Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership

Great first post and some very enlightening points in there. Welcome and thanks for the insight.

They replaced him with Reus though!

Dortmund sold him on after winning the title. They did not do what Arsenal do often and sell him on before a surge at the title. During this time Dortmund were scouting knowing that teams would come in for their players. Fortunately for them they've managed to stave off interest in Gotze for the time being. Maybe he just was happy staying at a team with good ideas going forward, a team competing and being part of a young and fresh environment.

Kagawa was sold after success, not before it. Arsenal sell all of their top players before successful periods and therefore never quite get there. Kagawa was also replaced by a player who is one of the best young players in Germany and has scored around 1 in 3 for his previous club BM - Im not even going to try and spell it.

I just wonder if he "just found this place and really wants to get involved"
Why he hadn't looked round and posted anything else..

And whereas it's a decent comparison there are elements that just won't tally..

But I'm just a synic as well and not getting into this one..
Had AZ or Rodders etc posted it I would treat it with the respect it deserves and get into my reservations with it.

Anyway.. I'm off to talk about our club.

I came here because I was a member on the official forums but recently its turned into a war zone. Fans turning against the owners constantly and spouting rubbish, fans claiming they are the same as H&G when that couldn't be further from the truth. The errors FSG have made are all errors that can be fixed quite easily in the next year. The errors H&G almost destroyed the club as everyone is aware. Having read the forums for a while before finally joining there seems to be a more mature bunch of members here.

I was kind of expecting the cavalry to arrive PD , i wonder have other sights recieved similiar opening posts  ;)He's some poster to be honest , very eloquent in his manner and very businesslike.

It'd be silly to get paranoid. And even if he was a part of FSG everything he said is absolutely true so there is no arguments against him. Has made a complete mockery of some of the sh*te that has been posted on here the past week.

It'd be silly to get paranoid. And even if he was a part of FSG everything he said is absolutely true so there is no arguments against him. Has made a complete mockery of some of the sh*te that has been posted on here the past week.

Absolutely. But I don't think it's a case of paranoia as much as it is an ignorance of football outside of England. I don't mean ignorance in a bad sense, by the way, but typically fans of the Premier League don't watch too much of the other top leagues in Europe. If they did, they would know about Dortmund's rise, etc.

Hmmm - my ol fella warned me about coloured snow....what was it now...?

Yellow snow I believe. Frank Zappa warned all of us about that.

Yellow snow I believe. Frank Zappa warned all of us about that.

Yep that's the ol fella - its Moon Unit by the way pleased to meet you 

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on a very interesting and equally optimistic initial post.
The good fortune experienced by Dortmunds manager is enviable though not of course a turn of events dictated by circumstance.
Brendan Rodgers is young and not as well known as some, he is faced with a limited budget and a demanding fan base.
 The Prem is like no other league in the world and Dortmund's bit of luck while nothing is impossible, would be the equivalent of winning the lottery at the first time of asking if it were to happen here - how much patience would that involve?

I agree with the general sentiment but there are some notable differences between Dortmund and ourselves you conveniently left out. As of the beginning of this season, LFC was not on the brink of financial collapse. It had made a loss the previous year by writing off H&G's Stadium project. That loss was a sustainable loss, or so they claimed at the time. LFC, unlike Dortmund, also had players in its squad good enough to compete for a top four finish, indeed many of these players (Kuyt, Maxi etc.) where players that had been in the Champion's League for us on a regular basis. These players where allowed to leave. Liverpool's squad needed tweaking, not radically overhauling and most certainly not down sizing to such an extent as it has. You can also see here how, for the most part, Dortmund balanced the books with sales season on season, again, something LFC have not been able to do leaving us with a situation where our most experienced, most talented players left and the least experienced and least talented players remain.

I'm perfectly willing to give the new regime time and the benefit of the doubt to prove themselves but the parallels between Dortmund and ourselves are not as many as you make out. Our biggest problem is that mistakes are constantly being made. FSG making mistakes with its refusal to invest in the team due to an over concern with FFP (sensible investment would lead to CL revenue which would balance the books). Rodgers making mistakes in signing off on a loan before a replacement was found. Rodgers making mistakes in devaluing players by making it clear in the media they don't fit in to his plans, rather than playing his cards close to his chest and allowing clubs to approach us with inquiries without knowing whether the player is for sale or not. Rodgers making mistakes in strengthening our strongest area and neglecting our weakest then taking it for granted it would be done on the final day. Mistakes are being made that should not be being made by a club of our stature and that's the problem with us right now and if we're to move forward in the way Dortmund did, we need these mistakes to come to immediate end.

Comparisons with other clubs with their financial and managerial issues are of no relevance and could be seen as diversionary.
There are no doubt a number of European clubs that are in an approximate situation to our own but plucking the Dortmund success story from the hat implies that we might enjoy success in spite of our owners conduct and not because of it.
As posted mistakes have been made and it could be that BR is error prone because of the owners actions regarding book balancing at any expense resulting in a weakened squad and any ability to realistically strengthen it's numbers.

I came here because I was a member on the official forums but recently its turned into a war zone. Fans turning against the owners constantly and spouting rubbish, fans claiming they are the same as H&G when that couldn't be further from the truth. The errors FSG have made are all errors that can be fixed quite easily in the next year. The errors H&G almost destroyed the club as everyone is aware. Having read the forums for a while before finally joining there seems to be a more mature bunch of members here.

My apologies if i came across synical Purplesnow , it was an excellent post "even though you haven't changed my view on the owners as yet"and you're very welcome to the forum.

Comparisons with other clubs with their financial and managerial issues are of no relevance and could be seen as diversionary.
There are no doubt a number of European clubs that are in an approximate situation to our own but plucking the Dortmund success story from the hat implies that we might enjoy success in spite of our owners conduct and not because of it.

In spite of our previous owners conduct, and because of the platform provided by the current owners.

Whatever their mistakes over the past year or two, they still wrote off the debt didn't they? Some people seem to want the to give up half way through the job, then people would probably criticize them for that too.

I came here because I was a member on the official forums but recently its turned into a war zone. Fans turning against the owners constantly and spouting rubbish, fans claiming they are the same as H&G when that couldn't be further from the truth. The errors FSG have made are all errors that can be fixed quite easily in the next year. The errors H&G almost destroyed the club as everyone is aware. Having read the forums for a while before finally joining there seems to be a more mature bunch of members here.

Welcome la..

Hope that we get to debate on many subjects..

Dortmund sold him on after winning the title. They did not do what Arsenal do often and sell him on before a surge at the title. During this time Dortmund were scouting knowing that teams would come in for their players. Fortunately for them they've managed to stave off interest in Gotze for the time being. Maybe he just was happy staying at a team with good ideas going forward, a team competing and being part of a young and fresh environment.

Kagawa was sold after success, not before it. Arsenal sell all of their top players before successful periods and therefore never quite get there. Kagawa was also replaced by a player who is one of the best young players in Germany and has scored around 1 in 3 for his previous club BM - Im not even going to try and spell it.

Yeah i agree with all that. Reus is possibly better than Kagawa and could have had his pick of German clubs. Dortmund attract players because of their style, and hopefully we can go down that route too.  The same way Swansea are attracting all sorts of players for the way they play, and their current manager. Bielsa's Athletico Bilbao have the same sort of bond with their players, though theirs is an entirely different set up with them limiting themselves to Basque players.

comparing these with H&G is mad

That will be up to them to prove me wrong , and i want to be proven wrong , i'll have no problem apologising if i'm wrong.

That will be up to them to prove me wrong , and i want to be proven wrong , i'll have no problem apologising if i'm wrong.

I think even now you can't compare them. I don't think there is any need for apologies or anything, but i can't see the comparison, other than their nationality.

In spite of our previous owners conduct, and because of the platform provided by the current owners.

Whatever their mistakes over the past year or two, they still wrote off the debt didn't they? Some people seem to want the to give up half way through the job, then people would probably criticize them for that too.

I did post previously regarding everyones gratitude for freeing us of the H&G horror show.
The only criticism I have with FSG is they are not building on the platform they established and LFC are hitting the slippery slope, we need just one injury to our strike force (??) and we're fu**ed.
How far are we from CL standards? How ridiculous does it seem now that KD was sacked because he was failing to reach that standard?
Patience is a virtue but that particular quality is being tried by intransigence and incompetence

Comparisons with other clubs with their financial and managerial issues are of no relevance and could be seen as diversionary.
There are no doubt a number of European clubs that are in an approximate situation to our own but plucking the Dortmund success story from the hat implies that we might enjoy success in spite of our owners conduct and not because of it.

They're also different leagues. If we want to look to comparisons, we should no further than our own history.

How far are we from CL standards? How ridiculous does it seem now that KD was sacked because he was failing to reach that standard?
Patience is a virtue but that particular quality is being tried by intransigence and incompetence

In fairness to the owners the only reason Kenny was put in charge was because of the clamour of the majority of fans. He never fit in to FSG's strategy. Right now the biggest thing FSG have going for them is that they do have a strategy. Whether it will work or not is open to debate at this point. As you said, only time will tell. Unfortunately for us, due to a variety of factors, time is not on our side. What I want to see is sensibly targeted investment, not the current approach of no investment at all.

I agree with the general sentiment but there are some notable differences between Dortmund and ourselves you conveniently left out.

Lifted this part because it is very relevant. If we wanted we could compare our selves to many a team both home and abroad and find similarities with them all. As 5times' has pointed out it's the differences that matter most.

For example Dortmund did not and do not have to compete with many clubs who have wealthy owners, huge revenue streams and vast amounts of Sky T.V. revenue. They have been and  still do operate in an environment of F.F.P. In short: a level playing field. Players are less expensive and playing catch up is easier in that environment.

The Bundesliga already operates in a  Financial Fair Play environment.

  The majority of German clubs break-even and there is political pressure used by the Bundesliga to discourage overspending. Other than Wolfsburg and Levekeusen the clubs operate on a model whereby the fans own 51% of each Bundeliga club.  Consequently, there is no scope for wealthy owners to inject huge funds into buy success - the wealthy benefactor model doesn't operate in Germany.

http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/latest-news/the-bundesliga-a-vision-of-the-premier-league-future-

The business model becomes less important because all teams use the same model. Therefore, in such a set up, the qualities which a good coach can bring to the team are much more important and relevant. If we all understand this, as fans, we will understand that, after recent events, whilst it's nice to read a very timely, optimistic post; the comparisons don't really bear too much scrutiny.

If one really needs to run comparisons; maybe Arsenal will give you more of a nod to where our future lies. Unless the F.A. and all clubs sign up to F.F.P. 

Fans turning against the owners constantly and spouting rubbish

In your opinion Purps.

In most cases you may well be right but in amongst the all always angry, always negative, ill-informed fans you'll read something that maybe holds some truth. It may be easier for you to differentiate between the two on this forum for example. I find it easy to ignore those with a long standing agenda against FSG; those who moan and are negative about every, single, F***ing thing but...

When I read posts, which question recent events, (for e.g.), from intelligent, level-headed, articulate and very experienced Reds (Reds who aren't negative by nature); I sit up and take notice. 

By the way; have you got links to the articles you posted in your first post yet Purps? We wouldn't want anyone believing it was all your own work; would we?

Also bear in mind that clubs around the world will often value their players higher to interest from clubs in the Premiership or the La Liga than they would to clubs from the Bundesliga because they know that's where the money is in international club football. Liverpool shares in this problem because whilst at home we may no longer considered a big club (and let's be realistic here, that is, after 3 years of such dramatic turmoil and poor league finishes, our stock has droppped), internationally we very much are still considered a big name and so internationally, clubs will artificially inflate their player values the moment LFC inquire, something they wouldn't do to Dortmund.

Don't know if anyone's linked to this one yet but here's an article about the Dortmund model. http://whitehouseaddress.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/borussia-dortmund-model-of.html

German teams in general are a good reference. I know some people who want rid of FSG want the club to be fan owned, and i think German clubs have to be at least 50% fan owned so no one can come in and take complete control of the club.

Good model if you ask me.

Even if other clubs don't want to play (financial) fair (play) i'm glad that we do, and further FFP type rules from the Premier League could come in. Self sufficiency and sensible realistic spending should be the way we do things financially even if it means some intransigence.

I did post previously regarding everyones gratitude for freeing us of the H&G horror show.
The only criticism I have with FSG is they are not building on the platform they established and LFC are hitting the slippery slope, we need just one injury to our strike force (??) and we're fu**ed.
How far are we from CL standards? How ridiculous does it seem now that KD was sacked because he was failing to reach that standard?
Patience is a virtue but that particular quality is being tried by intransigence and incompetence

I think the owners have the right strategy, but they're just pissing about a bit when it comes to implement it.

Maybe they should have had the balls to go for their own man from the off, but personally i think the time we had with Dalglish was very important for the club to resettle some club values which had been lost. Now Rodgers has come in he seems to be continuing that and then some.

We feel more like Liverpool now, even if we're not quite on the cusp of winning the league again.

Everyone's gotten so down all of a sudden in this thread

The points raised are excellent ones, but we can't forget that Germany as a footballing country, not just specifically Dortmund, are doing a much better job. The have a serious wealth of talent at every level, and that even includes their women's game. The clubs operate financially sound, and the atmosphere in a lot of the Bundesliga seems excellent. So yeah we can't operate exactly like Dortmund but we can do proportional things here:

- Young, forward thinking manager with deft tatcical knowledge. Already got that with Brendan.

- Pull talent from "lesser" leagues at good prices (Think Lewandowski, Kagawa, Kuba / Assaidi) and don't be snobs about where a player comes from and what they cost

- Don't be afraid of loaning players (Hummels was brought in on loan initially)

- Give youth a legitimate chance (Sahin, Gotze, etc were from the academy)

On top of that, we should really start scouting Germany. Tremendous talent, good prices, and as a leauge it's one of the more similar to the Prem.

This seems to have melted like the snows of last winter :)Anyway iv'e been thinking on this one and have one question , do Dortmund still have the same owners or was there a battle to depose them?

Excellent lead post.

Some would say but then I would say that.

Somehow haven't got round to reading it until now.

Great stuff.

I'd even say worth cross posting if the mods don't get too upset about that sort of thing.