Wages

The problem with time is as we all know it costs a lot of money. Brendan has said it might be 4 years before we are back in the CL. That is £100million lost. Not counting the loss of commercial money.

So while patience is a virtue, sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate. Spend now, get back in the CL and then if we need to take money back out at least they will be doing it from a position of strength....... not weakness.

Well not really. As you said yourself.

Last season we supposedly reduced our wage bill by £500k per week (£25million a year) this year we are supposedly aiming to reduce the wage bill by a further £500k per week (£25million a year).

Whether this is an actual aim of FSG at this point no one really knows, all we know is that at the moment we are heading that way.

Aquilani -  £80k or £125k if you believe it.
Bellamy - £70k
Aurilio  - £40k
Kuyt   -  £80k
Maxi  -  £80k

£100m over 4 years and none of those players was really contributing and would have even less to contribute over the coming years.

Sure it's a question of who we bring in (and I expect more will go) but I get the impression we could easily repeat 2011/12 now and get the wrong players of lower quality.

The fact that we are more patient suggests to me that we may be in the process of improving squad quality. Say what you will but for me Dempsey now is an improvement on Kuyt for example and I suspect Allen may be an improvement on Aquilani etc.

Sometimes its easier to realise the current situation.

I realise the current situation, we've allowed players to leave and players will arrive, its just a normal transfer window.

Until the window shuts with Borini our only signing, there is nothing to be worried about, but you can stress all you want about it, I like my blood pressure as it is.

Well not really. As you said yourself.

£100m over 4 years and none of those players was really contributing and would have even less to contribute over the coming years.

Sure it's a question of who we bring in (and I expect more will go) but I get the impression we could easily repeat 2011/12 now and get the wrong players of lower quality.

The fact that we are more patient suggests to me that we may be in the process of improving squad quality. Say what you will but for me Dempsey now is an improvement on Kuyt for example and I suspect Allen may be an improvement on Aquilani etc.

 I have no problem in us buying better players it's YOU that wants to wait. I am happy to buy the quality replacements we need. Sadly at this moment in time Aquilani, Kuyt, Aurilio, Maxi and most likely Bellamy have gone...... Borini is the only one to come in SO FAR.

Took a while for the Empire to collapse, FSG Nero burned the city down.

Apparently Bellamy's as good as gone now.

No FSG can't claim that achievement but Moores/Parry and Hicks & Gillett can.

You can't build an empire on Bellamy's knees.

I have no problem in us buying better players it's YOU that wants to wait. I am happy to buy the quality replacements we need. Sadly at this moment in time Aquilani, Kuyt, Aurilio, Maxi and most likely Bellamy have gone...... Borini is the only one to come in SO FAR.

I think the question is whether our performance would suffer because those players have gone.

I don't think you dispute the fact their contribution is marginal to non existent.

The fact is that we can't offer CL football and don't have endless funds to entice players at that level now.

I agree that we can improve quality but it is not possible to do that overnight as you seem to suggest. If the right players are available at the right price and wages then I have no doubt we will be in to sign them.

But as has been pointed out for a long time as soon as LFC is mentioned prices go up so we have to be more demanding and learn to walk away from a bad deal until selling clubs learn that we have competence in the market.

That's all.

No FSG can't claim that achievement but Moores/Parry and Hicks & Gillett can.

You can't build an empire on Bellamy's knees.

You can't build an Empire by just cutting costs and without replacing players with better quality one's either. We have finished 7th, 6th and 8th in the last 3 seasons, without an influx of quality replacements we may look back on these as the good years  

 

I have no problem in us buying better players it's YOU that wants to wait. I am happy to buy the quality replacements we need. Sadly at this moment in time Aquilani, Kuyt, Aurilio, Maxi and most likely Bellamy have gone...... Borini is the only one to come in SO FAR.

Then aren't you being slightly previous?

Last post in this thread.

But all I can say is, wait until the transfer window is shut and then assess who we've brought in and how its affected the quality of our squad and the wage bill itself.

If we bring in players that we all feel enhance the quality of the squad even if the wage bill does appear to have been trimmed, I don't think we'll have many complaints.

If the windows shuts and there is no new arrivals and the wage bill has been slashed significantly, then grab our torch and pitchforks and let the internet terrorism begin.

I've got a sneaky feeling the latter won't happen though.

Then aren't you being slightly previous?

No, just trying to give my opinion on a story that appeared in the press regarding a reduction of £500k per week on our wage bill coupled with Brendan saying it may be 4 years before we are back in the CL, coupled with J.Henry saying that CL is not a requirement this season (as it was last season).

When everyone else is downplaying our chances, I would rather look to how we can improve them rather than just sit back in acceptance.

You can't build an Empire by just cutting costs and without replacing players with better quality one's either. We have finished 7th, 6th and 8th in the last 3 seasons, without an influx of quality replacements we may look back on these as the good years  
 

Look if you keep pushing this we're in danger of agreeing.

I completely agree we need to restructure.

We both agree that the money is not there in Chelski Citeh terms.

We both agree the days of paying over the odds for average players and putting them on crazy wages are over.

We both agree we need to improve quality but at reasonable cost.

I think we're at risk of agreeing that if the right targets are not available at the right price we shouldn't buy.

I think we both agree that the list of players who have gone were at best peripheral and of declining utility for a variety of reasons.

I think we both agree that we need to retain key players and those with genuine potential.


This is beginning to really worry me.   

It's hard to believe that Villa could sell Downing, Carew, Young and Friedel and still have a wage bill that high! Surely that figure was before those players left last year.

It's hard to believe that Villa could sell Downing, Carew, Young and Friedel and still have a wage bill that high! Surely that figure was before those players left last year.

I think those would be extracted from the latest available financial statements so they could be historic to a certain degree.

I think those would be extracted from the latest available financial statements so they could be historic to a certain degree.

I think you're right.

Last post in this thread.

But all I can say is, wait until the transfer window is shut and then assess who we've brought in and how its affected the quality of our squad and the wage bill itself.

If we bring in players that we all feel enhance the quality of the squad even if the wage bill does appear to have been trimmed, I don't think we'll have many complaints.

If the windows shuts and there is no new arrivals and the wage bill has been slashed significantly, then grab our torch and pitchforks and let the internet terrorism begin.

I've got a sneaky feeling the latter won't happen though.

So should we not discuss possible signings, possible team formations, possibilities throughout the season....... just sit back and see what happens

I don't think anyone is getting wound up mate, just giving our opinions on the likely outcomes from what we have read. Just like with Aquilani, some thought he was going, others thought he might get another chance. Doesn't mean you were devastated with surprise when he went, or that I knew he would go. Two good guesses is about as much as we really knew or know most of the time.   

Lets be honest the Americans are in it for the money. They are just keeping the club going long enough so they can sell it on for a profit.

Look if you keep pushing this we're in danger of agreeing.

I completely agree we need to restructure.

We both agree that the money is not there in Chelski Citeh terms.

We both agree the days of paying over the odds for average players and putting them on crazy wages are over.

We both agree we need to improve quality but at reasonable cost.

I think we're at risk of agreeing that if the right targets are not available at the right price we shouldn't buy.

I think we both agree that the list of players who have gone were at best peripheral and of declining utility for a variety of reasons.

I think we both agree that we need to retain key players and those with genuine potential.


This is beginning to really worry me.   

Don't worry mate, we don't agree on cost cutting. I believe that we have paid CL wages for less than CL performances, but I believe we should replace the players who didn't perform with players of better quality that will , rather than reduce costs and expectations.

We need to speculate to accumulate. If we want CL FOOTBALL and if we want to be challenging for titles we need to bring in the quality required to do that, squad fillers, journeymen and anyone going cheap won't.

It's hard to believe that Villa could sell Downing, Carew, Young and Friedel and still have a wage bill that high! Surely that figure was before those players left last year.

Cost cutting..... just shows what you can do when you try. 6 TH TO 16TH in two easy seasons.

No, just trying to give my opinion on a story that appeared in the press regarding a reduction of £500k per week on our wage bill coupled with Brendan saying it may be 4 years before we are back in the CL, coupled with J.Henry saying that CL is not a requirement this season (as it was last season).

When everyone else is downplaying our chances, I would rather look to how we can improve them rather than just sit back in acceptance.

Oh I don't do that but last year was different.

Our net spend would have been coupled with an assessment of individual players and a reasonable expectation of where the club would finish. It transpires that the existing management team badly miscalculated in all respects in terms of players and performance and paid the price. I suspect it was they who built expectations and made guarantees in terms of performance which FSG accepted. When they didn't materialise the consequences were inevitable.

I think FSG (and I suspect you and I) have more "reasonable" expectations now based on last year and also the extent of the transition which Brendan is undertaking.

I would expect timescales and objectives to have been agreed with Brendan along with the resources to be placed at his disposal.

If he fails badly over the agreed timescale (which I don't expect) I would expect him to go and I would expect and want FSG to make sure he goes.

I firmly believe in taking decisive action but only once the situation has been analysed and understood and that there is a clear strategy.

I don't think I'm saying anything controvertial.   

Cost cutting..... just shows what you can do when you try. 6 TH TO 16TH in two easy seasons.

Agreed but then I don't see evidence that cost cutting at LFC is the objective of FSG.

You've said as much yourself even on your accelerated model that it's unreasonable to make a final judgement before the closing of the transfer window.

I suspect that your real criterion is squad improvement or at the very least that the squad should not deteriorate until action to improve it can be taken.

I suspect that you would agree that might not be possible immediately to do everything we might want with regard to the squad. Not even before the window closes.

We can only work with the resources that are available now.

Oh I don't do that but last year was different.

Our net spend would have been coupled with an assessment of individual players and a reasonable expectation of where the club would finish. It transpires that the existing management team badly miscalculated in all respects in terms of players and performance and paid the price. I suspect it was they who built expectations and made guarantees in terms of performance which FSG accepted. When they didn't materialise the consequences were inevitable.

I think FSG (and I suspect you and I) have more "reasonable" expectations now based on last year and also the extent of the transition which Brendan is undertaking.

I would expect timescales and objectives to have been agreed with Brendan along with the resources to be placed at his disposal.

If he fails badly over the agreed timescale (which I don't expect) I would expect him to go and I would expect and want FSG to make sure he goes.

I firmly believe in taking decisive action but only once the situation has been analysed and understood and that there is a clear strategy.

I don't think I'm saying anything controvertial.   

No you aren't saying anything controversial, but you are accepting a timescale dictated by whatever resources FSG place at Brendan's disposal rather than attempting to see that while that may be a safe and prudent course of action, it is not necessarily the best or even the most profitable course. CL qualification should be the minimum acceptable to Liverpool fc and we should not sit back while our ambitions and expectations are reduced and diminished as part of some cost cutting exercise. While the top clubs accelerate away from us and mediocrity becomes the norm rather than the exception.

I may not pick up my torch and march, but at least I have stated my wholehearted condemnation of such a policy.
 

No you aren't saying anything controversial, but you are accepting a timescale dictated by whatever resources FSG place at Brendan's disposal rather than attempting to see that while that may be a safe and prudent course of action, it is not necessarily the best or even the most profitable course.

Frankly until I have my breakfast meeting tomorrow morning with John Henry I won't have any idea of the resources, timescale and objectives agreed between FSG and Bendan. Even after our meeting I'll be sworn to secrecy and you still won't be any the wiser.

What's worse is that neither of us will be able to do anything about it unless I fork out that £250m I've got sitting in the school fees account and I've already told Brendan and JH that's for the kids and they're quite ok with that.

CL qualification should be the minimum acceptable to Liverpool fc and we should not sit back while our ambitions and expectations are reduced and diminished.

I've edited the hyperbole but... there goes that sense of entitlement again.

Why should CL qualification be the minimum acceptable?

A couple of years ago it was the title and for some it still is! Are you degrading expectations and runing down the ambitions of the club by only demanding CL qualification?

Will your  demands make any difference? Any at all?

When we have unreasonable, unjustified demands and we act irrationally we are rightly regarded as a trivial and unimportant because we have taken our eye off the ball.

Ultimately aren't you just recognising that we don't have as much money as you'd like us to have?

Until I dip into that schools fund that's the way it's going to be so why pretend it's any different?

It's just pretence.

No, minimum means just that the least possible, our expectations should always be higher,but I am a reasonable man and while I may want and expect a title challenge or even a title win, CL is a reasonable compromise for failure.

As Shankly said “Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor.”

No, my demands will make no difference mate, same as your seeming acceptance of costcutting and mediocrity won't.

When you accept mediocrity,lesser standards, the path to oblivion awaits.

We are football supporters our lot in life is to be trivial and unimportant, the only thing we have is a voice, rarely heard and often ignored but still we voice it (or some of us do).

No I am offering an alternative view to the passive acceptance that all we can do is reduce costs, reduce expectations, lie back and think of England and what could have been ifithadnabinfer......

No mate it is called discussion not pretence, pretence is when you accept without question whatever is offered and pretend you are happy with it.

And as long as we have supporters happy to accept what is given we will get the owners we deserve.