part in some great team displays, but I always felt we needed to upgrade if we were going to go from fourth place to first place. Klopp seems to feel the same as he spent big on two midfielders. We needed a keeper, somebody to partner VVD and some real quality in the middle of the park. That's all what we were lacking.

I know city had a freak season but we were nowhere near the title, they were miles better than us. If we're being honest, we had such an easy path to Kiev too and city aside, we were favourites against anyone we played. As soon as we came up against Madrid you saw the difference in class. Forget Karius and his blunders for a second, let's be honest here and admit that our midfield was very poor that night and it got bossed off the pitch. Henderson was completely out of his depth and he's got off with it because of the mess Karius made. Now if we rewind a couple of months and go with gini Milner and Keita against madrids midfield then I don't think we'd have been bossed off the pitch at all.

This season so far I've actually felt like we look like champions but I've only felt that way when Henderson hasn't been in the team! The midfield three of gini Milner and Keita have been exceptional in my opinion and I feel that we have gone up a level and we can seriously challenge for the title now. We have gone from a top four team to a team that can win the title now. Obviously Gomez and Alisson have played a big part in that too.

When Henderson has played then it feels a bit like it did last season. That we're still very good, but we're not quite there. That's how it felt against Chelsea on Saturday. Then the short time Keita was on the pitch and henderson left, we went back to looking like the bollocks again.

I agree with you about the balance and that midfield three was always going to struggle against Chelsea. If, for example, Keita played instead of Wijnaldum then perhaps Henderson would have performed better. We will never know. Some players naturally gel and perform better with others though and that seems to be the case with gini Milner and keita. There is a better understanding amongst them there than whenever henderson plays in my opinion. Or certainly there has been so far anyway.

There may be a lot of games coming thick and fast so a bit of rotation is needed, but in our biggest matches then we simply have to start gini Milner and Keita. If we go into the city game with a different three then it could be suicidal. Id be happy to rest a few at Napoli if it meant we had that midfield for city.

To be honest, it see like fans have a vendetta against anyone playing as a defensive midfielder at our club of late, even when the play well. Everyone was happy when it was a deep lying playmaker, but Xabi Alonso's don't come along very often.

Fabhino hasn't played has he so why even mention him?. Kieta is the one who gives a different dynamic to midfield he is the one going to give us more umph and more goals from midfield .

Mate, Fabinho has played very few minutes of competitive football for us, during which he looked pretty slow and cumbersome with a couple of OK passes.
If you're basing it on pre-season that's your choice, but can I just remind you of all the players who've looked great in pre-season, but then couldn't force their way into the team?
I don't think this will be the case with Fabinho, but it's something to keep in mind.

I have added Fabinho to the list because he will most likely be used as our 6, whether first choice or backup.

Having watched Fabinho for Monaco, pre-season and vs Chelsea at home, I have formed an opinion on the player, and he is basically Lucas with legs, or a Busquets. And taking his attributes into account and the type of player he is, I actually think he can offer more than our current #6's.... on paper Whether he will be better than what we have or not remains to be seen though, for all we know, he could be the next Poulsen and be sold in the summer

Final thing to say is that those stats posted by Mag are just utter bollocks. We have looked much better without Henderson in the team this season, end of. In particular, Milner and Wijnaldum have looked very good alongside Keita too. That midfield three have worked really well and gelled nicely.

In the 6 position, we have actually conceded lesser big chances when Wijnaldum has played there, but also, before the Chelsea away game, Wijnaldum had only been dribbled past 2 times in 520 mins, where as Hendo 4 times in 244 mins. I am also sure stats will show we have been stronger in possession too. And get this, we haven't even conceded when Wijnaldum has played as our 6.

Statistically, we are better with Wijnaldum as the 6, but you know, I didn't form my opinion on stats as they can be iffy when not used right, and even when used right, it doesn't paint the whole picture. Personally, I am not a huge fan of them, but I do look at them, not for verification, but more out of curiousity.

I have added Fabinho to the list because he will most likely be used as our 6, whether first choice or backup.

Having watched Fabinho for Monaco, pre-season and vs Chelsea at home, I have formed an opinion on the player, and he is basically Lucas with legs, or a Busquets. And taking his attributes into account and the type of player he is, I actually think he can offer more than our current #6's.... on paper Whether he will be better than what we have or not remains to be seen though, for all we know, he could be the next Poulsen and be sold in the summer

I doubt he'll be a Poulsen, but I'm concerned about his lack of pace, which is pretty much the reason Lucas was moved on.

I still have no idea why people choose to ignore what Klopp has said about the player and the positions he will play (6,8,2), and instead focus solely on the 6 (ish).

I doubt he'll be a Poulsen, but I'm concerned about his lack of pace, which is pretty much the reason Lucas was moved on.

Tbh, what you have probably seen in Fabinho in terms of pace is probably what we're gonna be seeing time and time again, even when match fit, he won't be much quicker, which begs the question, why did Klopp go for the more traditional specialist when he could have gone for someone like a Rabiot, Ndombele etc etc?

I still have no idea why people choose to ignore what Klopp has said about the player and the positions he will play (6,8,2), and instead focus solely on the 6 (ish).

I understand what Klopp said, and I understand Fabinho can play as a 2 or a 6, and probably even an 8 to a lesser degree, but I believe we have other midfield players who are more rounded and athletic than Fabinho and who are more suited playing in the 8 role, and the reason why I think we will see Fabinho play more as a 6 than any other position. Also, I don't think I have ever seen him as an 8, he was always the more defensive player in a midfield 2 at Monaco.

Tbh, what you have probably seen in Fabinho in terms of pace is probably what we're gonna be seeing time and time again, even when match fit, he won't be much quicker, which begs the question, why did Klopp go for the more traditional specialist when he could have gone for someone like a Rabiot, Ndombele etc etc?

Again, I have no idea why you call him a "specialist" when at 24 he has played most of his career at right back, and is a fairly recent conversion to a DM role.
Maybe it's not your intention, but experience on this forum leads me to see this as creating a narrative.

It seems to me that Klopp bought him as a utility player who can fill several roles, but a few posters are trying to convince everyone else that he's Hendersons replacement, and that's simply not the case.
He filled a place in the squad that was open because Can left, and indeed Klopp has pointed out that he can play in the positions that Can did.

I understand what Klopp said, and I understand Fabinho can play as a 2 or a 6, and probably even an 8 to a lesser degree, but I believe we have other midfield players who are more rounded and athletic than Fabinho and who are more suited playing in the 8 role, and the reason why I think we will see Fabinho play more as a 6 than any other position. Also, I don't think I have ever seen him as an 8, he was always the more defensive player in a midfield 2 at Monaco.

Here's klopp's quote;

Klopp added: "He has ability and mentality to play at the highest level in a number of positions. He can play '6', '8' and '2'. This is cool. He is tactically very strong and football smart.

Perhaps we will see most of his appearances at 6 (ish) but I think it ignores Klopps history with players to suggest that because he played mostly as a 6 (ish) in his later games for Monaco, that means he'll automatically do the same here.

AOC played most of his games for Arsenal as a winger, and wing back for example.
After Klopp got him here, he played central attacking midfield.

It's the same as the conception that Can was a DM.
He wasn't.
He played 6,8, and could play FB when needed, as he has for Germany.

In my view he's a like for like replacement for Can, no more, no less.
He may be an upgrade, but we'll have to wait and see on that.

To be honest, it see like fans have a vendetta against anyone playing as a defensive midfielder at our club of late, even when the play well. Everyone was happy when it was a deep lying playmaker, but Xabi Alonso's don't come along very often.

It’s almost like they don’t understand the role!

It’s almost like they don’t understand the role!

This is the most frustrating thing seeing this line posted every single day.

We understand it fine.

It's almost as if some people don't understand that Henderson isn't very good at it or that other players do it much better!

It’s almost like they don’t understand the role!

Yep.
It's not his job to be creative.
It's his job to recycle, cover the CB's and the FB's when they attack, create space for others, get the ball wide and keep possession by dictating and stretching play by drawing opponents onto him, and initiate the press when the opponents are in a particular area.

The creativity in the team comes from the midfielder who is furthest up, the 2 fullbacks and the 2/3 forwards.
I say 2/3 forwards because Klopp a few weeks ago insisted that Mane is not actually a forward, he is a very attacking midfielder.
I was a bit surprised by this until I started paying more attention to his positioning, then the penny dropped.

I doubt he'll be a Poulsen, but I'm concerned about his lack of pace, which is pretty much the reason Lucas was moved on.

I still have no idea why people choose to ignore what Klopp has said about the player and the positions he will play (6,8,2), and instead focus solely on the 6 (ish).

Again, just because he's versatile and can play a number of positions doesn't mean he will. I don't understand why you can't grasp that and why you keep quoting klopp over and over.

Just because Jürgen has said he can play a number of positions doesn't mean he's going too. Do you think he's going to play DM one week, right back the next and then behind the forward the game after that or something? 

James Milner is the most versatile player in the league. So what? He still plays in the same position every week. But if we need him to do a job for us elsewhere then he will do - that's why he's a fantastic squad player to have. That's all what klopp was saying about Fabinho, why can't you understand that?

We signed him from Monaco from the back of a season where he played DM. Whenever he's featured for us that's where he has played too. So again, I've no idea why you keep arguing with posters on that. It's quite clear where klopp intends to play him.

do you have a problem using the English language? is it difficult for you to spell the word "you"

Jesus Christ!!!!

Again, just because he's versatile and can play a number of positions doesn't mean he will. I don't understand why you can't grasp that and why you keep quoting klopp over and over.

Just because Jürgen has said he can play a number of positions doesn't mean he's going too. Do you think he's going to play DM one week, right back the next and then behind the forward the game after that or something? 

James Milner is the most versatile player in the league. So what? He still plays in the same position every week. But if we need him to do a job for us elsewhere then he will do - that's why he's a fantastic squad player to have. That's all what klopp was saying about Fabinho, why can't you understand that?

We signed him from Monaco from the back of a season where he played DM. Whenever he's featured for us that's where he has played too. So again, I've no idea why you keep arguing with posters on that. It's quite clear where klopp intends to play him.

Fabinho was considered one of the best DM's in the world for that one season where they won the league and got close to the finals in CL, and the season after, I believe his stats were up there with the very best DM's, so I can understand why people consider him a specialist or a replacement for Hendo. Even Tuchel (and I am sure many others) considers him to be one of the best in the world.

It’s almost like they don’t understand the role!

I like to think we do tbh. Just like you, Swab and HamannsTheMan , we appreciated and understood what Lucas offered when he played for us, which tells me you guys understand how important the role is, but the difference now is, me and the likes of HTM etc don't rate Hendo the #6 as highly as you guys and are frustrated because we feel we have better , better players that can elevate  us to the next level.